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I'd like to see more context surrounding it, but I have to say based solely on this, I'm sorry Paul but you're wrong. It's the cute, charismatic, and funny ones that are the most interesting. How do they manage to stay all those things in a world that's continually painful or horrifying? How do they add depth to the character without changing around their entire personality?

...Uh, yeah, Dini. Everyone knows Harley Quinn sucks ass because she's cute, charismatic, and funny.

Atrus beat me to it.

I suspect Dini really meant to say "unspoiled by trauma".

I'd say Harley Quinn sucks ass just because she's Harley fucking Quinn.

Had she actually been killed, Batman #663 would have been completely redeemed for the hideous CG art in my eyes.

Emma. Freaking. Peel.

As perhaps the universe's biggest Mary Marvel fan, I'd like for Paul Dini (whose work I enjoy, generally speaking) to rethink his take.

At least, that's my polite, printable response.

I’d like to see more context surrounding it, but I have to say based solely on this

I actually ended up quoting basically the entire Dini quote (although I initially intended on just paraphrasing the second part).

The complete context is as follows: A reader asks "Is DC planning on making the cutest and one of my personal favorite heroines evil? 'Cuz that would really piss me off! Mary Marvel's innocence is a big part of her character, and it totally makes her so much more charismatic and funny!

Dini replies, "Let’s just say this: A character who stays cute, charismatic and funny isn’t very interesting. So, it's better to put that character through some tests and see if they come out the way they came in, or if they undergo some changes that ultimately make them a stronger, more interesting character."

That's the complete context.

Well.... Harley was a bit of a tragic figure, in love with the Joker. Emma Peel wasn't cute; she was smoking sexy hot. That ALWAYS works.

How much of this, one wonders, is editorial mandate?

Because -- and this is what is so graveling to those of us that think DC's current 'mainstream' take on the Marvels is so utterly wrongheaded (which I KNOW is a group that includes many writers WORKING for DC) -- the grim 'n' gritty continuity-heavy DCU versions of the Marvel family must SELL. Why else keep doing it? Does anyone know if, for example, Trials of Shazam is doing bigger numbers than Monster Society of Evil? Because if it is, that would make me very sad, but it does make the whole current traumatize-the-Marvels thing somewhat more understandable from a commercial point of view.

I have this (not particularly serious) theory that a lot of this needlessly grim superhero stuff comes from writers who were wedgie'd once too often in their youth for reading superhero comics and now have something to prove, but I never thought Paul Dini was one of those guys. It shocks me when I consider that four issues in, 52 was a lot more fun than Countdown has been, considering this is the guy that wrote so many hilarious and fun DCU cartoons.

"Does anyone know if, for example, Trials of Shazam is doing bigger numbers than Monster Society of Evil?"

It isn't.

As for Dini, I guess he's just acknowledging which side his bread's buttered on. I have to think he's smart enough to recognize the flaws in this approach, but this "Superheroes is serious business" attitude at DC pretty much comes straight from Didio, and Dini can either get with the program or not work on DC Comics.

As for what bug is up Didio's bonnet, your guess is as good as mine.

I don't know how Monster Society is doing against Trials, but I believe that Monster Society is doing very well and has exceeded DC's expectations. And in Smith's series, Billy is certainly going through some tests that will make him a stronger character, and he lives in a world that has serious problems and threats, but I bet at the end he will still be cute, charismatic and funny. And interesting. A lot more interesting than the mainstream Captain Marvel.

DC really just doesn't get the point behind the Marvel Family. They're supposed to be innocent, charming, and funny. It's always been about wish fulfillment, more so than any other comic - little kids turn into super-powered adults and save the world. It's not supposed to be angsty, super serious, or dark. Trials of Shazam completely fails to realize that and tries to recast Captain Marvel as a tattooed teenager with a soul patch. Now it looks like they're doing something similar to Mary. They just don't get it.

I don’t know how Monster Society is doing against Trials, but I believe that Monster Society is doing very well and has exceeded DC’s expectations. And in Smith’s series, Billy is certainly going through some tests that will make him a stronger character, and he lives in a world that has serious problems and threats, but I bet at the end he will still be cute, charismatic and funny. And interesting. A lot more interesting than the mainstream Captain Marvel.

You have to realize that Jeff Smith was the creator of Smiley Bone one of comicdoms Cutest, most Charismatic and certainly Funniest creations and managed to keep him interesting for some 1300 pages...

That quote is more than a little dissapointing. It's like DiDio and Johns have assimilated Dini into the hivemind.

..and Mary being cute and funny is working just fine for Jeff Smith.

Let's hope Dini never writes Owley.

Thanks to The Beat's sales charts for DC, compiled by Marc-Oliver Frisch, we can see roughly how Monster Society is doing against Trials...

Feb 2007:

55 - TRIALS OF SHAZAM
08/2006: Trials of SHAZAM #1 of 12 — 50,621 [53,471]
09/2006: Trials of SHAZAM #2 of 12 — 41,156 (-18.7%) [43,853]
10/2006: Trials of SHAZAM #3 of 12 — 38,395 (- 6.7%)
11/2006: –
12/2006: Trials of SHAZAM #4 of 12 — 38,029 (- 1.0%)
01/2007: –
02/2007: Trials of SHAZAM #5 of 12 — 34,614 (- 9.0%)

March 2007:

70 - SHAZAM: THE MONSTER SOCIETY OF EVIL
02/2007: SHAZAM: Monster Society #1 of 4 — 35,970
03/2007: SHAZAM: Monster Society #2 of 4 — 31,957 (-11.2%)

Granted, Jeff Smith's version may get repackaged and resold in other channels, and Trials might disappear off the face of the earth right after it finishes (or, with that shipping schedule, before it finishes). But based on these direct market numbers, it looks like the much-despised grim-and-gritty update is selling in a little higher, and may level off at the same numbers.

I prefer Trials myself. I have no problem with both of them existing. I personally think MSoE is a dull, patronising, expensive, and irrelevant remake, but if kids like it, fine. It's just, y'know, those are the numbers.

~ Gil

The thing is, a character can be cute, charismatic and funny without being naive. It's entirely possible to write them that way. In fact, in comics - just as in life - it's the folks that are cute, charismatic and funny without being innocent that are the most trouble (and usually in a good way). The Marvels don't need to be "gawrsh-oh-golly" yokels in order to be fun, but that's what DC seems to think, which is why each version they do moves further and further way... but in the wrong direction.

The irony is that the Monster Society version of the Marvels is just as radical a revisioning as the dreadfully awful one happening in Trials and Countdown. It's just that Jeff Smith isn't afraid of cute, charismatic and funny and makes the most of it at every opportunity.

I am required to say what I say in response to every entry on this blog about DC's wholly malicious treatment of the Marvel Family in the regular DC Universe: Once we have a Shazam! movie and cartoon, the status quo will reassert itself and all this crap will seem like a bad dream--like the time Dr. Strange was decked out like Kid Eternity, or Ben Reilly was Spider-Man...

But based on these direct market numbers, it looks like the much-despised grim-and-gritty update is selling in a little higher, and may level off at the same numbers.

Gil, if Monster Society of Evil is anywhere NEAR Trials of Shazam in issues sold, then it is a gigantic success, as it costs TWICE as much money as Trials of Shazam!

Trials is $3 a comic. Monster Society is $6.

Hence the declaration that Monster Society has been a big hit for DC.

30,000 copies of a $6 book is a lot better than 40,000 copies of a $3 book.

TRIALS, I think, has fallen into a bit of a valley. The fans of the traditional Captain Marvel are wary of the new, "gritty" reboot- the people who prefer darker, more serious fantasy, on the other hand, aren't reading Captain Marvel anyway and don't really care.

There's also just been very little buzz about it. I thought it was curious that COUNTDOWN #51 didn't contain at least a pointer towards TRIALS as an explanation for what Freddy's been up to and why Mary was in the hospital anyway- it seems like a no-brainer of a tie-in.

This is the kind of thinking that leads to girlfriend in refrigerator syndrome.

Jeff Smith's book is probably going to do extremely well in hardcover and then TPB, and will probably continue to sell for the next few years at least.

Trials, though, is probably seeing almost all the sales it ever will in the monthly format.

So Trials is technically selling more copies than Monster Society.

Urg.

I have this mental picture of a comics fan walking into the shop, flipping through the books, looking at "Monster Society of Evil."

Turns to the clerk: "Herrm. You got anything shittier? "

Brian: I grant that Monster Society's profit margin may be higher, although its production costs will be higher too. But Trials runs to twelve issues, Monster Society to only four. That's going to make a difference to the final profitability.

MarkAndrew: what, exactly, did that comment add to the discussion other than an element of hatefulness? So you clearly don't like it. Who cares what you don't like? Let me like what I like.

I think Trials of Shazam has been a pretty moderate sales success as WELL (those numbers look pretty good for a book that has not done all that well for DC in the past), but Monster Society has been a really big success for DC.

The individual issues were almost treated as a sunk cost by DC, so to see them result in sales that high? That's remarkable.

I actually didn't know Monster Society was selling that much. I figured it would be a hit with numbers closer to 20,000...so to be selling over 30,000? That's striking.

By the by - I am not making any argument or anything with this comment. I'm just tangentially noting my surprise (and impressment) by these sales figures.

I imagine that Monster Society Of Evil has a lot of people waiting for the already-announced hardcover or a TPB. It should be something that DC can sell for a long-time, while I doubt that Trials Of Shazam will endure.

I agree it's impressive that Monster Society is selling that well, considering that it's not in sync with the current trend. If DC had written off the costs, then even better - it's all going to look like profit.

The reason I posted the figures is: if you were to use the general level of warmth or hostility on the internet to try to estimate the sales figures, you'd probably get the idea that Monster Society was doing Civil War numbers, while Trials was just about managing to sell to Judd Winick's immediate family. But whatever the numbers eventually mean in terms of profits or the direction the characters take, and however much it may be to do with trends, right now it doesn't look that cut and dried to me.

~ Gil

what, exactly, did that comment add to the discussion other than an element of hatefulness? So you clearly don’t like it. Who cares what you don’t like? Let me like what I like.

Freaking out a little, there, Gil. You're starting to act defensive before anyone's actually attacked. Sounds like you've had this fight before. Save us the retread, yeah?

It added his OPINION to the conversation, and that's kind of the whole purpose of allowing comments. Not to mention the fact that HE writes here and you don't, so you're not really in a position to be lecturing.

Oh, and Gil?

Who cares what you like? Let him hate what he hates. And don't forget that your first comment said some hateful things about Monster Society.

As for Dini's quote, I wonder if he's slipping in some subtext to show the lameness of DiDio's version of the DC universe. I mean, what kind of writer knowingly says that "charismatic" is not equal to "interesting"?

Two kinds. A really, really bad one (which Dini is not) and one who is criticizing the powers that be, without jeapordizing his career.

Beat me to it, Apodaca. The comment, as published, just makes no sense whatsoever from anyone who's ever handled characterization.

Sure, 'cute', if we're talking awww-shucks aren't they adorably naiive, might have some limitations. But charismatic? Funny? Anybody on DC's editorial staff watched an ep of Law & Order lately? Maybe picked up a back issue of Spider-Man on the sly?

Charismatic and funny is what fictional crime-fighters *are*. Otherwise, they're drowning in a morass of depression and ugliness and anger, and...well, hey, then they just became really, really pointless, from an entertainment POV.

The reason I posted the figures is: if you were to use the general level of warmth or hostility on the internet to try to estimate the sales figures, you’d probably get the idea that Monster Society was doing Civil War numbers, while Trials was just about managing to sell to Judd Winick’s immediate family.

That was actually what got me wondering about it. I'm reading the same internet fan sites everyone else is, and except for you, you brave fellow, you can hardly get anyone to admit they're BUYING Trials, let alone enjoying it. And if that distaste was reflected in actual sales, then what DC's been doing with the Marvel family doesn't make any sense at all. On the other hand, if it's doing well then no matter how many of us are howling about it on the net, we pretty much are going to have to live with the grim-n-gritty Marvels for a while.

It's kind of like the discussion I was having with some friends about the Mary Jane statue thing: as outraged as some people have gotten -- and it IS kind of a creepy statue considering MJ's current status in the movies and the public mind -- Sideshow still sold out of the thing.

Lots of things I think are terrific are sales duds. And even more things that I don't particularly approve of or care for still sell well. And as long as that's true I'm going to have to just resign myself to voting with my wallet and moving on. That's the free market for you. The bottom line is, well, the bottom line.

Coming from the guy who used animation to make Supergirl cute, charismatic, and funny again....

Jay - Honestly didn't notice the end part of your comment.

And I've been waiting to use that line for MONTHS.

I have no problem with you liking stuff that I like. But I figure there's enough people here in synce with my taste that some of them woulda found the joke funny.

But since we're here... What did you mean by "Patronizing?" I'm 30, double major in English and Art History in the middle of churnin' out a 20 pager on Joyce's Ulysses and I didn't feel "patronized" at all.

I agree with Apodaca. I sense sarcasm here. Dini is probably begin flip and at the same time acknowledging DC's ridiculous "shit on every character we can think of" mandate.

I hope that's the case, at least.

I'm a little curious what he means by "stronger" and "more interesting" in this context. Is he saying that characters are more interesting if they're not charismatic and funny? Surely not.

Of course, Dini's an awesome writer, and this was probably just a slip of the tongue/typing finger/however-the-interview-was-conducted that we're all making too much of. Weird quote, though.

Apodeca: true enough, I did diss first. Sorry... indeed sorry to all... a snarky day to which I clearly contributed. Greg notes I'm one of the only people who admits online to reading and liking Trials, so I'm likely to be a snarky beast who reacts unpredictably when cornered

MarkAndrew: I felt a bit patronised by MSoE because it seemed very short on content, and it's expensive (I could get Ulysses, Finnegan's Wake, and probably a second-hand copy of A Case Of Conscience for the full cost of the miniseries)... with the result that when it went to such lengths to project a vibe of 'old-school good clean fun', it ended up actively repelling me.

But I probably just don't like it because Grant Morrison didn't write it. And draw it. And appear in it

~ Gil

Regarding the sales figures:

According to Jeff Smith, MSoE #1 was the #3 reorder for April, with MSoE #2 being the #9 advance reorder for the same period. These reorders are not counted in the sales figures that Diamond releases.

So the sales figures for MSoE that Gil cited need to be adjusted up, apparently significantly.

I'm waiting for the Monster Society of Evil trade paperback. Having flipped trhough Trials, though, I have zero interest.

I think, in life, there are some people who have a very strict sort of "rule" - life is what you make of it.

That's why a person can be happy and charming while not being naive. They know the reality, but choose to address it through personality.

That's how a character like Mary Marvel can exist in a realistic setting - she's fully aware of what's going on, but she chooses to use an upbeat attitude to try to change it.

On the one hand, Dini has a point. A story is generally more interesting if a character has to go through something and has the potential to reach a new understanding in the process. Charlie Brown, for example, is a cute, charismatic little guy in 'A Charlie Brown Christmas.' He's also depressed, melancholic, and incredibly cynical at the beginning of the story.

As he goes through the story, Charlie Brown's friends help him overcomes his cynicism and melancholy about the Holiday. He's able to find joy and meaning again by the story's end. It's a pretty heavy little story for a half hour! It's also really funny. I mean, who doesn't love A Charlie Brown Christmas?

A story like 'Infinite Crisis' is, ultimately, about what? It's a series of actions that unfolds, that ultimately leads to a tragic ending. A lot of characters die throughout the story and at the end. The only character who really wanted anything was Superboy. And what he really wanted was to get out of prison. And he sort of does, only to end up in another prison. As for the other characters? Most of them end up dead.

For me, this doesn't make for a very charming, or very entertaining, bit of storytelling. If there's a person in a cape, part of the fun is watching that cape flutter as the character wearing it, I dunno, throws a dump truck full of cookies at a flaming dinosaur to keep it from eating a bus full of nuns. During an Earthquake.

So, I'm one of the ones who bought 'New Frontier' and 'Monster Society of Evil' (which both have very worth Dinosaur Dumptruck moments), but not one of the ones who would EVER buy Trials of Shazam, Infinite Crisis or comics like that. They just aren't much fun!

As for Mary Marvel, there's only one word to describe the posters and what DC (apparently) has planned for the character. Creepy.

And by Creepy, I mean Creepy in the, "hey, why is that middle-aged man telling all those kids that there's video games down in his basement?" kind of creepy. CREEPY!