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While Ororo's lips are a bit exagerated in the last panel, it is hardly to the point of being insulting. All the other panels are finely drawn if you ask me; Johnny's face, for instance, is just as ape-like as that of Tchalla - and, frankly, a whole lot less majestic. Apes are remarkably similar to all humans anyway, so being ape-like is not much in and of itself.

Let's face it: while Ororo is a different case, Tchalla is expected to be very far indeed from a dark-skinned Caucasian; his genetic heritage is African all the way, and proudly so. Jim Steranko once described revisionism of Chop-Chop of the Blackhawks as a "quasi-caucasian" as even more offensive than the original walking stereotype; while I do not really agree with him, that would be true here with Tchalla. It would not be particularly respectful to want to depict him as a nearly European black man.

Besides, this is comics. For a while Wolverine was shown to have no more than a residual nose, and I don't think that was any sort of slight to the character.

In these scenes above, T'Challa looks just like the main character from CrossGen's Negation series, also drawn by Pelletier. I think it looks like darn fine art; it certainly doesn't look insulting or demeaning to me - and if the panel with Ororo kissing T'Challa makes her lips look a little awkward, I can live with that. Drawing someone in the act of puckering up for a kiss and having that come off smoothly is not an easy feat.

Possibly it makes sense to post some of the art to which Ye Olde Iowa was referring, as a point of comparison. YOI's critique is NOT of this particualr issue of FF.

I prefer realistic portrayals of characters of African descent rather than caucasian features and brown skin coloring. Is that racist? I mean look at how artists like Ed Benes or Rob Liefeld draw African American characters, is that what YOI would prefer?

Er, it's Paul Pelletier. He has a long history of giving everybody big lips.

(cute meta-moment where McDuffie has T’Challa comment that a lot of people seem to have a problem with him having so many achievements).

I don't think it's cute. It comes off intrusive, petty, and just pissy. What, is he carrying on his message board debate over the Silver Surfer fight into the actual comic book? Geez, man, grow up! Plus, it seems like he's trying to imply racism on the part of fans..what else can he be getting at with that comment? I'm already not that big a fan of McDuffie, and this just encourages me to ignore all the positive reviews of this book and continue to avoid buying it, as he seems to still have some of those annoying habits I hate.

If Ororo's lips are exaggerated in that last panel, it's because she's kissing T'Challa on the cheek.

I don’t think it’s cute. It comes off intrusive, petty, and just pissy.

Why? Agreed it's a little petty, but I don't see any grounds for assuming it's mean-spirited. If fans can justify obsessing over this stuff as light-hearted fun, why can't the creators be given the same leeway?

In re: exaggerated lips...I dunno, you can get a bit carried away with artistic PC-ness. It's very possible to draw a realistic black person with a heavier mouth than some would be comfortable with. To me, the art above just shows off a remarkably handsome African man.

I'm not reading Fantastic Four so I can't really judge based on one page but I think it is a bit much. I think that the heavy shading on the lower half of Panther's mouth makes it a bit much. And Storm's lips are a bit too much. However, in that panel and the one before it Panther looks fine. Maybe the artist just has a hard time drawing people in profile?

"Why? Agreed it’s a little petty, but I don’t see any grounds for assuming it’s mean-spirited. If fans can justify obsessing over this stuff as light-hearted fun, why can’t the creators be given the same leeway?"

Well, Brian, to the fans who get -- what's a good phrase? Wait, I've got it -- petty and pissy over stuff like T'Challa getting the upper hand over the Surfer, it's not light-hearted fun. The Established Power Level Pecking Order is Serious Business.

And by "Brian", you mean "km".

Yes. Yes I do.

I don’t think it’s cute. It comes off intrusive, petty, and just pissy. What, is he carrying on his message board debate over the Silver Surfer fight into the actual comic book? Geez, man, grow up! Plus, it seems like he’s trying to imply racism on the part of fans..what else can he be getting at with that comment? I’m already not that big a fan of McDuffie, and this just encourages me to ignore all the positive reviews of this book and continue to avoid buying it, as he seems to still have some of those annoying habits I hate.

Oh, I think it was a bad scene, too.

Just a cute bad scene.

Well, Brian, to the fans who get — what’s a good phrase? Wait, I’ve got it — petty and pissy over stuff like T’Challa getting the upper hand over the Surfer, it’s not light-hearted fun. The Established Power Level Pecking Order is Serious Business.

There is a difference. First, it's an internet message board with anonymous posters. Rightly or wrongly, heated and sometimes irrational debate is just the nature of the beast. Whatever. But a professional writer should be above working something so petty into the actual story, I think. Maybe it's a double standard, but I hold pros to a higher standard, at least within the pages of their books. Second, I don't think the argument over the Surfer and TChalla was THAT irrational. There were persuasive arguments on both sides of the debate, and I don't think fans deserve to be called out just for disagreeing with a particular depiction. It's part of the job, just move on.

"There is a difference. First, it’s an internet message board with anonymous posters."

Except for people like me, who use our real names. As, for that matter, does McDuffie when he enters the fray on occasion.

"Rightly or wrongly, heated and sometimes irrational debate is just the nature of the beast. Whatever."

Jesus, you have low standards.

"But a professional writer should be above working something so petty into the actual story, I think. Maybe it’s a double standard,"

It is. Why not equally deride the petty behavior on the part of the readers? What's good for the goose, etc.

"but I hold pros to a higher standard, at least within the pages of their books. "Second, I don’t think the argument over the Surfer and TChalla was THAT irrational."

And you are entirely entitled to that wrong opinion.

"There were persuasive arguments on both sides of the debate,"

Given your previously defined standards, I find this assessment suspect.

"and I don’t think fans deserve to be called out just for disagreeing with a particular depiction."

Why not? If they choose to make asses of themselves in public, why is it poor form to point this out? Especially in a far more subdued and civil manner than any of the aforementioned posters bothered to show McDuffie.

"It’s part of the job, just move on."

Being insulted by fanatics isn't part of any job.

Paul Pelletier draws everyone with big lips; look at, for example, Mr. Immortal in GLA: Misassembled, or even Sue in this arc.

Plus, it seems like he’s trying to imply racism on the part of fans..what else can he be getting at with that comment?

Okay, now you've just gone right 'round the bend. There isn't a word of that exchange that implies racism. Quoted for everyone who didn't buy the book:

BP: I still don't understand what you could have done to him to create such enmity.

RR: Nothing.

RR: He truly believes that my achievements somehow lessen his own.

OM: T'challa gets a lot of that, too.

RR: As Ben said, it's irrational.

Want to highlight the implied racism in there, for me?

And while I didn't read the exchange as a poke at the whiny fanboys, I can totally see how someone would take it that way. However, I agree with those who say "and?"

So what? Writers drop references to tv, songs, movies and books all the time - why not to internet bitchiness, as well? The conversation didn't break the flow of the story, and the exchange didn't break the flow of the conversation. Reed was making a point, Storm seconded it, the story moved on. If it was supposed to be an attack on the fanboys, it was the most oblique attack ever...

I haven't read the issue, but BP being underestimated by Americans goes back at least to Priest's run on the title. And his public perception issues in Wakanda are also a constant.
I think it's too much of a reach to assume the comment is related to some internet feud, especially when there's long established in character & continuity reasons for the comment.

Yo Go Re:

I didn't read the issue, so I was going by Brian's paraphrasing:

cute meta-moment where McDuffie has T’Challa comment that a lot of people seem to have a problem with him having so many achievements

So in my mind, I pictured T'Challa telling someone "Gee, it seems that a lot of people have a problem with me having so many achievements. Hmmm, I wonder why?"

Imagining it that way, it seemed that racism was being implied. Based on what you quoted, however, I admit it does seem to be a little different than the way Brian paraphrased.

Wow Michael, based on the catty, insulting and condescending tone of your remarks, I shouldn't be surprised that you support the way McDuffie handles his critics.

Anyway, yes I do have double standards. Whenever you have a big audience with a diverse cross-section, you get all types, from the classy and highbrow to the crass and crude. You can't please everyone and you have to have a thick skin if you are going to play in the big leagues. If you are a big league baseball player, you can expect some low class drunks to heckly you occasionally. For the most part, the players ignore them on the field and look petty if they stand on the field heckling back. You make movies, you can expect the occasional harsh and nitpicking review from a critic. Most of them don't address those critics within the content of their follow-up movies. Fans at away games hold up meanspirited signs sometimes from the stands during basketball games, and that's wrong, but if a basketball player comes out giving the hostile away crowd the finger or holding up his old signs, he looks ridiculous and insecure to get caught up in it because he's a pro. Spirited criticism is just the nature of mass entertainment. So long as it doesn't get personal and nasty, it's fair game. Don't do a profession where you have tens of thousands of people judging you if you can't handle bad feedback. Or at least keep that stuff on the message boards where it belongs.

I dunno...I can't think of any specific examples offhand, but I'm pretty sure a lot of the public figures you cite have taken swipes at their critics over the years.

Again, I agree, it's fairly petty for a professional to bother addressing his critics, and it can come off as 'ridiculous and insecure'.

On the other hand...There's a major difference between obsessively hunting down every little negative vibe (as per the 'Mayor Ebert' character in the Godzilla remake)and simply taking a few playful swipes in return, as McDuffie's apparently doing here. I still can't see why a creator isn't allowed to have as much fun with his creations as the fans are.

anyway, i don't think many of my points still stand because after seeing the exchange directly quoted, it turns out not to be as bad as what I originally imagined after all.

So, what did folks think of Ororo's portrayal in Priest's Black Panther?

Seems like Pelletier is using Velluto's depiction as a leaping off point to me (I'm thinking specifically of the 'Sturm und Drang' arc in issues 26-29).

I didn’t read the issue, so I was going by Brian’s paraphrasing

Okay, I totally get where you're coming from, now: you're right, it is easy to read an implication of racism into the paraphrase. If I hadn't read the issue, I might have come to the same conclusion...

BTW, since when is Ororo not African herself, as opposed to a black American (who just happened to grow up a street urchin in Africa?) Is this a relatively recent retcon? (And what was the point of it?)

BTW, since when is Ororo not African herself, as opposed to a black American (who just happened to grow up a street urchin in Africa?) Is this a relatively recent retcon? (And what was the point of it?)

It's been part of her origin since a year after she was introduced. X-Men #102 had her origin, where it was revealed that her mother is African and her father American.

I noticed the lip thing too, but, as has been pointed out, Pelletier just draws big lips.

Secondly I have to question why people associated big, thick lips with being "ape like". Most apes have thin lips; humans (of any "race") probably have the fullest lips of all the great and lesser apes.

I have been reading all of the back and forth about racism in the FF and I have one artistic comment.I think that Storm and her husband are very handsome characters and certainly don't seem to disparage African-American's or African people. I do have a concern about the trend of the FF b not seeming to be able to leave the Baxter Building and turn the corner without asking help from T"challa. It seems that every character has been downplayed to to make the King of Wakanda the Big Deal. Panther has his own book he does'nt need to gobble up the FF as well. Even Storm's getting shorted and I've loved her since 1975!Don't get me satrted about the Surfer battle, that made No sense!