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What about the 'my girlfriend died of a broken neck' line? (or whatever it was)I thought that was the cause of the internet's slight perforation... Aren't we in fandom still arguing over that? 'Did Gwen die from the shock or the sudden stop' is almost a big a deal as 'is Superman an alien pretending to be a reporter, or is he a farmboy with super-powers'. Isn't it? No?

I dont know, somehow, I liked the issue.

And I'm not going to provide any examples or reasons to back that up.

I just enjoyed it.

Haven't been following the book but I saw the cover with Spidey and the New Thunderbolts (who I think are kind of cool) and thought hey there might be a cool Spider-man vs. The New Thunderbolts fight. And I flipped through it seeing Spider-man get his ass kicked by Jack O'Lantern AND Jester.

Lame.

Not a big Punisher fan so wasn't that wowed by his appearance.

I'm thinking the Jester just got his ear shot off.

But anyhoo, yawn is right. It's amazing how little of anything happened in this issue. As you say, at least it didn't utterly blow like the last one, though there were plenty of small moments where the characters I've known for years still appear to have been replaced by pod people. Or in the case of Spider-Man, someone who doesn't have either the character's normal powers OR the stupid new costume's abilities.

I felt exactly the same way. The issue was so underwhelming, it was actually kind of amazing. Marvel has gone so far out of their way- even changing the shipping schedule of the entire line- because they don't want to give away all the stories twists and turns, and then they put out an issue with no twists and turns. Yeah, it's not really a bad comic, but an event? hardly.

And am I the only one that wants to know why Spider- Man's spider sense didn't warn him of the Jester and Jack's upcoming attack? Why is this the first time in FIFTY YEARS the guy's been taken by surprise?

Maybe it' a quibble, but it's just another example of the creators forcing the characters to fit into the confines of the story, whether their actions jibe with their established history or not. It's just really sloppy editing, the kind we've come to expect from the Quesada era. Say what you want about Jim Shooter, but he wouldn't have allowed some of the garbage we've been subjected to in the last five years.

Worse yet, can't Sue make things invisible across the spectrum? Couldn't she make Johnny's infrared radiation invisible too? That was my first thought seeing that.

"And am I the only one that wants to know why Spider- Man’s spider sense didn’t warn him of the Jester and Jack’s upcoming attack? Why is this the first time in FIFTY YEARS the guy’s been taken by surprise?"

Maybe his Spidey sense said "Fuck it, it's just Jester and Jack O'Lantern, I'm taking a break. Let Punisher take them down."

Actually, Ski Mask man actually appeared a few months before in one of the Sally Floyd stories in Frontline.

As for the Spider-Sense issue Ken mentions, Peter has said that ever since he announced his identity to the public, his Spider-Sense has basically been perpetually buzzing ever since.

Still, this was a pretty boring issue, and this is coming from a huge Punisher fan.

Maybe I've missed something, which happens a lot, but how did Johnny and Sue change their hair color? Did anyone else notice this? When they were fleeing the battle their hair was the normal blonde color. Then they're walking on the sidewalk and it's black. When they enter the Super Hero Hide-Out and they're taking off their uniforms, it's blonde again.

Was this a continuity error? Is there something I'm missing? It just kind of caught my eye for some reason. (At least something in Civil War did...)

Oops... That should read "taking off their disguises" not "taking off their uniforms." My bad.

Actually, Ski Mask man actually appeared a few months before in one of the Sally Floyd stories in Frontline.

While not positive, I believe Jenkins said that was someone else.

"While not positive, I believe Jenkins said that was someone else."

Son of Ski Mask Man?

This certainly was a "meh" issue. But that's not what's even bothering me the most.

It wasn't quite apparent until #5 just how poorly this thing reads if all you're doing is reading the main series itself. I'm reading Civil War without buying any other tie-ins, and it sure doesn't make a helluva lot of sense. I mean, I get the overall gist — it's not complicated — but key scenes are clearly left out. It was a "yeahbuhwhat?" moment when Spidey's second thoughts from last issue suddenly became a decision-already-made, full-blown fight between him and Stark this issue. Talk about short-changing the reader. (Ditto the chase scene with Torch and Sue escaping all the agents. They just dropped that.) And what a disappointment when the big fight with the villains — last issue's cliffhanger, teased on #5's cover — got put off! (That's almost as bad, though not quite, as IC#7 blowing off the ginormous throwdown over the fate of Metropolis between the heroes and the villains. That's a HUGE fight we were all waiting for, and we saw like four panels of it.)

But during the hype before the debut, Marvel pretended that this is a self-contained story in seven issues. Now, some die-hard fanboys won't care if that's not true, but I don't like being lied to. I don't think I'll be buying any other major crossover from any company ever again. (Unless maybe Morrison writes it: I did love DC One Million. Which of course you could read only the Morrison issues and follow along with no problem whatsover. None of this Diana-snaps-Max's-neck happening in another title!)

What I can't believe is that Iron Man, who in one of the Spider-Man titles prior to this issue (I don't remember which one; I didn't buy it.) was able to detect and barge in on Spider-Man the second that Spidey verbalized his decision to change sides, didn't build some sort of failsafe device into the Spider-armor to shut it down? The latest issue of Iron Man's own series is all about the secret code words and overrides that he built into his own armor and that of the hero-hunters, yet for some reason, Spider-Man's armor is the one design where this sort of thing doesn't exist. Not even a homing beacon, apparently.

I agree: that was a long wait for an issue where nothing really happened.

Johnny/Sue hair question:
Sue is visible taking off a black wig in the panel where they discuss Cloak and Dagger.

Since this issue was so bad, I can safely assume that none of you will be buying issue six... right?

moose n squirrel: The thing is, while this series has some major flaws in its execution, it does include some interesting concepts (the idea of a "civil war" among the heroes, the Thor clone/cyborg/whatever they're calling him this month) and some exciting moments (the battles, few as they are), as well as McNiven's excellent art.

Also, despite the flaws in their characterizations, I've liked many of these characters for a long time and I want to keep up on "what's going on" with them. What's Cap up to these days? What's Spidey up to? This series is the place to find out right now, and $2.99 every 3 months is a relatively small investment to make. I don't buy all of the "peripheral" titles linking to the miniseries - I just want to see what's going to happen to these characters, and how that might affect their individual titles in the future, most of which I also don't buy.

Following this series also allows me to participate in some pretty interesting discussions - love it or hate it, this series is what comic fans are talking about right now (though the one-issue-per-3-months schedule has slowed that down quite a bit).

I can definitely understand why someone wouldn't buy this series, but I can also see why some people would buy it, as well.

I haven't been buying any Marvel anything I wasn't picking up before Civil War.

Hell, if the aftermath of this thing screws up the pace and tone of Brubaker's Captain America plotting as much as I fear it will, I'll be buying fewer Marvel comics as a direct result of this crossover-mania.

Leaving aside the main miniseries, has any comic other than perhaps Black Panther actually gained anything from the "war" in terms of clever plot points, interesting new takes on a premise, or the like?

Oh, and it sounds like Civil War #5 confirms what we all suspected about Punisher War Journal -- it'll be an endless string of "This issue, Frank kills a Z-list supervillain you don't care about!' Thank goodness they're leaving Ennis alone to do his thing.

res196e7: If they're interesting ideas executed badly, then it's not worth it. Bad writing can ruin a good premise - and good art can't redeem bad writing. And really, is there no other way to keep up with what's happening with these characters other than buying the actual comic? I haven't bought or read a single issue of Civil War and I can tell you every major event that's happened in it just from glancing at a few Newsarama headlines.

My problem is this: if you don't like the comic - and there seem to be more than enough who don't - then why are you buying it? Buying Civil War only ensures that there's going to be more comics like Civil War. This reminds me of nothing less than all those people who bought all those blood-and-guts soaked issues of Infinite Crisis expecting to see a sunny new DCU, only to be shocked, shocked! that DC was going to keep cranking out the same kind of gory, gritty trash that had sold so well. You aren't just making an idle purchase, you're telling the company what material they should publish more of.

So here's what I propose: all of the people who're complaining about Civil War #5 - and complained about Civil War #4, and Civil War #3, and so on - don't buy the rest of the series. Simple as that. Spend that money on something else - something you'll actually like, something you've never tried before, whatever... god knows there's really no shortage of really good or interesting stuff out there, and life's too short to waste on crap you know you probably won't like.

I think the best comment on Civil War #5 can be found here.

I might have to call this the worst issue of Civil War so far. I know, that's saying a lot, but bare with me. Millar's writing is basically a series of F%^! Yeah moments tossed in as thick as possible. In this issue, every single one of those fell flat. The Punisher showing up was lame. The Spider-man sequence was lame. The Daredevil silver dollar was ridiculously lame.

Speaking strictly without judgement*, the appeal of Mark Millar's writing is the excitement level. In this issue, his sole strength failed miserably. People who hate Civil War will continue to hate it, and people who like Millar will find nothing of interest. It's largely incapable of pleasing anyone, and that an excellent definition of a bad comic book.

*Because I loathe Millar's work, personally.

Honestly, is Millar just incapable of writing a story that actually consists or more than people standing around saying things like "THIS IS WHAT I'M FEELING" or "THIS IS WHAT YOU, THE READER SHOULD BE FEELING". Its even gotten to the point where instead of showing things like characters getting captured or important events happening people are just standing around saying "THIS EVENT HAPPENED OFF PANEL, YOU SHOULD PROBABLY MAKE A NOTE OF IT".

I guess my question is, is Millar actually a twelve year old? Because that would explain pretty much everything he's ever written.

"As for the Spider-Sense issue Ken mentions, Peter has said that ever since he announced his identity to the public, his Spider-Sense has basically been perpetually buzzing ever since."

And that makes no sense either.

(Even the voices in my head take a break sometimes.)

Yeah, it really doesn't make any sense that he would be perpetually buzzing, because the whole purpose of the Spider Sense is to alert him to ACTUAL danger.

I think the characterizations are fairly on line. Anybody catch Armor Wars? Even the very idea of the avengers. Tony has alwasy thought that he knew better than everyone. He's always been manipulative. He's a munitions dealer for heavan's sake.

Peter is also a scientist and an inventor who figured out that the suit was sending bio readings to Tony a few months back. Maybe he devised a way around any failsafe mechanism. I think the series is great. It certainly is more cohesive than infinite crisis. I think it is a lot to contain in the 7 issues though. The delays have taken from the pace, but this will end up a great story in totality i think.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

"WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!"

Lol. Thank you Howard the Duck.

I haven't read any comics dealing with it, but I like the notion that revealling his identity turned Peter's Spider Sense into a low grade buzz. It's like his sub-concious is screaming, "Get a new secret identity! Now!"

Or maybe "sell your Marvel stocks!" Thank you and goodnight.

I’m in agreement with some of the, no doubt, well considered sentiments on display here – just yawn all around.

Not that this Civil War even is boring or lacking in “big” moments, far from it. In fact, it seems as though the pages between the covers have been stuffed with one exciting twist or shocking revalation or anything else Mr. Millar seems to think will drum up yet more enthusiasm in his readers. And, well, I guess I’ve just become numb to the whole thing by this point. I suppose it could be the late shipping date but, well, I haven’t enough money to follow all the books I want so the other day when my friend offer to loan me a few in exchange for a trade I had just sitting around he offered me the latest Civil War and I just said “Civil War? That isn’t over yet? Hmm, yeah, I’d rather have something else, thanks.” So I wish I could say more about the actual issue at hand but, frankly, so to speak, I’m more than a little sick of the whole thing.

See, I think it’s the relentless hype that’s driving me to apathy. This isn’t the first mega crossover lately. There’s Annihilation and Infinite Crisis and Countdown and Seven Soldiers and Identity Crisis and, bleh, it just seems like the bad old days of Atlantis Attacks and War of the Gods all over again. Sure, there’s some interesting stuff being put out but there’s just an incessant effort to convince me, the reader, that this next crossover is going to be the best one yet. Preaching to the faithful. Just pounding the drum a little harder each and every time. Whipping me into a frenzy of excitement that, yeah, I’ve been burned in the past but this time, this time, it’s going to be different. It usually isn’t but next time, well…

Just hype and more hype with nothing to back it up. I can’t say I have the kind of enthusiasm that moose n squirrel seems to have for using my dollars in protest. That takes a bit more anger and energy than I can currently gather. But, I’d think the companies that publish things like Civil War would worry much less about creating such passion than reinforcing my apathy by shouting at me harder. I know I worry about my interest just fading away as I read less and less and less…

Remember when there was a small part of the year in which neither company was running a crossover or "event" miniseries?

Omar: That part of the year would still exist if these 7-issue event miniseries actually came out in 7 months.

The cover was completely misleading! i wanted to see Bullseye.

My only complaint on the issue was I wanted to see bullseye, green goblin, and taskmaster but the beating down on spidey.

I guess Taskmaster was too busy being a total pussy over in Moon Knight.

Although, I have to admit that reading all your comments on how bad it sucks, and how stupid it is, and yet you're sitll buying it is fairly amusing.

Thanks for the laughs

I ain't buying it jonze. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are dedicated nerds who scan these things and distribute them online for free. I'm not in the habit of buying things I don't actually enjoy reading. Why read it then? Because I enjoy COMPLAINING. Just not enough to pay for the privelage.

"What about the ‘my girlfriend died of a broken neck’ line? (or whatever it was)I thought that was the cause of the internet’s slight perforation… Aren’t we in fandom still arguing over that?"

Not really. It's been stated in the comics more than once that it was the way Spider-Man caught Gwen that killed her. Most recently in "Sins Past" and Millar's MK story.

"And am I the only one that wants to know why Spider- Man’s spider sense didn’t warn him of the Jester and Jack’s upcoming attack? Why is this the first time in FIFTY YEARS the guy’s been taken by surprise?"

It's not. Not even close. Spider-Man has been nailed a zillion times in situations where his spider sense should have warned him. Writers ignore it or downplay it whenever they want Spidey to take a hit. That's all there is to it.

I have been called on the carpet for my lack of nerdiness. Although, by reading the comments I wonder if I possibly am the bigger nerd for buying and enjoying most of Civil War.

CLOR -We've seen Thor as a human man, a frog, a woman, and the power of Thor given to a horse looking dude. Is a cyborg/clone really all that crazy?

Black Goliath- when was the last time we cared about him.

Spiderman's spider sense not warning him -I agree with the previous comment, there have been plenty of time he's gotten his ass kicked even with the spider sense.

Imprisoning people in the negative zone -Where are they supposed to put these guys? And if we're lucky we'll get an OZ style one shot written by Ed Brubaker, while we wait three months for issue six. They could call it CIVIl WAR: SPEEDSHANK REDEMPTION where Speedball escapes through the negative zone and crawls through three football fields of human waste and somehow comes clean on the other side, and then meets up with Luke Cage on a beach in Mexico.

The Punisher claiming he's been watching their backs the whole time even though he showed up in one issue wearing a ski mask. I'm sure a lot happened off panel that will be explained in an eight issue mini series by Bendis called CIVIL WAR: THE MASK where over eight issues, the punisher talks to a sales clerk about buying the ski mask, and then talks to manager about the correct price for the ski mask, tries on the ski mask at home and then calls the store about their return policy, finds out the illuminati sent the hulk into space, returns the mask for another, decapitates a gangster, and then watches some heroes from fire escapes, and then talks to a little girl about the horrors of war, then decapitates her.

Reed Richards and Tony Stark acting like douchebags- You see them acting out character. That they WOULD never use villans to track down their friends. Well they're the smartest people on the planet, why wouldn't they think the nannites or whatever they're controlling them with wouldn't work. They see that things have been out of hand for awhile and that maybe the heroes should have more orginization and accountability. Where you see them acting like villans I see an awesome one shot: CIVIL WAR MR. FANTASTIC and IRON MAN: Seriously, is it us? Are we really the douchebags here? Maybe we're under the control of the Man Beast, or maybe Captain America's the dick. It would be written by Grant Morrison where they would try to figure out if they're really douchebags without ever meeting each other.

You see a raping of a Universe and its characters I see an oppritunity for awesome spin offs. Such as DAREDEVIL: THE BURN where Daredevil spends a week fighting crime and coming up the thirty pieces of silver zinger before he gets captured. It would be written by Kevin Smith look for it in 2018. FROM THINGRISE TO THINGSET where we follow the Thing and Bartoc the Leaper as they walk around Paris, talking about their dreams and aspirations. In the last few pages they would clobber Fing Fang Foom, and then make a promise to meet again ten years later. It would be written by Dan Slott. CIVIL WAR: ADAM WARLOCK: Hey I'm not doing anythig. Is someone going to pick me for a side? I have a gem. Anybody? How about that Ahnillation? That's crazy. I could help out with that. No? Okay. I'll just be sitting here crucifying myself, and then making a cocoon.

I guess I just like seeing the positive in things.

I quite enjoyed it. It did read a bit quickly, and not a lot happened, but overall I think the story is pretty cool.

Sheesh, half the comics today have not a lot happening and read quickly so this is no different in that regard.

"Black Goliath- when was the last time we cared about him. "

Define 'we'. I sure don't, but you know what? I don't care about the New Warriors either, but I've got a room-mate who's absolutely furious because he loved that comic and is just sick with anger that Marvel killed off some of his favorite characters. I'm sure there are people out there who have every appearance of Bill Foster, and were just hoping that his spotlight in Civil War, combined with Bendis' affection for 70s Marvel, was a sign of an upcoming 'Black Goliath' comic.

This is the problem with death in comics--everyone is somebody's favorite character, everyone has the potential to be revamped into a best-seller, and chucking things out like that just because you, as a writer, think they're "lame" is a huge mistake--not just creatively, but from a business stand-point. (I realize writers shouldn't think from a business stand-point...but editors-in-chief dang well should.)

And personally, I'm buying 'Civil War' strictly for business purposes (it's even tax-deductible)--once it's over, I will go back to not buying Marvel comics again. Except for the Marvel Adventures and Marvel Essentials lines, because those are the kinds of comics I want to read. The mainstream Marvel universe, though, lost me a looong time ago.

What's the point of killing off characters no one cares about?

It's become very clear to me that the appeal of Mark Millar's stories is that he loads up his fairly typical superhero battle scenes with ultraironic snark and comfortably liberal politics so that readers who want to be smarter than superhero nerds can pat themselves on the back while still indulging in superhero nerddom.

It's a 2-part truism expressed by a lot of lowbrow entertainment these days:

1) Give the rubes what they want.
2) What rubes want is to feel like they're on the inside and someone else is the rube.

All you have to do is deliver the same old crap, but with a wink and a sneer, and the rubes will mimic that sneer and declare themselves the kings of cool. Mark Millar gave out an easy joke and a simple inversion of the usual, and everyone who spots it gets to give themselves a gold star and wear a smug grin. Just like Mark does on his way to the bank.

It's a seven-issue exercise in genre in-jokes and backpatting, dressed up as a ludicrous allegory of...something, I'm sure. Abu Ghraib, maybe. Or wiretapping. Or, uhm, gun control. Yeah, that's the ticket.

Short version of the above rant:

Mark Millar comics are to comics what rock criticism is to rock music.

or, alternatively,

Mark Millar comics are to comics what California ska-band covers of great rock songs are to rock songs.

Omar, so right! That's how I'm going to describe Millar's writing from now on.

One quibble: you think Millar loads up his comics with comfortably liberal politics? I don't see any liberal politics here. Seems to me part of the idea of telling the rubes that someone else is the rube is to emphasize that everyone, everyone, is morally compromised and basically a hypocrite. Whether or not they're on the right side.

A schoolboy's insight, that makes your rock criticism point even more cutting!

Except that the "everyone's compromised; everyone's a hypocrite" argument amounts to an absolute version of relativism identified with a particular strain of liberal pseudo-politics. It's the Handicapper General's approach to ethics, because when the limit of your insight is that every system is compromised you needn't make any sort of distinctions between any of them. In effect, it's the suspension of moral choice, of even the possibility of ethics. And so it's a very schoolboy sort of insight, yes.

Now, this isn't the breadth and scope of liberal politics, of course, because it is possible to make moral commitments in some -- I daresay most -- brands of liberalism. But Millar's brand? Not so much. It borders on but isn't libertarianism, since Millar allows for the imposition of one's will by virtue of power. It differs from leftism and right politics in that that imposition of will needn't have any particular ethos behind it in Millar's stories.

Well, I'll certainly agree with your take on Millar's will-imposition, which as far as I can tell is always extravagantly free of ethical considerations. Damn good point. But the radical-subjectivist recipe of "everyone's a [blank]; everyone's [another blank]" works just as well when the blanks are filled in with words other than "hypocrite" and "compromised". "Everyone's a [hero in his own mind]; everyone's [point of view seems justified to him]", for example, in my opinion works just as well to express the Handicapper-General formulation of "liberal relativism", if not better still. But, it isn't a very Millarian thought if you switch these terms out, is it? So I don't believe he's adhering to this relativism at all, but instead he's attacking it: he's only interested in it as a prop for the juvenile cynicism Civil War stinks of, and I think he'd be more than happy to toss the moral equivalence out, if by doing so he could keep the moral compromise in.

To me, that's no kind of liberalism. No kind of conservativism, either. Rather, it's just so much sneering at any sort of belief: as though the idea of morality was vacuous to begin with, and everyone from relativist to absolutist exactly the same sort of deluded fool.

That's the feeling I get from it, anyway.

Hey, Omar, when did we start talking about Ellis' "Authority" run ....?

Not that I disagree with what you're saying, but I always felt Ellis started that trend (or at least blew it into high gear) with "Authority." Suddenly the tightly-plotted, character-driven "Stormwatch" became people punching bad guys and yelling snarky "I'm cooler than you" one-liners.

And who took over after Ellis left? Oh, yeah ....

Anyway, I keep buying it because I and a friend are doing a podcast review of the entire thing. We're somewhat behind, but still, if you want a laugh, you could do worse than to check it out.

http://www.holynightmare.com/cwmenu.htm