Comic Book Resources

So is this just a rip off of the Ostrander Suicide Squad, or is there more to it? (I’ve only seen the preview pages with Bullseye.)

The basic set-up is very similar (a mixture of down-on-their luck heroes/reformed villains and hardcore criminals go on missions), but the handling of the set-up is drastically different.

Ostrander played Suicide Squad a good deal more straightforward than Ellis is playing the Thunderbolts.

What was it about Deodato’s art that you didn’t dig?

I’ve dropped The Thunderbolts with this issue. I think Ellis’ writing is obnoxious and this isn’t anywhere the same book I was reading and enjoying. It’s a separate idea that should have had a separate book. I don’t think Thunderbolts was selling so badly that it needed to have a huge change. Oh, well, with Joss Wheedon taking over Runways and Chris Claremont taking over Exiles, I will be only reading two Marvel books a month, X-Factor and Spidergirl. Let’s see if Marvel can soon make that none.

Conversely, I’ll be picking Thunderbolts up with this issue, and I haven’t bought an issue since Arcudi left tragically early. Glad to hear it’s got promise.

I was going to the shop to pick up the new issue of The Spirit, so I figure I’ll grab this too. It’s Warren Ellis writing a team of murderous super-villains working as “heroes” for the US government. I have to at least give that a chance, right?

And well-put comments regarding the use of continuity. I completely agree – continuity can definitely help enhance the depth of a story, but tends to often be misused to the point where the story is almost completely inaccessible to new or casual readers. Heavy continuity should only be used if it is to the benefit of the story itself, not as a “reward” for long-term fans.

…and then I realised that the new Spirit isn’t out until next week. I’ll pick up Thunderbolts then, I guess!

Like Arcudi’s series, this would be better off as a new title, I think. I liked the Busiek/Nicieza series, and don’t have much interest in this. Just can’t accept the premise that the Government would let the Venom, Goblin and Bullseye run around when they are so concerned about rogue superhumans. Oddly enough, I liked Suicide Squad. Different times, I guess.

I’m cautiously optimistic. I loved Nicieza’s first run, and Cable & Deadpool is one of my favorite current Marvel titles, but I’ve been kind of cold on New Thunderbolts. Hopefully this’ll be the shot in the arm it needs.

I’d been considering picking this up (I get pretty much anything by Warren Ellis, but this doesn’t especially interest me due to the mainstream Marvel/Civil War aspects), but I wasn’t sure. I think you’ve convinced me to at least give the first issue a try.

Never ever wanted to pick up Thunderbolts. Now I do.

I’ll keep up with Thunderbolts as long as they don’t try going back to that awful ‘fight club’ they switched to for awhile…

The image at the top is the first time I’ve seen a close-up of Penance, and it’s got me wondering…

exactly how does he see in that helmet, since it has no eyeholes? Or anything resembling eyeholes?

Hey, the “fight club” run was the first and so-far only good run that book had! It was interesting and human! And not drawn by Grummet, so that’s a plus.

And Loren, if Reed’s costume stretches with him, I see no problem in wondering how Penance sees. It’s superheroes, it’s all retarded.

Fair enough. But it still looks weird when the same image goes to the trouble of giving even Venom eyes.

“Fair enough. But it still looks weird when the same image goes to the trouble of giving even Venom eyes.”

But isn’t that what Venom looks like now, since they him into Scorpion (or changed Scorpion into Venom, or whatever)?

And you know, I was seriously considering buying this (the POWER of Ellis) untill I typed that last sentence… and remembered all over again why I don’t buy mainstream Superhero comics any more.

(Unless it’s Nextwave (which I’m not sure even counts as mainstream) or writtn by Grant Morrison, obviously)

What I don’t understand is why since the “leak” of the likeness policy, every other book at of Marvel now have obvious celebrity “homages”. In this book alone we have Tommy Lee Jones with the weird Osborne hair cut. There were a few others that are reaching but I mean every time Norman appeared it was so blatant I thought I was reading an adaptation of U.S. Marshalls.

Oh my gosh, I think Joe Rice is my counterpart from the anti-matter universe!

I liked all of Thunderbolts except Arcudi, and love Grummett’s art.

Joe, you don’t have a sinister goatee, do you?

I’ll admit, I’m still not thrilled about some of the characters being used. Lady Deathstrike? Emo Boy? Freakin’ Scorpion-Venom, one of Millar’s stupider ideas (no small feat, that)?

But none of them did anything this issue, so it’s all good. Ellis seems to have a good take on this, accepting and using the ludicrous elements without making it too goofy. And like Cronin said, he actually managed to make Jack Flag interesting, Grifter mask and all. Maybe I’ll be able to care about Lady Deathstrike after all.

Maybe the spikes over Penance’s eyes have tiny little holes, and he sees everything like looking through a microscope?

And the Arcudi run was ass squared.

How about “The same reason The Question and any other character without obvious eyeholes can see”?

“Maybe I’ll be able to care about Lady Deathstrike after all. ”

If she ever actually appears, anyway.

How about “The same reason The Question and any other character without obvious eyeholes can see”?

I think it’s the fact that Penance’s mask appears to be metal (and black metal at that) that makes it seem different. Imagine Iron Man’s suit without eyeholes.

Incidentally, I take it that Speedball’s new powers involve some kind of serious healing factor? Because otherwise, any strenuous activity in that suit might as well kill him.

Okay… it’s like a tinted window done up to seamlessly blend in with the rest of the mask. Probably the same stuff Swordsman’s mask is made of.

Apologies if this turns out long, but…

This whole issue made no sense to me.

I mean, first, let’s start out with the plausibility issue, because that’s what made the actual comic make no sense to me. I can accept the idea that the government is handing out pardons to hardened criminals in exchange for their help in tracking down rogue superhumans. But PUBLICIZING it? These aren’t guys like Captain Cold in the Suicide Squad, who are mostly known for robbery. Venom killed a dozen cops not two weeks ago (in Marvel time), told everyone he did it (he even mentioned the words “book deal”), and now the government is publicly announcing him as part of their new super-team? (I was going to use a “?!”, but I realized there aren’t enough exclamation marks in the world to cover my incredulity at that one.) The Green Goblin dropped a teenage girl off a bridge for kicks. There aren’t enough spin doctors in the world to make this team palatable to the general public. It’d be like Nixon putting Charles Manson in charge of a squad to hunt down draft dodgers. And then selling action figures of him.

(And not to mention, why is the government going to all this trouble, throwing around all this money, and granting these huge favors to this group to hunt down rogue super-heroes? Let’s face it, their combined record against super-heroes is 0-(God Knows How Many), none of them have notched up even a single win against a reputable super-hero, and the current Swordsman got his butt whipped by a girl’s school field-hockey team. Hiring super-villains to hunt down super-heroes is like hiring mice to hunt cats.)

Which all brings me to the real reason this makes no sense to me…who the heck is this comic aimed at? The very concept of the comic screams “misbegotten”–it’s a comic about supervillains hunting super-heroes. These are the same characters that Marvel has spent years and years of time and millions and millions of dollars branding as “the guys you root against”, and now they want readers to cheer them on. Why? The comic gives no reason as to why I, the reader, should want to follow the adventures of Norman Osborn and his group. Norman Osborn is a guy I want to see punched in the face repeatedly, and the book doesn’t seem to be heading for that. It’s not aimed at fans of Thunderbolts, either–this is another revamp that chucks out the vast majority of the cast that people have been following over the last decade or so. (Like that last Thunderbolts revamp…you know, the one that got cancelled?) The only conceivable selling point seems to be a mix of “Warren Ellis” and “morbid curiousity”, but given that Ellis’ track record suggests he’ll do a year or two and get bored, and given how quickly morbid curiousity fades, I can’t see how they’d have done a better job at killing the book if they went to an all-nude Maggie Thatcher pinup format.

Seriously, the only way this makes sense to me is if Quesada wanted the book gone, but sales were too high to justify killing it.

Yeah, I’ve gotta admit…as cheerfully contrived and absurd as even the most basic elements of most superhero comics are, Thunderbolts has always been one of the thinner premises. To the extent that it works, it works by virtue of being pure “inside baseball” for the hardcore fanbase; any spiinoff “villain book” does.

Taken from that perspective, this is a canny revamp in a way that the Arcudi stuff – whatever its artistic merits and demerits — wasn’t. But it’s still absurd, and it seems increasingly clear to me that this will be another of Warren Ellis’s work-for-hire books in which he labors mightily to do something passably entertaining with idiotic editorially-directed plot elements. Bullseye as a media darling? Norman Osborn still being taken so bloody seriously after 40-odd years of throwing exploding pumpkins and dressing in the least visually effective major villain costume in history? Penance, the hideous love child of a subpar Image book from 1994 and any given issue of Evil Ernie?

No, I’ll pass, thanks.

“Seriously, the only way this makes sense to me is if Quesada wanted the book gone, but sales were too high to justify killing it.”

Except you hopefully realize that that’s just ridiculous, right?

Poeple like Venom, people like Bullseye. Not LIKE-them like them, but like-to-hate-them like them. And they’ll like to see them kill doofuses like Jack Flagg and Steel Spider, whom nobody likes. Protagonists don’t always have to be good guys.

Throw in three members from when the team was “heroic”, and the fact that Ellis is a very canny storyteller, and there should be no confusion as to why this book’s premise would have an audience.

Actually, there have been times in the past where that’s happened–it was covered on this very blog, how editors kept resisting giving Venom an unlimited series because they didn’t like the idea, and eventually used fading limited series sales to kill it.

But no, I’m not seriously suggesting that Joe Quesada has a vendetta against the Thunderbolts. I am seriously suggesting, however, that this is a creative misstep. Marvel believes, like you, that there is an audience for “The Adventures of Bullseye, Venom (2.0) and the Green Goblin As They Beat Up On Lame Super-Heroes”. I very, very strongly suspect that they’re wrong, and that while there’s going to be a short-term sales boost (because Warren Ellis’ name sells comics, make no mistake), I think that this concept isn’t going to sell well without a high-profile creator to float it…

And that Warren Ellis is noted for not staying on super-hero books for long.

I would think the Rainbow Raider, Clock King, or Crazy Quilt have less “visually effective” costumes.

“But it’s still absurd, and it seems increasingly clear to me that this will be another of Warren Ellis’s work-for-hire books in which he labors mightily to do something passably entertaining with idiotic editorially-directed plot elements.”

Dude, Ellis doesn’t labour on work for hire books, he phones it in. He hasn’t worked hard on a work for hire since he first made his name.

“and there should be no confusion as to why this book’s premise would have an audience.”

Because super hero fans have no taste or class what so ever?
I’m not against the book or anything, but this book just screams editor’s retreat idea.
‘Hey, remember how we boosted sales by making the Avengers just like Morrison’s JLA? Let’s do it again, but with villains!’.

And who is Penance?

Penance is the former Speedball.

“Penance is the former Speedball. ”

Why is Speedball now Penance?

“Because super hero fans have no taste or class what so ever?”

I dunno, I’ll have to ask at the next national meeting.

Although the answer will probably end up being something along the lines of…and prepare yourself for a SHOCK, now…that we all just like different ideas being explored.

As unclassy a proposition as that may sound.

FunkyGreenJerusalem said:

“Dude, Ellis doesn’t labour on work for hire books, he phones it in. He hasn’t worked hard on a work for hire since he first made his name.”

But at least he’s honest about it. I was at DragonCon when someone asked him about why he did Ultimate FF, and his response was, “I dunno, I mostly wrote that with my hindbrain.” He then went on to explain that it was mainly a favor for on overworked Millar.

Most of the time, according to him, if he’s doing a work-for-hire book it’s to work with a specific artist who has a yen for a specific character.

As to why Speedball is now Penance: He apparently feels very badly about Stamford, and by sheerest coincidence his powers have now altered so that instead of being activated by external kinetic energy (ie, impacts), they’re now activated by internal kinetic energy (ie, something actually being moved around inside his flesh). So he’s designed a new costume with all sorts of jagged spikes on the inside (one for every person who died at Stamford) that poke and jab at him whenever he moves, activating his powers. Presumably, Thunderbolts #113 is about him keeling over dead of blood loss.

“But at least he’s honest about it. I was at DragonCon when someone asked him about why he did Ultimate FF, and his response was, “I dunno, I mostly wrote that with my hindbrain.” He then went on to explain that it was mainly a favor for on overworked Millar.

Most of the time, according to him, if he’s doing a work-for-hire book it’s to work with a specific artist who has a yen for a specific character.”

So it’s cool that he admits to phoning it in?
Doesn’t that make buying an Ellis book a rather risky proposition?
It makes me miss the days where he made me look forward to the next StormWatch or DV8 (and left me still re-reading them years later).

“As unclassy a proposition as that may sound. ”

Why can’t you all have my taste?
The world would be better for it!

“As to why Speedball is now Penance: He apparently feels very badly about Stamford, and by sheerest coincidence his powers have now altered so that instead of being activated by external kinetic energy (ie, impacts), they’re now activated by internal kinetic energy (ie, something actually being moved around inside his flesh). So he’s designed a new costume with all sorts of jagged spikes on the inside (one for every person who died at Stamford) that poke and jab at him whenever he moves, activating his powers. Presumably, Thunderbolts #113 is about him keeling over dead of blood loss.”

Having read nothing to do with Civil War (except articles/reviews/comments on the net) this sounds like a terrible idea.
One of those ideas that’s cool in a Kingdom Come type book, but in an ongoing… it feels, to me, a bit like Watchmen came out last year and so this year we are trying to make superheroes more ‘grown up’.

“it feels, to me, a bit like Watchmen came out last year and so this year we are trying to make superheroes more ‘grown up’.”

That more or less summarizes the last 21 years of superhero comics.

“That more or less summarizes the last 21 years of superhero comics.”

True.
However if you go to Newsarama and read last weeks Joe Friday, Quesada talks about how great it is to take a Peter Parker character and make them dark and edgy.
All I could think about was how great it was in the 90′s when they did that with every character.
Hell, remember when Peter Parker decided to stop being Spiderman and was just ‘The Spider’? AWESOME!

Crossovers, characters becoming grim ‘n’ gritty… it’s all just a little bit of history repeating.
Perhaps comics are like Britpop (or any other music movement) from the 90′s, and after a brief revival and goodness from the big two, they’ve hit the cocaine.

I also find it funny, as the other day I picked up the new Blue Beetle trade, another revamp character from a crossover, and it was great.
They just brushed the crossover aside (I still have no intrest in reading it), and have made a fun and light hearted book – one that revials Ultimate Spiderman and even Invincible.
That excited me a lot more than some dude in a bondage get up.

Hell, remember when Peter Parker decided to stop being Spiderman and was just ‘The Spider’? AWESOME!

I realize that you’re probably being sarcastic here, but that actually was kind of cool, in hindsight at the very least. It was a fascinating glimpse at what happens when Spider-Man stops laughing and loses any trace of his upbeat nature. I talk about it a little here.

I’ll quote (edited for length) from my conclusion here:

He’s using Spider-Man as an escape from his problems, but it isn’t working. He mentions in one scene that maybe Aunt May and Uncle Ben did too good of a job raising him. He can’t shut out Peter Parker like he wants. Peter is too insistent, too honorable. [snip]

Peter comes back up, once again. He can’t stay away, because he is the reason why “The Spider” even exists in the first place. He’s the core.

This is way, way better than Batman’s “Bruce Wayne is a mask” crap. That was Batman being a jerk. This is Peter Parker being human. Everyone wishes that they could just lock away the pain and hurt. Peter has a unique way to get away from it, but no less unhealthy than our normal ways. At the end of all this, he’s going to sit down, reassess, and stay human. He’s going to stay Parker.

Check it out if you’re interested.

The difference between Penance and Spidey, though, is that Spidey came out of the other side of this smarter. Penance came out of it with a bunch of gross infected wounds inside his suit.