I respectfully disagree about whether the rape scene felt wrong or not (well obviously, it was rape, so it felt wrong in that sense, but you get my meaning), but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. However, you really lose me here:

"I thought Safa’s fears of the outside world could stem from something more directly related to Man and what he had done to her, not a few other lions."

It's not Safa's fears of the outside world, it's Safa's fear of freedom itself. Men being the cause of the fear doesn't have nearly the impact of other lions, because... given freedom, they're capable of doing terrible things to each other.

Now, if you want to argue that it should've been a terrible thing of a non-sexual nature, that's cool. But I definitely think it has to be another lion that leads to Safa's fear. I just think that's more appropriate to the questions raised in the book.

I will point out that I don't do this for a living. I spent 20 dollars for Pride of Baghdad, and much like unruly fans at football games who act boorishly, that entitles me to speak about it however I want to. But that's not a defense, I just wanted to point it out - if someone wants to pay me to do this and gives me free stuff, I will be much more careful. If you look at the reviews I do when people DO send me free stuff, I am much less likely to be so flip about it, even if I don't like it. All the reviewers you mentioned above work for august companies who probably get inundated with goodies because the creators want their opinion. I'm just pointing that out.

As for the research aspect, I have seen many, many writers - good ones - who fail in minor aspects of their research. They get the "big stuff" but miss some of the smaller things, and that's okay. The rape feels like something Vaughan wanted to use no matter what, so although I have no idea if lions do that sort of thing, it feels like something he would have put in even if he found evidence they don't. I obviously haven't done research, but I have watched a lot of nature shows, and I've never heard of it. I went back and changed a bit of the wording of my objection, because it was a bit too snarky, but my original objection remains: I find it very difficult to believe that real lions would act this way. And again, I could certainly be wrong.

The final point is that I don't care if real lions act this way. Ultimately, my objection to the scene is not whether it COULD happen because that's what lions do, but rather, whether the scene SHOULD be included. I felt it was totally unnecessary for the story, especially because the point becomes moot in a few pages when the zoo is destroyed. Safa whines a bit about being in the "outside" world, but even her fears don't really come up that much. Rape is such a loaded thing, even in the lion world, that this scene felt wrong when looked at in the context of the larger book. Since it's a book about what freedom means, not what rape means (although rape is a way to take away someone's freedom, I know), I thought Safa's fears of the outside world could stem from something more directly related to Man and what he had done to her, not a few other lions.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As I mentioned to Vaughan, I am relatively new at this, and I'm feeling my way. I try not to be so obnoxious, but occasionally it slips through. If you read a lot of my stuff, I hope you'll see it's kind of rare that I get snotty about the creator instead of the actual work. It happens, but I'm trying to rein it in.

You "bet" that Vaughan has about an equivilent amount of knowledge of the subject of his work as you, a non-expert, do. But why not "assume" the opposite:
That a writer who spends weeks or months or years on an artistic endeavor, a writer who makes his living doing it, cares about doing it well? That you might not have the same knowledge of a subject he elected to write about, and you made the much easier decision to read about?

And look! Vaughan said in an interview, "I spent weeks reading about the region, studying the history of Iraq, learning everything I could about lions..." (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=82394).

Now, does that mean his story about talking lions was or wasn't true to real-life lion behavior? I don't know (and neither do you). But my point is just this: Take a look at book reviews in The New York Times, or The New York Review of Books, or the Wall Street Journal or Washington Post or LA Times or Time or Newsweek or The New Yorker or whatever quality journalistic organ you want. Some reviews will be positive, some will be negative. But all will have a degree of respect for the author that's missing from your review.

Give that a try, and you'll be a better critic.

Cheers,
Ben

rape scenes are designed to make us uncomortable. in this aspect I'd say BKV has succeeded.

I'm pretty sure the the Lion gang rape isn't accurate though. I doubt several male Lions would share a "mate."

Yes it's almost 6 AM and I'm discussing Lion Gang Rape...

Still I bought the book and it's a great read. Good pick Greg.

And yes Bone rocks the Casbah. Sorry for not mentioning it

I suppose it really matter one buys into the theories of certain sociobiologists making rape out to be a natural biological feature of power and dominance display. this is prime Darwinian action for the strong to survive in periods of lesser socialization and civilization. rape as a literary tool goes traces back to Spenser and many of the Greek myths... at this point in the game, it's as "cliche" as murder.

As for Teenagers From Mars, I had heard nothing but praise for it, and was planning to read it at some point. Now you've made me seriously reconsider. I'll have to see if I want to get it after all. Hmmm.

Even though you didn't like Kickback, from your description and the art samples you provided, I think it looks great and really want to get it now. Weird. I guess I just really like David Lloyd.

I liked Pride of Baghdad a lot, and thought the political allegory was very interesting. It definitely gave me a lot to think about, although much of my thoughts are about trying to figure out the many possible interpretations of the symbolism. However, I don't know if I agree that the lions (and other animals) aren't supposed to be stand-ins for humans. I think they are definitely supposed to be animals, but they are still symbolic. In fact, that might be one place where the symbolism broke down for me. I know I was distracted when one of the lions shouted "Animals!" when it was shocked by some savagery (I'm trying not to spoil anything here). Aren't the lions and everyone they interact with animals? It would have made more sense to me to say "savages" (maybe "hyenas"?). Oh well, it was still a very good book, and the art was absolutely beautiful. I would still recommend it.

I think I'll be picking the book up based on that. This is what comics are about people.

Kickback: Didn't read. But I have trouble with stuff translated from French. You ever read any of Trondheim's stuff, Greg? It's great, but I have trouble with it 'cause of translation.

Teenagers From Mars: ("see, they’re not actually alien teenagers, they just live in a town called Mars, but the title is really a metaphor, because the adults think they’re aliens - it’s clever, get it?). "

Ooooohhhhh yeah. In my defense I read this REAL fast 'cause the library was closing and I lost my card.

Heh. I was either gonna buy "American Born Chinese" OR "Journey Into Mohawk Country." I think you made up my mind for me.

"Pride of Baghad" was good. And I can't STAND Y or Deux Ex Machina. Not, y'know, Gilbert Hernandez good, but damned solid all the way through. But I'm a sucker even for un-funny funny animals list.

Bone: Good review. I'da had trouble working my head around a book that big. I actually bought the whole thing in floppies, although it was on issue 20 or so when I started. I don't think I've ever bought twenty issues in a row of any other comic, let alone sixty. Great book.

And I was kinda looking forward to Pride of Baghdad. *sigh*

From what I've read, it seems that a single lioness can be impregnated by a multiple of male cats within a single episode of fertility (and lions can mate upwards of thrity times per day). So it doesn't seem difficult to imagine that a given lioness might feel, well, put upon on a particular day. Whether she would consider the activities to be rape, however, sits upon the idea of consent. I suppose that in an imaginary story in which lions have motivations beyond the merely primal, there might be such a thing as consent amongst animals, but in real life, I'm not sure any of us are equipped to answer that with how little we know of the psychology and communication of the species.