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So who died?

Finally it is complete! So happy! It read sort of like an issue of Solo, especially the newspaper cartoon strip with Carla. Sort of like th Daryn Cooke issue, and difference in colouring and style. I just wish it was longer. I was afraid the traitor was going to be the one that it was.

Klarion is going to be in Robin with Irving on pencils, that's going to be so awesome. + I want closure on Frankenstein! The whole Cyrus thing didn't make sense for me, guess i'll have to wikipedia it.

Like I said, Seven Soldiers #1 was incredibly pretty - J.H. Williams is a remarkable artist. But there's such a thing as too much compression. Morrison is packing the thing with nothing but exposition, and much of it is exposition of the worst kind - characters or concepts which are being introduced pages or panels before they'll be used, resolved, or pulled off the board. Other plot threads are tied up using stray characters or elements randomly tossed into previous series. I was supposed to actually care about Zor? Really?

With very few exceptions there's no room to show why anyone is doing what they're doing, and in some cases this is left a complete mystery (Why does Bulleteer decide to stay a superhero? Why does Klarion take control of the Sheeda? What was Mister Miracle trying to accomplish? Hell, what was "Dark Side" trying to accomplish? The entire Mister Miracle sequence might as well be ad copy screaming "Read 52 - On Sale Now!"). I could come up for reasons why all of these characters did what they did, just like I could rationalize away dozens of other holes in this series (or I could browse the Barbelith threads and let them do it for me), but good storytelling doesn't rely the reader to fill in all the gaps - especially when they're gaps in something as basic as characterization and plot mechanics.

I could go on to other problems, but I won't belabor the point. This was an ambitious project, but it was too ambitious for Morrison to handle. He's rarely been the "pull it all together in the end" type, which is why you end up with those labored Barbelith threads in the first place. Alan Moore could've done something like this, maybe Ellis... but I think this was going to be a slow motion train wreck from the start. That said, we got five pretty cool miniseries out of it.

And really, this should go without saying, but to the extent that Seven Soldiers #1 works at all, it works because J.H. Williams is one of the most talented artists working in mainstream comics. The fact that we can refer to this comic as "Morrison's" as if it sprung penciled, inked, and colored from his head (or refer to Promethea as "Alan Moore's Promethea" - as if the art in that one was no great shakes) just demonstrates that a truly bizarre cult of the writer has come to dominate criticism of a visual medium.

Well, I think it's fair enough to refer to the series as "Grant Morrison's Seven Soliders", instead of "Grant Morrison's and Cameron Stewart's and Ryan Sook's and Doug Mahnke's and...Seven Soldiers."

I've been racking my brain all day, but I don't think I've ever been more dissapointed in a comic book that I was in Seven Soldiers #1. And I really enjoyed most of this project. Issue 0, while a bit obtuse, still took my breath away. And the minis, with the notable exception of Mister Miracle, which was a complete dud, were all very strong. But this comic... we waited this long for this? It's just a complete mess. Brian, you seem to give SS #1 a bit of a pass, but perhaps it reads better when the prevoius minis are fresher in the mind, as you did. I fully plan to go back and read Seven Soldiers in the way you did (and I find the packaging decision DC made with the trade paperbacks perplexing), but I've a feeling I will feel much the way I do now. Most of the elements intorduced in the individual titles don't seem to come to much fruition here; moose n squirrel's analysis is pretty much spot on. Most of the characters just don't seem to have much to do. I think Seven Soldiers will be remembered as a grand experiment that generated a lot of excitement and some very good stories, but as a concept (that being a team book in which the heroes never actually meet) it has to be something of a failure.

Yeah, he didn't even really try to bring the whole thing together in a cohesive whole.

But I'm fine with that. Lots of cool stuff happened and it was beautiful.

Well, I think it’s fair enough to refer to the series as “Grant Morrison’s Seven Soliders”, instead of “Grant Morrison’s and Cameron Stewart’s and Ryan Sook’s and Doug Mahnke’s and…Seven Soldiers.”

Yeah, it's just a separate hobbyhorse of mine. Seven Soldiers #1 was really Williams's issue - an absolutely gorgeous piece of work - and artists in mainstream comics don't seem to get as much hype as writers for whatever reason.

moose n squirrel -

"and artists in mainstream comics don’t seem to get as much hype as writers for whatever reason"

At this point in the cycle, at least. 10 years ago, it was the artists who sold the book and few seemed to care about the writers (just ask the guys who formed Image, or the editors at Marvel who had to struggle when they left). The decade before that, the focus was mostly on the writers. A decade before that, it was the characters who sold the book and it didn't matter so much who drew it OR wrote it.

The focus shifts. Nowadays I think there's a focus on writers primarily by the fans, which feeds the hype machine for writers. As to why fans seem to care more about the writers than the artists these days, I tend to blame the "Image Revolution" of the 90s and the artist focus that came before it that gave us pretty but empty comics for such a long time.

(That's not to say that SOME artists don't get a lot of hype - Frank Quitely and Alex Ross both come to mind as selling a book as much as Grant Morrison or Warren Ellis will - but I agree that right now the focus of the hype is on writers, not artists).

This is a case where I'd love a site that gave detailed analysis (and by extension, spoilers) for each book individually. I didn't read all the minis, just the ones that appealed to me, and so I know I'm missing stuff. But SS#1 comes very close to making sense, which is more than can be said for most Morrison stuff, so I think those last final pieces could really help...

look no further than here my friend - http://www.barbelith.com/faq/index.php/Seven_Soldiers_Annotations and http://joglikescomics.blogspot.com/2006/04/seven-soldiers-short-list.html

I found these sites to be of invaluable help when making my way through the series, and they should cover all of the plot-points for you.

I was a little disappointed- for all the experimentalism, beautiful art, and cool bits, Seven Soldiers 1 was neither a coherent story nor a satisfying conclusion. I felt like the Seven Soldiers themselves got short-changed in their own story. I did not care about Cyrus Gold or the Tailors and wanted to see more Zatanna, Bulleteer, Frankenstein, et al. I wasn't crushed that the end product did not live up to my expectations, but I feel like the book should have been better.

This is a case where I’d love a site that gave detailed analysis (and by extension, spoilers) for each book individually.

Not just a site, but a Wiki from the good folks at Barbelith. Your contributions are welcome.

You might know me Jack, but by another name...

I think the main thing I want to know about is who are the Seven Unknown Men? Grant said they were all existing DC characters... and then didn't tell us who they are (ha, I bet he's sitting at home reading this and thinking "No! I forgot that one!! Dammit..."). Any takers? I one suggested they were the Golden/Silver age versions of all these characters, but on no evidence obviously.

Brian, you seem to give SS #1 a bit of a pass, but perhaps it reads better when the prevoius minis are fresher in the mind, as you did.

Very likely.

The fact that we can refer to this comic as “Morrison’s” as if it sprung penciled, inked, and colored from his head (or refer to Promethea as “Alan Moore’s Promethea” - as if the art in that one was no great shakes)

I'm pretty sure I tossed a great deal of praise JH Williams' way for both #0 and #1 (and back when he was doing Promethea, as well).

That all being said, on both Seven Soldiers and Promethea, Williams was drawing what the writer told him to draw. We've already established that Morrison was very detailed in his instructions for these stories. Williams didn't just say, "Oh, I should draw this page like this." Morrison told him to draw it like that.

The whole thing is Morrison's brainchild, just like Promethea was Moore's brainchild.

That they worked with an artist as talented as Williams allowed their brainchild to be depicted beautifully, but it does not change the fact that the control of the project was entirely in the hands of the writer.

Just like how Grant Morrison specifically told Andy Kubert to draw the fight scenes in Batman against the backdrop of the pop art paintings, so that the dialogue would depict what is happening in the fight. You can say "Andy Kubert did a good job of following instructions," but to give him credit for the idea is too much.

Like it is too much to give Williams credit for the ideas expressed in #0 or #1.

He is just an amazing artist who can take what Morrison and Moore tell him to draw, and actually pull it off (where some artists would fall short).

I loved issue 0 but hated issue 1. Maybe I'm just dumb, but most of the events that occur in issue 1 don't seem to make much sense in the context of the work as a whole. I would have expected the miniseries to build up to this conclusion, but the main thrust of the stories had little to do with this conclusion, while minor details ended up having major importance (though poorly explained). Is there any hint at all that Klarion had any motivation to become king of the sheeda? It's been a long time since I read that series, but that doesn't sound right at all.

That all being said, on both Seven Soldiers and Promethea, Williams was drawing what the writer told him to draw. We’ve already established that Morrison was very detailed in his instructions for these stories. Williams didn’t just say, “Oh, I should draw this page like this.” Morrison told him to draw it like that.

The whole thing is Morrison’s brainchild, just like Promethea was Moore’s brainchild.

This is absurd. Morrison and Moore might have "told him to draw it like that," but the point is they can't draw it like that, and even if they could it wouldn't look the same. No two artists are going to produce the same result; J.H. Williams' Promethea looks a hell of a lot different than John Cassaday's would have, or Gene Ha's. Beyond that, every artist does a million little things in each book that aren't strictly specified in the script, from the positioning of characters and objects within a frame to the use of positive and negative space to the curve of a line. It's preposterous to act as if writers are passing their scripts through brainless artbots that are just spitting out whatever's been dictated to them.

Moose n Squirrel

"This is absurd. Morrison and Moore might have “told him to draw it like that,” but the point is they can’t draw it like that, and even if they could it wouldn’t look the same."

I agree. And, once more, from what I've read, Morrison's scripts aren't all THAT detailed. They're not sixty page novellas like Alan Moore's and I don't think he's doing thumbnails.

He might tell Williams WHAT to draw, but Williams chose how to draw it.

Which means he certainly shares in the blame, too.

I don't see how saying "This is Morrison's brainchild" is relegating Williams to a "mindless artbot." Williams is bringing Morrison's vision to realization but it is still Morrison's vision. That doesn't diminish the absolutely amazing job that Williams did but his gorgeous art doesn't make the story his, anymore than you can credit Morrison for the beautiful renderings.

God I love this series, I'm waiting for the trades so I haven't read the grand finale. But it's just so well done and cheers you up if you lament the state DC Comics is in these days.

Yeah, he didn’t even really try to bring the whole thing together in a cohesive whole.

Did... did you read the same comic I did? Because I thought it was great and beautiful and tied everything together.

...and how many other Barbelith posters read this blog?

This whole series has been a fun ride. I've got my Seven Soldiers stacked in order just waiting to be reread. Clearly this is a book that is begging to be reread. Cronin summed it better then I would. I would add that I would love to see Morrison do a second Seven Soldiers event possibly with a whole new batch of characters.

I hope some people continue on with some of the ideas. I wasn't wild about Mister Miracle but I loved the hip hop take on the New Gods. And the connection between Klarion and the Grundys are interesting and I'd loved to see that explored. I would love to see Bulleteer and Shining Knight regular series.

And they've got to do an Absolute Edition.

That doesn’t diminish the absolutely amazing job that Williams did but his gorgeous art doesn’t make the story his, anymore than you can credit Morrison for the beautiful renderings.

I never said that the story was Williams's; I just said that far too much credit was being given to the writer at the artist's expense. In the particular case of Seven Soldiers #1 the issue works best on a visual level, with Williams doing some absolutely stunning work. The plot itself is cluttered and rushed, and doesn't leave much room for characterization or resolution. What makes the comic as charming as it is, however, is the elegance and flair with which Williams manages to pull off the story's visual tricks (compare this issue to Kubert's work on Batman so far, where we're also seeing Morrison-written visual gags, but with far less effective execution). It obviously takes a writer and an artist (well, several artists; don't get me started on inkers and colorists) to make a comic; it's rather bizarre that something like auteur theory would come to settle on a medium as dominated by collaboration as comic books.

"I don’t see how saying “This is Morrison’s brainchild” is relegating Williams to a “mindless artbot.” Williams is bringing Morrison’s vision to realization but it is still Morrison’s vision."

Wow. Completely disagree.

We're much closer to seeing how the artist sees the world than the writer. ESPECIALLY in the case of a guy like Morrison who lets the artist have fairly free-reign.

We’re much closer to seeing how the artist sees the world than the writer. ESPECIALLY in the case of a guy like Morrison who lets the artist have fairly free-reign.

Morrison specifically did not give his artists fairly free reign on Seven Soldiers.

He wrote Seven Soldiers as about Alan Moore-esque as you can get.

Now I don't know if he uses this approach on his other comics, but for Seven Soldiers, he wrote the same way Alan Moore normally does, which is extremely detailed full-script.

In fact, I think Williams did more design work on Promethea than he did on Seven Soldiers. Says Williams about Promethea - "And what's amazing, I find, working with Alan, he will give me a description that's three pages of text for one or two panels - it's this amazingly long and detailed thing but then quite often, at the end, he'll say, 'But if you see it differently, go for it.' So he's very open. I'd say about 70 per cent [of the visual design work] is me, and 30 per cent is Alan."

While here, Morrison drew the visual designs of each character himself!

This, of course, does not mean that JH Williams did not do a great job of drawing the comic book. Heck, you can easily enjoy the artwork more than the story, that's cool.

Same with any of the other mini-series. If you dug Ryan Sook's artwork more than Morrison's story, go right ahead.

But Morrison's Seven Soldiers is just that.

While here, Morrison drew the visual designs of each character himself!

Character design is a far cry from laying out and penciling an entire comic. By your logic, Steve Ditko has drawn every Spider-man comic ever made.

William's strength is panel size, placement, how they fit together and look on the page.

And Seven Soldiers was very uniquely Williams.

It was completely different than the design work done in the other Minis. Or anything else Morrison's ever penned.

I'd be surprised if Morrison had much to do with the way the book is arranged in that regard, at least for the parts that weren't a newspapaer or a Little Nemo comic.

Well, I thought that was a bunch of hooey. I had no doubt that I would enjoy the individual miniseries, but read together, I doubted they would be anything but, well, seven mini-series read back to back.

With all due respect, Bri, based on your demonstrated love of the Morrison Kool-Aid, I can't see you ever having doubted a Morrison claim. ;)

Character design is a far cry from laying out and penciling an entire comic. By your logic, Steve Ditko has drawn every Spider-man comic ever made.

It certainly precludes people from claiming Spider-Man to be Stan Lee's brainchild.

Unlike here, where Seven Soldiers is Morrison's brainchild.

William’s strength is panel size, placement, how they fit together and look on the page.

Yes, Williams is a very good artist.

With all due respect, Bri, based on your demonstrated love of the Morrison Kool-Aid, I can’t see you ever having doubted a Morrison claim.

It's an especially big surprise that they read that way after I had read each mini-series on its own already, yet when read together, the way that he manages to tell complete 4-issue stories while telling a much larger story, it's really quite surprising and remarkable.

The amount of planning must have been immense.

I dunno--I had the same feeling about #1 that I had about some of Morrison's JLA stories, specifically, "Did I miss the issue that would actually make this make sense?" The story's all there in Morrison's head, but I can't help feeling that he didn't fully get it out onto the page.

I'm not surprised some people are having trouble putting it together, but honestly the story is all there. I just read the entire thing last night and found it to be much more coherent than expected. It may help that I'm currently taking a class about Irish and Scottish mythology and literature, and so I'm already completely immersed in the concepts of non-linear time, archetypal Celtic hero figures, restorative justice and otherworlds that Morrison completely douses the book in. It may also help that I'm currently reading Outlaws of the Marsh, a 12th century Chinese novel that takes the same basic concept of warriors who never meet but who constantly effect and influence each other (only with 108 "soldiers"). But seriously, its all there. Morrison leaves nothing out, and its beautifully fun.

Not just that "Williams is a very good artist," but it doesn't read like Morrison specifically dictated how many panels and where they go, like Alan Moore does, or did thumbnails like Bendis. (And many others.)

Therefore, the importance of the writer in this writer/artist collaboartion is less so than in many other writer artist collaborations.

Although I agree with your overall point; I think Seven Soldiers held and tied together very, very well.

This is an interesting discussion, but I'm not sure if I agree with anybody at all. Or what I disagree with all of you about. Or much of what happened in SS #1, even though I liked it a lot. To quote Dan Coyle's Fanboy Rampage catchphrase, "I'm so confused!"

I don't think it's an easy issue to follow, but it is comprehenisble if you understand the themes that Morrison has developed over the course of the series. Mister Miracle in particular is critical to figuring things out, yet that's the least accessible of the seven minis. To some extent, that's a flaw in his planning, but if you read carefully, you can find pretty much everything you're looking for. Seven Soldiers is a very demanding work, its very structure ensures that a lot of the development will happen 'offscreen,' and this issue is condensed to the most important stuff, with no traditional exposition moments. However, I think it does a fantastic job of wrapping up all seven minis.

I wrote up a pretty extensive review on my blog, which breaks the issue down and defines its place in the overall saga: http://thoughtsonstuff.blogspot.com/2006/11/seven-soldiers-1.html

I don’t think it’s an easy issue to follow, but it is comprehenisble if you understand the themes that Morrison has developed over the course of the series.

To be perfectly clear regarding my thoughts on the actual issue/series: I don't think the comic is that confusing, and I think it's possible to "decode" most of it and figure it out. But it's not emotionally satisfying at all. Characters are given random motivations and meet with random fates; the story is too compressed to breathe; plot devices and dei ex machinis are desperately strewn across the comic because there's just no space to tell the story any other way. The issue here isn't one of comprehension but one of connection. I can work out the story but it leaves me utterly cold.