Personally, I agree that writers without fan influence work better than writers who constantly listen to the messageboards, but they also tend to get full of themselves and take the character places that the main fanbase is lost. Is Winick listening to fans? Is that how Trials of Shazam got created? I just figured it was the complete opposite. (Though, thinking about it, there probably is more of a move by comic fans to make everything darker).

Yeah, many writers today are “fanboys” (Geoff Johns anyone?) And yes, they seem to be writing Fanfic to an extent. While that isn’t by any means the same level that had been seen previously in comics, I’d be lying if I said that I was enjoying the new JSA.

So in conclusion. I dont know. Ha. I guess I proved your point with the first paragraph of my first post. I came out in support of the Death of Robin because of the fan interaction, yet said I hated the story. I guess that proves it.

I would really like to hear Greg’s opinion on all of this.

Really that’s a whole ‘nother column. But the short version is that the fun fan-involvement things you cite from the heyday of Stan and Merry Marvel have morphed into something really kind of unpleasant, and on the whole have been bad for comics. The insane levels of today’s fan rage and arrogant entitlement you see all over the fan press and on the internet sprouted from that, and editorial decisions meant to either placate fans or anger them/stir them up (“get some buzz on the book!”) have been one of the most stifling influences on mainstream superheroes for the last twenty years. Stories meant as fan service, placating the needs of continuity geeks or setting up things in the ‘fictional universe’ the characters inhabit, as a genreal rule of thumb make for bad comics. I think mainstream comics work much better when the creators are distanced from the audience and just doing their own thing. It’s the difference between the Green Lantern of Rebirth and the Green Lantern of New Frontier, or between the Jeff Smith Captain Marvel and the Judd Winick Captain Marvel.

I’m all about fanzines and the DIY ethic and expressing yourself and so on. Where we trip up is thinking that these things need to have actual status in the editorial process, that they should weigh as heavily in the creative process as fans say they should. The trouble is that most creators working today are coming from that fan/geek pool; a great many of them are, I think, writing fan fiction and getting paid for it. That’s what leads to really incestuous, self-referential, incomprehensible comics like Brad Meltzer’s new Justice League. I like Joss Whedon’s work quite a bit but I’m the first one to tell you that his X-Men isn’t a patch on his other original work. Because his X-stuff is coming from his inner geek place, it’s fanfic really.

I want comics that are coming more from a place of general-interest, new-reader-friendly, back-to-basics craftsmanship. I think fan-service comics drag everything down. The Event Death is just one of the creepier symptoms of that.

The Jason Todd thing struck me as one of the creepiest manifestations of all, and note that even Denny O’Neil, who orchestrated it, has since expressed regret and said it was probably a mistake. A story ending dictated by fans phoning in their Nero-esque thumbs-up/thumbs down isn’t about the story at all, it’s a novelty act. A novelty act about a character dying, even knowing it’s fiction and nobody really gets hurt, is still catering to the worst instincts of the audience.

…and that’s the SHORT answer. Really it’s a column all by itself. But I like comics better when the creators are isolated; they are over here, creating, and the audience is over THERE, either purchasing or not purchasing. Fan excitement is great. Fan creativity is great. But fan involvement in the editorial/creative process is something to be wary of, especially since when fans get what they ASK for, they usually hate it.

The “carrying the dead hero” is actually a cover that you see a LOT.

Probably because it’s icongraphy you see a LOT in art, as in art that doesn’t involve superheroes. The pieta, as mentioned above is one example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieta

But there are loads of other visual representations of carrying the dead hero ranging from the death of Siegfried to the Death of General Wolfe

Ok, first off, I hated the storyline. I thought it was a poor work by Starlin, and it made me wish he would not touch characters who werent flying around in space.

But hears the thing that makes the death of Robin a positive part of comic books. The call in vote…yes, the thing you all hate. Why? Because fan interaction.

One of the things that brought fans to comic books back in the day was the community that formed around it. This is something that is echoed today in comic conventions, messageboards and blogs and even arguments at the comic book store. But back then, there were two ways that fans interacted: either by fan zines (which I know Mr Hatcher knows quite a lot about), and the letters page. The old EC comics were I believe the first notable book that tried to create a fan community, allowing people in the community to get special “insider” knowledge. There are pages in EC books that are filled with inside jokes about different EC titles and the writers and staff. You had to be in the implyed community of readers to get all the references. Fan letters would also be answered and fans felt like they were interacting with the comic book writers themselves, and even, via the page, their friends.

Marvel echoed this in the 60s as well, with stuff like Stan’s Soapbox and the famous letters page for “True Believers”. Marvel was doing what EC did, and started a fan community that these readers could be a part of. By taking the time out to answer readers questions, Stan Lee was giving the appearence that readers opinions mattered, and that they were insiders at Marvel. The introduction of the Merry Marvel Marching Society, The No-Prizes, and even powerful slogans like “Make Mine Marvel!” and every catch phrase Stan Lee ever came up with all made the “secret” society even tighter, and fan intereaction even greater.

Now what does this have to do with the Death of Robin? Well, DC put it up for a vote by the fans, therefore trying to include something that had been slightly neglected in the previous years. The whole element of fan interaction is what made comics successful back in the day, and gave them a fan base. People who felt like they were outsiders to everyone else were able to relate to a nerd like Peter Parker that was picked on by bull Flash Thompson, and they were even able to be in a “special insider” community with the guy who wrote that story! It;s why people stayed, and why today we have stuff like comic conventions and this messageboard.

I know that was long and I hope someone reads it and comments. I would really like to hear Greg’s opinion on all of this.

Another big problem with the Gwen Stacy death is that it negates the big lesson of Uncle Ben’s death. Spider-Man does what he does because he discovered that if he doesn’t become Spider-Man and fight crime, good people can die including those he loves. But in Gwen Stacy’s death, someone he loved die precisely because he was Spider-Man and fought crime. So what’s his reason to be Spider-Man now? Writers keep using the Uncle Ben reason of guilt over inaction, but the problem is that with Gwen’s death now he has an equally valid reason for guilt over taking action. Since both guilt over inaction and guilt over taking action both led to the same reasons, it means he now needs a new reason to remain Spider-Man besides the old Uncle Ben reason. I think JMS realized this and it caused him to create the Norman/Gwen affair, so that Gwen would actually die for reasons unrelated to Peter being Spider-Man, thereby letting him off the hook. But that opened up a whole other host of problems.

Wizard had an “article” on how many there were going back thru the dawn of comics (there were about 100 or so) and even THEY (not that those guys have ANY intelligence – which is why I’ve since dropped the mag) even knew that ALL of those covers were, in and of themselves, homages to Michaelangelo’s “PIETA” (statue of Mary holding the recently deceased Jesus).

If I have a chance, I’ll dig out the issue from my magazine pile and go over the list.

But, even if I don’t get the chance, I just wanted to fill you in on how many there have been and that they were all derived from a classical master.

~P~
P-TOR

I think there are two reasons for this. One, I read it in Marvel Tales. In my “current” Spidey comics at the time, Peter had just revealed his identity to MJ, the black costume stuff was going on, and Gwen Stacy was very much “of the past.” (Even the Jackal was about 100 issues gone, by then.) So it wasn’t a fresh tragedy.

And two, I don’t think I’ve made it any secret that I’m a big Doctor Who fan. I think that you do get a bit different perspective on death if your formative fan experience is Doctor Who, because it’s always been a series that’s borderline horror, and it’s always been a series where good people do die and it’s presented as “hey, it’s a tough world, the important thing is that justice gets done.” (There are Doctor Who stories with higher body counts than ‘Pulp Fiction’, ‘The Godfather’, and ‘The Texas Chainsaw Massacre’. Combined.) So when I read that two-parter, I saw it as, “Gwen Stacy died–poor thing. But justice was done. The Green Goblin is dead too.” (It was a very Doctor Who-ish death, too…he tried to kill Peter, Peter neatly avoided his trap, and it closed around the Goblin.) It fit into my moral framework in a way a lot of later comic deaths don’t.

Then, of course, they brought the Goblin _back_. Of all the characters that should have stayed dead…

I had the issue in hand and glanced through it in the shop to see what the hype was (I usually don’t read Marvel but keep in touch), thought about buying it because it seemed like a pivotal moment and issue, maybe something I had to check out and get on board with.

Then I realized that by the end of the year any combination of one of three things will probably happen:

1) We get new guy in Cap suit that goes nuts and must be taken down which will prove, once again, that only Rogers can be Cap because “it’s the hero and not the suit that matters”

2) There will be a crisis that demands Rogers return and he’ll be cloned by science/re-animated by Dr. Strange/or come back through the Cosmic Cube unharmed to save the day

3) We’ll just forget he died. It was a dream. Or something. Sharon was having a hallucination. Sort of like when Magneto died those five-thousand times in the X-Books (my favorite being when, late 90′s maybe, it was the end of a run before Morrison and the X-Men killed him after he was ruling Genosha and then went and got a beer afterwards…brilliant). And then Mags just shows up again. No explanation. I love it. They don’t even need to explain how totally dead guys come back anymore.

In short, I thought about this, and then put down the book. Bought what I came in for, and left. I doubt I’m missing anything I don’t already know, no matter how well written it may be done.

Back; still dead; sorta back; back; back; back; still dead as far as I know; back; back; back, evil, and dead again; replaced, replacement dead, replacement back; original Hourman and Hawkman back; none back that I know of; none back that I know of, but a lot more killed off.

Getcher scorecards; can’t tell who’s dead without a scorecard…

I just wanted to respond to your (understandably reprinted) comments about the death of Jason Todd.

I was reading Batman comics in those days, and yes, I paid my .50 to vote on the matter. I voted to kill him, and I’ll tell you why.

My reason was actually three-fold:

1) The readers were allowed to choose. From my perspective, if Robin doesn’t die, then things continue on as they have been. But if he does die, what happens then? Curiousity, and yes morbidity, played a role.

2) I never liked Jason Todd. From pre-COIE Dick Grayson clone to post-COIE juvenile delinquent, I never liked the character in the slightest. Dick Grayson had grown beyond the sidekick role, and Batman’s development since the 70′s had made it time to see him on his own again, IMHO. Year One also whetted my appetite for a solo Batman, which kind of leads me to…

3) Dark Knight. Even though I think Year One is ten times as good as Dark Knight, the idea in that story that he had suffered the loss of having Robin die was a fascinating development in the Batman mythos. It was obvious in DK that the dead Robin was Jason Todd, and when the Death in the Family story came about; I, and others I am sure, took it in part as a referendum on the DK continuity. I voted in favor of Dark Knight

In closing, I just want to say how much I enjoy what you guys do, keep up the good work.

/Man, do I feel like a putz, I too never noticed the similarity between X-Men #136 and COIE #7, and I’ve been readin comics for well over 20 years. I honestly never liked the COIE cover, even as a big Perez fan. I do like the X-Men cover, but looking at it closely now, Cyclops anatomy is all screwed up- he has no crotch.

On the back of a major crossover?

I read earlier today the death came out of the same planning meeting as Civil War, so I have little faith in it.
I was going to pick up Brubakers run in trades, but I may just wait a while now and see how it plays out – if people say its good, I’ll check it out.

“But I don’t see how the quality of Gaiman’s (or Robinson’s) work on a single title precludes the possibility of a well-written storyline involving a superhero death, even in a mainstream comic like CA. ”

It doesn’t.
I just don’t have much faith in Marvel these days (or DC for that matter), so when they bust out a good book like She Hulk or Blue Beetle I jump all over it, but of everything else I’m really skeptical.

Robinson and Gaiman are good and all, I’ll agree, but this didn’t feel gratuitous to me. I (unfortunately) read the Death of Superman and the Death of Robin when they came out, and as a long-time comics reader, this honestly felt nothing like that.

FunkyGreenJeruslam:
“That was all story driven.”

This seemed like the beginning of a story rather than a destination, but otherwise, I’m not seeing any fundamental difference. No 1-800 numbers, black armbands, or holographic covers here. Not yet, at least. (Maybe that’ll change.)

FGJ:
“And, it was Sandman.

You really shouldn’t be comparing superhero deaths to Sandman when trying to make a point for them.
It just highlights how lacking and pointless they are. ”

Was Sandman a better book than Brubaker’s CA? Sure. Better than most superhero comics? You bet. But I don’t see how the quality of Gaiman’s (or Robinson’s) work on a single title precludes the possibility of a well-written storyline involving a superhero death, even in a mainstream comic like CA. Unless you’re going to reject superhero stories (or in deference to Starman, mainstream superhero stories) all-together. If so, cool enough, to each their own.

And apologies to Mr. Hatcher if I contributed to a brawl on a blog a wandered into. No offense meant to you or anyone posting. Much of the article seemed on target, particularly the later (well, technically earlier) stuff, and the whole thing was well-written. Just didn’t seem to fit what was actually in the comic that a lot of people currently seem to be complaining about, IMHO. Apologies again.

Cheers.

Sorry, that was the thing that stuck out to me. ”

I was amazed how cheap the Superman memorial set was.

The fourth printing of the issue where Superman died was the first comic I ever brought from a comic shop (I wasn’t a regular reader then – I was ten), that and a Wonder Man issue (the cover said ‘Wonder Man Quits’, I was intrigued).
I remember with the Superman issue the comic guy explaining to my mum that it was the fourth printing, so it wouldn’t go up in value.
We both stared blankly at him.
As if I cared.

Fun Fact: You all talked about it, but I actually did it – I threw up on Superman #75.
Not intentionally, but it was next to my bed when I was sick a few months later.