Well I guess I’m your fan. But would you like it if I worked on a comic book where you were the victim of Bomb Queen and your real address was published? With Free Speech comes great responsibility.

Seriously, creators: FUCK OFF. It’s not out job to feel sorry for you. EVER.

Now pretend I like Bomb Queen, even though it’s the same pap that nobody outside comics will like… sorry, no, it’s a satire so subtle in it’s delivery that unless you are a true comics crusader, it will appear as shallow as everything else on the same rack. Okay, I bought an issue, but I should, what? Buy another to give to my friend? Screw Free Comic Day, every day is Free Comic Day when I spend my paycheque on this overpriced crap!!! Pamphlets aren’t killing the industry, I am by questioning the value vs. return!!!

And, sure, I may read about the industry, but is that enough? Of course not! Some sites are not visible enough, and that’s my bad. I mean, is Jim Robinson supposed to buy his own domain name and fix his own dead links? Maybe in the old days the Scott McClouds and the Terry Moores were supposed to register their own URL’s but Jimmy is a saviour of comics, (provided we save the industry he’s working for him.) We have to market to ourselves by ourselves for ourselves if we want to SAVE THE INDUSTRY(tm).

Jim’s only true suggestion was to stop and smell the roses… or less poetically to loiter in the comic shop. This will enable the retailers to know what we like and order it. And then people who have never been in a comic shop will flock in because of the new diversity created by loitering. (meaning some fans will have to pitch in and clean the store’s windows.) And if they stop to smell the roses? Exponential Diversity equals Manfest Destiny!

Except that comic shops, especially those with loitering fanboys rarely smell like roses. In fact, the only smell less appealing is that of the plan presented by the ass in the byline. It’s not enough for a TRUE FAN to be Jimmy’s bread and butter, you have to be his indentured slave.

Pompous, lazy prick.

@87: Of course DC and Marvel have always been cancelling titles. No one asserted that cancellations only exist because of the diminishing market. But they occur more frequently now. Do you people have the capacity AT ALL to not argue straw men?

@96: He assumes that because that’s how nerds are.

“Many great comics were written by terrible, awful men I would not want to meet in a dark alley.”–Frank Miller, for example.

“He cited himself as an example of what’s healthy about the comics industry, when his latest project stands as an example of everything that’s embarrassing, infantile, vulgar, sexist and destructive toward the industry.”–Like most nerds, you probably think of yourself as a witty sophisticate. If you can’t grasp the satire in Bomb Queen, how is it that you can grasp a keyboard? I don’t even like the damn comic, but it’s pretty obviously satire.

“Stan Lee is doing MORE than any of us are to help and spread awareness of comics”–Sure he is. The same way Fall Out Boy is doing more than me to spread awareness of punk music. But it isn’t really the right kind of awareness, is it?

However, I am not passionate at all about what I see on the shelves these days.

But perhaps that is not the way we should be seeing things. Perhaps, much like you don’t have to be passionate about every article in a newspaper, or every posting on a webpage, we can select the content which befits our individual tastes, as accept the status quo as something not to be defeated, but simply a starting point, from which we move on.

The superhero comics are an integral part of ANY comprehensive history of American comics. So are detective stories. So are science fiction. So are the funnies- and now, after the late 20th century has fast become the beginning of the 21st, so are memoirs, graphic novels, and indies.

THAT is the status quo. There are the majors, and there are the minors. There is a term in Journalism, in the major publishing houses- of “Church and State”. This refers to the competing, and yet interdependent interests of journalism- or copy writing- and sales, the business end.

Comics’ ‘Complainers’ would do well to remind themselves of this fact. There are certain things we can change. And there are certain things we cannot change. All we can hope for, is the providence to see the difference between the two.

But it can be good to get angry, once in a while, if only to learn the source of our anger in the process of overcoming it. The source could be Daimond, for some. The source could be the fans, to others (I think the creative end of self publishing tend to see this as a problem, readership included, the second they walk into a store.)

Awareness is the problem this poster seems to be haphazardly harping on. (Yes, true believers, amply articulate alliterator, Stan Lee is doing MORE than any of us are to help and spread awareness of comics- has been for the better half of the past century, too!)

Here in Philadelphia, we have the pleasures of networked cartoonists in the form of the Philadelphia Cartoonist Society, who help each other our with self publishing forays (in the form of small anthologies), and engage in all kinds of outreach, doing cartooning for the libraries of various degrees of underprivileged neighborhoods at times, for children with disabilities and for various public events. They help each other out, do group art shows and auctions, and always keep their doors open to new recruits.

If other cities set up a similar group (all it takes, apparently, is one dedicated individual and others to be inspired by him/her) then moves like that can do a great deal toward legitimizing “cartooning” (as a blanket term, that is after all, where comics historically come from) in the public eye.

But it doesn’t happen automatically- and a failed attempt could do more to discourage people than to promote the cause. Comics makers will find a great deal of kin in Caricaturists, Cartoonists, film makers and review writers, and literature writers of their genre (like the author or fans of “the Adventures of Cavalier & Clay”, loosely based on the lives of Simon & Kirby & Lee), if they can only create a platform- set up meetings at a café or bar of choice. Discuss their drawing problems together, alert members through a mailing list to Lectures throughout town that might be relevant- perhaps even arrange for visits themselves from professional cartoonists either in their area or from nearby cities. (we’re fortunate to be a mere 2 hrs. from NY)

And start affecting change! You’ll find alot less to complain about- or at least find plenty of legitimate , concrete things to complain about- once you’ve made the decision to affect the way others percieve this little activity we devote so much time and passion to! So if you like reading comics- confound it, recognize that you’re passion for reading is no different in relation to comics makers’ threatened art form than a steak or burger lover’s appetite depends on there being a plentitude of healthy, amply fed cows, grazing on the good stuff somewhere, somehow!

Or continue reading & buying your books, accept that, RIGHT NOW, comics are TOTALLY COOL, and you can read them in PUBLIC, even boast about them to GIRLS, and chances are, you’ll strike someone’s curiosity, instead of chasing them away. And if someone does think ill of you for being into comics? THEY’RE NOT WORTH YOUR TIME AND YOU SHOULD MOVE ON, PROUDLY, CONFIDENTLY, AND READY TO TURN THE NEXT COMIC FAN ONTO THIS AWESOME SHIT THAT GETS YOU SO FIRED UP!!!!

Ciao,

Djo

So I would say that if the concentration is not only on ‘one guy punches another guy’ stories, but also about adventures and even history (yes, I’ve seen excerpts of history comics, don’t remeber what the title was or who was the author, as I’m personally not so into comics).

“You want to help comics? Kill Diamond. Break their stranglehold on the industry, and get the damn comics back out in public where people can see them.

That’ll help comics. Anything else is rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.”

I agree. The biggest reason comics aren’t mainstream is that no one knows where to go to find them. We’re trying to sell a product at a mainstream level when we hide said product in tiny corner stores that not everyone goes to and not every city even has? Get serious. Comics need to be on bookstore shelves, at grocery stores, in electronics and music stores, in toy stores, and everywhere else that non-fanboys shop.

Take a look at how comics are in Japanese culture. They’re not hidden in some dingy hole in the ground. When comics get mass distribution, they’ll be popular and mainstream. As long as they are distributed as a niche item that is only sold in specialty stores, they’ll reach a limited audience. Period. That’s the entire issue.

As far as my promotion of comics goes, I’m not a salesman. It’s not my job to become a salesamn. If you’re going to go to the trouble of rallying support, spreading grassroots campaigning, and knocking on doors handing out fliers, you should use those same energies toward a political or social cause that will actually improve the world. If you’re going to commit all your energy to some sort of “get out the vote” campaign, why not do it for a cause that will help people?

The idea of hitting the pavement and getting the word out on comics when they aren’t even being sold in a commercially viable marketplace is ridiculous. The comic book market will be magically cured when Diamond dies and comics are sold to people, not just nerds. Until then, devote yourself to something worthwhile.

I want to start by saying that I really think Mr. Robinson’s article is based on a faulty premise. The burden of marketing a product should be borne by the marketer. This, in my opinion, comes in two stages: marketing to the retailer and marketing to the endpoint user. The publisher needs to convince retailers there will be a market and to convince readers to provide that market. This is done through promotion and advertising. ‘Word of mouth’ advertising will happen when someone likes a product enough to speak up for it, but word of mouth advertising is not the /right/ of either the publisher or the retailer.

I’ve seen Diamond mentioned more than a few times, but Diamond is a very dicy issue. Yes, Diamond’s monopoly power has become such that by deciding whether or not to distribute a book Diamond exerts undue influence on publishers by controlling what does or doesn’t get to stores. I know people in the indie market, people whose books I would read and buy, whose books don’t get into stores because Diamond won’t distribute them because they aren’t a good enough risk. Now, not every one of these books is the next Usagi Yojimbo or the next X-Men or the next Rex Mundi. Not every one of these books would necessary be a big cult book, a huge popular hit, or a huge critical hit. But if another distributor with the ability to get books into 80+% of the stores in the country existed, one or more of these books might have been a cult hit or critical smash by now.

The trouble is that retailers /like/ being able to open Diamond’s catalog and see /every/ (or nearly every, there are a few smaller distributors with specific small markets but none can get books into even half the direct market stores in the country) book they might want to sell or that their customers want to buy. They /trust/ Diamond to get product to them on schedule. Younger fans might not remember this, but shipping schedule used to be a major problem back in the days of multiple distributors. It was the shipping schedule issue that led Marvel to cancel their contract with Diamond’s major competitor (actually, at the time, Diamond was the other distributor’s major competitor and the other distributor was ‘the big guy’) and attempt to distribute their books themselves. Their miserable failure at this and subsequent signing with Diamond was what handed Diamond the beginning of their current monopoly: they now distributed for both of the Big 2 instead of just being ‘DC’s distributor’, the niche they occupied before.

Retailers and publishers in the modern direct market /depend/ on Diamond. If Diamond went out of business tomorrow, the direct market would collapse. Like it or not, at this point in time, if the direct market collapsed that would be the end of the American comic book industry. Manga would survive, and an argument can be made that Marvel and/or DC would somehow adapt. But Image, Dark Horse, and the majority of non-manga indie publishers? History. Gone. The American comic book industry, outside of the Big 2, wouldn’t exist without Diamond right now.

It’s a two-edged sword. Diamond hurts the market but the market is dependent on Diamond and the industry is currently dependent on Diamond. There’s no easy or quick solution. Bookstore expansion, industry expansion into the modern day equivalent of ‘newstsands’ (Newsboy Books and Periodicals comes to mind, they are a bookstore specializing in monthly magazines and weekly newspapers, this seems the perfect place to sell some comics), and perhaps the revival of the direct-mail subscription (remember when you actually got your ‘subscriptions’ from the publisher instead of the comic book store?) market all deserve attention. New direct market distributors are needed. But if Diamond is too badly damaged by this, then the industry will be badly damaged as a result.

Which brings me to some of the other comments made, the rather intelligent post by Mr. Larsen and the equally intelligent responses by Mr. MacIver.

I think that the point Mr. Larsen was making is that internet fandom has a tendency to devolve to the lowest common denominator in a /very/ unattractive manner. Realistically, none of us really rise above this /all/ the time. I pride myself on being a rationalist and I have gotten drawn into ‘Product X really sucks’ arguments myself. This is human nature.

That said, internet comics fandom is awash in ‘I like this, and this sucks. If you like this, you’re cool, if you don’t like this you suck too. If you think this sucks, you’re cool, if you don’t think it sucks then you suck too.’Some of this is particularly ugly, such as the particularly vicious controveries regarding Reginald Hudlin’s Black Panther earlier this year. Both sides, both the people who preferred the Christopher Priest series or the original Kirby character and Mr. Hudlin and his fans, have descended to particularly disgusting race-baiting tactics. This isn’t good for anyone, makes both sides look small and ugly, and serves no purpose but negativity. Then there’s relatively harmless, if childish, blowing off of steam about whether turning ‘Squadron Supreme’ from a MAX title to a Marvel title will ruin the book with the strongly iterated opinion that without the word ‘fuck’ and titty shots the book will suck. Or the hotly contested debate over whether ‘The Ultimates’ is the best Marvel comic ever and really cool or just really offensive to fans of the ‘real’ Marvel characters. Which sometimes leads to valuable discussions of ideas and themes, and sometimes devolves into petty name calling.

That large preamble made, I think that Mr. Larsen was saying that there are five to twenty (depending on the bulletin board) negative posts in the above veins for every positive post saying ‘I like this, give it a try.’ I think he makes a very valuable argument in saying that if we talked more about what we liked online instead of ranting about what we hate it would be better and we’d be happier. And I agree.

I also agree with Mr. MacIver that we aren’t ‘obligated’ to do this and that it’s human nature to bitch about what we didn’t like more strongly than to praise what we did like. This is completely true. But I have another argument for that. Sometimes we really need to make more of an effort to transcend basic human nature. Not because we’re obligated too, but because it would make other people (and, I’d argue, ourselves) ultimately feel better to see postivity on online boards rather than negativity. Negativity and ugly online fights lead to anger and hurt feelings on all sides and everyone feels bad. Positivity allows everyone to feel they are giving something to and gaining something from discussions.

All of this is my opinion, and your mileage may vary. It’s true. And just in case my wordiness has obfuscated it when I said it back at the beginning, I agree that creators shouldn’t talk about the ‘obligations’ of fans and expect fans to kiss them on the mouth and love them forever more. Mr. Robinson’s column made me very angry too, and I disagree with his major gist. I do agree that the industry has problems and is not healthy, and that a ‘healthy industry model’ is necessary. But the health of an industry starts with the industry itself. We, as fans, can only /truly/ contribute to an industry’s health with the dollars in our wallets. Only the industry (publishers, distributors, and retailers) can do what is needed to spend those dollars in the best way for the industry after they part company with our wallets. Right now, that’s not being done, and creators who feel they deserve more support should consider whether the support they require can be most effectively provided by the fans or the industry.

Yeah, it is relevant. He cited himself as an example of what’s healthy about the comics industry, when his latest project stands as an example of everything that’s embarrassing, infantile, vulgar, sexist and destructive toward the industry.

Even if he had a valid point, which I believe he doesn’t, he is absolutely the wrong guy to try to make it, and the fact that he goes about it in about the most obnoxious and offensive way possible just invites ad hominem attacks.

Jimmie Robertson said: “You see I work with the “healthy industry” concept. I create books that fill a niche, or exploit existing trends. I self-published CYBERZONE when I didn’t see enough black female leads. I started at Image with AMANDA & GUNN because I didn’t see enough sci-fi. I switched to CODE BLUE when I didn’t see anything to match TV’s ER hospital drama. I changed to all-ages with EVIL & MALICE when not enough kid books were around. I sought out AVIGON back before manga was burning the sales charts. Nowadays, I’m working on BOMB QUEEN, which pokes fun at one aspect of the industry: Superheroes.”

I would argue that it is relevant when a large portion of his editorial focussed on the so-called “Healthy industry” concept and how he pimps out his resume in order to influence reader opinion.

I think it’s perfectly valid to criticized his work when he was the one who brought it up to validate his point.

What is relevant is that his view, which is clearly shared by several other professionals in the industry who commented, is fundamentally flawed. These professionals must understand that the rabid, insular fans they hear most loudly and probably most incessantly are little more than a vocal minority. There is a very large world outside of online fandom that needs to be witnessed.

It is easy to get people who read book to read comics; just hand them something they like. The “problem” for many creators is that often, people do not like comics in the “traditional” comics genres, or are only interested in reading the very best examples of those genres, and so do not become monthly consumers. This is bad for creators who, I suppose, are mostly interested in writing monthly comics.

But the fact of the matter is, unless you’ve got money to lose on your book, comics is a business. Any businessperson with a lick of sense knows that when you create a product that doesn’t sell, you change your operation until you’re producing something that doesn’t sell. It isn’t the audience’s responsibility to change their tastes and buying habits to conform to your desires as a creator.

I’m sure that’s a hard thing to hear if you’ve spent your entire life wanting nothing more than to write a comic book that comes out every month and delights fans like yourselves, but I firmly believe it’s true. The fans are changing; the industry needs to change with them and learn how to cater to readers with more diverse interests and less obsessive personalities.

My dad read Kingdom Come and Marvels when I got the TPBs; he loved the Alex Ross art. Both of my parents devoured my Bone omnibus. My cousins sneak my collections of Simpsons comics off the shelves when they visit. The problem isn’t getting people to try to comics. It’s that the majority of what the industry puts out is conforming to profoundly dated ideas of what comic books should be.

Being asked to do so isn’t too much. Being told to is. Being scolded and accused of not doing enough is obnoxious and rude. Being told that by a soft-core pornographer with delusions of competence is beyond the pale.

I want to second this. If I can get my mom, who threatened to throw away my funnybooks for years, to read Storm, Black Panther, Fables, Black Widow, and Kabuki, three books that are in very, very different genres, you can get anyone to read anything. The trick is gauging likes and dislikes before you go shoving things into people’s faces.

I also don’t see how being asked to evangelize a little is too much to ask. Telling people about cool books makes great watercooler conversation, in my mind. Sure, I paid the 2.99 for the printed book and that’s where my obligation stops. But, I think that if the creator gave me a fun ride, it isn’t too much trouble to tell other people about it.

A lot of people have this weird conception that comics are hated by mainstream America and complain about “Biff, Bam, Pow” style headlines. Know how to fix that? Get mainstream America reading comics like they used to.

Luckily, the industry has produced enough quality material, across a broad spectrum of genres, that there’s bound to be something out there for anyone. Admittedly, I’ve rarely shared superhero comics with non-readers (aside from a few issues of Starman), but superheroes make up just one corner of the comics universe (okay, maybe a few corners).

And, for whatever reason, I’ve always been flattered when people tell me a book I wrote appealed to their non-comic reading girlfriend, sister, father, brother or friend. For one thing, it means they’re sharing the love.

P.S. – Is there some drug people take before posting on message boards that causes them to foam at the mouth and piss on everyone else’s comments and thoughts?

Why would you assume that every comic shop is is like yours and that every fan puts their books in plastic bags in boxes and doesn’t lend them out?

I’d worry too dude, but it never happened.

Again, it never happened.

Really, it didn’t.

Some people liked it, some people didn’t (personally, I read a page in the shop, laughed, and put it back down. Funny, but not somthing I’d buy).
However, no one was calling it the new messiah. Maybe some people on your message board, but no one else. You’re the only person I’ve heard ever mention it in the same breath as Age Of Bronze.

As for fans owing more than the cost… no, no they don’t.
It’s called capitalism.
You want more people buying comics?
Then make better ones.
Morrison, Moore and Gaiman can sell in the millions – why not you?
Maybe as a creator, you’re not giving enough in exchange for the money you charge.
Stop blaming the fans for your professional failings.

Oh, and one last time, and everyone who thinks American comics are significant to the world – they make up less than 5% of the worlds comic book sales.
If Europe, Japan and South America can have raging industries – without people having to spread the word on behalf of cheap ass creators/companies that won’t spring for a some ads (gotta spend money to make money) – then is it really the fans fault that America can’t?

I read Robinson’s recent work in What If?, and although I thought it was an interesting concept, I didn’t buy it because I didn’t like the portrayal of the other heroes. They seemed like weaker, both physically and conceptually, incarnations of themselves. And honestly, the last thing comics need is more Wolverine.