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While I think that Ordway has some very valid points, espeically in regards to how Mary was treated in the past, we have seen two pages of her new persona. All we know is that she is currently taking on the powers of Black Adam and that, somewhere, down the line, she will face temptation and corruption.

For all we know, she could end the series by being more wholesome than she ever was.

I’m really sick of all the knee-jerk reactions that the comic reading community is throwing all over the place lately. We don’t know that the core of Mary is being “violated.” Unless he has seen Dini’s complete plan for where the character is going, he is just in the dark as we are. I’m not ready to pass judgement on the new “darker” Mary Marvel until I see how the story unfolds.

We need to see everything Mary Marvel is not so we can appreciate how awesome she is for her eventual return to her roots.

Adam - That’s what I hope is happening here.

That bit about “Formerly Known as the Justice League” kind of puzzles me. It seems like Mary losing her virginity would have stopped the book dead in its tracks. She’s such an over-the-top caricature of naiveté there that I can’t imagine how such an event would have been worked in to the story.

Anyway, I’m glad it’s not there.

I’d like to think that Dini has some idea what he’s doing (despite some comments he’s made recently) and that this is going to be a journey/morality play/what not, and the character (and potentially the audience) is going to come out of this more mature and wiser, though not necessarily more grim and gritty.

I could be wrong, but I’d rather see the story play out than judge it beforehand.

I figure Dini deserves that much given his past work and the way he’s handled properties.

ye olde iowa!!! wow. someone posting a reasonable, thoughtful comment on a comics website. actually asking folks to read the WHOLE story before mouthing off.

how refreshing.

The point is they didn’t do those things, I wouldn’t even have know of those writers intents if you didn’t tell me. I think Mary Marvel will come out of this an absolute heroine, more wholesome than before. You have to take the characters to the brink or no one will care about them. They have to come out of it better than before. I’m all for changing Mary Marvel, using her as a character and not just a caricature of wholesomeness.

Oh I hope that she goes back to normal in the end.

I think Joe Q made a good point in his Newsarama interview that can be applied to this situation. I’d quote it here, but the response is pretty long; the jist of it is, however, that bad stuff happens to superheroes. If they’re not put in peril, they can’t get out of the peril, grow, and otherwise do things fictional characters do.

I mean, look at the Ralph and Sue thing. Yeah, Identity Crisis was pretty brutal, but now that the arc is finished, we find Ralph and Sue out of the dark place they were ushered into, and solving mysteries as a married pair of ghost detectives. And perhaps more importantly, a whole new generation of comic readers got to see an awesome story about the two characters; how much they need eachother, what depths Ralph could sink to without Sue there, and how, ultimately, he heroicly took back his place in the light.

If, in the end, this was just throwing mud on Mary and it’s quietly retconned in hopes we’ll forget about it? Then that is the time to complain, because all that strife and pain was for nothing, and all that story potential was wasted.

Yeah, occasionaly comic writers can sound like overeager frat boys. But man, who hasn’t said something that could be taken the wrong way? Or just something dumb that didn’t convey their meaning right?

You make some good points, and I think there’s definately a place for people to go, “Guys, cut it out, seriously.”, but at the same time, I feel that a lot of comic fans are so quick to judge something as negative based on a mixed first impression that they’re missing out on some great stories that’re being told.

If you wanna see Joe Q’s comment in full, it’s in this interview, bout halfway in: http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays49.html

The problem is, writers seem to be inconsistent or at least taking their sweet time about pulling characters out of peril. The Ralph and Sue arc you mentioned took THREE YEARS to resolve, and a lot of the big events have ended on these ambiguous pyrrhic victories instead of genuine cathartic release.

You have to be able to handle the highs as well as the lows to write good serial fiction. So far, the latter have been emphasized to such a degree that I’m skeptical of the “Dark Mary” subplot (which I don’t find that interesting to start with) being resolved satisfactorily.

I think wholesale revamps are a sign of writer laziness. It’s infinitely easier to bend a character to a new plot or storyline than remain true to the motivations and roots of a character.

We see this all the time with Bendis at Marvel (”let’s take a hero and throw away X years of continuity, because I think a “reboot” is more intersting”). Byrne also did it with a number of characters (including Superman, I think) in the 80s.

The harder challenge for these writers would be to contemporize a character, remain fresh and address current issues. But again, that would take time and effort…which would take away from all those screenplays and multimedia deals they’re pitching.

Someone once said “Don’t give the readers what they want, but what they THINK they want.”

Just adding my voice to those that say this isn’t totally played out yet. Give Mary a chance.

I wholeheartedly agree with Ordway. What’s more is there have been numerous proposals to do this to the Marvels before. That for SHAZAM: A NEW BEGINNING actually made it to print.

It was not welcome and largely dismissed because it was against the spirit of these characters.

I like my heroes actually heroic and inspiring and as people to aspire to.

But clearly, among the allegedly shrinking comics readership I am a minority.

Here’s hoping COUNTDOWN doesn’t do TOO much damage.

Unfortunately, if you wait until a story “plays out”, it is often too late to go back and fix things.

Face it, the Marvel Family will never become the Dark Knight. They are what they are, and as Jerry Ordway said, create a new character if you need to go down that avenue.

If anything, give the Marvel’s the same type of relaunch that has been afforded The Spirit. The character retains the core elements that made the originals so readable, and the “update” allows the character to face new realities that challenge their values. Turning Mary Marvel “dark” serves no purpose, other than to sell a handful of extra issues. Perhaps that is the ONLY reason to tinker?

I should point out that Mary wasn’t molested in the Supergirl crossover story, or anything like it; she overreacted to a police officer who was coming on too strong.

While I may have to concede that the Ralph and Sue storyline was decent storytelling, I still feel a bit disapoointed that it was the best that could be done for or to them. From reading Identity Crisis, 52 and Justice I’m getting the impression that Ralph is coming in second behind Plastic Man. I may be wrong. It just seems that the story was put a bit forced.

I think the jury is still out on Mary Marvel, but it sure would suck to have high hopes or expectations and then be disappointed. Again.

Just my two cents

I seem to recall Mary’s appearance in PAD’s Supergirl as being used as example of everything Linda wasn’t….a noble, powerful, confident in herself, hero, while Linda was always trying and somewhat failing to distance herself from her dark past. (but I grant it’s been a while since I read the story).

The Mary taking Adam’s power is the first interesting thing that’s happened in Countdown…and as the powers still come from Shazam, aren’t they the same as Billy’s (as opposed to the days they were from a bunch of evil gods)?

I’ll be all behind Ordaway if the story ends and Mary’s some dark superslut. But I gotta agree with Iowa (jim?) and say give the story more than 4 pages to judge.

Jerry Ordway has long been a hero of mine, and I too was curious what he’d think of this storyline. I wouldn’t say, as other posters have, that he’s necessarily passing judgment on the storyline without seeing how it develops. I think he’s more showing concern over this trend of “darkening” sunny and hopeful characters. It appears, so far, as though he has good reason to be concerned.

I think he’s pretty bang-on, though. I don’t see the merit in changing a very well-established (and more or less, well-liked) character into something it never was before. I’m willing to see where the story goes, but I too am deeply concerned, given how fast and loose DC seems to be playing with the Marvel family these days. For my money, Jerry’s take in the 90s was perfect. They were modern stories, but Jerry didn’t feel he had any need, or RIGHT to alter these characters. He just made them work as they were, for who they were. In the end I think these characters will outlast any of the recent cosmetic or even fundamental changes that have been attempted of late.

I’d like to point out, that so far, Mary isn’t “dark”…she’s just wearing a black costume. It’s not like the lightning hit her and she went off and killed a kitten.

Teth Adam had his magic word changed by Billy the Wizard. He couldn’t access his powers until he learned the new word, and it was supposed to be one that Black Adam would have a hard time just guessing. He then has access to all his powers and it seems he is still miserable. Enter Mary, someone else looking for her lost powers just like he did. Without too much hooplah, he relinquishes his mojo to her with the only after thought being for her to tell her brother “sorry” for him.

I think this is to show that Teth Adam finally “got it” and is showing guilt, remorse, etc and wants to move on (”Sorry” being the word needed to access his gods). He learned his lesson and then passed it on to Mary, a fellow seeker of what was lost.

His powers were never “dark”, they were just like Billy’s. His personality led him to use them in a dark manner; he wasn’t corrupted by darkness inherent in them. Other than a style of dress that reminds the reader of where the powers came from, Mary should just be Mary again. Anything else is something that will be revealed in upcoming plots.

The only knee jerk I have is why the word “Shazam” worked for Teth Adam to transfer his power to Mary… and that is a minor knee jerk. One I am sure will be explained later. In the mean time, I plan to read on and not get my undies in a bunch. Reactionary is never a good basis for anything.

Scavenger, that was the ongoing series and in the later issues during the quest for her more angelic half (and powerful) self.

The story Ordway is talking about took place in the PLUS annual that paired Supergirl and Mary Marvel. It was more than a little unflattering and uncomfortable.

Ye Olde Iowa, it’s clearly said in the original post that, “Whether it turns out well or not will play out in Countdown.” Doesn’t seem like a knee-jerk reaction or any kind of slam on where Countdown is going. Perhaps you should go back and reread the original article again and rethink your comments. The only knee-jerk reaction going on here is yours…

The problem is, writers seem to be inconsistent or at least taking their sweet time about pulling characters out of peril. The Ralph and Sue arc you mentioned took THREE YEARS to resolve

I think in that particular case there wasn’t even an ‘arc’ for Ralph and Sue. The character was murdered in Identity Crisis, end of story. I think the writers of 52 wanted to have some kind of a happy ending, so they put it in. I don’t think it was an arc where they said “Can you kill of Sue but have her be reuinited at the end with Ralph as a ghost”

We see this all the time with Bendis at Marvel (”let’s take a hero and throw away X years of continuity, because I think a “reboot” is more intersting”).

Kind of off the topic at hand, but I disagree with you here. I think the reason Bendis’ Daredevil was my favourite superhero comic of the past five years was precisely that he didn’t throw away X years of continuity but built on the character’s backstory in ways that were fascinating and inevitable

In any event, I think continuity is a giant maguffin. What this is about isn’t continuity, but rather understanding the tone and concept of a character. And I think DC has missed the point on the Marvels for a year or so now.

Scavenger, no dice on me being anyone named Jim. Sorry!

MMPimp, I did read Mr. Ordway’s comments several times before I made my post. He did concede that he has yet to see everything play out, but only after he ranted about stories that didn’t actually happen and after he stated that changes to Mary’s character would be a “slap in the face” to her creators. Then he closed it by accusing the Countdown Crew of “violating” the core of the character. It seems to me that it is pretty clear that he has already made up his mind, despite seeing the entirity of the storyline.

I’ve reread his post several more times as well as my own reaction. I still stand by my thoughts that he is jumping the gun on condemning what they are doing in Countdown without seeing the whole story.

> His powers were never “dark”, they were just like Billy’s. His personality led him to use them in a dark manner; he wasn’t corrupted by darkness inherent in them.

Actually, post-Zero Hour (i.e., in Mr Ordway’s issues), Teth-Adam *was* the powers, where the non-powered half - his descendent, Theo Adam - was a separate guy.

I can’t wait until Grant Morrison gets ahold of the Marvel family and turns Mary into a superpowered teen lesbian meth addict. Now THERE is a chance for redemption.

Hey everyone, I do agree that when the comic industry has the chance to revised “old-school” characters like the “Marvels” (Who I love) I do think that they should think very hard on what the foundation that the comic property was built on and then from there see what can grow from it. Mind you- when I say grow. I mean not in the degree where it’s a simple T&A, blood fest, limited series to appease the few “fanboys” out there but instead something that will make the property enjoyable for all… And hopefully add more to the Mythology of the character(s)
I’m currently self-publishing on my own comic book “PEACE” and I know that I will be facing a huge mountain. My mindset is of the comics of yesteryears. I love the writing and sequential story telling of the comics from the 60’s,70’s and 80’s, which in turn inspires me and my story. Does anyone remember ongoing series instead of limited series?
My initial feelings on the picture above of dark Mary Marvel above is a blank (honestly). I’m not going to hate on DC for trying something different, something new. I just hope that they don’t forget where the real magic came from that create those beloved characters.
nuff said
Peace

> > His powers were never “dark”, they were just like Billy’s. His personality led him to use them in a dark manner; he wasn’t corrupted by darkness inherent in them.
>
> Actually, post-Zero Hour (i.e., in Mr Ordway’s issues), Teth-Adam *was* the powers, where the non-powered half - his descendent, Theo Adam - was a separate guy.

Side-Note to that, Theo was gradually subsumed by Teth, it didn’t happen overnight.

I haven’t been exactly thrilled with the direction the Marvels have taken recently, but I do understand somewhat that they didn’t really fit into the DCU as they were.

Fortunately they just brought Earth 5(S) back. Here’s hoping they set some more stories there soon. (I assume the Jeff Smith Shazam story takes place on Earth 5.) As long as the sweet, charming, even goofy Marvel Family exists somewhere, I’m not going to get upset over the changes to their New Earth counterparts.

While I think that Ordway has some very valid points, espeically in regards to how Mary was treated in the past, we have seen two pages of her new persona. All we know is that she is currently taking on the powers of Black Adam and that, somewhere, down the line, she will face temptation and corruption.

I think Ordway acknowledges that, hence why he says “Whether it turns out well or not will play out in Countdown.” he just doesn’t care. I think his point, and it’s a valid one, is that whether or not the journey makes the character better or back to what it was only better, putting this character on the such a journey isn’t a good idea in the first place.

I can’t wait until Grant Morrison gets ahold of the Marvel family and turns Mary into a superpowered teen lesbian meth addict. Now THERE is a chance for redemption.

Wow, anonymous people making knee-jerk remarks on the Internet. What a new invention.

The irony is that in at least one interview I got the impression that Morrison was unimpressed with the whole ‘darkening’ of Mary Marvel.

The only problem is DC tends to take characters to the brink, and then toss them over to “satisfy fans.” And yet, not too many people are actually satisfied in the end.

Yeah, Morrison strikes me as a lot similar to Ordway in his view of the Marvels.

I can’t wait until Grant Morrison gets ahold of the Marvel family and turns Mary into a superpowered teen lesbian meth addict. Now THERE is a chance for redemption.

Just a side-note: Those three pages of that one issue of the Invisibles that you read?

Don’t really represent the rest of Morrison’s body of work.

I take back what I said, she can keep the costume.

But I still don’t want her to turn dark or edgy for the same reason I don’t like seeing any characters becoming dark, I read comics to see stories and characters with generally happy people where good triumphs over evil, not relative good triumphs over relative evil.

If I wanted to see that, I would just look outside.

DC is pretty much ruined anyway, thanks to Countdown, 52, Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis. The attempts to create a cohesive continuity with 52 Earths in and of itself is a contradiction. Darkening Mary Marvel, killing Shazam, and turning Captain Marvel into the new, albino Shazam was incredibly stupid.

I just hope when she finally decides to be good again that they revamp that white costume she used to wear. White just isn’t a good color for superheroes. I know Ordway changed her from a red costume to a white one to sort of color-code the Marvel Family. Red for Cap, blue for Junior and white for Mary… you also get that whole “red, white & blue” Americana thing going. But white is just too “blah” for superhero wear… they really need bright colors (or, in the case of Batman and other darker heroes, dark colors). Maybe Mary needs to go back to something in a red? I’m just sayin’ is all.

I think this is just another attempt by DC to try the push factor.
Just how many times will DC screw a character up only to fix it down the road?
As a lifelong fan of DC, I grow tired with their attempts to darken characters. They did it to Hal.
I’m saddened when I think DC may be their own worse enemies.
We go from multiple Earths, to just one, and now back to 52. Maybe if the current creators would take more time in planning their stories they wouldn’t have to fix everything in 10 years. Hal’s back, Ollie’s back, yet Barry is still dead. And just when we get used to Wally, he’s gone too. They killed Booster just to bring him back. (in a vary bad story) But Beetle is still dead. Just how long will the new Beetle be around until DC brings back Ted.
While I believe Mr. Dini to be a great storyteller, I fear what he does may have to be fixed at a later date.
I think Mr. Ordway has a point. I’m sure Mr. Dini could have created a new character. He has the ability.
I wish DC would stop with whatever present resentment they have towards the Marvels. I began reading comics in the 70’s with DC reprints of the Marvels and dare say I like Captain Marvel more than Superman.
I will wait to see what Mr Dini does to Mary before judging any further.

Does anybody know anything more about his Giffen/FKatJL claim? That really doesn’t sound like would’ve fit anywhere in that story as it played out.

Stan: Ah! The Plus issue…ok…all I remember about it was that I realllllllllly didn’t like it.

I don’t believe that Jeff Smith’s Shazam takes place on Earth 5…it’s too different from classic Captain Marvel…which shows the inherrant problem of the rigid multiverse approach DC does.

Another “grim & gritty” Image-style butchering.

While Dini has a track record that makes me hopeful, little DC has done in regards to heroines in the past 10-15 years (or heroes in big events recently, for that matter) inspires much reason for confidence.

Odds that Billy finds Mary’s corpse in a fridge at the end of this crossover: 52.93% and climbing.

Sorry, but the “read the whole story first” argument is total baloney.

I agree that people should react to what is written, and not speculation, but that doesn’t mean they have to wait until the story’s done. It means that they are totally entitled to react to what’s been PUBLISHED.

After all, if Dini and DC didn’t want us to react to the story mid-way, they would have published it all in one piece. They have chosen to break it up, and therefore it’s only natural to react to each part.

Maybe Watchmen would’ve been more interesting if the Question was at the center, but I think Rorschach held up the story just fine. It’s not like I read it and think, “hmm, wouldn’t this be better with Peacemaker?” Instead, I’m enthralled by the story with these strange new characters.

There are so many creators trying to do their take on Miracle Man, instead of simply finding something fun about the Marvel Family. Which is a shame. Economics says that there’s more money to be made with a magical, FUN Captain Marvel instead of a grim and gritty, angsty adventurer. Maybe the point of making Mary Marvel dark is to let her come out as a lighter character in the end.

In which case, I’ll check back in a year after the story. If the character feels like she’d be fun to read, I’ll read it. As it is, the story just looks kind of creepy and weird.

The thing no one’s mentioning here is Trials. I think that if all our Marvel mayhem lately had been in 52 and Monster Society, we’d be reacting very differently to Mary in Countdown. As has been noted, she hasn’t really done anything bad. I don’t like the cover picture, but the story so far is all just set-up, and a black costume doesn’t make for a villain or even a corrupt hero. I for one would be thinking, “huh, wonder where they’re going with this?” rather than, “oh, crap, *that’s* where they’re going.”

But Trials means that we have reason to think that DC’s going out of its way to darken and coarsen the characters. And it’s such a many-times-over shame precisely because Ordway did such great work on POS and showed that the Marvels could still *be* the Marvels and have great superhero stories told about them. One of my favorite things about the 90s DCU was the idea that it could have Opal City and Fawcett City in it at the same time, and they could each have good reasons for being like they were and could have good stories told within them as well as coexisting with a broader super-hero universe.

Relatedly: I read Supergirl on the rack, because I wanted to see whether there was going to be some “the Supergirl from LSH reintegrates with and improves Super-Britney.” Instead, we got a script that put fans’ objections to the character into the mouth of a villain, in their screechiest possible caricatured form, so that the writer–speaking through the hero– could tell us why the fans were all wrong to object. Then we got a fricking Monitor giving us the “Kyle is the one true Green Lantern”– ahem– “Super-Britney is the one true Supergirl” speech. Really bizarre to have the idea that we might want slightly more wholesome heroes from at least the Superman family actively treated with contempt on the page. And, again, makes me accord DC zero benefit of the doubt about where they’re going with Mary.

Frankly, I trust DiDio about as far as I can spit him.
We keep getting this ‘Wait and see before you pass judgment’ routine, but let’s be honest-
We’ve had Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, 52, WWIII, and now Countdown, and we’re supposed to believe that all of a sudden, it’s gonna start being GOOD?

You sound like girlfriends on the Jerry Springer show, “Yeah, I know DC’s been treating me like shit since 1994, but they’ll come good. Just give ‘em a chance…”

C’mon.

Jason Glaspie said:

“I think this is to show that Teth Adam finally “got it” and is showing guilt, remorse, etc and wants to move on (”Sorry” being the word needed to access his gods). ”

No, in actuality, ‘antiquing’ was the word needed to access his gods. Or possibly ‘non-alcoholic’. In any event, it was from the database of words he almost never says.

>>I don’t believe that Jeff Smith’s Shazam takes place on Earth 5…it’s too different from classic Captain Marvel…which shows the inherrant problem of the rigid multiverse approach DC does.

Hmm. Part of that last comment got eaten. I was trying to reply with “Maybe that story took place on an alternate Earth 5″.

A couple of random comments: from the house ads, it looked like Mary was going to get Eclipsed at some point during the countdown proceedings, which strikes me as a fair way to briefly have a dark-ish Mary without doing too much long-term damage…

Also, my guess on the Giffen story is that it was going to be a punchline, late in the series. (Someone says something in her presence about her being such a sweet, virginal little thing and she comes back with a ‘No, I’m not; there was this cute guy at…’. Weak enough to not be worth doing, of course, but could make story sense…)

I find the “wait til the story’s over” defense lacking as well. Let’s say a guy comes up to you every hour on the hour and smacks you with a baseball bat. The next time you see the guy, he’s walking toward you, bat in hand. Should you really be criticized for assuming he’s going to hit you again? Should you “wait and see” if he does?

There has been nothing to indicate the Mary storyline is anything but a continuation of the horribly wrong direction DC has taken the Marvels in. I feel perfectly justified in saying “Thank you, no.”

I’m perfectly willing to acknowledge that THIS time, yeah, it might work out okay. But history dosen’t suggest it. Perhaps the Marvels will emerge as the great characters they once were.

Great.

Call me when that happens, okay?

Uh-oh! A superhero appears to be turning evil!! This is most definitely the first time this has ever happened ever!!!! Nothing will ever be the same!!!!!

I can’t believe someone as talented as Ordway would fall for this old gag.

I think this is a great move. fans will love the idea of having another bad person in the marvel family line-up. although i don’t like the idea of mary being that one i believe its much better that someone close to the marvel family wound up having the power of shazam and being as bad as adam. anyways lets see what this turn out. oh and if you guys make her bad please dont make her good again. or if you do not for a while.

“Does anybody know anything more about his Giffen/FKatJL claim? That really doesn’t sound like would’ve fit anywhere in that story as it played out.”

According to Giffen himself, it would’ve been a subtle joke- Mary would go on a date with Guy Gardner, and then stop wearing her white costume- a subtle hint that she had lost her virginity. Thankfully DC didn’t go for it- back then. Like most people have said here, I have little faith that DC will handle this well after all the character assassinations they’ve done since Identity Crisis.

DC needs an equivalent of Buffy’s Faith in their universe.

How come bad girls always dress like sluts?
Can’t there be more conservatively dressed bad girls?
Surely shorter skirts does not make one bad?

She’s turned into a goth! she must be bad!
It’s as annoying as when Batman beat up on actual punks with mo hawks and shit.

Like obviously the writer had a problem with the sex pistols.

In about 4 years time, when superboy comes back, it will be as an emo.

Oh wait it was already done in spider-man 3.
LAME>

I don’t actually have a problem with ‘darkening’ of mary marvel.

just the way she looks.

I think we should feel free to judge one little bit of the story because that is the way that they are produced.

The one and two shot stories that Dini is writing in Detective are great. But who expects to be satisfied with 1/ 52nd of an epic?

The problem is that we are expecting short story pacing in a novel. They’re incompatible.

Sign me up with the “come up with a new character” school of thought (doubly so for TRIALS OF SHAZAM, which I find interesting, but not when it incorporates the Marvels). The fact is, no-one to date has ever managed a grittty/realistic take that worked better than the old CC Beck/Otto Binder stories–though I did enjoy E. Nelson Bridwell’s work on the Marvels back in th seventies.

A reprint line from the old Fawcett books would suit me just fine (at a cheaper price than the Archives), and it would certainly appeal to younger readers.

I’ve never been a fan of the Marvel family. Captain Marvel and Black Adam are enough for me. I thought the concept of the magical family was really hokey. I also didn’t grow up in the sixties…twenty years later in fact.

I understand Jerry’s points. With the recent reveal of the multiverse I understand why DC is doing this. Cause now they have their own Fawcett universe where Mary is sweet, innocent, and wholesome. Yet in the DCU New Earth they are going to update this Mary to fit in a bit better. Captain Marvel fit in nicely the DCU…Mary, Jr, and the stupid Tiger never did. Now they have their own universe where the die hard fans of the Family can enjoy them. Now lets make this Mary cool so everybody else can enjoy her.

Mainstream comics ARE NOT FOR CHILDREN. Ever since they went direct market IMO they haven’t been. It’s the main problem with comics these days. I like kid comics! I love the JLU series personally. But I also love the current JLA.

Hi all,

Brian Cronin forwarded a little rant I had to this thread, and it’s stirred up some comments, which is great. I certainly wasn’t judging Countdown prematurely, as I hope to like it as much as “52.” My feelings on the overall darkening of comics in general, is what the post is really about. I read a fair amount of comic books, and I guess I’m an old fart, as I would like to see a little more optimism, and true heroics in the industry. Almost every character has been recast, it seems, for today’s audience, but many have lost what made them special. My original post addresses my own battles for 4 or 5 years, when I was writing Power of Shazam, with other editors “borrowing” the books characters for their own stories. I am not criticizing Peter David for wanting to write a comic about child molestation, just his inclination to use Mary Marvel as his victim. In the printed comic, his original storyline was watered down at the insistence of the Shazam editor and myself. If he’s writing Supergirl, he can do whatever he wants to her, so long as the editor approves. When borrowing a character, you don’t have that right. Again, I have no beef with Peter.
As for the Giffen story about wanting to have Mary Marvel lose her virginity and revert to the red costume, it was something I heard from a decent source, and sounds like the type of thing Keith would pitch, if only to shake up the room. Again, no beef with Giffen, whose work I love. Just trying to illustrate what I have observed, of the seeming need of fans/creators to drag a so-called innocent character through the mud.
Someone else pointed out that it would be boring for heroes to not get dragged through the mud, and that conflict equals good story. I agree wholeheartedly, but one can do that without turning a character into a murderer, or something. Spider-Man was a hero. He did the right thing whether it cost him personally. Sure he moaned about it later, that the police were after him, or the Daily Bugle was after him, or whatever, but he STILL was heroic.
I just read the current Countdown, and I am fine with it. I don’t own the Marvel Family characters, and no longer control their stories. When I read it, I am just a comic fan. Best, JEr

Countdown is plodding, dull and ugly on most counts so far, and I’m no fan of the gory sadism that has infected comics lately. However…

…I felt the same way as Jerry does now when Mary Marvel started talking like a teenage Rush Limbaugh in the pages of Power of Shazam. I thought, if he wants to write a dittohead culture war conservative superhero making snide comments about Bill Clinton, why doesn’t he invent one? I guess it’s just living through the past 800 years of the Bush administration, but it’s funny to think anyone could have ever equated “wholesome” with “Republican.”

I agree with Jerry’s comments completely.

It would be nice to read about heroes doing heroic things and a writer can have dark things going on around the character without making the character dark itself but that doesn’t seem to be the direction DC has been going in. I like Jerry’s Spider-Man analogy but I think what’s going on around DC is that they’re so lost amongst themselves that they don’t know what to do with their own characters anymore. Hence, the continous darkening, killing and bringing back of characters.

All it does is show a lack of creativity going on upstairs.
Frankly, I’m tired of all their Identity Crisis’, their Infinite Crisis’ and the upcoming Final Crisis… which we all know is about as final as Infinite.

Perhaps DC should just focus on stories about their characters being heroes instead of running around every three months, having these characters trying to figure out who they are and what earth they’re living on. The more they try and explain this stuff, the more they mess it up. Someone else said it perfectly: If DC actually knew what they were doing, they wouldn’t have to spend current stories fixing all the things they messed up in the past.

And the thing is, they’re still messing and killing characters hand over foot. What does that mean? Well, for starters, the mess they make today is the Crisis they’ll clean tomorrow.

-I find it tremendously disturbing when I read comments like “Comics aren’t for kids anymore” as was said above. I remember the History Channel’s Documentary “Comic Book Heroes Unmasked” In which a DC editor says “Comics are not just ‘not just for kids anymore’ They’re now MOSTLY not for kids” And I couldn’t beleive or understrand his pride in saying this. How can this be a good thing? Do these people realy not see how wrong it is?

It’s more than the issue of the Marvels. Those characters may well be the final battle ground over which the matter of comic content is at last decided.

Is there really, finally, no place for stories that are simply imagnitive, exciting and more than anything else, fun? Because that’s what Captain Marvel used to be all about.

Does it really ruin all “serious” comics to have even one book that uplifts and inspires rather than depresses?

Is resistance truly futile?

Jerry,

I agree with you whole heartedly. Create a new character if you want to go dark and gritty. Don’t violate the integrity of the original concept just for a few fanboys. When I produced the X-MEN show for FOX-TV, I made sure the characters stayed true to their roots as much as I could.

i like dc comics evrey one in the dc comics like batman and superman all so catwom becuse they make move if in dc comics make move i will i them too

-I find it tremendously disturbing when I read comments like “Comics aren’t for kids anymore” as was said above. I remember the History Channel’s Documentary “Comic Book Heroes Unmasked” In which a DC editor says “Comics are not just ‘not just for kids anymore’ They’re now MOSTLY not for kids” And I couldn’t beleive or understrand his pride in saying this. How can this be a good thing? Do these people realy not see how wrong it is?

It’s more than the issue of the Marvels. Those characters may well be the final battle ground over which the matter of comic content is at last decided.

Is there really, finally, no place for stories that are simply imagnitive, exciting and more than anything else, fun? Because that’s what Captain Marvel used to be all about.

Does it really ruin all “serious” comics to have even one book that uplifts and inspires rather than depresses?

Is resistance truly futile?

I agree with this.

I agree 110% with what Jerry said. DC, in my opinion, has mostly ruined the Marvels. Trails of Shazam is a travesty and I don’t know where Mary is going. I have faith in Paul Dini though. In the past, he’s stayed true to the basic concepts of heroes being heroes. I hope this hasn’t changed. I also believe that not all the people at DC have the same opinion on the Marvels.
Their product line reflects that the Fawcett version of Captain Marvel is still what they want to produce.
Their 13″ action figure, for instance, sells very well and is becoming harder to get. So that would tell me that not all fans are up for grim and gritty.

I have just finished the “Countdown” were Mary gets the “Black Marvel” treatmen. I must say I’m not a fan of the new costume (I don’t like that short, frillly skirt and the sleeves that go all the way over the hands look kind of funny. I also miss the cape), but I am intrigued. Mary does not apear to have lost her innocence, but maybe she has a new set of powers. Maybe something in those powers will tempt her. But if they stay true to Mr. Orday’s interpretation, she will rise above it and become a greater hero for it.

Remember, Mary was always a little insecure (not much, just a little) as one might expect a young girl to be, but when her inhibitions were taken away, she became unbeatable. Imagine, then, a Mary innocent nutnot naive, good but not vengeful, knowlegeable but not cynical, confident but not reckless. That sounds like the Fawcett Mary to me, or like Power Girl without the man-hating grudge or like Superman without the anti-Luthor bias. She could be one of the greatest heroes out there.

Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Captain America et al all had the opportunity to grow and evolve over the years. Sometimes the change was gradual, sometimes momentous, sometimes imperceptible. Yet though all these changes there still had to be something that stayed true to the original concept. Over the years what was important about the original concept has become distilled, until it is almost common knowledge and part of out cultureal heritage to know what these heroes are.

The Marvels never had that chance. Their characers were defined very early and remained the same (aside from Mary’s costume) until they were shut down in 1953. Thus they did not have the chance to eveolve, for the forces of trial and error and market demand todistill the casic concepts of their charachters so they could survive the capricious whims of fasion and cultural trends. When they were brought back in 1972, their original audience was long past the age of reading comics, and the new comic audience wasn’t ready for them, nor were the writers. although by the time of their last stories in World’s Finest, DC had pretty much gotten a handle on them, the subsequent demands for change led to changes that were too shocking for the audience that had gotten used to them, and failed to grab the new audience as was intended.

So now I think DC is faced with a situation where the classisist fans are not numerous enough to support the old-time characters, but are enogh to raise an embarrasing hue and cry when they try to update. They have to update or die, but there is no precedent, no established, inviolate, distillation of what the Marvels are that has been proven, the their satisfaction, that enough people will come back to buy for them to stick with.

http://www.captainmarvelculture.com

I posted this elsewhere, but I’ve loved the discussion here as well:

I think that Jerry Ordway’s original central complaint is very valid. A character’s central intent or creative genesis does, to some, extent, map out the types of stories or tales that work well with them as fictional entites.

Sherlock Holmes is a detective who solves crimes through inductive or deductve reasoning. It might be interesting to see him deal with the essentially irrational like in the famous novel The Seven Percent Solution (dealing with drug addiction, the origin of psychology, and mental illness). But it probably wouldn’t work to have him wielding a bazooka and kicking goons in Lethal Weapon 5.

Likewise, using Peanuts characters for a life insureance commercial is a little surreal but makes a vague sort of sense. You buy life insurance usually because you are worried about your spous or for your kids and Charlie Brown is the type of character who worries about things. Two messages that are the key to the appeal of insurance. But using Peanuts characters to advertise condoms probably doesn’t hold up so well. “No glove, no love,” says Lucy to Shroeder doesn’t really wash, does it?

But Mary Marvel was used very effectively in a short story from Bizarro Comics. In the story Mary meets up with Supergirl to catch up on old times. In the story it becoems clear that Mary Marvel’s essential character is the normal girl next door, not the idealized version of wholesomeness and fun that Supergirl is. And the characterization is right on. The Mary Marvel of Bizarro Comics loves her family and leads a normal life, and hardly ever thinks of using the old wizard’s magic — because she never used her powers out of pride or a sense of ego. She didn’t enjoy the spotlight, just helping people. Supergirl is given as a contrast — a friendly, wonderful contrast. Because Mary loves her old friend Supergirl, too. She’s just NOT that person.

The examples that Mr. Ordway gave about bad approaches to Mary Marvel are similar to those involving Peanuts and Sherlock Holmes above.

I think Countdown is closer to the Bizarro Comics tale, at least so far.

I have a Mary Marvel collection that streches from her first apearance in Wow Comics # 9 through the Golden Age and the early 1950’s. It picks up again in the 1970’s and again with Power of Shazam, and again with PAD’s Supergirl and Formerly Known as the Justice League.

I think the argument could be made that Black Adam and Captain Marvel are “alter egos” in the classic sense developed by Cicero. They are the same essential character with only the accident of history to separate them. Both times Shazam selected individuals with a strong sense of family, with self-confidence and pride, and with a strong sense of duty to receive his powers.

The essential difference is when they were selected. Teth-Adam was an adult with a family when he receieved his powers. He followed duty and pride to defend his allies in Egypt and paid the price in the loss of the only people he loved, his wife and child. Again, in the modern age, Black Adam accepted –no, SOUGHT — a role as the savior of Kahndaq and paid the ultiamte price again in the lives of those he loved.

In contrast, Billy received his powers as a child. His parents were already dead, he did not remember his siter but found her later in life. He falls in love with people like other kids (remember Stargirl) but in the background is the sense of duty and responsbility that also drove Black Adam.

It extends even to his realtionships with villains. Billy always does the appropriate and “right” thing but in avery ordinary way. It goes even to teh point in some old storie where Sivana would be defeated and take off his glasses and say, “I suppose you’re going to punch me now.” “I’m afraid so,” says Captain Marvel, as he thwacks him and takes him off to jail.

That is Billy in a nutshell. Billy can leave the Earth and take on Shazam’s mantle just as Black Adam probably would have been able to do once upon a time. Why? Because he believes in preserving the order of things.

But Mary Batson is not the same as Teth-Adam or Billy Batson. For her, family, love and compassion come first. She gets powers because of her love for her newfound brother. She fights evil only to help others.

She accepts things that aren’t really quite right. For example, she pretends to believe old frauds like Uncle Dudley who dress up in a Captain Marvel costume and pretend to have Shazambago. She tolerates and loves a freckle-faced imp. She perceives the good in people where her brother takes a hard line based on his perceptions of good and evil. Where Freddie as CM3 acted first and asked questions later, Mary Marvel took the opposite course. She thinks through what she does so that it helps but hurts others as little as possible.

There is a priceless scene in Formerly Known as the Justice League that perfectly protrays this — believe it or not — when a demon attacks and all hell is literally breaking loose. Mary Marvel ends the whole thing with one gentle slap.

smek.

THAT’S Mary Marvel.

–more –

Mary Marvel is not Black Adam’s alter ego, but his polar opposite.

Where Black Adam chose power and an attempt to re-work the world in his image of justice, she chooses family and the protection of individual people. And I think Black Adam knows it. In his cynicism and pride, he sees Mary Marvel as an even bigger fool than Billy.

But he can’t bring himself to kill her.

Why? Maybe because, even in the heart of the most evil man in the world, there is still a bit of good. A bit that only Mary Marvel can see.

Do you really think anybody else in the world could have walked into that room — that charnel house — from Countdown # 47 and walk back out again? Would Black Adam have even listened to anyone but Mary Batson? I don’t think so.

Black Adam is more than cruelty. He is bitterness and pain and love denied. So he gives Mary Marvel her wish.

He’s convinced that power and a corrupt world will corrupt her too. He thinks that will make him feel better. You and I know better.

In fact, there may be a little part of Black Adam himself that hopes he is wrong.

I agree that Mary Marvel is not about darkness and power. Definitely, I agree. But only Nixon can go to China. And only Mary Marvel can light the way out of Black Adam’s self-imposed hell.

Now, that’s the story I would write if I were Paul Dini. He may have something else in mind and I probably won’t like it.

Is DIni using Mary Marvel to explore the boundaries of what is good, the nature of pride, the strength of family, and the tear in one’s heart when everything that you love is taken away. . . ? If so, although it’s a slightly darker theme, I think that’s still within the scope of her original character.

Sometimes the only way you know there is darkness is to have a little light. If Mary Marvel has to “grow up,” if she’s to be a hero in the “real world”, this is one approach to take. Turning her into Lobo wouldn’t be.

So. . .

I’ll be looking over shoulder of my friends buying Countdown and if it’s good I’ll pick it up. I find myself unable to repeat the disappoitnments of 52 as far as pacing and timing are concerned, but I may reconsider.

Well said!
(A bit long, but well said

I’m hoping that any “corruption” of Mary Marvel is more along the lines of her battle with new powers (do Black Adam’s powers carry a tinge of dark as reflected in her costume??).

In regards to Captain Zorikh’s comments, I’m looking forward to Mike Kunkel’s version of the Marvel Family in the upcoming DC series for just this reason - bringing a classic character into modern times for newer audiences without taking him too far from his origins. Publishers are always going to fight the battle of “classisist fans” vs newer audiences, but I think Kunkel is the storyteller to walk that fine balance.

Hi There,

I think DC Comics just like to let everyone know they don’t care about Marvel Family at all. No one is taking iconical characters and elements from Superman, for an example and taking “to the edge”. Darker Mary Marvel? Don’t make me laugh.
The Marvel Family needs a good writer. Taking the characters to the recent times doesn’t mean that you will wreck the mythos just for comic sell-outs.
Someone remembers the spidey’s clone saga? It was a bad waste of money and paper. Just like this one here.

I agree 100% with Mr. Ordway.
His interpretation of the Marvel family was the best since the original and is the definitive modern version I would say. It’s a classic, good, fun and exciting run.

DC comics are depressing since IDENTITY CRISIS.
The only thing I buy from them since then are archives edition and TPBs. Marvel is not much better.

Aside from a few rare exceptions, modern superheroes comics target teenage or young adults males that have yet to get laid and that have a very narrow definition of what “cool” really means.

Comic book publisher like Marvel and DC are now corporate whores that have no interest of just publishing good and fun comics. The money isn’t in the actual paper comic books anymore, it’s in action figures and merchandise and movie rights. They crave the attention of other “legitimate” medias so much that they try to “out-shock” each other by killing off their major heroes (Robin, Superman, Captain America, etc.), or changing their sexual orientation (Northstar, Rawhide Kid) or making them more violent than a Tarentino movie character.

No wonder this medium is going downhill so fast.
Wholesome and fun characters and stories can be fun and cool too! I don’t mind violent or “adult” (whatever that means) comics, I just wish we could have a choice. I don’t mind for updating the old and classic characters as long as there is a respect for what those characters always stood for. Like Ordway wrote, if you want to change what a character is all about, just create a new one! Moore did it with WATCHMEN, Millar did it with WANTED, and they were both very good books that sold well on their own merit without destroying someone else’s creations.