Comic Book Resources

I think I’ve resigned myself to buying Justice League no matter who’s writing or drawing it. I bought the Jurgens run, and the Dan Vado run, and even sporadically picked up the Gerry Jones run at a time when I wasn’t really buying comics for a few years. I bought those awful Bob Harras issues, I keep reading JLA classified even when it sucks, I buy most of the spinoff miniseries…I just love the idea of all the big DC heroes teaming up. Even when the execution fails, I still like it a little. I’m also willing to slog through some pretty piss-poor Superman comics just because I like the character so much.

Conversely, I have had a really hard time getting into Iron Man. The Layton/Micheline stuff is classic, but I think I appreciate it more than I actually like it. He looks cool posing with the other Avengers, but I have no real love for the character. I tried Busiek’s Iron Man, and while there was nothing wrong with it, I really couldn’t get into it at all. I tried the book again when Ellis was writing it. Cool ideas, good art, but still…meh. I never enjoyed Thor other than Simonson’s run, either. Not sure why.

I don’t like Iron Man because he’s pretty much the antithesis of the archetypal approachable Marvel character: instead of a down-to-earth everyman with everyday problems, Tony Stark is a zillionaire CEO who boinks supermodels all day and gets to joyride in a multi-billion-dollar rocket suit and call it an act of altruism. He’s the Man. How can I not hate him?

This is an interesting post. I think that you are right on the money, Greg, when you say that our preferences are largely determined by our formative years; I think that statement applies to many things besides comics, as well. How many of us remained steady sci-fi fans since we saw Star Wars in ‘77?

I cut my comic teeth on the Claremont/Byrne X-Men and the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, and to this day, my preferences lean toward that type of comic: team books with a balanced mix of action and characterization, and great art. I don’t purchase the books starring either of those teams currently (the X-books have been a mess, in my opinion, for quite some time now), but I still gravitate toward that “type” of comic (I loved the Busiek/Perez Avengers!)

On the other hand, I have absolutely no interest in reading any of the Vertigo titles. I know that many of them are well-written and critically-acclaimed, and that many people enjoy them, but I simply am not “into” the kinds of stories usually presented in those books. If others are into them, more power to them.

In any form of entertainment, people are allowed to like and dislike whatever they choose. Just because we are comic book fans, that doesn’t mean that we are required to like every single comic on the stands, regardless of how well done a certain book might be. It might just not be your kind of book.

I tend to give a series two or three issues to impress me. If not, I can’t afford to waste my money on it. That said- I’ll buy anything that features more than a page of MODOK. I can’t help myself. Same goes for Hellboy.

I don’t really like the Avengers either. I think it’s got something to do with the fact that none of these people really want to be on the team. It’s kind of forced. The Justice League has the feel of a clubhouse where the Avengers seem like the P.T.A. or something.

You can’t judge the Avengers based on the relatively weak Busiek run (which was good in theory, but felt perfunctory). If you want to like the Avengers read the Roy Thomas/John Buscema issues. If those aren’t your cup of tea, THEN you can give up trying.

Actually, I think the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run of Avengers is one of the strongest the title ever had, better than Busiek/Perez, better than Thomas/Buscema. But that’s a tale for another day.

I think we all have comics that just don’t grab us. And some of that is a testament to how truly varied comics are these days.

I’ve never been able to get into Flash, either. I dig the concept, but I don’t feel like it translates well to a static medium and most of the stories feel stale to me. I know other people adore it, though.

I love team books, sometimes beyond reason. (I survived Seagle and Austin on Uncanny X-Men, for god’s sake) Give me my X-Men, my Teen Titans, my Legion! I was an Avengers guy for years and years until Bendis turned into whatever the hell it is now and drove me away. But I never grooved on FF (except the Byrne run); maybe it was a little too much “family” and not enough of a team?

It’s all a matter of taste, I think. And nothing will be universally beloved. You name the book and someone will emerge that hates it. Or loves it beyond reason, probably.

I don’t like the X-men, Wolverine especially, for seperate reasons, but the disdain for one often feeds into disdain for the other. In the former’s case the group is usually THE flagship of soap-opera/angst heavy storylines (to put it mildly) that I’m just not a big fan of, and in the latter’s it’s the whole “look how badass I am” notion (I’m not a fan of The Punisher for similar reasons). I gave away the majority of X-titles I used to have and while what little I’ve read of his run was good, not even Grant Morrison can get me excited about a book with Wolverine in it. There are a few characters on the team that I like, such as The Beast or Storm, but I tend to like them more when they’re not on/in The X-Men (put Hank back on the Avengers dagnabbit!).

And I’m with Moose in regards to Tony Stark. The only times I’ve liked Iron Man wwer when a) Jim Rhodes was in the armor and b) when Busiek was writing the book.

On the flip side, I tend to give Superman, The Legion of Superheroes, Green Lantern (Hal), and the previous Flash alot of rope when it comes (came) to whether I want to drop their books during periods I may not be enjoying as much. I just enjoy the larger than life stuff over the more grounded material, which is what I like about Superman especially and what I also like the Avengers (though not as much as the above concepts listed).

Not that I’m completely averse to “street level” characters. I like Robin, Nightwing, and Daredevil quite a bit when handled in lighter/more devil-may-care vien (like in Karl Kessels’ DD run).

I agree that the Stern/Buscema/Palmer run of Avengers is one of the strongest the title ever had. I just re-read part of this run in a trade paperback and it still holds up well. The Avengers are always a challenge for both the writer and the artists due to the large number of characters that need to be handles, both heroes and villains.

But during his run, Stern seemed to have no problem putting together stories involving teams of heroes, villains and even a fairly large number of “guest stars.” Buscema and Palmer also did a great job handling small personal scenes and large-scale action scenes.

And both the writers and artists did a great job of telling interesting stories that were still easy to follow. When I read many of the team books these days, I sometimes feel like the writers and artists are daring me to try to follow the story they have created.

I personally think that Avengers Under Siege (and not the Kree-Skrull War) is the greatest Avengers storyline I ever read.

I have no loyalty to characters whatsoever. My childhood informed my adult purchases in so far as I only read writers who capture the same sensibilities as the ones I loved as a kid. Simonson’s Thor, the Morlock Massacre era X-Men, Marvel Tales reprints of the Ditko/Lee Spider-Man, Ostrander’s Suicide Squad and Giffen’s JLI were my favorites growing up. I can trace all my favorite titles today to the styles of these five series. I loved Johns’ Flash because I thought it captured the fun of the Marvel Tales reprints. I love JSA because of the awesome team dynamic, a la X-Men. Secret Six and Checkmate are filling in the Suicide Squad gap. X-Factor reminds me of JLI. And, for some reason, MOrrison’s All-Star Superman reminds me of the fun I had reading Thor. Squadron Supreme, Nextwave, JLA, Atom, Birds of Prey, Manhunter and even Teen Titans all remind me of something I loved as a kid even if I didn’t read them as a kid. I think most of my bad comic purchases from my youth were made following a character rather than a style.

I’ve never really got into the Avenger.
Even though I’ve read some of the Busiek/Perez run on
the 2nd volume. Even read the Avenger Forever mini-series (cool art there).

Mostly, I tend to avoid team books where there’s alot
of continuity and lengthy history involved.

If it’s self-contained like the JLA/AVENGER cross-over(you’ve gotta love that one!) and Avenger Forever, then
I don’t mind reading those. Self-contained means less
money and less back-issue hunting.

I don’t like the Avengers, either, and I know why; they have no subgenre, no concept, no reason to exist. They are simply superheroes, and putting them together is called a marketing strategy. Whereas Batman can be about mysteries, Daredevil can be about crime, FF can be about sci-fi exploration… Avengers is just straight superhero. They don’t do anything except get into fights.

I don’t like Spider-Man. I get that comic nerds are supposed to relate to him, but that defeats itself in two contradictory ways: comic nerds don’t want to read about whiny nerds like them, and Spidey ends up coming off more like Archie, with a gaggle of beautiful women chasing after him. Spidey’s villains have always been more interesting than he is.

As a kid, I didn’t follow series or companies or characters– I just bought whatever looked good. This helped me get a better feel for the major universes and introduced me to a lot of concepts. And I have random love for a lot of characters. Elongated Man is my favorite character in all of comics, for instance, and I really can’t tell you why; it’s a mixture of the funny name and the whimsical nature and the ear in the fireplace, I guess. And then I have a random hate for other characters… Iron Man, for example. I tend to not give a crap about overexposed and popular heroes and villains (Joker and Dr. Doom and Magneto *suck*) and I love the shlubs (Stilt-Man = Greatest Marvel villain, no foolin’).

It’s just the mystery of comics.

You should read vertigo, especially Fables books…the art might be Blah at times…but the story will leave an amuzed grin on your facce the whole time…congratualtions you’ve\matured as a reader.

You must be new around here, Jake! I LOVE Fables and wouldn’t call Buckingham’s art “blah” at all. I read a ton of different kinds of comics, but I still like superhero books. Even creator-owned stuff falls into this, as I briefly mentioned. There are some creators I simply don’t care for, with no real reason for it.

Isn’t it funny when someone tries to demonstrate their varied and intelligent comic knowledge by bringing up Vertigo? Especially Fables, which even Wizard knows is good.

It’s like when someone tries to brag about their indie-music cred and asks if you’ve ever heard The Pixies.

…I’ve never heard of the Pixies.

Wait! No! I might have. I have no idea who they are, though. My areas of expertise are pretty much comics and TV/movies. I’m a complete music and sports imbecile.

Claiming knowledge of the Pixies as a marker of indie cred is pretty lame. Everybody knows the Pixies. Except Bill, ’cause he’s a Nazi.

Bill: you’ve probably heard the Pixies before and just don’t know it (it’s their song playing at the end of “Fight Club” while the buildings fall down). Chris at Crisis/Boring Change wrote a decent review of one of Doolittle recently.

Be nice to Jake, people! There’s nothing wrong with talking about Vertigo.

I was “yelled” at by Alex back in the old days of this blog because I said I don’t like the Pixies. Apparently anyone who likes music MUST like Frank’s whiny nasal voice and the screechiness of the guitar.

And Greg Burgas is a super-Nazi. Like Captain Nazi or the Red Skull, I suppose.

Hopefully the Red Skull, unless he’s been punked by Jason Todd lately.

And I believe Jake is responding to res196e7’s comment about not liking Vertigo rather than to Greg or the main article.

With my feet on the air and my head on the clouds, I’ve gotta add that I feel the opposite way about Iron Man; the fact he’s a self-made billionaire who stuffs supermodels, is a super-genius, and flies around in a rocket suit is why I love him. He wanted into the club, so he used his genius and fortune to get in. He doesn’t belong, but yet there he is. Those Layton/Micheline issues are my sacred comics text. Iron Man’s Rogues gallery from that era was just an amazing array of B-List awesomeness - Blizzard, Beetle, Crymson Dynamo, Titanium Man, Stane, Backlash (or was is Blacklash?), Spymaster, Ghost, Stiltman, etc.

Untouchable in my humble opinion.

Yeah I bought Avengers at one point–I like some of the character on ther own–but the team never did it for me.
Including Roy Thomas.

My favorite Avengers issue is the one where Wonder MAn brings them along when he appeared on David Letterman, and Fabian Stancowicz attacked…

Hmmm. What I’d like to see in this discussion — well, actually, it could and probably should be a thread all its own — is a comparison of team books. Specifically, Avengers vs. the Justice League. So you don’t like the Avengers, Greg: But what about JLA? Do you have the same objection? Why or why not?

Brandon Bragg suggests the JLA is superior to the Avengers for teamwork and team spirit; Bill Reed’s comments about the Avengers seems to indicate he’d object to the JLA for the same reason: It was (and still is) a marketing ploy by DC to team up its “world’s greatest superheroes.” Does the League have a larger reason for being?

I figure this is a timely discussion, given the imminent arrival of Justice League of America #1 (due out Wednesday, right?). For my part, I’m a much bigger League fan than Avengers fan. But then again, I’m a much bigger DC boy than a Marvel boy. Still, I’d say Marvel’s suggestion that the Avengers are the world’s greatest superheroes is specious. Or at least it WAS specious for most of their history. The line-up of the New Avengers belies their earlier claim, because the team didn’t until then boast the inclusion of Marvel’s two biggest stars, Spider-Man and Wolverine. And presto! Now the book is huger than ever. (One really wonders if they’ve any thought as to how Civil War mucks that all up.)

As DC found out when Morrison took over JLA on the condition he could have the Big (or at least the Original) Seven: Your flagship hero team should contain your flagship heroes. And let’s face it: Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Scarlet Witch and Hawkeye don’t stack up to Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash and Green Lantern. (Hey, I’m just sayin’.)

But is that all it takes to make a good team book? Star power? Surely not, or the X-Men and Teen Titans wouldn’t have been such breakout hits in the early ’80s when half of the characters were brand-new. So what makes the League better than the Avengers? Or is that a false distinction from the start?

p.s. Although I discovered Comics Should Be Good several months ago (shortly before the move to CBR) and I’ve read it faithfully ever since, I’m still impressed with the level of discourse on these flame-free boards. What a delight to encounter posters who peacefully and intelligently disagree.

Okay, maybe I do have a slight interest in reading Fables; the concept has always intrigued me, yet for some reason, whenever I flip through the trade paperbacks, they just don’t “grab” me (I even like Mark Buckingham’s art!). I don’t know…maybe I should just go ahead and give Fables a try.

Winterteeth, you did a much better job expressing my own point than I did. I guess I do tend to gravitate toward a certain “sensibility” or “style” more so than a certain character or creator.

Daredevil is the title i will always read…..and thankfully, the book has been good (or bloody excellent) throughout the first 6 years of the new millenium….

Avengers is the only team book that i really like though i liked the Mark Gruenarld’s Squadron Supreme books too…

i HATE spin-off heroes….supergirl, superboy, super-dog, she-hulk, hulking, spider-girl, spider-woman, x-23…jeez they are the leazt original characters going and people eat ‘em up. that’ll never make sense to me. to me the most original superheoes are the ones with powers least resembling superman seeing as how he was the first which is why i believe spider-man and wolverine are so popular. flash is just one thing superman can do…wtf?

also hate minor-league x-men, why like dazzler and jubilee (who are the same mutant in different clothes anyway) when all they do is produce light and CYCLOPS is RIGHT THERE! cawahyzees.

i can’t imagine ever stopping ult or amz spidey, x-men continues to dissapoint but good creators like whedon mean i can enjoy a book i want to enjoy that is often given to crap creators cos everyone will buy it anyway. like batman, collected all of hush and dropped it until morrisson kubert and will probably drop it after them.

Bill Reed’s comments about the Avengers seems to indicate he’d object to the JLA for the same reason.

And yet, oddly enough, I’ve found myself enjoying JLA comics. Specifically the Giffen League, which was lovely and human and very funny… and the Morrison League, which is good because, well, it’s Morrison. I’m sure I’d love the Avengers if Grant wrote them, too…

I dunno why. Maybe I’m more receptive to DC…? No clue.

Morrison on Avengers?!?!

Why do you have to torment me, Reed, by making me think of how cool that would be?!?!?!

What Busiek did well was get the Avengers back to basics after the wild 90’s and deliver a solid story while doing it. I agree that it’s not the most exciting run, but it’s good stuff, which occasionally veers into actively excellent (the Ultron story, Avengers Forever).

For me, the title gets really good when Englehart takes over (which seems to be where Busiek got most of his ideas too), and remains top well into the 1980’s.

The Avengers used to be my Buy It Whatever book, but the triple-whammy of Johns, Austen and Bendis has killed it for me. Similarly, I was aa big fan of Amazing Spider-Man, but the aggressive bloating of the line in the late 80’s/90’s drove me away once, and it’s done it again now, aided by the execrable The Udder and the baffling Civil Bore.

And for what it’s worth, I have never been able to understand the fascination with the X-Men. I can certainly appreciate the excellent stories, but the devotion that corner of the Marvel Universe inspires utterly baffles me. But then, I did grow up reading Avengers and ASM, not the Claremont/Byrne books like everyone else apparently did, so maybe the “formative years” theory has something going for it.

As a kid, Thor wasn’t one of my favorite characters but as an old codger I now appreciate the character’s nobility and ability to talk smack in Shakespearean English.

Conversely, I used to think Iron Man was cool and now I can’t stand the character (Probably has something to do with the way he’s being written, a malady that also affected former fave Batman until this year.)

On the irrational side, I’ll always check out a book with Supergirl, the Jessica Drew Spider-Woman or Nova in it.

You nailed down some thoughts lacking verbalization I’ve had floating around for a long time, Greg. I too did not read comics in earnest until adulthood, and what did I start with? Preacher and The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. I have a damn high standard when it comes to my comic storytelling as a result, so it doesn’t take much disatisfaction to drop books nowadays (especially if I find the art subpar, which is more often than I’d like).

Yet I also have characters I’ll follow without fail. Martian Manhunter for one - and yes, I even bought the Austen-penned JLA issue where J’onn was the focus, even after swearing I’d never purchase an Austen-penned issue EVER. I’ve kept up with the JLA even though terrible story arcs and barely any J’onn in them at all. Lately however I’ve dropped both the JLA/JSA Classifieds even though J’onn is in them - they’re simply awful lately, all around.