Comic Book Resources

Yeah, that art has a ghoulish look to it. So we are now firmly bck in early-90’s make everything look like Jim Lee territory? Ick.

Thank you, I feel much more in touch with my inner chipmunk now.

I’d add the horribly drawn out Red Tornado’s ghost scenes. Ultimately, he chose the human body because he’s been wanting one to make his relationship more complete (in his eyes). Shouldn’t take more than a page to tell this, because there’s no more than a page or two of emotion/character moment etc. there.

I don’t mind a book that’s 38 pages of people talking to each other. Bendis and Brubaker can do great books of just people talking and I’m riveted. What bothered me was that it was just dumb conversation. I’ve decided to call Meltzer’s style “fanfic crush” writing. I know Brian hates the “fanfic” criticism, but that’s exactly what Meltzer writers like. His dialogue with Hal was so fawning and overly deferential I thought he was going to eventually offer Hal a handjob. I was also confused as to why Roy was picked over Ollie. Roy is probably the only DC character more guaranteed to lose a fight than Nightwing.

I’m probably one of the only people around here who will admit to really liking Identity Crisis (and I loved Archer’s Quest), but even I was disappointed by this. I hate Ed Benes’ art. And while Identity Crisis and Green Arrow had the benefit of giving us some action to balance out the character interaction, all this was was a talkfest. And I don’t normally dislike that– my favourite comic book for the past four years has been Daredevil– but here I found it unbelievably dull. If Metzler wants to tribute the Satellite era League, then have the League actually *do* something its first issue. That’s what Len Wein or Gerry Conway would have done.

That said, I loved the Red Tornado bits. The character has been largely ignored the past decade and he’s my favourite from the JLA. And I’m actually kind of glad they picked Roy over Ollie as I think the Ollie-as-windbag-conscience bit is getting really old (I would have rather they picked Connor, as I thought it would be a nice reaching out to the Morrison-era JLA, but there you go)

Bri - did you notice the difference between the promo cover you posted and the actual cover. Don MacPherson over at The Fourth Rail noted them in his annotations:

“It’s interesting to note that the final versions of these covers differ from earlier scans released as advance promotion for the series. For example, in an early version, Booster Gold stood where Big Barda can now be found. The Question was in the slot occupied by the Martian Manhunter in the final version. Tempest (formerly known as Aqualad) been replaced by Mr. Terrific, and Karate Kid of the Legion of Super-Heroes has been removed and not replaced. The Red Tornado and the Flash have traded places, and the hooded Green Arrow has replaced Elongated Man. Black Lightning’s spot was original occupied by John Stewart, and BL (sporting his 1970s/1980s look rather than the new design) was instead tucked in behind Captain Atom in the original.

Other changes: Arsenal is now in the Green Arrow’s original position, and Aquaman was originally in the slot occupied by Guy Gardner in the final version; Gardner was originally in the back, beside Mr. Miracle. Batwoman wasn’t in the original; in her slot instead was Animal Man. In the original, Fire wasn’t aflame, and Arsenal stood where Nightwing can now be found. Adam Strange also made an appearance in the original cover art, just in front of Mr. Miracle; he has been replaced by Hourman.”

I wouldn’t have minded a ’standing around and talking’ issue to get things going, but wasn’t that what JLA #0 was all about?
This is not an auspicious start, I’m dreading the upcoming “Roy is not a tool” story and the Red Tornado’s “I want to stay a Real Boy” story.

I do admit, the whole “who do we want at our party?” element kinda bugs me. I dunno, I just envision that any halfway competent superhero would have a standing invitation to be on the team.

It makes sense if the organization has, say, a UN charter, but if it’s just the Big Three deciding they like this guy and not that guy- well, I really don’t like it when the character hierarchy is that apparent.

Bah, the cover seemed stinky enough and now the comic itself seems stinky too, making for a big pile o’ stink. I think I’ll go moan at Meltzer on his Myspace page.

I never realized that Red Tornado is the greatest superhero ever, but thanks to Batman cheerleading for him I am now convinced! I mean, the guy is a ROBOT! He can be back in action in 24 hours says the Dark Knight. Yes, so could the Metal Men, but did you know the Metal Men all lack a sense of humor!? Well, it is true now.

It’s great when a B-list hero gets to shine, but Metzler is going backwards here. The hero should change, not the entire universe.

I’ve got mixed feelings about this title, as the League is my favorite team ever — except for when it’s written poorly, during which times it’s the title that disappoints me more than any other. (Happily, I learned years ago to stop buying it during those times.) But I am intrigued by this depiction of team selection. It’s at least as plausible as the Big Seven uniting to fight a menace, and then standing around chatting on the battlefield: “Hey! That worked out pretty well! Maybe we should do this more often!”

Have we ever seen as much effort going into the story of HOW a particular League comes together? I can’t think of any — with the exception of the much-maligned (and generally rightly so) Detroit League. Yet for all its problems, there was a clear reason behind its formation: Aquaman demanded a full-time commitment from the members, and those who were willing to step up were the ones he got.

Brian, I think some of your criticisms jump the gun here. (In the age of long arcs, that’s an unfortunate occupational hazard in reviewing single issues.) While I don’t have a problem with the so-called Trinity sitting around deciding on a roster (their “we broke it, we’ll fix it” approach makes sense to me), I think you’re spot-on in imagining Dinah and Hal’s possible responses … but look, we’ve got several different threads happening here at once, and the story’s just getting going. GL, BC and Arsenal/Red Arrow/Junkie-Papa Roy weren’t heading to an inaugural meeting of the new League. Dinah and Hal were going to join Kathy on her vigil with Reddy, and Hal ends up inviting Roy along because they were hanging out when Dinah called. When Ollie talks about “getting the band back together,” I figure he’s talking about HIS trinity: Hal, Dinah and himself. We may well still see some interesting reactions to Supes, WW and Batman trying to make all the calls.

And the roster they envision isn’t what they’re getting anyway. They’re saying “yes” to characters that it doesn’t look like they’ll get. Although let’s be honest: After all the drama about the lineup, do we really think the ten characters on the “spoilerific” variant cover are Meltzer’s final ten? I won’t be surprised if there are twists yet to come on the membership front.

Roy’s “graduation” will probably grow out of whatever action comes in this storyline (as will Vixen’s and GL’s involvement. And we didn’t even see Hawkgirl at all in this ish, and she’s supposedly on board). The “color Trinity” — Green Lantern, Black Canary, Red Arrow — are about to step right into the lion’s den if they’re heading to Magnus HQ. They’ll find the decapitated Metal Men; they’ll call Kathy and discover the newly human Reddy … And (hopefully) we’ll get some characterization fireworks over League lineup. Let’s give this arc its full shot before squawking about its “major flaws.” (Remember: The major flaws of Identity Crisis weren’t apparent until its dreadful final issue came out. Altogether now, a chorus of “the serendipitously flamethrower-packing, suddenly mentally unbalanced ex-wife did it!”)

The platypus in me loved this review.

“The platypus in me loved this review.”

The small fluffy bunny in me can appreciate your fondness for this site, and wants a carrot.

Oh, and about the art: I’m NOT an Ed Benes fan. I even dropped Birds of Prey for a while because of his obsession with T&A. Here, in JLA#1, I cringed when we saw Black Canary oh-so-briefly and she was: #1, in heels; #2, standing there with half her ass hanging out (seriously, why are so many female characters clad in thongs?!); #3, in five panels, but only one showed her face. That’s more gratuitous T&A bullshit.

Having said that … I think Sandra Hope’s scritchy-scratchy inking is an improvement over the “cleaner” but cartoony look of his Birds of Prey artwork.

Meanwhile … “The platypus in me loved this review.” LOL. Good stuff, Brian and Lex.

“Forget for a moment the sheer absurdity of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman sitting around and picking the team by themselves.”

Sorry, I can’t get past the absurdity of that idea…especially seeing as how it’s the narrative thread that’s meant to tie the whole issue together. It just screams out “implausible plot device.”

The other thing I can’t get past is that Meltzer gives us one absolutely brilliant page — the exchange between Kathy and Platinum on page five, culminating with Tina’s perfect “How did he make you love him?” — but rather than letting it work, he undercuts the impact by having the pair continue to discuss it for the next several pages. Grant Morrison once said in an interview that comics writers could stand to learn a lot from reading plays, particularly the value of writing lines of dialogue that cut like scalpels. Meltzer actually had such a scalpel in his hand…but through overembellishment, he dulled it into a blunt object.

If Meltzer loves the satellite era, why not recreate it with a few new touches? Some of his choices beyond the old classics are good: I like Black Lightning getting his chance, and Vixen has potential. Roy is a lame choice, though. And with such a large percentage of second stringers, this League is going to be nothing more than yet another derivative version. When are we going to get the real thing? Zatanna’s around; so is a Firestorm. Let’s have Flash, the new Atom, and an Aquaman. Lose Roy, add Ollie. Then we’re cooking.

“The other thing I can’t get past is that Meltzer gives us one absolutely brilliant page — the exchange between Kathy and Platinum on page five, culminating with Tina’s perfect “How did he make you love him?” — but rather than letting it work, he undercuts the impact by having the pair continue to discuss it for the next several pages.”

Yes, well put! My reaction when reading that first page was “Wow, I think someone’s actually making me give a crap about the Red Tornado for the first time, like, *ever*!”

By the end of the book, I was like “Hmm, on second thought, maybe I *still* don’t give a crap about the Red Tornado….”

While the ring-tailed lemur in me loves the idea of a Justice League, the Shaggy DA in me suspected that Metzler would write a mediocre story, and the dung beetle in me thought the story might be bad enough that he could soon be rolling it along in a little ball, which then made the maned three-toed sloth in me just stop caring and take a nap.

But the kid in me appreciates Brian pointing out the absurd dialogue in this issue. And that kid loves the frosted side.

Oh, yeah, one annoyance I had - that color-coding of the narrative captions? Did it look to anybody else like they had the *wrong* colors assigned?

I don’t have the book in front of me, but it took me w while to figure out “Oh, *that* color is for Wonder Woman?” They weren’t the ones I expected.

It’s maybe a cheesy convention, but maybe they should have used the same convention they use in Superman/Batman, where the same convention is well-established? (Or did they, and it’s just the inclusion of WW that threw me off?)

Forget for a moment the sheer absurdity of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman sitting around and picking the team by themselves.

Why is it absurd? Look, these three know that, for whatever reason, they’re the leaders of the superhero population. They saw what happened to the last League; it fell apart. And they’ve just been spending some time thinking about what happened to previous Leagues. Why shouldn’t they decide to start up a new version, and invite who they want? They’re trying to get it right this time. (Whether this is a good way to do that or not is another question.)

And with such a large percentage of second stringers, this League is going to be nothing more than yet another derivative version. When are we going to get the real thing? Zatanna’s around; so is a Firestorm. Let’s have Flash, the new Atom, and an Aquaman. Lose Roy, add Ollie.

Yeah, but these are all second-stringers too. Why not use some of the second-stringers who are perfectly good characters, but who could use some more exposure? Like Roy. Give Roy the right storyline and he’ll be a great character. Why wouldn’t he? And it won’t hurt the League; the JLA has Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. That’s enough star power.

If the Leaguers you were complaining about included the White Feather, Porcupine Pete and the Odd Man, I’d concede your point. But Arsenal and Vixen and Hawkgirl and Black Lightning are all plausible JLAers.

(Which is not to say that this is the membership I would have chosen, or that the book is perfect. I did like it, though.)

“If the Leaguers you were complaining about included the White Feather, Porcupine Pete and the Odd Man, I’d concede your point. But Arsenal and Vixen and Hawkgirl and Black Lightning are all plausible JLAers.”

The Leaguers? No Leaguers. Leaguer. See no point in Roy when Ollie’s around. Didn’t say Black Lightning and Vixen were bad. Like them. Hawkgirl too. I’d just like to see the League fleshed out a little more to more closely resemble the satellite era.

No doubt the team will be shuffled still further in the next issue. I fully expect to see Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Rocket Red and - oh.

….G’nort, anyone?

these three know that, for whatever reason, they’re the leaders of the superhero population

But why are they the “leaders of the superhero population”? We know they are because they’re the most popular characters at DC (okay, Batman and Superman are - I still have no idea what Wonder Woman’s doing there). But the characters in the DCU aren’t looking at the monthly sales for Detective Comics and All-Star Superman, so presumably there needs to be some objective standard by which Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman can be viewed by their peers as “the best.”

Well, what are they “the best” at? They’re not the most powerful: characters like Dr. Fate and the Spectre dwarf whatever Superman can do. They’re not even the most important: each of the Green Lanterns is charged with protecting a huge sector of space, while Superman and Batman spend most of their time obsessing over individual cities. They don’t demonstrate exceptional leadership skills above and beyond those of various non-Big Three characters like J’onn J’onzz or Aquaman - the sovereign of his own freaking country, after all - and in fact the only one of the “Trinity” who could be reasonably called an expert in tactics and strategy has a long and storied history of alienating his friends and teammates. So the notion of these particular three characters sitting down and drawing up the rules of who gets to be in their little club is just plain silly.

Let’s face it, the actual formation of the team is the weakest part of these titles, since the rosters themselves tend to be fairly arbitrary (what does Flash really have to do with the Martian Manhunter? Or Thor with Iron Man, for that matter?). Fortunately, it’s the part we care about the least, since it’s just an excuse to get various characters together and do interesting things with them. That’s why Morrison’s impulse was the right one: dive right in and present the roster as quickly as possible before moving onto the action. By stretching it out as much as possible, Meltzer makes the reader conscious of how silly the setup is - and it doesn’t help that his particular setup looks a lot like spoiled upperclassmen approving pledges at a yuppie frat house.

Alright, here’s my problem with Arsenal. I know what Ollie’s shtick is, and I know what Connor’s deal is, too. But Roy doesn’t have a shtick, other than to run around with a bow and arrow and - get this! - a red suit. As a character, Roy really isn’t about anything. He’s just sort of what Speedy turned into after years of aimless drifting and smack.

Moose -

Wasn’t the reason Morrison jumped right into the roster in JLA #1 due to the fact that there was already a miniseries dedicated to the formation of that league, JLA: Midsummer’s Nightmare? I agree, it is better to jump right into the roster. But there was a miltiple issue set up for the formation of that roster as well, it just took place before Morisson came on.

The Roy/Ollie scene was a disaster, even more because it was very easy to make it work. As long as he is Star City mayor, it’s hard to bought Oliver Queen being on the league, so it would be easy to write a scene were Ollie, dinah and Hal came to Roy and Ollie says something like “after I decline JLA membership, I suggested you to Superman and he liked the idea”. It might even make the fact that Roy Harper be in the league less laughable.

The whole trinity selecting the members was really ridiculous, highlighting the most stupid thing about the Didio DC for me (the way that heroes seen aware that there’s A-list, B-list and so on). It made Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman look like dicks to me. Benes art was awful too.

I like the Red Tornado scenes, and Black Lighting, but other than that pretty weak #1.

But of course there’s an A-list, B-list, etc. There is to us — both to regular comic readers and to the public at large — and there would be even in their fictional world too. Why wouldn’t they be aware of it? Just as we’ve got A-list politicians, movie stars, rock stars, sports stars, there would be A-list spandex-clad heroes too. That’s one way in which DC’s “New Earth” makes sense, having rejiggered the timeline so that Wonder Woman, Superman and Batman were among the first heroes of this era. That helps explain why they’re A-list within their own fantasy world.

T - I had completely forgotten Midsummer’s Nightmare. Even now I have only the vaguest notion what it was about - something with aliens? Whatever it was, it was a pretty bog-standard “random group of characters unites to beat menace, then decides to stay as a team” setup. That really just underscores how incidental the setup is to a book like Justice League.

That’s why Morrison’s impulse was the right one: dive right in and present the roster as quickly as possible before moving onto the action. By stretching it out as much as possible, Meltzer makes the reader conscious of how silly the setup is - and it doesn’t help that his particular setup looks a lot like spoiled upperclassmen approving pledges at a yuppie frat house.

Totally, especially given that Morrison had a mini-series to introduce his team, and the mini-series barely spent any time EITHER on the formation of the team! It was just a “Here are the only heroes who escaped brainwashing - now here are the closest heroes to them” thing.

Bri - did you notice the difference between the promo cover you posted and the actual cover. Don MacPherson over at The Fourth Rail noted them in his annotations:

Yeah, I suppose I should have mentioned that. It WAS fun going through it to see what a particular character’s disappearance might mean.

Brian, I think some of your criticisms jump the gun here.

What an observation! Thank you, Rebis. I think you may be absolutely correct. If so, I would owe Meltzer an apology over that point - well, sort of one. I would owe him one over “Hal and Dinah being okay with it,” but not “Hal and Dinah choosing Roy over Ollie.” But that’s a pretty significant difference!

That helps explain why they’re A-list within their own fantasy world

First of all, neither Superman nor Batman “came first” in current continuity. The “first” superheroes in the DCU were the Justice Society crowd. By the “they were first” standard, Alan Scott is more deserving of A-list status than Superman.

Look, it’s pretty obvious that Superman and Batman are considered “A-list” because they’re the company’s two most popular characters. But there’s nothing within the DC universe itself that justifies Superman and Batman having any special status with respect to their fellow superheroes. They aren’t the most powerful, they aren’t the oldest, they aren’t the most important or influential or the best leaders. They’re just the ones who get read the most.

Now, it’s fine to treat these characters with a tad more deference within the context of a team book to cater to readers who are going to be more interested in Batman and Superman than in Black Canary. But to actually write a storyline that actually depends on the presumed superiority of these characters is just awkward and absurd, because within the context of the story, these guys haven’t earned it, so they just come off as arrogant jerks.

And don’t get me started on Wonder Woman. I realize there’s been a concerted effort on the part of DC for the last several years to boost sales on her book by making her part of “The Big Three” or “The Trinity” or whatever, but there’s absolutely no comparison between her and Superman and Batman, who actually really are popular, and manage to maintain the same basic premise for a few years at a time without being radically revamped.

The little stuffed bull in me says it’s brocolli, and to hell with it.

Rebis, for starters, there’s a big difference between how we as readers perceive the DCU and how someone living inside it would. For example, a local vigilante like Green Arrow would probably be seen as very unimportant hero unless you happen to be from Star City. On the other hand, the Phantom Stranger or Dr. Fate should be seen as big deals. So, this meta-thing were the way readers popularity contest shows in the writing is already pretty dumb. It’s even worse because the concept that DC heroes act like there’s the trinity, then there’s the remaining big 7, then there’s the remaining Satalitte members, then there’s many other gradations of everybody else, is unheroic to say the least. To make most hroes to look at Superman as leader is one thing, he is suppose to have inspirational and leadership qualities, now make everyone be aware of big status system is something else. To give an example, Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman deciding to invite Power Girl makes them look like arrogant jerks. She is a member of JSA which deals with stuff as big as the JLA. It might make some sense to the reader to think “ok, let’s promote PG to the JLA”, but coming from the mouth of the trinity it sounds pretty awful.

I assumed Ollie realized he was a little busy running a city and all.

I assumed Ollie realized he was a little busy running a city and all.

But that wasn’t the case at all. Ollie says, “You’re putting the band back together, aren’t you? Hold on. I’ll get my bow,” to which Hal replies, “Actually, Ollie, I don’t know how to say this, but…you’re not the one we’re here for.”

What Rebis pointed out is that perhaps I was jumping to conclusions by presuming that Hal and Dinah were informed by Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman that they, and Roy, were part of the new League, while perhaps Hal and Dinah decided, on their own accord, to reform the League, with Roy instead of Ollie.

The way I was reading it was worse, but this is also pretty darn bad. “No, Ollie, you can’t be on our team, even though you want to.” I mean - how the heck does THAT make any sense?

I almost get the impression that Meltzer didn’t use Ollie simply because everyone assumed that he was going to.

The only “membership” issues of comics that I like are when the team gets to vote on admitting or kicking out a new member. They’re usually pretty fun, and usually work within the context of the story. But when it comes to actually starting up a new JLA from scratch, it always seems forced and atificial, and we’re all better off if the writer ignores it, Morrison-style. If they try to inject logic into the team selection process, the only model that really makes sense is the JLU approach. What good reason would there be for excluding willing, capable heroes?

Brian,

Actually, I think Hal and Dinah got together to go check on Kathy, Red Tornado’s wife. The “band” is the old Hal-Ollie-Dinah dynamic and they’ve replaced Ollie with Roy.

The problem and the reason why it’s awkward is that the Roy choice is just difference for the sake of difference. And difference for the sake of difference is why these various versions of the JLA end up failing. Morrison understood that. Giffen and DeMatteis understood it too, which is why their League went off in such a purposefully different direction.

To me this is just farting around the edges of the satellite era; instead of farting around, why not just give us an updated version of the satellite League? It’s okay to have a few different characters. Black Lightning and Vixen are cool enough, and they have established ties with the League. But let’s get the other guys in there too. What was all this time and effort spent restoring characters to their supposed “core selves” if you weren’t going to do the same with the Justice League?

Take a look at that cover of Justice Society of America #1. For the most part, every principal character from the original core team is in some way represented, even if by a legacy character. You look at that picture and say “Yep, that’s the Justice Society.” But however much you like individual characters in this current JLA lineup, it’s not the definitive League, it doesn’t closely resemble the definitive League, and it never will.

And eventually, someone like Morrison will come along, and we’ll all say, “Now THAT’s the League. What the hell were those other guys thinking?” And then the cycle will begin again.

I don’t get the criticism comparing the metatextual status of Superman / Batman / Wonder Woman to their DCU perception. Of course these three have the right to establish the League again… they’ve been involved with the League more prominently than most others, they’re respected by the other heroes, and two of them have a history of interacting with the media/average citizens/government. They’ve learned (hopefully) what makes a good team after lots of mis-steps (wasn’t WW leading the League during the dreadful Yazz years?), and they want to re-establish the Justice League “brand” before Guy Gardner decides to go do it.

It’s not a matter of Dr. Fate being more powerful and therefore he should be picking League members… who in the DCU even knows who he is? Your average DCU person - around the globe - knows and loves Superman. He has not been in action since WWII, but his history shows every indication that he is the DCU’s most visible, most respected, most benevolent super-hero. Wonder Woman gets it because she is similarly visible, being the Amazonian Ambassador and all. And Batman gets it because all of the other heroes respect him.

And as others have pointed out, the heroes that these guys seem to be choosing do not match up with the interstitial storylines… so I think you’re definitely jumping the gun in smacking this book down already.

Caveat: I love character pieces like this and roundly hated the Morrison run of All-Action-World-Saving every month.

And as others have pointed out, the heroes that these guys seem to be choosing do not match up with the interstitial storylines… so I think you’re definitely jumping the gun in smacking this book down already.

Again, any gun jumping would only address one of the two major complaints about the Roy inclusion, that Hal and Dinah would be okay with Roy being chosen over Ollie without their input.

The second aspect, namely Hal and Dinah choosing Roy over Ollie, even though Ollie clearly states that he WANTS to go with them, has nothing to do with gun-jumping, and is absurd on the face of it.

“To me this is just farting around the edges of the satellite era; instead of farting around, why not just give us an updated version of the satellite League?”

But that’s exactly what Meltzer is doing. (As far as we know, presuming the list of 10 members everyone’s debating is indeed the final roster.)

First of all, you’ve got

1. Superman
2. Wonder Woman
3. Batman
4. Green Lantern (Hal)

all founding members, together as the JLA even during the Cave days.

Then there’s

5. Black Canary
6. Red Tornado

both longtime members who joined (I believe) before the Satellite Era began and were there up until the Detroit Era (or close to it).

Add

7. Hawkgirl (another Satellite member, though that was a different-continuity version of her)
8. Roy/Red Arrow (and who is he, if not a legacy version of Ollie?!)
9. Vixen (Detroit League, with occasional cameos since (ie, Virtue & Vice))

that leaves

10. Black Lightning

as the outsider. (er, no pun intended.) And even he was asked to join back during the Satellite time, but declined. Anyhow, from one perspective, Lightning’s an odder pick than Roy, who’s clearly inheriting Ollie’s mantle, though some people seem really up in arms about that. I love Ollie (almost) as much as the next guy … but if legacy characters are OK in the JSA, then why not here? Just because Ollie’s still alive?

It’s not like Meltzer’s creating brand-new characters for the League (which is generally the poorest strategy — can you say “Faith”?), and he’s not plucking some D-list Global Guardians from limbo. (Of course, some of the characters who fit those criteria end up being beloved by many and they move up a notch, like Firestorm or Fire.) Vixen and Black Lightning, meanwhile, fit the Zatanna or Elongated Man profile: C-listers with a couple decades’ worth of history behind them who will probably end up being significantly more popular after this.

It honestly does seem a bit weird mostly because Ollie is still around. If the book offered the excuse “Ollie can’t join because he’s running a city” in the text, it would be one thing, but it doesn’t. Trying to present Roy as a superior choice to Ollie makes no sense on the face of it, and I’m not sure Meltzer is the kind of writer who can offer a satisfactory explanation. Honestly, to me, it smacks of editorial interference; like Meltzer asked for Ollie, got turned down by whoever is over Green Lantern, and then just awkwardly stapled Roy into his scripts with some emergency rewriting. Future issues may bear this out, or not. It seems kind of strange this could be the case after all the hype for JLA, though!

Personally I think Roy moving into the League over Ollie could be really interesting and logical as hell if the story properly demonstrated this in some regard, but I’m a bit skeptical that this particular creator is going to write in that direction. Meltzer seems more inclined toward trying to conceal the weaknesses in his stories by pointing the camera away from them, which at least in the superhero genre just seems to make the problems more glaring to me.

Of course these three have the right to establish the League again… they’ve been involved with the League more prominently than most others

“The Big Three” don’t even have as much history with the league as Martian Manhunter does. Hell, I think Aquaman might have as much history with the League as they do.

they’re respected by the other heroes

But should they be at this point? Batman is indirectly responsible for the deaths of a ton of innocent people, including a number of his old Justice League colleagues. Has he ever even formally apologized for, y’know, the whole “superintelligent killer spy satellite” thing? And we’re constantly being told that nobody trusts Wonder Woman after she snapped Max Lord’s head. So again, why these people?

Wonder Woman gets it because she is similarly visible, being the Amazonian Ambassador and all

She’s not the Amazonian Ambassador anymore, since there aren’t any more Amazons to be the Ambassador for. And right now she’s best known for killing somebody on national television.

And Batman gets it because all of the other heroes respect him

Why would that respect not be tempered by the fact that he has a history of being crazy and paranoid and making plans to kill them?

Honest to god, this sort of “subtext as actual text” writing does nothing more than remind me of that fawning description of Hal Jordan in Countdown that inspired Abhay’s “just the tip” line.

I thought of Abhay’s “just the tip” comment many times during this comic.

Oh man, that was the greatest line ever.

The current presumed Leaguers with their debut dates:

Superman Jun 1938
Batman May 1939
Red Tornado Jun 1939 (android Aug 1968)
Green Lantern Jul 1940 (Hal Oct 1959)
Hawkgirl Jun 1941 (Kendra Aug 1999)
Arsenal aka Speedy Nov 1941
Wonder Woman Dec 1941
Black Canary Aug 1947
Black Lightning Apr 1977
Vixen 1981

I just thought this was interesting. This is the current, everything’s-up-to-date modern Justice League, and six (or maybe seven; I remember there was something weird about the timing of Wonder Woman’s debut) of the ten of them have arguably been around since before Pearl Harbor.

Looking at this list, I can’t quibble with DC’s evaluation that, now that someone’s had time to be born, grow up, get a job, get married, have kids, get promoted, send the kids off to university, have grandchildren and prepare for retirement, all since Speedy’s first appearance, maybe it’s not too early to try Roy out in the JLA and see if he works out.

(As for how the storyline is treating the Hal/Ollie/Dinah/Roy relationship, well, I want to see how it plays out before I say yea or nay.)

…read it, didn’t like it. Absolutely LOATHED the panther in me says…stuff. And that’s coming from the small, fuzzy warthog in me.

Christ, I can’t stop saying it.

Internal logic of Roy v. Ollie aside, I think including Roy in the League opens up the door for some great storytelling and characterization. I’ll freely admit that I haven’t read any of the Outsiders run with Arsenal, but his characterization in Devin Grayson’s mini-series a few years ago was great. Roy is:

An adopted son and legacy hero
A recovering drug addict
A single dad
An ex-government agent
A serious ladies’ man

Any one of these things makes him unique in the current League line-up. Throw in his “cool dad or older brother?” relationship with Ollie, which parallels the “hot mom or older brother’s girlfriend?” relationship with Dinah. All of these things are unusual in superhero comics, and he should provide an excellent real-world perspective to the League’s adventures. Which was often Ollie’s role, now that I think about it.

I have no problem with Roy being on the team. Just give me a “Ollie can’t be in the League because he’s too busy being MAYOR of his own city” line.

Not “Okay, I’ll go get my bow” - “Not so fast, loser.”

I enjoyed it. A lot. True, I’m a hopeless fanboy for Superman and Batman, so there’s probably a big part of me that was actively trying to like it; but I honestly thought it was a well-written story, and I’m quite curious to see what happens next.

I also think the idea that you need to be up on decades worth of DC continuity to understand the story is rubbish. A friend of mine read JLA #0 and didn’t have many problems with it, and I think this issue would be even easier. Generally, everything you need to know is explained in-story, and the little references (that aren’t detrimental to understanding the story anyway) that might go over new readers heads might pique their curiousity in back-issues. Remember, DC has quite a strong reprint program at the moment, and are repeatedly emphasising the importance of ‘history’ in the new DCU. I admire Meltzer for the way he was able to incorporate this agenda in an accessible fashion.

It seems to me that, as much as I’m biased in that I want to like the League, there’s an equally strong anti-Meltzer bias factoring into other critical comments. How often do critics complain about a lack of characterisation in their entertainment, and then when Meltzer gives it to them in beautiful spades, suddenly they’re not interested?

And how does it make sense to basically say “well, Morrison didn’t explain why the Big Seven were the Big Seven, but it’s ok because it’s Morrison” and then add to that, “and Meltzer doesn’t explain why the Big Three are the Big Three, and I hate that.” Morrison’s Big Seven used the same arbitrary selection process when they rounded out the roster with Green Arrow, Steel, Huntress etc., Meltzer has simply narrowed down the characters taking part in the decision-making process to those that originally started the League (and broke the League) in new DCU continuity. Makes perfect sense to me.

Great issue; can’t wait for the next one.

And how does it make sense to basically say “well, Morrison didn’t explain why the Big Seven were the Big Seven, but it’s ok because it’s Morrison” and then add to that, “and Meltzer doesn’t explain why the Big Three are the Big Three, and I hate that.”

Meltzer has made a huge big deal out of the selection process itself; it’s apparently going to get dragged out for six issues or something. Within the story Meltzer is trying to write, he needs to establish why Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman have the authority to call the shots like that. He can’t just fall back on “because you like Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman.”

Morrison, on the other hand, started off his series after the team had already come together, and future recruitment happened either off-panel or remarkably quickly. The choices were just as arbitrary - again, in these sorts of teams they always are - but Morrison was smart enough to skip over the selection process itself and get onto the lineup itself as quickly as possible.

This isn’t just a Meltzer vs. Morrison thing; it’s just that Meltzer is dwelling on the weakest possible aspect of this story.

In [slight] defense of Meltzer, in JLA #0 he did establish that under the New Earth retcon, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman founded the original JLA and have been involved in just about every incarnation in some form since (even the Giffen/DeMatteis one it seems, based on a flashback). That is why I think they have the authority to put a new league together.

But the Big Three aren’t really arbitrary decision makers here, moose. Under the continuity established by the previous month’s issue (hardly requiring anyone to have actually read the old Justice League stories) Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman were established as having the most involvement with the League over it’s lifetime. They’re the JLA’s equivalent of Cap, Iron Man and Thor. And at least Meltzer is explaining the selection process in-story and in-title… Morrison, as much as I love his JLA to death, relied on fans reading the Secret Files issues to know why some people were on the team. For that matter, Morrison didn’t lay all his cards down in regards to the team’s roster until at least the twelfth issue, for memory.

Actually, this issue was a lot like JLA #5. Not as good, but honestly, not many comics are. But it was similar in the way that the selection process did happen on-panel, and we were then given the story of Tomorrow Woman on top of that, much like Red Tornado’s story is the focus here.

Look, I’m not saying Meltzer is a better writer than Morrison. He’s not; and I much prefer Morrison. But Meltzer is telling a good story here, IMO, and I think some ‘critics’ are being a little harsh.

I enjoyed the issue, but not as much as I had hoped. Not only did I have trouble figuring out who said what by the color-coded dialogue, I was extremely disappointed that we really didn’t get to see who was in the Justice League.

Power Girl and Mr. Terrific are obviously in the JSA still as we’ve seen them on the promo covers of the book coming this Fall, so are we supposed to get excited over the fact the Big Three have deemed Kara/Karen a member? They don’t even know if she would want to be, it’s just “she’s in.”

That really bugged me. Yes, they helped break up the League, and are now all founding members of the team, but the arrogance of the trinity to just decide by themselves who gets in the new league ticks me off.

I never bought Morrison’s JLA early on because I didn’t like how the Seven were in and anyone who wasn’t god-like in super-hero stature was out. Here, the Big Three are just so full of themselves that they think any hero will be so excited and/or forgiving of them to just remake the League on their own?

I can understand if they feel Roy is worthy, but the fact that Ollie tried to keep the team together after the trinity split, and without any real reason why, they just ignore him.

It would have been nice if they spoke with Ollie and he said that he was a mayor now, but recommends his former sidekick, to Roy’s surprise and honor. It give some sense to the whole thing, and what’s up with Roy suddenly “Red Arrow” on the cover.

I liked Diana’s vote for Supergirl, which actually threw in some continuity that Wonder Woman is close to Kara, for instance, but to say that Vixen “isn’t there yet” is somewhat ridiculous. She’s a veteran member of the Justice League, has served with the Suicide Squad, and is a “Bird of Prey”!

I liked the Red Tornado story, and that he really wants to be human, and gets it, but I dread the probable back to robot-mode in the coming months. However, it is good to see Felix Faust again, though I think it’s time his costume’s a tad updated.

Although overall the way the book was set up, it sort of worked, but I really don’t know if I want to have to be “flipping” back and forth every issue. It wasn’t the worst thing, but it did feel sort of like bad editing in a movie, and it felt like I was reading issue 0 again. Did we need to do that again?

Furthermore, it seems that Donna Troy isn’t Wonder Woman for long if Diana is in the role here. I do not like at all how there’s such lack of continuity in place. How far into “One Year Later” does JLA fall compared to “Wonder Woman”? [I did enjoy reintigrating the “I-Ching” Era back in Diana’s life, and that it was just his code name, not just some poorly thought out sterotype.]

They still have yet to explain how Supergirl is both in the 31st Century and 21st, so how long will this take?

They talk about Carter, but Hawkman isn’t even around right now in “Hawkgirl”, so does that also spoil things over there. Hawkman will be coming back in no time?

They talk about Animal Man as past tense, so does that mean he doesn’t make it back after all in the pages of 52? They also talk about him so fondly, but why, when they don’t seem to care about Fire or anyone. Or, do we get to see them pick out more random pics of heroes for the next few issues? Do they suddenly care more about B-Listers and C-Listers because they feel bad about Ted?

Shouldn’t the new Atom be shown instead of just Ray? Why don’t they mention anything about J’Onn. But then, I guess, we can have more color-coded dialogue about the trinity’s thoughts on their friends or co-heroes.

It’s getting kind of tiresome to pick up a DC Comic and see “The Past”, “Today,” and so on.

I really wish they’d just “steal” Marvel’s “Previously In…” as it would really help –especially a new reader– to not feel so incredibly lost. I have a few friends who are trying to get back into or just into comics, but it’s difficult to give them any DC comic without also having to give them trades and an immense history lesson of everything else. It also doesn’t help, when you’re kind of confused as well!

It was only after reading this review that I realized that Benes’ art did kind of have a Jim Lee thing going on, which is kinda sad, but I think the art is all right. But yeah, if there’s gonna be cheesecake, at least let it be equal. How about we see a word balloon coming out of a male hero’s butt for a change!

Of course, there seemed almost like some sexual tension going on with Roy and Hal; I mean one can totally take “I’ve learned a few things since you’ve been gone” “Why don’t you show me” into another context, so I’ll forgive them this time. heh heh.

But, Hal acts as if he was never around to see Roy as an adult before or is this part of the Neo-New Earth thing?

If the lower row of the cover is indeed the new roster, well, how lame is that. It’s not much different than any other time. Oh, but now Black Lightning can be the lone black man in the group as Hal has to be back and John Stewart can now just be read over in Justice League Unlimited.

Seriously, why couldn’t they just have a mainstream unlimited, and we can have the Seven but also still have lots of other characters in it? Wouldn’t it make sense to have as many people in on board overall? Dispatching heroes to where they’re needed instead of just trying to round up the Super Friends from there own cities and countless subplots for a disaster?

In conclusion, after reading Zero and One, I don’t care about picking up this book. It just seems redundant and too much of DC trying to throw out “cool” at its readers. Big Name Writer and Big Name Artist hasn’t added up to a great book YET, anyway. Oh well, if the quality doesn’t continue to be up to snuff, maybe we’ll actually get the book on the shelves on time!

Can we retire “New Earth” already? The term implies that huge changes have taken place, but the place feels just the same as Old Earth. Any non-ironic use of the term smacks of marketing to me.

If not ‘new Earth’, then what do we call it? Post-Post-Crisis? New Earth works for me, for the time being. I think some sort of term is kinda essential, for the simple reason that some people seem to think that nothing has changed, when in fact enough details (with sizable ripple effects) have been changed to warrant notice. This very title has been a showcase for these changes so far, particularly in regards to the Big Three’s place at the head of the League table.

“Post-Crisis 2,” or “Post-IC.” Honestly, Zero Hour caused more changes to DC continuity than Identity Crisis did, and they didn’t rename the planet after that one.

This very title has been a showcase for these changes so far, particularly in regards to the Big Three’s place at the head of the League table.

What changes? They acted like big shots before and they’re acting like big shots now. The only real difference is that Meltzer is actively dwelling on the fact that they’re big shots. I’ve said before that it was just as arbitrary in any previous lineup, but that lingering over the actual selection process makes the whole story seem stupid. You end up with a dozen pages of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman bickering like fanboys on the DC boards over whether Power Girl is cooler than Supergirl.

The cat in me is curious. On the cover, why does Arsenal have a big R on his belt buckle? Is it for Roy? Did he steal Robin’s belt? Is he going to start calling himself the Red Arrow? Maybe it’s for Arrrrrrrrsenal.

The term implies that huge changes have taken place, but the place feels just the same as Old Earth.

Batman is much more lighthearted now. He was even chuckling in the latest Wonder Woman. His parents killer was caught again. Wonder Woman has been in the game as long as Superman and Batman now and is no longer considered to have started superheroing after Legends. In fact, she’s experienced enough to have been a founding member of the Justice League. So far those are major changes to me. I suspect as the year progresses we’ll learn of more changes.

I enjoyed the issue, though not quite as much as #0.

I also think that, due to the long story arc, we’re just seeing several plot threads being put in place. No, there was no “action” in the traditional sense, but by the end we have two decapitated Metal Men, a stolen android body, some mystery as to that body’s origins, the duping of John (Red Tornado) Smith, Vixen in trouble, and some disappearing super-villains (as explained to Black Lightning).

Do I think it might be arrogant and out-of-place for the Big Three to act as if they own the League? Yep. Is it worth it if some of the people they “invite” call them on their arrogance and sense of entitlement? Yep — if it happens.

I didn’t mind the “animal in me” thought phrasing — it sort of helps those who are unfamiliar with Mari get an idea as to what her powers are and how they work.

I thought the purpose of Hal and Dinah showing up at Ollie’s (and his reaction to their arrival) could have been more clear; I got it on a second reading, but at first I thought that they were part of the League reformation. My guess is that because they both care about Roy, they trying to boost him up a bit. There is line later about how proud Ollie is; I doubt that there’ll be resentment displayed from him.

As far as the art, yes, it seems to be in some sort of Jim Lee tribute style, but there wasn’t much that turned me off.

All in all, though, there was plenty to keep me interested and hopeful that the next issue will ship on time.

Since most of the earlier comments in this thread centered on the accessability of the issue to some mythic “new reader,” I conducted a little experiment. I gave the issue to my wife, who is most definitely NOT a comics fan, and asked her to read it and let me know what she thought. Her comments (paraphrased, since we talked about it 18 hours ago):

1. It took me a while to figure out which narrative boxes corresponded to which characters, and I’m a pretty sharp reader.

2. It was interesting to watch Batman, Superman, & Wonder Woman pick their team, particularly since it looked like they weren’t going to get some of their choices.

3. I want to know what happens next with the Red Tornado-guy, although I wasn’t too sure what Deadguy’s story was, but I suppose that’ll be covered in future issues.

4. I didn’t have a hard time following the story, and am interested enough to read the next issue when you give it to me.

Obviously, this is a statistically insignificant sample, but I thought her comments were interesting. I’m sure I’m missing a few things she said, because it seems like we talked about it for a little while, but as I said, 18 hours have passed, and I’m about to doze off at the keyboard. Make of this what you will.

Moose, #0 made it clear that there have been major changes. Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are somewhat justified in acting like bigshots in New Earth or Post-IC continuity, because, well, they are big shots. #0 established that the Big Three had been calling the shots since the beginning of the League, making them the de facto chairmen. And, honestly, Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman are DC’s Holy Trinity. Few fans would object to that, and even those that would would probably only object to Wonder Woman. It’s interesting that the fans (not you personally, Moose) that complained about DC needing an in-story reason to change continuity are now complaining that there hasn’t been an obvious enough diagetic reason for the new League dynamic.

Look, I’m not about to hunt down any of Meltzer’s novels, but I think he’s telling an engrossing story here. I want to see how the new team comes to be; I want to see what happens to Red Tornado; and I want to know more about the shady mastermind behind it all. Dr Impossible seems pretty cool, too. Personally, this seems like a pretty easy comic to enjoy, which is what I want out of my DC stuff.