Comic Book Resources

I think a better word for what you’re talking about is “storytelling” - better than “packaging” at any rate, which makes me think of chromium covers and shrinkwrapped collectible cards.

I’m not picking this one up - I didn’t like Winick’s handling of Captain Marvel in “First Thunder” - but that premise does sound surprisingly less offensive than I would’ve expected. But Winick is so intent on making Billy Batson “serious,” I can’t possibly see him making it work.

Chromium covers, though, is pretty close to what I’m getting at here.

It’s taking a decent story, and covering it with grime (or chromium, if you will) until it just isn’t appealing any more.

The idea is good - the packaging it is wrapped in is terrible, though.

Why does DC keep sending you these comics? They’re always comics that anyone who reads this blog knows you wouldn’t like. Do they think that if they send it to you free, it would keep you from totally slamming it? Or are they convinced that Johns and Meltzer have improved so much since their previous work that these review copies will knock your socks off and turn your opinion around about them?

It’s because they know Cronin would be a lot nicer than I would be. Of course, I probably couldn’t write a review of this because my brain would have exploded.

They should send me preview copies, I’m full of frothy, fanboy-style rage at the current boobery in the land of DC. I guess my scorn isn’t good enough for them!

…lol.

Didn’t like this one either, its waaaaaaay too up itself and serious for my liking.

“Packaging” seems like a good term here, since it sounds like Winick’s grim-and-grit is just a veneer meant to appeal to current market conditions. Grim and gritty sells (or so Dan DiDio keeps telling us), so it has to be laquered onto every comic, like so much chromium.

On this subject: does anyone else think that the reason Plastic Man failed isn’t because it was a “fun” book, but because people just didn’t like it? I usually like Kyle Baker, but I just wasn’t into his Plastic Man.

Thank you for taking the time to review this - if I’d just read the plot description I’d think “wow, sounds great”. Judging from what you wrote it’s really not my cup of tea though. Who on earth is looking for a “serious” Captain Marvel anyway? The only way I can imagine a grim’n'gritty Captain Marvel working… is if it were played for laughs

The usual thought on the part of PR people is that bad coverage is better than no coverage, and usually bad reviews aren’t taken personally unless you’re dealing with someone who’s… special. This is not to say companies won’t get irked by coverage that strikes them as unfair, but if they think even a negative review from you draws more eyeballs to the product, they’ll send you a preview copy.

(This is how it works in my industry, anyway, and comics has always struck me as pretty similar…)

Why does Judd Winick want to write a character that he clearly does not understand, does not relate to, does not respect and does not like?

I guess he likes the name, the costume and the lightning bolt. He’s thrown out everything else.

“A Captain Marvel you can take seriously” is as pointless as a Muppet movie you can take seriously. It’s supposed to be fun escapist nonsense. “Scrubs” is not “ER” and Shazam is not X-Men. Judd, if you don’t want to write Captain Marvel, don’t write Captain Marvel. But don’t dress up the character you DO want to write in Captain Marvel’s costume and pretend that you’re writing him.

I predict that in the not-too-distant future, this book will be considered about as ill-advised as “Heroes Reborn.” I can’t wait.

Why does Judd Winick want to write Captain Marvel if he doesn’t like him? Honestly, I suspect the answer is as simple as “for the money”.

My other suspicion is that Winick as gotten it into his head that Captain Marvel is an unpopular character that needs “saving”. So, you know, this is his chance to make like Frank Miller on Daredevil and impress everybody by making the character all badass and gritty.

…well, there’s another character ruined in DCs biggest ever revamp. I can’t wait for next year’s summer blockbuster, Infinite Didio: Crisis in multiple plotlines.

Is Plastic Man a dark avenger yet or are we still waiting for that one?

I think Lynxara is on the money. Before Miller got his hands on him, Daredevil was a swashbuckling wisecracker along the lines of Spider-Man. Miller was able to “save” him by turning him into a psychotic version of Batman, and he got critical acclaim. If the character is already psychotic and grim, it’s harder to get recognized for making the character “mature” because someone before you already did it. It’s also why Ralph Dibny’s wife is the best one to get your rape on with if you’re a writer, because the Dibnies are traditionally lighthearted. If Meltzer made one of Batman’s friends get raped and killed, no one would bat an eye because his supporting cast is always getting mutilated. So by that logic, Winick is better off choosing a lighthearted character to make his mark on. Then Meltzer will in turn do his noir gritty update of Sugar and Spike.

Noir gritty update of Sugar and Spike? T., you actually made me laugh out loud. Wasn’t the DC Universe going to be a happier, more pleasant place after Infinite Crisis? Or did I just misread that?

I did actually buy and read the book, and it’s pretty dreadful. I thought perhaps Winick would take a Books of Magic/Harry Potter sort of approach, but no, he’s not going to sully his work with the faintest scrap of whimsy. And has he ever written anything that didn’t include at least a mention (if not a full depiction) of child abduction/abuse/murder? I won’t be back for subsequent issues.

Winick’s going to have to do something about the “Billy Batson” name, though. That just doesn’t convey grim n’ gritty. Will Batson? William Batson? Bill Batson? Billy Bats?

Then Meltzer will in turn do his noir gritty update of Sugar and Spike.

Don’t give him ideas.

“I think Lynxara is on the money. Before Miller got his hands on him, Daredevil was a swashbuckling wisecracker along the lines of Spider-Man. Miller was able to “save” him by turning him into a psychotic version of Batman, and he got critical acclaim.”

Not true, either of you. Daredevil was already plenty dark, starting right after Roy Thomas left. The Gerry Conway, Steve Gerber, and Marv Wolfman written Daredevil’s were all substantially darker in tone than Spider-man, or ANY other Marvel superhero comic.

If it weren’t for the fact that standard reviewing etiquette is to mention if you are reviewing a review copy, I would never mention it.

It seems like the idea is so distracting.

Wasn’t the DC Universe going to be a happier, more pleasant place after Infinite Crisis? Or did I just misread that?

That was an assumption the fans made after reading Infinite Crisis #1 and #2. Didio himself never promised that (although Waid did promise a lighter Batman, which so far DC has delivered). If you notice, by Infinite Crisis #7 Johns and company were right back to full-fledged gore.

Why is that standard reviewing etiquette to mention it’s a review copy? If the content’s the same, don’t bother saying you’re reviewing a copy given to you by a copmany.

Movie reviewers don’t have to mention that they got in for free along with a bunch of industry types (and random college students) at a special screening on a studio lot, nor do TV reviewers have to mention they watched an episode on a DVD player in their office. Sounds like yet another special comic book exception to the rules every other artistic industry plays by.

I’m continually amazed by the fact that this is the guy who wrote ‘The Adventures of Barry Ween, Boy Genius’, in which he displayed such a great ear for young’uns’ dialogue and mindset.
Bring it down hard, indeed.

I thought the flashback was the worst part of the book. Shazam renders aid to a master magician and then shows her up with his magical knowledge. Is that supposed to show us how cool and in control he is? Because to me it read like a Mary Sue scene. I was waiting to get a close-up of Shazam’s suddenly violet eyes and then finish off with Zatanna lusting after him.

And then we get to him alone, where he notes that some fourteenth-level warlocks are doing something that sounds big, and then he sets it aside for later because they’re only fourteenth level.

Is Winick working from the Fanficcer’s Guide to Establishing a Protagonist’s Power and Cool?

Technique 1. Have him help someone the reader knows to be powerful. (”The great magician Zatanna.”) This help should be necessary to solve the powerful figure’s problem. (”Here’s how you kill this beast you’ve never seen before.”)

Technique 2. Have him make the figure in Step 1 look inferior in some meaningful way. (Zatanna: “I’m confused by your incredibly straight-forward explanation of how this creature came to be. The guy reading the comic wasn’t confused, but I am somehow completely baffled.”)

Technique 3. Set something up to sound powerful and serious. Then have your hero remark at the relative triviality of it. (”Fourteenth-level? That can wait.”)

And he does it all of it in a six-page, two-scene chunk of exposition whose only purpose seems to be to tell us that magic has changed and that Shazam has a new place in a new world. Something tells me that doesn’t take a six-page flashback. Given the unending internal monologue when Shazam fights the cultists and the frog, I’m sure Winick could have easily fit in any necessary exposition.

So, I guess I have to disagree about those pages being fun.

Of course, I’m still trying to figure out why Shazam, who can fly, didn’t just follow the kidnappers from above. I guess having someone yell “Speak” and then following it up with “Shazam” was too good an opportunity to pass up. (And by “good”, I mean “fanboyish”.) Then again, this is the same comic where the thugs thought it was important to gag their victims, and then bind their hands in front of their bodies, in case they need to take the gag off for some reason… Or do people only scream for help when their hands are free?

I guess you could say I didn’t like the book.

Given the unending internal monologue

I haven’t read the book yet, but wait…are you saying there’s a DC book with unending internal monologue? Shocker!

Seriously though, do DC writers get paid by the word? Why does everyone there want to write like the love child of Frank Miller and Chris Claremont?

Why is that standard reviewing etiquette to mention it’s a review copy? If the content’s the same, don’t bother saying you’re reviewing a copy given to you by a copmany.

Movie reviewers don’t have to mention that they got in for free along with a bunch of industry types (and random college students) at a special screening on a studio lot, nor do TV reviewers have to mention they watched an episode on a DVD player in their office. Sounds like yet another special comic book exception to the rules every other artistic industry plays by.

At least in New York (which I think is fairly representative of general procedure), TV critics DO say when they are reviewing an advance DVD.

Every movie that movie critics go to see is free, so there’s no point in mentioning it. Now, if they paid for most of them, but the companies occasionally sent them to free screenings - I think that’s something they’d mention.

That being said, like I said before, I don’t like mentioning it - so if you think I shouldn’t, that’s good enough for me! No more mentions that the copy is a review copy for me!!

I don’t personally think its a big deal - in fact, i think its MORE entertaining if a comic company sent you something free to review, only to have you smack it down because it sucked AND mention that you got it free. power to the people and all that.

“I’m continually amazed by the fact that this is the guy who wrote ‘The Adventures of Barry Ween, Boy Genius’, in which he displayed such a great ear for young’uns’ dialogue and mindset.
Bring it down hard, indeed. ”

It’s interesting, really; as soon as Winick put Barry on the back-burner, he started sucking.

Let Barry out again, Judd. He seems to exorcise some demons for you.

I hate to take the side of the obviously despised editorial staff at DC here but Didio has made it clear he is only interested in publishing concepts that people will actually buy. He has long considered Captain Marvel a “broken” character because, and this is important, no one buys Cap’s comics when he is goofy and silly and fun. While we are a nice, vocal minority; there aren’t enough people out there buying Shazam comics that are light-hearted to justify keeping the character that way. Winick has been asked to make Shazam work in the DC universe as a viable concept. I would argue that the only reason this is even being produced is because of the success of First Thunder and the 3-parter with Eclipso that WInnick wrote for all the Superman titles. If you don’t like a darker Captain Marvel, support the Jeff Smith Shazam series when it comes out. The only way DC will make changes is if we speak with our wallets. Is it better to not use the character at all or to try and make him commercially appealing?

By the way, did everyone like the Talking Tawny appearance in 52 last week?

Winterteeth,

Here’s the problem…did the previous lighthearted Captain Marvel comics (I didn’t read them, so I don’t know how lighthearted they actually were) not sell because they were lighthearted or because they weren’t that good? Because I’m betting Jeff Smith’s Monster Society of Evil book with Captain Marvel will be lighthearted AND sell if Smith delivers a quality book.

Nextwave is pretty fun and has some whimsy, even if it isn’t for kids, and it seems to be doing well….

Fun fact!

If you take a sharpie and black out every bit of Billy’s narration. (and I mean every. single. bit). It’s not a bad comic afterwards. Try it at home!

R. Nav -

It also works for Meltzer, Gail Simone, Jeph Loeb and most of the ClareMiller writers over at DC.

T.,

The problem is the light-hearted Cap Marvel sold in the 1940s and 50s but, since then, no attempt to bring the “Marvel Universe” into the DCU has met with success. You have talking animals and wacky uncles and other tropes that don’t work in a post-Watchmen setting. I believe DC is basing their assessment of Cap’s viability on the performance of such “kid friendly” fare as the aforementioned Plastic Man and their Cartoon Network line. The concept of Captain Marvel is a great one for children (as it is the ultimate wish-fulfillment story). I believe DC is buying into the (I believe) false dichotomy that they either have to publish a kid-friendly Captain Marvel that won’t sell or “sexy him up” so he will sell to the more adult market. Every single comic I have read with Captain Marvel since he was brought into the DCU has been slanted toward making him a magical Superman clone. I don’t know if DC has truly tried to make a “back to basics” Shazam story in the past 20 years (I would argue the Power of Shazam was more new school than old school).
The closest I think anyone has come to capturing what appeals to fanboys about Captain Marvel is Giffen’s JLI work. Even Johns’ JSA stories (as much as I love em) gave Cap a “Flash thinks I’m a pedo” subplot that was just creepy. Based on which writer is spearheading DC’s direction and which work is being dismantled one dead hero at a time, I think Winick’s Marvel is here to stay.

Judd’s never impressed me with his mainstream work (Ok, I liked Exiles. He’s certainly never impressed me with his DC work). He just doesn’t understand characters. He can’t write Roy, Dick, or a number of other characters who I’d refer to by first name basis.

What did impress me was Ordway’s Power of Shazam though, which was light, and fun, and good, and I suppose didn’t sell all that much (though it did make it to around issue 50 after the bubble burst which is impressive in my mind).

In the end the thing that I hate most in comics is the idea that something has to be adult/rated R to be mature. Ideas can be far more mature than grim and grit and shock.

I’d say look at what Johns did with Black Adam over in JSA, asking tough questions and generally having a point, but they did just have him rip someone apart, to get over how badass he is, so who knows.

The closest I think anyone has come to capturing what appeals to fanboys about Captain Marvel is Giffen’s JLI work.

I strongly disagree. I must say, I like lighthearted Cap and even I must say that it was one of the worst interpretations of Cap I ever read, it totally missed the point even more than Winick in my opinion. It presented Cap with the mentality and naivete of a child that was pretending to be a grown man and coming off like a chump, a similar take that JLU cartoon took. That’s as far from the classic Cap concept as you can get. Cap has the wisdom of Solomon, and if you know anything about the real Solomon you know he would not be a juvenile, gullible naive childlike chump. Erik Larsen has a great column about Cap Marvel misinterpretations, but the basic premise was that Cap and Billy actually switched places, and Cap had the mind of a very smart and wise adult that commanded respect. Seeing Guy Gardner treat him like a gullible dweeb and have Cap get all insecure with hurt feelings was really wack.

My take on the Captain Marvel/Billy dynamic is that yes, it’s still Billy’s mind “running” Captain Marvel - i.e., they’re not separate personalities - and yes, the Captain Marvel persona he adopts is basically Billy pretending to be an adult. But he’s not just a kid playing pretend: he’s a kid given all the wisdom that normally comes with adulthood (in fact, wisdom of Solomonic proportions), but he has all of that wisdom without any of the corresponding cynicism or corruption that comes with age and experience. Captain Marvel isn’t a sucker; he’s an idealized version of adulthood as perceived by an idealistic and innocent childhood. This is why Shazam gives his power to a kid, and not a grown man like Black Adam who just abuses it to become a power-hungry tyrant.

Has anyone heard anything about Jeff Smith’s Captain Marvel/Monster Society mini that’s been in the works for basically forever?

And given my take on the character, I agree with T. that Giffen and DeMatteis got it wrong on Captain Marvel (and in the process set a bad precedent of making Marvel just look like a naive dope).

I have always seen Captain Marvel as, like moose n’ squirrel said, Billy pretending to be grown-up. He has access to the wisdom of Solomon but that doesn’t mean he listens to it. What I liked about the JLI version was the essence of the childlike innocence (although, granted, taken to an extreme) and the pure goodness he stood for. Moreso than Superman even, Marvel was portrayed as believing in the good in people. I saw his relationship with Guy as that of the little brother who wanted his “too cool for school” older brother to like him. When Gardner makes fun of Cap, its Billy’s feelings that are hurt despite however much wisdom he has. If Captain Marvel is meant to be the personification of “a regular teen getting to amazing things,” I thought Giffen captured that characterization well. I think its when you start claiming he always acts with wisdom that you make him a Superman clone. If he is just a smart, strong, fast superhero what sets him apart from Superman?

Winter, he can be more optimistic than Superman without being an outright punk. If a jerk like Guy gardner can razz him, he’s downright fragile as far as personality goes.

Anyway, here’s an article where Erik Larsen makes a good case for Billy and Captain Marvel being two different people. Some of his examples are pretty convincing. Especially the fact that whenever someone else was depicted getting hit by the lightning, they would turn into Captain Marvel, who would retain his same personality, not the personality of the person who was struck!

I agree that now Cap is depicted as Billy playing grown-up, but that’s a retcon.

I agree that it used to be the case that Billy and Captain Marvel were more or less separate people, but I really like my version of it better. It pretty much gets us to the characterization of Captain Marvel we used to see pre-Crisis, but it lends itself to more interesting stories because it makes him even more the prototypical superhero than he is now. The whole notion of the superhero is one based on an idealized version of adulthood as seen through a child’s eyes (as the genre’s formative years took place while superheroes were still being written for children), and the Billy-as-Marvel version fits that description. It seems logical to me to just square the circle and say that the competent-yet-sunny version of Captain Marvel we used to see is still Billy - he’s just what you get when you add the wisdom and the courage and everything else.

T.,

I see your point and you are probably very right about Cap and Billy being separate folks. I think m’n’s and I are on the same page with the idea of Cap being an idealized Billy as a more compelling interpretation. In that regard, I enjoy Cap being written like Peter Parker with Superman’s powers rather just Superman with Superman’s powers. I know it seems to be splitting a very fine line but that is the only reading that makes the character feel compelling to me personally. As many great men once said, your mileage may vary.

To be honest, the JLI version of Captain Marvel always struck me as an outright parody of the earlier versions of the character. In many ways, so were the depictions of Beetle, Guy, Booster, and a lot of the other major recurring characters. How much of a parody they were at any given time varied from issue to issue, but toward the end of the JLI run I recall things were frequently unbearably silly and there wasn’t as much of the heart that showed through in that run’s more serious and emotional moments.

I keep this in mind when people complain about Infinite Crisis disrespecting the JLI characters, and to be honest, it usually makes me crack a smile. Giffen/DeMatteis were a good writing team, but I’m not sure they ever really respected any of the characters they worked with on a level deeper than sentimental attachment. Anyone who could be played for laughs was, even if it meant intentionally misreading their personality as was done with Captain Marvel.

In that regard, I enjoy Cap being written like Peter Parker with Superman’s powers

This is emphatically not what I’m arguing for.

I keep this in mind when people complain about Infinite Crisis disrespecting the JLI characters… Anyone who could be played for laughs was

There’s a significant difference between “being played for laughs” and “getting raped, killed, and retconned into a psychopath.”

I read it. I have no affection for Marvel. I have no idea about his history, nor do I care to learn it. And I thought this issue was excellent. Captain Marvel now has a proper role, apart from being That Guy Who Isn’t Superman. He’s kind of a Rupert Giles/Slayer combo for the DCU. He’s got the knowledge and power. Intersting take and I’ll be reading the rest of the series. Loved Porter’s new art style, too.

I agree with you GQ.