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Apparently, two words from Cap are more persuasive to the heroes than long speeches and arguments from Stark, Reed, and the rest.

For the sake of comparison, here's Whedon's suggested ending:

http://whedonesque.com/comments/12541#163927

I'm a bit confused, Ian. Isn't Whedon's suggestion the one they USED?

Yeah, I'm tired of crossover mini's that don't find a way to tell a complete, coherent story by itself.

And lord, this sounds so contrived.

Oh no, some buildings fell over! Quick, give up!

...argh.

Sadly, I predicted the final issue would (for all its huffing and puffing) end up as a mindless punch up between idiots in spandex. What I couldn't have predicted was the ultra-lame way that the punch up would finish.

9 / 11 heroes charging in to wrestle Captain America down to the ground?

Wrestle Captain America to the ground, and basically give us some weirdo, convoluted message that State control is better for all because its for the safety of the kids, man, so please cease and desist with all independent thought and any objections to anything the state might come up with.

Because its for the good of the people.

You don't want to disagree with the 9 / 11 heroes, do you? DO YOU? HMMM?!?

....oh man, who comes up with this stuff?

At any rate, another (vaguely) promising mega-event crossover bites the dust with a stupid punch up. Just once, I'd like to see a big mega-event crossover end with something other than a crossover.

Please God, please. I'll be good, I promise.

...and by "crossover", I obviously meant "punchup". Though that typo is actually staggeringly accurate.

Countdown, anyone?

I’m a bit confused, Ian. Isn’t Whedon’s suggestion the one they USED?

Evidently not. The actual ending and Whedon's suggestion share some similarities, but Whedon's didn't include an emo breakdown after a building got bashed up.

I know this...

I cried for exactly 93 minutes after I read Civil War #7

I couldn't have been more disappointed. It was one of the most anticlimactic endings in comic history.

At least we can be happy that it didn't end with the Scarlet Witch erasing everyone’s minds (or some alternate reality junk).

Richard
http://1rightopinion-comics.blogspot.com/

It's really hard to imagine a "universe," or, for that matter, an editorial regime in which Civil War #7 and Thunderbolts #111 are meant to be in any way tonally or thematically consistent with one another.

Then again, it's sort of hard to imagine a competent writer for whom putting a guy who creates killer god-clones, hates due process, and sends psychotic murderers to go after anyone who breaks rank in charge of a superhuman army is a happy ending -- or, as Millar supposedly posted at his site, means that "the right side won."

Any side with Venom on it is not the right side.

The more I read, the more it sounds like they started this without knowing how they would end it. That's so, so.... Marvel.

I agree with all the criticisms and then some. This issue could have been written by the Republican neocons. What's worse, it's terrible writing, as most propaganda tends to be.

So now the American Marvel Superhero universe is firmly under the control of the government, "enemies of the state" are banished to eternal prison without due process and for unspecified crimes, and of course it's all OK because, hey, the people can now sleep secure.

And the "ordinary citizen" turning on Cap and he suddenly surrenders after noticing that - gasp! - stuff gets destroyed in a battle? It simply doesn't make sense. Talk about your bad writing.

But the copout that really made me sick was the, "It's not Captain America being arrested" line. That was a direct insult to every reader and Marvel should be ashamed of themselves. Captain America is not a uniform. Captain America is a heroic man of unshakable moral character, and that's who now sits in prison. What sort of warped mind actually wrote this sick issue?

No, Marvel took an interesting concept and managed to twist it into some perverse version of Amerika. And people wonder why comics have declined since the big companies decided it's all about Big Business.

Oh no, Jerry C. You wrote "Republican neocons." That means T. will show up soon to say something to refute you! Where are you, T.? You've been invoked!

Look on the bright side. It's finally over.
No more cross-overs. No more tie-ins (except for a few).

Now, if Marvel can only just get the final issue ULTIMATES 2 out sooner than later instead of dickering around with Civil War, I'd be a very happy guy.

You know, Reed's letter is even funnier when read in Stephen Colbert's voice (Venture Bros fans will get that).

This has got to be the worst crossovers I've ever read. The Marvel Universe just went up on the 'Dead to Me' board.

Nothing is funny in Stephen Colbert's voice. Including his "jokes."

I can't refute that criticism, Greg, as it really just didn't make any kind of sense in the first place.

I posted the following on Millar's forum. I think I was being VERY GENEROUS with my interpretation of the ending, but we are trying to be positive here:

"I think fans are most upset about Civil War, because the good guys, embodied in Captain America, not only lost, but they gave up. They capitulated to unconstitutional, fascist measures instituted by a manipulative, war profiteering blue blood for the illusion of security and peace.

Of course, Millar’s drawing an analogy to the whole 9/11/War on Terra/Iraq War debacle, but I think Millar is commenting on America from an outsider’s perspective. He obviously loves America and American culture, but I think, deep down he’s perplexed and saddened that America, when faced by grave INTERNAL threats to our civil liberties and national identity as a force for good in the world, we basically did give up.

We didn’t fight and and scream, "Iraq has NOTHING to do with the 9/11! Stop saying it does!" We didn't deluge our legislators and president with phone calls and letters, and say picking this fight is not a legitimate, rational response to the very threat of terrorism. We didn’t march in the streets and say “No!” to the PATRIOT Act. We didn’t riot when Congress stripped away habeas corpus protections. We mounted perfunctory opposition, then caved, and tried to pretend that this is the way things should be.

Fans are complaining because Capt. America stupidly takes the final battle to the densely populated island of Manhattan, instead of duking it out on some abandoned stretch of desert in Utah. I’m sure in Millar’s mind that decision made perfect sense, because that’s where our real national nightmare started.

From the start, comic fans seemed confused how a single, tragic event could lead to such a disproportionate, wrong-headed and inane policy. Comic fans are at a loss to explain how powerful figures who are supposed to protect us, figures who we are supposed to trust and believe in, could act in such craven, shameful ways. Deep down, comic fans are so angry because "The Good Guys" lost in such a pathetic way to a threat they should have easily beaten. I bet Millar’s looking across the ocean and saying, 'Yeah. I agree.'"

Even if that's the case, it hardly seems the appropriate place for a political allegory. Maybe if he'd been given some kind of What If? comic outside the main Marvelverse, but you shouldn't take characters people love and that you didn't even create and screw them up so you can make a statement.

The ending to this would suggest that if Captain America was tackled by some German civilians, he would have surrendered during WWII because people were getting hurt.

Remember, they weren't JUST "ordinary civilians".

They were the 9 / 11 All-Stars! No way was the artist formerly known as America ever going to punch a collection of firemen and cops (or whatever it was) in the face and carry on rocking with Iron Man.

Awesomely contrived emotional blackmail by the writer ftw!

Re-reading this made me feel like I was being given the rubber glove treatment at an airport by homeland security upon every turn of the page. I'm only surprised a tag with "your bag was opened and searched for security purposes" didn't fall out of the comic.

Whedon's suggestion is different in that the turning point is Cap realizing he's beating the snot out of Tony... someone who, out of armor, is just a Normal Guy. It has nothing to do with being stopped by Emergnecy workers (I don't buy the whole "Heroes of 9/11" argument, because what non-super people are going to be close enough to intervene? Cops and firefighters. That's who would be there.) or destroyed buildings. I had, I think, more to do with Cap seeing in himself the same thing he admonished The Punisher for in #6.

"(I don’t buy the whole “Heroes of 9/11″ argument, because what non-super people are going to be close enough to intervene? Cops and firefighters. That’s who would be there.)"

..see, I don't buy this either, because quite frankly - considering what's going on at the time they bumrush Captain America - they'd have likely been smashed to pieces by falling masonry or zapped by any number of a zillion stray laser beams / heat vision / whatever before they'd manage to get anywhere NEAR him.

Let's face it, "ordinary" people racing towards a big pile of super powered beings going absolutely crazy = DEAD IN 30 SECONDS OR YOUR MONEY BACK!

It would be utter madness for them to even attempt it, unless they were specifically being invoked by the writer as the modern-day "ultimate example" of the common man - a bunch of cops and firefighters. they're so obviously supposed to be a symbol of George Bushes war on terror (and why that war is right, right, right dammit, stop causing trouble you free-thinking radicals!) it hurts.

And they'd have to be pretty FAR from common in any case to manage to get near Captain America in all that carnage and jump all over his head.

Civil War was not like some Infiniti Crisis, meant to end up in a one knotch, Civil War is the beginning of a whole new era, which it handle OK.

"Civil War was not like some Infiniti Crisis, meant to end up in a one knotch, Civil War is the beginning of a whole new era, which it handle OK."

How is Infinite Crisis supposed to tie up neatly in one go, when all it really does is set the scene for both 52, One Year Later and any number of a zillion spin offs and continuations of the all new status quo?

I'm pretty sure this "whole new era" will be ditched as quickly as it arrived, when someone at Marvel realises that

a) Captain America just turned into a big loser that sells his friends out and just gives up when random chumps jump on his head and

b) Iron Man just because the most hopelessly useless "hero" that ever lived, and the character has been irrevocably tarnished forever.

That's an awesome "new era" we've got to look forward to!

Hey, with Punisher picking up Cap's mask at the end, maybe he'll become the new Captain America and just start killing all of Iron Man's fascist buddies!

"Hey, with Punisher picking up Cap’s mask at the end, maybe he’ll become the new Captain America and just start killing all of Iron Man’s fascist buddies!"

....with extra-ironic helpings of Punisher-Style Fascism!

Make Mine Marvel!!!!!

Ridiculous jingoism and non-sensical storytelling. I'm glad I dropped this, as I was already burned once by Infinite Crisis.

Is this the BEST Marvel has to offer?

Civil War was not like some Infiniti Crisis, meant to end up in a one knotch, Civil War is the beginning of a whole new era, which it handle OK.

Yeah, Morten, I would definitely have to disagree with that, as that does seem to be what Infinite Crisis did as well (set up a "new era").

That being said, yes, Civil War #7 basically was like a catalog for future Marvel comics, which I mentioned above - and that does not make for a good comic book.

Whedon’s suggestion is different in that the turning point is Cap realizing he’s beating the snot out of Tony… someone who, out of armor, is just a Normal Guy. It has nothing to do with being stopped by Emergnecy workers (I don’t buy the whole “Heroes of 9/11″ argument, because what non-super people are going to be close enough to intervene? Cops and firefighters. That’s who would be there.) or destroyed buildings. I had, I think, more to do with Cap seeing in himself the same thing he admonished The Punisher for in #6.

Ah, I see, Marshall (and I suppose, to the same extent, Ian). That makes sense. I don't see that as being a significant enough departure from Whedon's suggestion, which I took more as "Cap wins the battle, but realizes he is wrong, so surrenders, thus losing the war." HOW Cap realizes he is wrong was not a big deal to me, but I can certainly see how you (and Ian, and I am sure others) feel that it is a significant difference between deciding it on his own and deciding it due to the interference of civilians.

"but I can certainly see how you (and Ian, and I am sure others) feel that it is a significant difference between deciding it on his own and deciding it due to the interference of civilians."

...though to be fair, being bumrushed by the cast of 9-11: The Musical probably didn't help Captain America any.

Deep down, comic fans are so angry because “The Good Guys” lost in such a pathetic way to a threat they should have easily beaten. I bet Millar’s looking across the ocean and saying, ‘Yeah. I agree.’”

Really? Because I bet he's looking across the ocean and saying, "I'm RICH, bitch!!"

Reed Richards, "This is what it sounds like
when Nerds cry".

Deep down, comic fans are so angry because “The Good Guys” lost in such a pathetic way to a threat they should have easily beaten. I bet Millar’s looking across the ocean and saying, ‘Yeah. I agree.’”

Really? Because I bet he’s looking across the ocean and saying, “I’m RICH, bitch!!”

Hey, I said I was being "VERY GENEROUS" with my interpretation. To consider that this wasn't Millar's intent, to think that Millar's hamfisted political metaphors didn't hide a more subversive, challenging allegory...that...that, my friends, would surely drive me to madness.

"You shouldn’t take characters people love and that you didn’t even create and screw them up so you can make a statement."

Why not? Isn't that sort of intimate with the idea of collaborative fiction? It's not like we're talking The Continuing Adventures of Darcy and Elizabeth or Double Indemnity II or other Stand Alones that were never meant find further expression.

Ostensibly, the purpose of keeping these characters in print is to tell new stories with them. And new stories implies change to the status quo. So really, why shouldn't creators take characters (and especially the ones people love) and play around with them, have them grow, change, die, and generally just explore what there is for them to explore?

I think the bigger problem is that there isn't enough exploration. That there isn't enough screwing with the characters lives. That there too often a simple return to status quo. That there's too often a return of all the toys back into the box.

I think that's why people outgrow comics.

Millar is easily the most punchably smug writer in comics. In his recent Newsarama interview, Millar goes on about how Iron Man is totally awesome and how if the Marvel Universe was real (OMG!) he'd be marching against super heroes because, you know, children. So I don't think he's trying to make some sort of allegory about how Americans are willing to give away their liberty for security, I think he's just THAT dense when it comes to political and social issues.

Some commonly used words and phrases from recent issues of the most popular comic blogs (and the characters or events responsible):

skank, whore, douchebag, fucking, moron (DC's Supergirl)

superboy punch, worst ever, insulting to my intelligence, dark, twisted, insane, pointless, crossover fatigue, parody is WAY better than the real issue (DC's Infinite Crisis)

baffling, not what I pay money for, crap, shit art, weird, hack (Batman the interminable novel issue)

dropping all, big two have lost it, implosion, disrespectful, no idea of what he is writing, hack, second rater, all about the $$$ (too many to list)

ALL OF THE ABOVE [seriously, no kidding check for yourself]: Marvel's CIVIL WAR.

joffe, to be honest i think most fans who claim to be anti-registration would, in real life, be on Tony Stark's side. Look at how many people are pro gun registration for example.

The problem with the gun/WMD analogy is that these are people. For the most part, really decent people who never kill and have saved the lives of the insanely ungrateful population time and time and time again. Referring to superheroes as "living WMDs" is pretty damn insulting and a gross oversimplification created by writers who are smug beyond words about how much cooler and cleverer they are than other people who read funnybooks. We superhero fans have always been against the Mutant Registration Act, so why is anyone supporting the same thing, except worse, with the addition of a permanent draft or imprisonment without trial?

Jesse, many gun owners are people....really decent people who never kill (regular gun-owning citizens) and have saved the lives of the insanely ungrateful population time and time again (look at cops and the military). Yet people want guns regulated more and more. I don't think it's that outrageous an analogy.

I wasn't really attacking you when I said all that, T. I am more annoyed by the argument about superheroes being living WMDs, which I find stupid and inaccurate. But since you bring it up, gun owners aren't automatically drafted or thrown in prison without trial. Also, a person can choose to have a gun or not. In most cases, superheroes can't choose to get rid of their powers.

I might hate the SHRA a lot less if it had any concern for civil liberties, but you can chalk that up to either the fascism of the Marvel Universe or Mark Millar's inability to think things through. As it is, it's really really bad.

The idea of registration winning is fine, I think T.'s gun registration analogy stacks up really well. People who are believed to be dangerous are expected to register their locations often enough in real life, just look at the sex offender registration controversies. Yes, it is quite creepy to tell a story that compares superheroes to sex offenders, but Marvel should've thought about that before they let the genie out of the bottle.

Civil War's problem overall is not plot; if you simply rattled off the plot points without context, you would have an acceptable if perhaps not brilliant piece of pulp fiction. The problem is how the plot points are reached... y'know, the story. I think there's so much outrage because Civil War takes an idea of amazing potential in and of itself, and pisses it away in favor of meaningless hysterics and utterly disorganized shunting of major plot points into minor spin-offs books. Event books and giant interlocking storylines could be good for sales (and even make for good comics) if only they were competently edited, which by and large they are not.

All the various tortured metaphors and interpretative schemes point at a simple fact: superheroes can't bear that much reality without breaking. It's possible to tell dense, complex, interesting stories about the impact of people with superpowers on the world and how the world might respond to them (not that Civil War any of these things)...but you lose the hero part along the way. Superheroes are figures of fantasy; they can only exist in worlds that are simpler than ours and filled with properties ours doesn't have, including an objective morality that almost everyone can intuitively recognize reliably. If there is no generally known standard of good and evil, then "superhero" itself is a meaningless, arbitrary category.

None of this means that superheroes have to be stupid or childish. It only means that they can't be realistic in particular ways. Unrealistic genres can actually be faithful to some emotional truths in ways that more realistic ones can't because our inner lifes aren't all that subject to realistic constraints either. We wish, hope, and fear things on a scale that reality itself can't accommodate, and it takes external constraints like the ones economists and sociologists study to tie our inner lives down to what reality can handle. Stories that let some of those hopes and fears out into the surrounding world can tell us true and important things about what's normally locked up inside. "With great power comes great responsibility" gets all muddled in reality, but as the drive for a character in a world where there's more scope to try for it, it's pure gold. Ditto for a lot of other classic motifs, from "My enemy, my ally!" to "In brightest day, in darkest night..." These can be the fodder for great stories for adults and children alike.

What we've got here is the worst of both worlds, really: far too much reality to let heroes remain heroic (admirable, role models, inspirations, anything of the sort), but far too much power fantasy to say anything interesting about real life. Real-world debate about the proper role of authority and governance isn't about people given super-strength by radioactive spiders, and nobody in a position of official or unofficial leadership was ever a frozen and thawed super-soldier of half a century ago. They aren't good metaphors for guns or sex offenders or anything else in the real world - they're only expressions of things inside us. It's not even like trying to eat soup with your shoe instead of a spoon; it's more like trying to eat soup with the barrel of a pistol. You won't get a good meal, and afterward the gun is likely to not fire as best it might.

Honestly T, I think "who's side would you be on?" is kind of a bullshit question. I mean, these are people with magic science powers. Sure, if tomorrow suddenly a few people grew laser wings or zombie breath then I might be in favor of legislation. But if I was part of a world that was basicly the petri dish for every giant robot god and alien reptile people in the universe? A world were this stuff happened every week since before I was born? Who's to say, and more importantly why should I be asking myself these questions and not just reading a fun comic? My point isn't "rar, registration bad" its "Millar has the political understanding of a twelve-year old" and "we need less of that and more of sassy robots fighting moon monsters and learning how to love again" and probably a little bit of "hell I'd probably even read these dang whiny pretend-mature comics they're making if they at least weren't so gosh darned DULL".

Sign me up for sassy robot stories, please.

"...more of sassy robots fighting moon monsters and learning how to love again” and probably a little bit of “hell I’d probably even read these dang whiny pretend-mature comics they’re making if they at least weren’t so gosh darned DULL”."

This is perhaps the most important point that's being overlooked. That the book ended with Tony and the government winning isn't what makes it bad; it's how it ended was simply bad writing and seemingly no editing at all to improve it! It's like Darth Vader not only winning in the end, but that the good guys surrender and tell each other that the dark force was right all along. It's like the pig being roasted for dinner after Charlotte's work. It's breaking the trust of the audience by completely changing the ground rules simply to make a point or shock value.

Comic books are escapism. Of course it's a totally fantasy world with it's own rules and superheros with or without powers would never work in the "real world" society. The entire Civil War story states the obvious. Big whoop. I read comics today for the exact same reason I loved them as a young boy. They were exciting, interesting stories that allowed me to escape to a world where the bully got what he deserved for a change and all these other cliches we were told about Truth, Justice, and the American Way were somehow real.

A small amount of reality is good for the characters in the story. Giving Spiderman familiar problems helps us identify with him. But Marvel just turned their entire world into the very thing we're reading the books to escape from. It's not that the grand idea of individual liberty and justice is being trampled on, it's that our heroes are the ones responsible for it and enforcing it. That's bad writing.

Eh. They'll probably fix it (into an awe inspiring story of hope) for the hardcover.

Jesse, many gun owners are people….really decent people who never kill (regular gun-owning citizens) and have saved the lives of the insanely ungrateful population time and time again (look at cops and the military). Yet people want guns regulated more and more. I don’t think it’s that outrageous an analogy.

It's not outrageous, but there's a flaw -- at least as you present the analogy here. Though it's written in such a way that you seem to conflate the two groups of gun-owners you wish to look at here, your "really decent people who never kill" and your "cops and the military" are two separate groups (though one would hope there is also real decency in the police force and the military). No gun control group that I'm aware of is interested in regulating the guns of police officers and soldiers, who are -- to my mind -- far more analogous to superheroes than would be a guy with a .38 up on a high shelf of his closet.

Mike, I was referring to those groups that are always trying to hamstring the cops and the military. There are plenty of groups that consider themselves police and military watchdogs. One group walks around Bed-Stuy for example with video cameras just to record cops in the area and videotape them whenever they make arrests in anticipation of anything they can call police brutality. They ask for badge numbers and disrupt arrests, and two members were arrested last year for interfering with arrests, which caused them to cry...you guessed it...police brutality. My police friends also complain that the civilian commision review board, created as a civilian check on police authority, has also become drunk on power and affected how cops carry out their jobs in a negative way.

Then you can look at all those military protestors or the college campuses that refuse to allow the military to visit or recruit, even though one could argue they're "free riding" because they reap the benefits of a strong military (freedom from invasion, internal peace).

There are protestors and political figures who, while not trying to take guns away from cops and military, do make every effort they can to control and limit how cops USE those guns. That's why I conflated police and military into my gun analogy.

Mind you, I'm not defending Civil War. Even though I think the gun analogy works, I think Civil War approached the subject horribly.

Well, while I think the rights watch issues are a good deal more complex than that -- personally, I'm more happy than not to know that groups (however imperfect) are doing their best to ensure that abuse of power is documented when it occurs, and therefore subject to prosecution, as it should be -- I still have to give you points for writing a four-paragraph post far more nuanced and thoughtful than the entirety of Civil War, T.

What makes CW suck so hard is the way it has crapped on nearly every hero in the MU. And screwed up their solo books. And not resolved anything so the CW spinoffs can continue to screw things up for the forseeable future.
This might have made a great elseworlds tale, where all the little inconsistencies can be pushed aside to tell the story. Instead, drawing it out over so many books, they've magnified they flaws enormously.

You don't see gun owners being thrown into Gitmo for refusing to be drafted into the army, though, do you? "Registration" is so not the problem, here.

I can honestly say that i have never been as close to throwing my hands up in the air, stop collecting comics, and releaving myself on an entire creative medium as i am after Civil War. Where does one start to critisize this excuse for storytelling? How about with these words. . . . STAY IN YOUR OWN FUCKING SANDBOX!!!!!! Last year we had a guy that writes the Avengers, Ultimate Spidey, and Daredevil (all titles that i love btw) tell a world altering story dealing with. . . .the X-Men? and it turns out to be complete crap and ruins my X-Men. thanks. and in typical Marvel fashion the next big event rolls around and they let a guy that mainly plays in the Ultimate sandbox write THE Universe altering story for years to come. . . in the regular Marvel U. stick to what you know and stop trying to overextend yourself, douchebags! try letting someone who knows the characters tell their story, because Millar OBVIOUSLY has no frickan clue about what makes these characters tick. or what makes America tick for that matter, especially New Yorkers. The last scenes from Civil War 7 would NEVER have happen. lets use our powers of disbilief (you know, that thing that youre SUPPOSED to use while reading comics in the first place instead of saying "well this is what would happen in the real world") and say that the most brilliant military tactician since Alexander the Great had a brain fart and, not only teleported his team into midtown, but had them stay and fight. lets pretend that wasnt out of character. ok now that that is done skip to Cap raising his shield over Iron Suck. and what happens next. . . . . i have no clue, but it sure as hell does not involve any NYPD, NYFD, or any other new york civil servant tackling Cap! lets look at the sides; Iron Douche and most of the heavy hitters or Captain AMERICA and the street level guys. the NEW YORK street level guys. the boys from the fucking neighborhood!!!! the guy who is gonna be the one that actually saves you or your grandmother, who is to damn stubborn to move out of the old neighborhood no matter how bad its getting because "Good folks still live here", from a mugger. who is a part of where you are from. who might be Jimmy from down the street that you played ball with as a kid. Now i dont know if any of you are from the New York area but you sure as hell arent siding with a Billionaire in a robot suit against a guy from the neighborhood. even if hes going against the law, because its a dumb law anyway. so fuck him, fuck the government, and fuck you if youre with them. and dont even compare stamford to 9/11. look one of the great things about new yorkers is that if something bad happens in our back yard we band together. so the guys that tackled Cap would be in reality holding down Stark just to make sure the shield found its mark. but on the flipside New Yorkers are somewhat self centered. look at Katrina. there was some help but not the help that should have been given. so the reality would have been "where the fuck is Stamford"? all im asking is write character, not plot based story lines. because when you do (and when your talent isnt all that great anyway) the characters ring hollow and the story will suffer. and if i lived in the Marvel U you better beleive that id be raging against the SHRA, because someone has to fight for the little guy and it isnt our government.