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CBR Live! Archive

Judging (DC's October) Books By Their Covers

DC's October Solicitations are up, so now is as good a time as any for us to make prejudgements based just on the covers (as we all love to make prejudgements, don't we? And DC's covers are at least detailed enough that we CAN make prejudgements based on them!).

Let's begin!
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This is probably the best Andy Kubert cover yet for his Batman run.

Still not great, but pretty close to being good.
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It's been leaning this way for awhile, but it's finally reached it.

Simone Bianchi's covers are just plain ol' boring.
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Very nice Mad Monk cover by Matt Wagner.

Nice juxtaposition.
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Here's what I don't get...

...if the guy is still tied to the chair, exactly how much help is a knife going to be against Batman? He'd still need to cut himself out to DO anything, right? And you'd think Batman would figure out he has a knife by then - so the surprise factor would be ruined.

Unless he isn't ACTUALLY tied, and those ropes are just around his wrists. But if THAT'S the case, then why tie them at ALL? It's not as though Batman can SEE them!

So yeah, good initial idea for a cover, but ultimately, I don't think it makes sense.
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I think this is a good drawing of Selina Kyle by Adam Hughes.

It just isn't a very interesting cover.
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Oh man, I am so happy about Bruce Jones being off of Nightwing that I will live with Jock no longer being the cover artist!

Decent Andy Clarke cover. I hear that Wolfman's run is only an interim one. Say it ain't so!
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I have been digging Patrick Gleason's Robin covers...

...however, I think this one is a bit too busy.
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How worrisome must it be for Invincible fans to see Ryan Ottley working on Superman/Batman Annual? Especially with Ed McGuinness leaving for Marvel.

As for the cover, decent enough layout, but not the most inspired of covers.
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This Pacheco cover for Superman looks to me like an example of where a lot can be done post inks, because I find it hard to believe this will be remotely the final product for this cover.

Nice enough cover, though. Not all that striking (pun intended) of a cover.
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Supergirl joins the Outsiders!

Wait...didn't see already join the Outsiders?

I guess not.

Total colorform cover.

Although, was Supergirl Nightwing or Flamebird in Kandor? Either way, it's a cool matchup with Earth's Nightwing (cooler if she was Flamebird in Kandor).
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Oh no!

Black Adam is in mourning!

Now he might be vengeful!!!

Oh...right....never mind.

And why only one 52 cover?!? Damn you, DC!!!
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Decent enough Butch Guice cover for Aquaman.

I see Karl Kesel listed as co-writing the issue (if it's a back up, the solicit doesn't say). That makes sense, as Busiek is a busy man. It's also nice to see Kesel get some writing work. ___________________________________________________

Very clever Ariel Olivetti cover for the Atom.

VERY clever.

Not the greatest execution, but a totally clever idea.

And a different penciller already? Byrne doesn't do "late," so is it a replacement already?

That's too bad.
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Good Jerry Ordway Birds of Prey cover.

Dramatic without being over-the-top.

I am impressed.
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On the other hand, this was a nice USE of over-the-top by Duncan Rouleau for this Blue Beetle cover.


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I dig the Bronze Tiger.

I really hope Greg Rucka doesn't feel the need to "improve" the character.
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Cool Justiniano cover for Creeper.

A little too non-descript, but still cool.
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Nice, dramatic Brian Stelfreeze cover for Firestorm.


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Ken Lashley has a clever cover idea.

However, he seems to let the little details fall by the wayside. Like the angles of the cameras.
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When't the last time Crimson Fox appeared on a comic book cover? The issue of Starman she died?

Pretty good Ethan Van Sciver cover.
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Is that Radu??! Cool!

Sadly, even Radu can not liven up this Kalman Andrasofszky Ion cover.
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Chaykin's doing covers still, at least!

How funny is it to see Joe Bennett RETURN to Hawkman. It's like Cockrum following Byrne! Well, except that whole "difference of scale" thing.

By the way, if I was Simonson, I would start writing issues just to make Chaykin jealous.

"There is an emergency, so Kendra has to enter a lingerie modeling event!"

"Kendra and some of her girlfriends have a sleepover."

"Kendra is on the trail of a bad guy, but has to go undercover as a prostitute at a brothel to catch him."
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This is such a dorky Green Arrow cover.

It's like a cover of people doing aerobics. Who wants to see heroes exercise on a cover?
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First Shane Moll, now Kilian Plunkett...

...does Tom Nguyen just make EVERYbody look like Doug Mahnke?

Otherwise, cool JLA Classified cover.
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That's a brutal case of "got your nose" on this JSA Classified cover!

Oh?

That's just how Scott McDaniel drew his mask?

Oh, my bad.
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"REPENT, SINNER!"


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Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle.

A cool looking Michael Turner cover.

I guess it helps that it is robot anatomy. And he doesn't have to draw the legs.

It's beginning to make more sense...
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Sorry, Luke Ross.

I just don't dig the portrait cover.
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Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.

Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.

Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.

Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.

Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.

Can't blame Al Barrionuevo for the design.


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I'm enjoying Batt's inks over Shane Davis.

By the by, why MENTION Batt at all if you're not going to CALL him Batt?

What, does DC have a problem just using a dude's work name?

I mean, I get it if it's, like, some established artist suddenly going by a new name, but I think more people know Batt AS Batt!
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That is one wacky ass Next cover.

And The Next IS one wacky ass book.
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Sorry, Daniel Acuña.

NOone can make Grace look interesting.

Man, the Outsiders are lame.

Also, I love "An old foe returns with a new plan as the Outsiders' secret cover crumbles!" Wow. the new status quo sure lasted for a looooooooooooong time, eh?
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I really can't believe Tigorr is still alive. I've been expecting his death for, like, literally seventeen years.

Think of all the impressionable young children from Karna who will think it is "cool" to smoke because of their hero Tigorr!

Tsk tsk, Tigorr.

Tsk, tsk.
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Hey, if Superman can do it in Superman Returns, why can't OMAC do it?

Even if he IS a stupid OMAC robot thing that I hate so very very much.
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I'm really glad this is solicited.

Can't say I love the cover, though.
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Cool Karl Kerschl cover for Secret Six.

However, that's some low tech security system in that bad guy hideout! They have to use sketch artists to depict the intruders coming!
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I love Cory Walker's work.

So this disapointing Shadowpact cover came as quite a surprise to me.
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Pretty cool looking Supergirl and the Legion of Superheroes cover by Barry Kitson.

Oh? An Adam Hughes variant?

Nice sales push, DC. Well done.
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Cool, if generic-looking, cover by Mike Mignola for Tales of the Unexpected.

Seeing David Lapham and Eric Battle working together on a story is a tale of the unexpected to me (just because of their differing styles)!
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Pretty cool looking Howard Porter cover for Trials of Shazam.

I wonder what the finished product will look like.
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Blasts them where she knows their eyes are looking! Clever move, Phantom Lady!


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Pretty cool Warlord cover by Bart Sears.


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Man, Dave McCaig is mean!

He looks like he wants Clayface to kill himself!
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I am sorry Ty Templeton.

I still love you, but not even you can make Black Manta pull off this kind of ominous pose.


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It's pretty cool to see the show creator, Glen Murakami, do a cover.


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What's especially neat about this Scott Jeralds' Krypto cover is how we get to see how he takes into account the UPC code box.

Very interesting.
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Yes, Gene Ha, that IS the Engineer and Midnighter.

I can see that.

Would you like to have them, perhaps, DO something?
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This Carlos D'Anda Deathblow cover is pretty cool.

I don't think it's a great FIRST issue cover, but still, pretty cool.

I loved Deathblow. I think killing him off was such a big mistake.

However, besides the return of Michael Cray, this series features the return of SPLATT!!!

ARE YOU READY!?!??
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That's actually a halfway decent cover by Talent Caldwell.


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I think, perhaps, Caldwell sapped some of Art Adams' goodness.

Because this Worldstorm cover is just dreadful.
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Whilce Portacio is doing pretty nice work with his Wetworks covers.

It's good to see a return to good art from Portacio.
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At first, I thought this The Boys cover was bland.

But now, I think it is JUST interesting enough.
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Garry Leach sure can draw him some planes!

Good stuff on this Battler Britton cover.
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Pretty humdrum Claw cover by Andy Smith.


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It's beginning to look like Tony Harris just draws up a bunch of Ex Machina covers and randomly labels them "#21," "24," "37," etc.

Very nice art, though.
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ANOTHER cool Michael Chang Ninja Scroll cover.


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Nice beginning cover for Danijel Zezelj on his stint on Desolation Jones.


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Man, drawing famous people is RIGHT in Tony Harris' wheelhouse!

And he really knocked it out of the park!

Although I like that there isn't anything really solicited yet for this issue. Always a good sign of quality to come!
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Can't say I'm thrilled with this Manifest Eternity cover.

I DO like the improved color work by Dustin Nguyen.
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Nick Bradshaw gets more and more clear with his art on each successive Rokkin cover.


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Is this a new Dave McKeon piece for Absolute Sandman?

It's quite nice.
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Dramatic Joshua Middleton cover for American Virgin.

I like it.
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WAY too cramped DMZ cover by Brian Wood.


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Nice idea by John Watkiss for this Deadman cover.

I don't think he ultimately pulls it off, though.
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Pretty cool Kent Williams cover for The Fountain SC.


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Great drawing of a fence by James Jean for Jack of Fables.

Behind the fence?

Not so much.
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Pretty run of the mill Testament cover by Liam Sharp.


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Is this a new cover by Massimo Carnevale for the trade?

I like it.
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Massimo Carnevale does a good job on this cover for #50.


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HONORABLE MENTIONS!
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Wow, that's a badass Hansel by James Jean for Fables!


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What a striking cover design by Dave Johnson for 100 Bullets!


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This was such a poor month for covers that I actually considered Tadhg's suggestion of using this Robert Pope cover from Cartoon Network Block Party.

It IS a nice use of having a character work as the border for the drawings.

Man, I mention Tadhg every once in awhile, but he never actually posts on the blog. You folks must think he's, like, a ghost or something.
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Robert Pope actually did ANOTHER cool cover this month, for Scooby Doo!

VERY cool homage cover!
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I don't believe this is the final version of the cover, so it can't be more than an honorable mention, but damn, is Miss Martian cool or what?

It's such a Morrison-esque idea! And Tony Daniel does a good job of drawing her for this Teen Titans cover.
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I love the little touches in this Dave Gibbons' Green Lantern Corps cover.

Like the ring breaking the sword.

Good stuff.
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TOP FIVE!
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5. Jock is incapable of drawing a bad cover.

This Rush City cover is actually not THAT interesting, but in such a weak month, it's an easy top five choice.
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4. Likewise, this Lee Bermejo Hellblazer cover is good, but in a stronger month, wouldn't be close.

Still, a ghost coming from the smoke of his cigarette?

COOLNESS!
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3. Marcelo Frusin has continually done strong work on his Loveless covers. This month is a good time to give him a shout out.

Great, great work.

Sorta reminds me of a Civil War version of those old Mike Zeck G.I. Joe covers! Remember them?
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2. Strong design work by Alex Ross for this Astro City cover.

A striking cover with good character designs, as well.
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1. Tadhg called that I would pick this one as my #1.

He said,

I take it Stewart is getting your award for best cover. Not that his is great, but it's the most striking and well rendered.

Well, he was right.

Except for the "not that his is great" part. I think it IS a great Cam Stewart cover.

You can't have him, Marvel!!!
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Okay, that's it for me, folks!

Feel free to share YOUR prejudices (and YOUR top five)!!

  • Posted on July 18, 2006 @ 03:26 AM

40 Comments

Thoughts:

1) Don't diss colorforms, dude. Those things are like 2-D superhero Legos, mixed with concentrated cool. :)

2) Karl Kesel writing anything is good (although I prefer him on Marvel, where he loves to bring back classic Kirby, as opposed to DC, where he loves to bring back classic Kirby. Um...is it obvious that I think Kirby did better work for Marvel than for DC?) I still think his run on Daredevil was horribly, horribly under-rated, under-publicized, and under-appreciated. (Ditto with his 'Hawk and Dove' run.)

3) Someone seems to have seriously misunderstood the slang term "headlights" in regard to Phantom Lady.

4) My Top 5 (from #5 to #1): Blue Beetle, Legion of Super-Heroes (it's the way Supergirl is wiping the blood off her lip that pushes it up into my top five--she's not doing a standard "I've just defeated the Legion of Super-Heroes!" cover pose, it looks very real), Desolation Jones, Fables, and Secret Six...anyone who can make Doctor Psycho look badass deserves respect and mad props. (Can I just say how much I love the way Gail Simone _writes_ Doctor Psycho? He's freaking hilarious. But still evil.)

moose n squirrel

July 18, 2006 at 5:12 am

"Simone Bianchi’s covers are just plain ol’ boring."

You, sir, are insane.

"is Miss Martian cool or what? It’s such a Morrison-esque idea!"

Okay, I've heard a lot of abuse of the term "Morrisonesque," but this is probably the worst yet. A younger female version of an existing character is a "Morrisonesque" idea? No, that's a DC-esque idea, and it's about as standard a DC idea as you can get going back to at least Supergirl. Is Grant Morrison now getting credit for producing the Silver Age when in fact the Silver Age should be getting credit for producing Grant Morrison?

"Black Adam is in mourning! Now he might be vengeful!!!"

No kidding. Did I miss the point when Black Adam suddenly became cool? To me he was laways the least interesting major Captain Marvel villain, and within the last couple years it seems like somebody decided he was DC's thoroughly lame-ass answer to Doctor Doom.

Hey, when did Ethan Van Sciver turn into Brian Bolland?

"Is this a new Dave McKeon piece for Absolute Sandman?"
It looks like the full version of McKean's artwork for the original TPB of The Doll's House.

(Just checked, and yep, it's the first return on Google image search for "sandman doll's house.")

That Selina Kyle cover looks like Demi Moore from Ghost.

In a leather catsuit.

This may be good to some but it's entrying Greg Land territory for me.

The Astro City cover is a shout-out to this V for Vendetta house ad, right?

I wonder why they're using that old McKean drawing for the cover of the new book. I actually own that edition - it was the first collection and before they decided to make all the covers similar. Strange that they didn't commission a new drawing from McKean.

And it's pretty funny that they're offering Seven Soldiers, since I heard it's coming out in November now. Maybe Morrison will surprise us all and have it ready for October!

I dunno, but I like Brian Wood´s DMZ cover best. Guess I like me some cramped...

I admit, the Turner Red Tornado shot for JLA is not bad. I'm still not sure if I'll be able to buy a book with such awful covers. My collection is currently Michael Turner free, and I aim to keep it that way!

But the Talent (boy, if ever there was a misnamed child...(I'm not the first to make that joke, am I?)) Caldwell cover is awful.

You, sir, are insane.

The Batman on this cover is almost identical to the Batman on the Poison Ivy cover. It's colorform-tasticly reusing the same bits over and over again.

Is Grant Morrison now getting credit for producing the Silver Age when in fact the Silver Age should be getting credit for producing Grant Morrison?

Silver-Age-y characters in 2006 IS Morrison-esque.

I'll admit, Ken, to grading Caldwell on a curve.

For him, that cover is amazing, so it got a "pretty good" from me.

Agree with Jack Fear on Van Sciver's increased movement towards Bolland. I think his always bore some resemblance, but it's much more obvious now.

I don't think that's even an unfinished version of the cover for Superman. Looks more like an interior panel which was lifted at the last minute due to Pacheco not having started work on the actual cover for that issue.

Is it just me, or did Turner's Red Tornado have a certain Bisley quality to it?

I think the real Land-ism for this month is the cover to Teen Titans. That's got to be straight from a CD cover or People magazine or something.

My favorite cover for this month is the Atom. It made me laugh. It's similar to the story in last week's Fables, isn't it?

moose n squirrel

July 18, 2006 at 11:09 am

"Silver-Age-y characters in 2006 IS Morrison-esque."

No, retro-Silver Age is simply retro-Silver Age. If Morrison were nothing more than a nostalgia trip, there wouldn't be much of an appeal to his stuff (or his stuff would read like a less funny version of Dan Slott). The more archetypal Morrison concept is the "wacky! zany!" idea which comes out of left field and is either left as a plot device or simply tossed off quickly to add texture to the world the story's taking place in (the land of golden top hats in Guardian #4, for instance). Even this is hopelessly reductionist, but you certainly can't equate Morrison with the notion of "Hey look! There's a genre convention that would be very common in 1963!"

The full version of the teen titans #40 cover can be found here:
http://www.comicbloc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30170

I dunno...

To me, Miss Martian looks like a Green Sailor Moon.
And wasn't there a Martian Manhunter Wife and Daughter running around in the background shots of Kingdom Come? So, you know... it's not like it's a brand new idea either; right?

1. My favorite cover this month is from the Atom. And I might actually buy it due to lack of Byrne! Hurray!

2. Yes, you are insane re: Bianchi.

3. "Repent, sinner!" Bwahahahahahaha!

4. Who's Radu?

5. Red Tornado looks less like a tornado and more like he walked out of the bathroom with shredded toilet paper *everywhere* instead of just on his shoe.

6. I doubt that's the full Authority cover. And I thought that Desolation Jones image was just a promo or somesuch.

Is Grant Morrison now getting credit for producing the Silver Age when in fact the Silver Age should be getting credit for producing Grant Morrison?

Yeah, I love this site, but sometimes the Morrison kool-aid does get strong around here. ;-)

And Silver-Agey characters in modern times is not a Morrisonesque idea, someone is ALWAYS doing it, whether it's Jim Valentino with 1963, Alan Moore in a lot of his work like Supreme, Jeph Loeb's constant mining of the Silver Age for material...I think that's a reach there, Brian.

moose n squirrel

July 18, 2006 at 2:47 pm

That Mike Mignola cover almost makes "bearded Spectre" work - until I notice he's still got a beard. Damn, somebody needs to fix that. I love the Spectre - he might be my favorite DC character - but he's a very, very visual character. If you can't get him to look right, the story isn't going to work.

Along those same lines, I'd really love to see a Mike Mignola Spectre book. But only after they ditch the damn beard.

So, who *can* I blame for the new Martian Manhunter design?

Because I really, really need a target for my disdain.

I'm with Brian. I can totally see "Miss Manhunter" as a Grant Morrison idea. Just feels like something he'd do, playing around with the dynastic centerpiece model.

An' is it just me or is that cover waaaay better before all the other Titans are added?

Miss Martian? Oh, you mean the green Scrappy Doo?

moose n squirrel

July 18, 2006 at 7:34 pm

I can see it as the type of thing Morrison would come up with, but it's also the type of thing any number of other Silver Age nostalgia-trippers would come up with. It's not necessarily Morrison-esque; it's just retro-Silver Age.

I think the fact that it's jsut so blatant at being retro silver age when his most recent work is Seven Soldiers and All Star Superman, but I'd agree that the term applied shouldn't be morrisonesque, but retro-silver age.

I would argue that Morrison is the only currently working superhero writer where sipping on his kool-aid is justified, with Matt Wagner a possible second and Alan Moore less so with a dearth of recent works and not having as much an impact in the day to day workings of a universe's continuity. I probably shouldn't kickstart an argument over whether Morrison is the best currently working superhero writer, though.

Agreed.

Because who could argue against him?

Michael: So, who *can* I blame for the new Martian Manhunter design?

Because I really, really need a target for my disdain.

Apparently, from what I hear, *Ladronn* designed it. But I believe Barrionuevo toyed with it after that. Also, I can't believe Ladronn could come up with such a bad design.

Peter Hensel said …

I think the fact that it’s jsut so blatant at being retro silver age when his most recent work is Seven Soldiers and All Star Superman, but I’d agree that the term applied shouldn’t be morrisonesque, but retro-silver age.

Doesn't mean anything considering that DC usually has someone doing retro-silver age on some book 52 weeks out of the year. At Marvel wallowing in the silver age is not as frequent, but DC ALWAYS has someone doing retro-silver age all year round. I could argue that Miss Martian came about because of Jeph Loeb's Silver Age nods, especially bringing back Supergirl. Johns brings back Hawk and Dove. I could argue Darwyn Cooke's New Fronteir brought back Silver Age retro. Or Alan Moore's Tom Strong. Infinite Crisis brought back OMACs reimagined. Karl Kesel milked Silver Age DC concepts like crazy when he was writing there, especially on Superboy. Basically, look at any month at DC for the past 10 years and I bet you'll find some Silver-Age retro going on. Like I said, I think it's a reach to call this move specifically Morrisonesque.

Peter Hensel said:

"I’d agree that the term applied shouldn’t be morrisonesque, but retro-silver age."

I think we're in agreement, T., I just feel that the idea of a Miss Martian isn't so retro silver age as revisionist silver age(although that's just arguing semantics at this point), because giving Martian Manhunter a family member drastically alters the character, what with his schtick being the last Martian. The idea isn't specifically Morrisonesque, I just get the vibe that it was from him.

-- The two covers featuring Supergirl reconfirm for me that her costume is just poorly designed, not least of all because no one, including the designer, has ever gotten that frilly skirt hem to look like anything a real person would deliberately wear in public. Seeing Kitson's Supergirl wearing a serious face while that think billows out from her waist is pure comedy.

-- The basic idea behind Miss Martian isn't specifically Morrisonesque; the idea of designing her so that she's also a Sailor Moon reference, however, is exactly the kind of pop syncretism Morrison engineers with characters like Fantomex and the Hyperclan.

-- Bianchi's layouts are quite good, until he swallows them up by adding so many soft shadow effects that the figures actually get lost. I had to look at that one twice before I worked out that the Penguin was on it thanks to the "super deep focus" method. When his covers use color, they're much clearer.

-- Why exactly is the Flash's speed-trail ahead of him on that Justice cover?

-- The color sense on that Rush City cover is exquisite.

I really like the energy to the Blue Beetle cover, too bad the comic never quite seems to caputure that same feel.

Glad to see Karl Kessel back at DC, his 2nd run on Superboy was one of my favorite titles at the time it was running (Super-Kamandi-Boy!). I wonder what he thinks about DC killing off the character he pretty much created... or if he'll be able to find a niche in Didio's DC.

You seem like a nice enough guy Brian but each month your picks just make no sense. Something you dislike in one artist you just LOVE in another.

And Jock CAN draw a bad cover and that? Is a bad cover.

Cronin, we all know you just made Tadhg up. Stop pretending he's real.

Also, why does every fun, cool idea have to be labeled "retro-Silver Age?" Can't it simply be a fun, cool idea?

Good article, as always, Brian.

You seem like a nice enough guy Brian but each month your picks just make no sense. Something you dislike in one artist you just LOVE in another.

Oddly vague complaint. Although I like the nice guy part!

Clobberin Time

July 21, 2006 at 3:45 pm

Gotta agree with that reply from "Darn"... there is no logic to what you like and do not like in a cover.

I wonder iof that Atom cover would have been even better as a 'worm's eye view" with the Atom in the foreground -- the main problem to my admittedly untrained eye seems to be that the Atom figure is too stiffly rendered and too, well...small. Exactly what you need to avoid artistically with a shrinking superhero.

I figure it's always worthwhile to see if a criticism is valid, so I looked back at the now over a YEAR'S worth of these bits I have done, and the "unpredictable" thing just doesn't seem to hold any weight.

How can they not be logical when the same freakin' artists keep showing up in the Top Five?

Constantly, it's Matt Wagner, Frank Quitely, Brian Bolland, Eric Powell, Tommy Lee Edwards, Steve Epting, Jock, Joe Kubert, Simone Bianchi (until he got boring recently, which I specifically point out when I explain why I no longer pick his covers), Ladronn, Stuart Immonen, Mike Allred....the same artists get praise almost every month.

And the same artists get knocked almost every month.

In fact, I think it's so predictable that, as you note this month, Tadhg predicted my number one just based on my expressed tastes.

I'm certainly cool with "You like stupid covers" or "You have bad taste in covers," which is a totally fair opinion to have.

But that it isn't logical?

Just doesn't bear out as a complaint.

Brian, I think the implication to what they're saying is that you're playing favorites; something that you'll criticize in one artist is the exact same thing you'll praise in another if the latter happens to be one of your favorites. So by pointing out that you continually pick the same artists for the top covers every month and the same ones for the bottom ones doesn't actually help your case, it actually hurts it by making it seem that you do indeed choose judge by favorite artists rather than by the actual cover quality.

Not saying I agree with them, just pointing out that your argument didn't help your case.

It does not, unless I am praising artists for things I knock in other artists, or knocking artists for things I praise in other artists.

What artist do I knock for the things I praise Eric Powell for?

What artist do I praise for things I knock Michael Turner for?

What artist do I knock for things I praise Frank Quitely for?

What artist do I praise for things I knock Ian Churchill for?

They don't exist.

If you want to say I like bad art, or whatever, that's cool, or "You're wrong, this cover was good," that's fine. People do that all the time, and I'm cool with it. Different strokes, and all that. But to throw around bullshit statements like a lack of logic?

Well, notice the adjective I used to describe said statements, that will give a hint as to what I think of those complaints.

Personally, I think such accusations aren't really worth anything without specific examples anyway.

There is that, as well.

And please don't think I'm conflating you with the other two fellas, I get that you're just trying to explain their possible position a bit.

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