Comments on: Cronin Theory of Comics - It Doesn't Matter If Bronze Tiger Can Beat You Up

By: Mary Warner

Mary Warner — Sun, 13 Sep 2009 01:06:35 +0000

I think one of the things I love about Spider-Man is that he can beat some of the most powerfull guys around, and then get beaten by some of the weakest. And it all seems consistent!!! I guess it's because his greatest ability is to avoid getting hurt, but any slip-up can result in real injury. And he has enough personality quirks that can add to or subtract from his fighting, depending on the mood he is in. That's why he's such a great all-purpose super-hero. He can realistically fit into whatever sort of story you need from him.

I think he's perhaps the best example for why these simplistic ranking systems are so stupid. Spider-Man is stronger than Daredevil and weaker than Luke Cage, but that tells you nothing about who might win in any fight between the three.

By: ernest peterson

ernest peterson — Mon, 11 May 2009 16:30:44 +0000

Why is ever body picking the Bronze Tiger, he is the best matrial artist in the DC UNIVERS..!!!!!! no matter WHAT DC DOES OR SAY [ HE BEAT BATMAN ] and fought Richard Dragon to a no contest in dragon
last book and batman to no contest as well. and in batman brave and the bold batman said Bronze Tiger
is better than he is..

By: J-Man

J-Man — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 01:30:43 +0000

It DOES matter if Bronze Tiger can beat you up. Because that creates the possibility of being beaten up by Bronze Tiger.

So could Black Panther beat up Bronze Tiger? Does it matter? Does anything matter? I mean, really? Why does Connor Hawke exist? Nothing against the character as a person, he seems nice enough, but I just would rather he had never been.

"What can I say, Brian? Itâ€™s more important to have people always trying to prove that Wolverine isnâ€™t â€œthe best at what he doesâ€, then it is to actually give Wolverine a personality beyond the borderline psychopath with the mental implants. *wink*"--I love that everyone complains about Wolverine being a one-dimensional personality, but as soon as Joss Whedon writes Wolverine as an actual character, suddenly they're finding a whole bunch of other reasons to hate AXM. Does anyone on the internet LIKE comics?

By: chroom

chroom — Sun, 13 May 2007 01:48:35 +0000

For the record, Bronze Tiger could beat me up.

By: J to the A.A.P.

J to the A.A.P. — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 12:49:45 +0000

I stopped checking out Black Panther when Hudlin introduced "The Klaw!" in such an incredibly corny way it even 'out-cornied' that character's general 'corny-ness'.

By: SanctumSanctorumComix

SanctumSanctorumComix — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 13:55:24 +0000

That's why I got to give props to MAN-THING.

He is really good as standing around like a tree or sitting on his ass.

He is the BEST at being an under-achiever, but he doesn't have to go PROVING it to everyone.

He doesn't go around the swamp having "sloth" contests with everyone.

Yet, if another character, like the bloated zombie-corpse of a pirate goes floating by, in an OBVIOUS superior show of "slack", the MAN-THING is chill with that.
Acknowledges the superior (lack of) effort and shambles off.

He's zen that way.

~P~
P-TOR

By: Michael

Michael — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 00:14:55 +0000

"Can an entire country be a Mary Sue? (Marysuevania?)" As I pointed out on my own blog, Hudlin's Wakanda answers that question with a firm and resolute "Yes."

By: Bright-Raven

Bright-Raven — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:11:57 +0000

What can I say, Brian? It's more important to have people always trying to prove that Wolverine isn't "the best at what he does", then it is to actually give Wolverine a personality beyond the borderline psychopath with the mental implants. *wink*

By: "O" - the Humanatee!

"O" - the Humanatee! — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:28:55 +0000

"..but.. butâ€¦ Doom is a bad guy who makes Armor. Thatâ€™s like his thing. He put all his character points in it and took a really big charisma hit, which is why he talks int he 3rd person all the time.

â€¦how the hell does the Black Panther make better armor than him? WHY make a story where the Black Panther makes better armor?"

Because Hudlin's Black Panther is better than everybody else at everything. And Wakanda is the bestest, smartest, most advancedest society ever!

Can an entire country be a Mary Sue? (Marysuevania?)

(Nothing against T'Challa or Wakanda, by the way. I'm very fond of the character and setting - just not Hudlin's idealization of them.)

By: Omar Karindu

Omar Karindu — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:00:11 +0000

All of which makes me love Journey into Mystery #112 all the more, as the entire point of the story is that characterization is more important than fictional rankings of physical attributes.

By: R.Nav

R.Nav — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:56:29 +0000

..but.. but... Doom is a bad guy who makes Armor. That's like his thing. He put all his character points in it and took a really big charisma hit, which is why he talks int he 3rd person all the time.

...how the hell does the Black Panther make better armor than him? WHY make a story where the Black Panther makes better armor? That's just stupid. The Black Panther outsmarts Doctor Doom? Yea, okay. Heroes do that. Shit, even Squirrel-Girl beat Doctor Doom once. That's what the good guys do. They find a way to win.. but at no point did they ever say that Squirrel-Girl was stronger/better/crazier than Doctor Doom.

By: MarkAndrew

MarkAndrew — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 20:05:04 +0000

That IS really annoying.

It's also weird how it's different for both companies.

At Marvel Spider-man is more or less equal to Daredevil is more or less equal to Iron Fist is more or less equal to Captain America. There are no really distinct tiers.

But once you get into the more powerful heroes, the Thing is less strong than the Sub-mariner (underwater) who is less strong than the Silver Surfer who is less strong than an enraged Hulk. (More or less.)

Over at DC, the less powerful heroes are "tiered off." Nightwing is better than Huntress, but Bronze Tiger is better than Nightwing, but Batman is better than Bronze Tiger. (More or less.)

But the SUPER supers are more or less equal. Superman is more-or-less equal to Wonder Woman is more or less equal to Captain Marvel. Again, no really distinct tiers.

But, yeah, it IS silly and kind of anal to feel you have to PROVE your guy is tougher than Bronze Tiger. And it also feels like a substitute for REAL character development.

By: David C

David C — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 19:10:45 +0000

It just occurred to me one thing that bugs me about the "ranking" obsession. When it's used, it tends to be used in a binary fashion: IF ConnorHawke > BronzeTiger THEN Winner = ConnorHawke END IF Pro Wrestling might work that way, but real life doesn't - every sports fan knows about the "Any given Sunday" phenomenon, where the team or individual who's clearly, objectively "better" doesn't win every time. But in comics, such a "wrong" outcome isn't just "Bronze Tiger had a bad day," it's a change in absolute terms.

By: Beta Ray Steve

Beta Ray Steve — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 18:15:26 +0000

I think the JLA/Deathstroke thing was meant to show how out-of-sorts the JLA were.
The obsession with ranking is a symptom of fanboys writing for fanboys.

By: Paperghost

Paperghost — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:50:35 +0000

"So, the Justice League jobs for Deathstroke to try and make him look better, then Deathstroke jobs for the Birds of Prey"

I rather liked that character till the "using 90% of his brain" thing in Identity Crisis being the reason why he could take down the entire Justice League.

/ twitches

By: T.

T. — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:19:33 +0000

Yes Evan, "jobbing" is a very good term for the phenomenon where you are supposed to lose just for the purpose of making the other guy look good. The problem with jobbing is that if you overdo it with certain characters, those characters' reputation goes down and suddenly beating them is no longer that impressive. Nightwing and Bronze Tiger have jobbed so much now that I think readers expect any half-decent fighter to be able to take them out.

By: Tilt Araiza

Tilt Araiza — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:16:51 +0000

I think some of this tendency caused the escalation in Batman being a jerk. If a writer wanted to make a character look like one of the more pleasant and down-to-earth members of the DC family, it was easy to put them next to Batman and have him scowl at them for a few pages.

By: Evan Waters

Evan Waters — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 16:14:01 +0000

This just occured to me, but it's like pro wrestling. How many matches you win is based on how much "heat" your character is perceived to have (if I'm using my kayfabe terminology correctly), and how much the producers like you. I imagine the same is true for any format where characters fight each other constantly and the outcomes are determined by a pool of different writers. So, the Justice League jobs for Deathstroke to try and make him look better, then Deathstroke jobs for the Birds of Prey- sometimes it's what the story needs, sometimes it's just trying to maximize commercial appeal.

By: T.

T. — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 15:45:44 +0000

In the 90s there was a stage where DC (well, Dixon especially) was ranking the top 5 martial artists every other month. I think the main purpose of it was to establish his favorite Mary Sue as one of the top dogs of martial artists, right up there with Shiva, Dragon and Batman. It was so annoying. It especially made no sense since he was trained in an ashram and his teachers were never noted as being world-class martial artists themselves, yet they were able to produce a superior martial artist than Dick Grayson, who was trained by one of the greatest martial artists in the world, was already a world-class acrobat before he even started training, plus got tons of on the job experience. But alas, Dixon really wanted his Mary Sue, so there you go.

It's funny, you use Bronze Tiger as an example, but I still think my favorite dead horse to beat Nightwing is a better won. He was used over his career to help establish Deathstroke, Connor Hawke, Azrael and numerous others as badasses, all of whom have beaten him down. You say Bronze Tiger hasn't won a notable fight since Suicide Squade ended. Dick hasn't won a notable fight since New Teen Titans was started!

Yeah, but basically I think DC is worse with the obsessive-compulsive ranking thing.

By: Ken Raining

Ken Raining — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 14:21:41 +0000

It's kinda like pro wrestling, where the guy getting the push at the moment will automatically come out on top, even if that contradicts every logical assumtion. I suppose you can't expect a writer to make his character inferior to anyone.