Comic Book Resources

My sense of things is that
a) Video game story is, in fact, improving, but
b) The Darkness and Ultimate Spider-Man are not necessarily the games that I'd point at to demonstrate that.

The standard carrier for story in videogames these days among recent games is probably "Bioshock". The strong sales performance that game is seeing on consoles is the biggest boost to having an immersive story that I think game companies will see. I believe that "Stranglehold" also has the potential to be a strong storytelling experience.

The concept of shooters growing a plot comes out of the original "Half Life" game, and is the spiritual father to pretty much any integration of action based gameplay and story elements. Right now the high-water level for "story" in a videogame title would be considered by any to be the D&D roleplaying game "Planscape:Torment", which is unfortunately almost ten years old right now. The company responsible for that game, however, has made engaging stories a hallmark of their design, with the "Knights of the Old Republic" series, "Jade Empire", and the upcomind sci-fi game "Mass Effect".

To a degree, videogame story is dependent on serving the gameplay needs of the script, which makes it quite difficult to plot out interesting character arcs. I doubt at this point that any licensed characer is going to be able to have meaningful stories play out in games. If Jenkins and Reed won their comics gigs on the strength of their game writing, their talents were likely developed in the creation of strong individual set pieces.

We'll get to the point eventually where Ebert will have to shut up about video games not being art. We're not there yet, though.

Many times, even when the story is decent, the whole thing is let down by the game itself anyway.

The recent Justice League Heroes is an example of that - apparently the plot really kicks in a really unexpected direction a while after you start playing, but I was so fed up of punching what must be the worst thing you can have ever in a comic videogame - endless robots - that I got bored and gave up. So I have no idea what happened.

In fact, pretty much all comic games I've played have been fairly rubbish. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head that were decent were The Punisher - and there's hardly a story to that one - and ye olde side scrolling Batman on the Spectrum / C64. (important - I don't mean the one based on the Batman film, and I also don't mean the 3d, isometric Head-over-Heels style one where Batman has to recover "parts of the Batmobile" (shudder).

Oh wait, one of the Hulk games was good, too. Can't remember the title, the last one that came out anyway.

But again - not much plot to speak of. And I can't remember if it was more of a film tie-in. Doh.

I'd say that it's much like comics, really; it depends on the game in specific. For example, if you're in any way, shape or form a horror fan, 'Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem' delivers a genuinely great story, with all sorts of clever and immersive elements. It's Lovecraftian without simply re-using the Mythos, and it's wonderful.

Comics games themselves, though, don't seem to lend themselves to video games. In no small part, it's because super-hero comics are about conflicts between two larger-than-life characters ("When Titans Clash!", Reason to Love Comics #366), and video games tend to need lots more gameplay than that. That said, I've enjoyed 'City of Heroes' and its storylines...

Eh, I don't think video games are ever going to be a major storytelling medium. While occasionally interesting, the stories have never really advanced, nor do I think they ever will, above the level of a decent popcorn movie.

But that's OK; games don't need to be Finnegan's Wake to be art. I think (and I've said this before on CBR) the real future of games as art is more along the lines of architecture or sculpture: excellent structure and design, enhancing the finished product as an example of its function.

While storylines have improved over the years, it has usually been at the detriment of what makes video games unique. Just as comic book storylines have become more "mature" because they lack captions, sound effects, and thought bubbles, refuse to explain past events, use "widescreen" panels so that you never have two panels adjacently juxtaposed, and pace "for the trade"-- that is, they've become more "mature" at the expense of what makes the medium of comics special.

Video games are first and foremost systems. A set of rules that can be extrapolated a hundred different ways. If you boil down the original Super Mario Bros., it only has a few "rules", which are then extrapolated a number of different ways.

For example, if you jump on two enemies consecutively, you'll score twice as many points-- 100 points for the first one, 200 for the next, 400 for the third, etc. This same "rule" is used when you kick a turtle's shell at enemies-- the more you hit, the higher you score, until you eventually score an extra life.

Now, this is extrapolated in an interesting way in the third world, in which you can jump on the same turtle shell, positioned on a stairway, an almost infinite number of times, scoring hundreds of extra lives. And all that comes, in the end, from that one rule.

It's an extremely robust game. Getting slightly back on topic--

It is possible to have a storyline more sophisticated than "save the princess". The possiblity inherent in video games is the possibility of having a number of different potential story outcomes-- like choose-your-own-adventure, but more intuitive. The reality is that, more often than not, you turn on the game, you watch a cinematic for five minutes, you take a step into a room, you watch a cinematic for a few more minutes, you play a level, you watch a cinematic for a few more minutes, you fight a boss, another cinematic-- i.e., it's not really interactive, and not really intuitive-- and those are the two hallmarks of the medium.

It's something akin to the Derek Jarman movie "Blue" or Godard's "Letter to Jane"-- both consist of one image (in the former case, a blue screen; in the latter, the famous Jane Fonda photo in Hanoi) that the directors talk about for ninety minutes. While I have a certain sympathy for Jarman-- he was going blind from AIDS at the time-- neither are particularly cinematic. The films defeat the whole purpose of film, and I'm generally wary of any work that is so avidly against the tools provided by the medium it works in.

In the case of video games and comic books, it's almost like the creators are _embarrassed_ by the things that make those mediums special and worth-while; they'd rather make them like the movies, which has become a more "respectable" medium in the last few decades.

And that embarrassment, I'll never, ever understand.

But Michael, the fact that they've even risen to the level of decent popcorn flick from the near-storiless point from which they came (Pong, Pac-man, etc.) is sure evidence that they may continue to evolve - and evolve beyond the point of mere popcorn flick. I see the potential of videogames as being similar to comics; they are both creative media with less than lustrous origins growing and becoming ever-more interesting, while developing in unexpected ways along unexpected paths.

It's funny, though, Tom. Storytelling does get in the way of certain games: games that are either poorly conceived or are by design more about the gameplay than the environment. Super Mario Bros., for instance, wouldn't bear a more robust story gracefully. Just like The Spectacular Spider-Ham wouldn't be the right place to treat Jimmy Corrigan-like themes of despair, loneliness, familial detachment, and personal madness.

Some stories are better when they're slight.

That said, there's no way I could be convinced that Half-Life or Grim Fandango or World of Warcraft are diminished by their storylines. Quite the opposite, really.

I'd say somewhat, but you should really rely on the stuff you do in games for entertainment mostly.

Ever played Deus Ex? IMO that game's story achieves a level above a decent popcorn movie.

"Just like The Spectacular Spider-Ham wouldn’t be the right place to treat Jimmy Corrigan-like themes of despair, loneliness, familial detachment, and personal madness."

Actually, that sounds pretty awesome. I would totally add that to my pull.

"That said, there’s no way I could be convinced that Half-Life or Grim Fandango or World of Warcraft are diminished by their storylines. Quite the opposite, really."

Would I be a complete ignoramous if I said I never heard of these games?

The best comic adapted game I've ever played plotwise was the PS2 version of the Punisher that Ennis and Palmiotti wrote, and even then, that was more just the characterization and dialogue than the plot itself. The fundamental problem with a lot of these games is that they focus more on giving you endless waves of faceless cannon fodder to deal with rather than actually developing the characterization or featuring character interaction to the extent that a good comic storyline can.

That said, although I haven't played The Darkness, possibly some of Jenkins' best work has been in videogames, namely his writing for the Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver series. Sure, the dialogue is overly expositionary, but the integration of the plotlines and events of each game into a cohesive whole gets more impressive with each installment.

I think the last game I really appreciated the storytelling of was Metal Gear Solid 2, although Killer7 came close. K7 was more me being impressed with the sheer audacity of the game design than the actual plotline itself, though.

"The reality is that, more often than not, you turn on the game, you watch a cinematic for five minutes, you take a step into a room, you watch a cinematic for a few more minutes, you play a level, you watch a cinematic for a few more minutes, you fight a boss, another cinematic– i.e., it’s not really interactive, and not really intuitive– and those are the two hallmarks of the medium."

You just described Xeonsaga, one of the best interactive video novels - and *worst* games - I've ever played.

Final Fantasy's newest installment has an incredible story.

Make that "prettiest interactive video novels."

There's nothing at all special about the Halo series (it's a shooter, just like a thousand before it) aside from the trilogy storyline, which is good enough that when Halo 2 came out, people discussing the game had the forethought to include spoiler warnings in their posts. There's a lot more to that game than just shooting stuff, apparently.

And honestly, the only reason videogames are "interactive video novels" right now is that no one has thought up a good way around it yet. Think back to the early days of tv, when it was just a stage play performed in front of a camera. No three-camera set-ups, no unique use of the format... just what the authors were familiar with. It was a long process to get that changed, so I don't fault games for taking their time - after all, the "story is as important as the controls" idea is less than a decade old at this point...

Wait, I'm confused now. On first read through of the blog entry I thought we were just talking about comic-to-game storylines. But upon re-reading the final paragraph it seems like the question is more about games in general even though the title of the piece is about "comic book videogames".

But now everyone is talking about Halo and Metal Gear :S

I would put it at around 18 years old, actually, yo go re. I would say that "the story is more important than the controls" is the age you suggest.

And it's one the industry needs to let die.

Paperghost: The perfect way to play Justice League Heroes is the way I did it--with my 6 year old son. He loved punching the robots (and turning them into bunnies with Zatanna and THEN punching them), and he could get though most of the levels by himself. He only needed help with some of the bosses near the end, and so I got to miss all the dull stuff and play along with all the cool stuff and watch the "story" unfold.

And, by the way, it's not much of a story, so you didn't miss much. But fighting Darkseid is always good times.

What's a Halo?

I know LOTS of people who play the Metal Gear Solid games specifically FOR the story.

Halo is a pretty generic first person shooter, which I don't much care for. I don't get the obsessive love many people seem to have for it. I suspect, it's because none of them have actually played Half Life.

"“That said, there’s no way I could be convinced that Half-Life or Grim Fandango or World of Warcraft are diminished by their storylines. Quite the opposite, really.”

Would I be a complete ignoramous if I said I never heard of these games?"

yes!

I don't play games to get stories. Just like I don't read or watch something to get a sense of accomplishment or playfulness.

There are RPGs that have tons of story. I'm not all that fond of them myself, especially the Japanese-style ones, but there are still lots of them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I thought the Spiderman 2 game, tying into the film, had a better story than the film.
Instead of giving up being Spiderman, Black Cat convinced him to give up being Peter Parker. It had the same effect, and got the character to the same places as in the film, but was much more interesting.
Ultimate Spiderman has an alright story - hilariously it actually feels padded! But the game play itself is so poor and repetitive you don't care.
(After the joys of jumping off sky scrapers and getting a sense of vertigo in Spiderman 2, in Ultimate Spiderman they decided to keep you close to the ground... because apparently that's what everybody likes about Spidey).

As for non-comic games, the stories have been entertaining in themselves for a couple of years now.
GTA: San Andreas had a plot/game twist I honestly didn't see coming, and didn't know what would happen next (shit that was an exciting moment, both in the game itself, and how it got me thinking about the possibilities of the medium).

They're putting more story into games, yes, but the quality of the stories is still pretty low.

"““That said, there’s no way I could be convinced that Half-Life or Grim Fandango or World of Warcraft are diminished by their storylines. Quite the opposite, really.”

Would I be a complete ignoramous if I said I never heard of these games?”

yes!""

Then I guess I'm an ignoramous.

I would like to recommend that everyone play Okami for the PS2.

One of my favorite adaptations is in the X-Men Legends 2 game wherein they essentially adapted the Age of Apocalypse storyline without altering the Ultimate Universe continuity too much. Any game that starts you in Genosha and ends fighting the Living Monolith is okay by me. They also used the idea that so many well known characters were used in the first game to bring out the Brood, Sauron, Sugarman, Garokk, and Lady Deathstrike to name a few. The Ultimate Alliance videogame also does a good job of working within the entire continuity of the Marvel universe. By presenting a sort of Marvel equivalent to Luthor's Society, they give an excuse to introduce all sorts of villains and take the gameplay into cool levels like Asgard and Atlantis. I was just sad you couldn't play as the Hulk.

I would put it at around 18 years old, actually. I would say that “the story is more important than the controls” is the age you suggest.

And it’s one the industry needs to let die.

yeah, that's what I meant to say. "More" instead of "as." But why should they let it die?

They’re putting more story into games, yes, but the quality of the stories is still pretty low.

In some cases, sure. But the best games? The ones people rave about? Those mostly have good stories...

In some cases, sure. But the best games? The ones people rave about? Those mostly have good stories…

The ones I'm thinking of don't. Halo? Nope. Metal Gear Solid? Nope. Which ones are you thinking of?

The best video game stories reach summer blockbuster movie level, at best.

Psychonauts not only had a cool story, but was laugh-out-loud funny as well.

When movies stopped, if only for a brief moment, with camera movement and editing, to accomodate the reproduction of stage plays by way of speaking lines into poorly-concealed microphones, they stopped being movies.

When comics become huge blocks of text with tiny talking heads from the same deadpan angle for pages on end, in which the dialogue is the only thing that matters, they stop being comics.

When video games stop being interactive systems, they stop being video games.

Any trend that seeks to minimize the things that make a particular medium different from more respectable media by aping that more respectable media is a detrimental one.

That's why story should never be more, as, or even close to as important as gameplay. It's a different kind of artform, like cooking or baseball-- this is, of course, employing McCloud's very useful definition of art, though I would argue, personally, that sex can be an art of its own.

Imagine if cooking, baseball, and sex sought to diminish the things that make them cooking, baseball, and sex in order to emulate film or literature. Cooking should not concern itself with characterization or plot; neither should video games. Baseball should not be embarrassed about a strike-out; comics should not be embarrassed to put two distinct images side-by-side, or of thought balloons.

And every thrust I make during sex should not be interrupted by a cut-scene; neither should every level I play in a video game.

Though, come to think of it, a "save" feature during intercourse would be nice...

If you don't think Halo and MGS (the first one - they've gotten progressively more indecipherable) aren't better than summer blockbusters, then you've been seeing some much better summer blockbusters than I have, and I wouldn't even consider MGS to be one of the best stories out there. For pure summer movie levels of game story, I'd look to Eidos' first Tomb Raider, to Doom, or to the Halo-progenitor Marathon. Or, for a more recent example, Shadow of the Colossus.

The cooking/sex/baseball analogy isn't comparing things on the same level. Saying that videogames need stories isn't like saying that cooking needs characterization, it's like saying that cooking needs garlic. Or that movies need color. Yes, you can get by without that portion of the final product, but it's better with it than without. Videogames without stories stop evolving at the Pong level - very loose computer programming. "Push button X now." Just a series of commands.

A good example of a "videogame" that strays too far into story rather than interactivity? Dragon's Lair, which was basically a cartoon with a jump button...

"The cooking/sex/baseball analogy isn’t comparing things on the same level. Saying that videogames need stories isn’t like saying that cooking needs characterization, it’s like saying that cooking needs garlic."

You have a point; the intent of the analogy was to be a bit ridiculous. But I'd rather have a game with just a hint of story-- like Super Mario Bros., or Mega Man, or, glory of glories, MC Kids-- then, as you point out, DragonSlayer, just as I just want a little bit of garlic.

Unless it's pasta night.

"Or that movies need color. Yes, you can get by without that portion of the final product, but it’s better with it than without."

Hahahahahahaha-- movies better with colour, ohmigosh--hahahaha--

Oh, wait.

You're serious.

(crickets)

Or, to be less polemical-- some movies, like some comic books, are better with colour. And some movies, like some comic books, are better in black-and-white.

See? This is kinda sorta steering things back towards comics.

I tend to go with the Will Wright theory that the best video games are the ones that allow the players to create their own stories rather than trying to dictate story to the players; i.e., video games are TOYS, not interactive movies/comics/books/whatever.

Not to say that I haven't seen some video games don't have nice stories - Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic has a better, more Star Wars-ish storyline than the prequels, and Irrational creates good storylines in their games (e.g., the System Shock and Freedom Force games) - but I don't think it's an end that developers should be sweating over too much.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - I thought the Spiderman 2 game, tying into the film, had a better story than the film.
Instead of giving up being Spiderman, Black Cat convinced him to give up being Peter Parker. It had the same effect, and got the character to the same places as in the film, but was much more interesting.
Ultimate Spiderman has an alright story - hilariously it actually feels padded! But the game play itself is so poor and repetitive you don’t care.
(After the joys of jumping off sky scrapers and getting a sense of vertigo in Spiderman 2, in Ultimate Spiderman they decided to keep you close to the ground… because apparently that’s what everybody likes about Spidey).

Too right. I've said the exact same thing on many different occasions.

As for the interactive games are toys and shouldn't have stories argument, what can I say? There are plenty of people out there who would rather get their stories from something more interactive than reading or even watching a movie. Video games are just as valid a storytelling outlet as books, movies, and comics. Welcome to the 21st century.

Now, that doesn't mean that they are all *good* - but that's a different discussion.

The Darkness had great dialogue, however the story wasn't 'all that'. I did like the ending though.

Hmm.. I actually find that most video games I play have as strong or stronger stories than most comics I see published. That's just because I actively look for a strong story when I'm shopping for games. My comic buy stack, generally speaking, is also better IMO than the mean quality of what's published, because I'm looking for stories (and really more for character and concept in comics) that appeal to me. I don't think the medium is any hindrance or help to the storytelling cause, it's just an element of the product, and the consumer has to determine for themselves if that element is integral to their personal enjoyment.

Are they art? Sure, sometimes, sometimes not so much. They are entertainment, and any creative project is unless it's being produced entirely for the artist's own benefit (unless we argue that the artist is entertaining themselves in the creation thereof, which they are). So I don't see how games are intrinsically lesser or greater as art than any other medium, whichever element you're focussing on.

Comic book games? I personally haven't seen any great storytelling from comic games, not yet, but that has far more to do with the product the companies want to produce than with what can or can't be done. Some comic games are certainly more developed in that regard than others.

PS:T was made by Black Isle - the other games you mentioned were all made by Bioware.

The Sam & Max games have great stories as do most other adventure games. Indigo Prophexy has an excellent story until the end - apparently it was intended to be a trilogy that was cut down to one game. The other Black Isle games have great stories. There's also the old Infocom (Zork, etc.) and SCUMM (Monkey Island) games.

PS:T is on the level of a novel and deserves the label 'art' more than any other game.

If you don’t think Halo and MGS (the first one - they’ve gotten progressively more indecipherable) aren’t better than summer blockbusters, then you’ve been seeing some much better summer blockbusters than I have

Nope. I think you're just giving the video game story a lot more leeway. Go over the plot to a MGS game in your head. Write down the highlights and then read them out loud, in sequence. Without the joy of playing the game attahced, you might not be as impressed with the story.

I think you’re just giving the video game story a lot more leeway. Go over the plot to a MGS game in your head. Write down the highlights and then read them out loud, in sequence. Without the joy of playing the game attahced, you might not be as impressed with the story.

Yeah, but do that with popular films and comics, and you might not be as impressed either.

I think we're also ignoring games like GTA and Bully that actually create worlds for you to be in. Interacting with the world replaces the need for such a strong story - it would get in the way of your interaction.
Or Red Dead Revolver (a spaghetti western) or The Warriors game - there was a much plot as there was in the film/genres they were emulating, but it was more about the feel, and that they got perfectly.

(and no, it wasn't intentional that I only cited Rockstar games... that said, they do put out a much higher quality more often than their competition).

Funky Green Jerusalem said:

"Interacting with the world replaces the need for such a strong story - it would get in the way of your interaction."

I agree whole-heartedly.

And recall that some films and novels-- and perhaps comics-- don't really tell stories. They evoke a place, a time, a mood-- a world.

Bob Altman said his films were more like paintings in time than vehicles for stories-- and some works, like Francois Truffaut's Small Change, really only observe behaviour around a theme.

There was a time when _not_ having a story (whichever medium you were working in) was considered a badge of honour. And it's curious-- and upsetting-- that one of the few mediums that's staunchly and gloriously anti-story-- that's absolutely terrific at creating a world-- is going against itself trying to suck up to the other, more respectable mediums. And not even the "good" work of those mediums; as others have pointed out, all they aspire to is popcorn-level theatrics.

It depends though Tom, some of the games manage to do it and tell a good story.
Jak and Daxter had a standard story, but it worked well with the game play, across all three games.
Others like the Final Fantasy series really do have interesting stories/characters.
As with film, novels and comics, I'm quite happy for some games to be story free, while others are packed with story - as with other mediums I love variety, as long as it's well done.

Most of what I would say has already been said. I do think stories in video games are improving, and as indie game developers gain a toe-hold, you will get as a wide a variety of games as you do of movies. There will be the summer blockbuster hits, and there will be experimental, almost unplayable, weird games from unknowns on low budgets. And there will be occasional gems that you treasure. And everyone will argue about the classics and the greats just as they do with books and movies and comics.

Hmmm. See, now, I am old, but when I think of video games with a great story, I think of the 1986 Infocom game "Trinity", which has one of the best stories I have seen in a commercial game. Text adventures, however, aren't really what most people think of by "video games", or even necessarily what I think of when I think of "video games". If, say, the 1983 arcade game "I, Robot" were to have an in-depth plot spelled out in lengthy cut scenes between every level, it would be a much, much worse game. In that respect, I tend more towards the ideal expressed by Jeff Minter's games, even if I'm not actually any good at them.

It's also worth noting that the adventure game genre (to which games like Trinity roughly belong) is dead, dead, a thousand times dead, at least on a commercial level. Sometime in the mid '90s they stopped selling completely, and when people talk about "increased sophistication" they apparently mean frankensteining elements of those old, superior genres of games into a framework where it's awkward, clumsy, and fits poorly. This does not exactly lead me to positive conclusions about the gaming industry, but then again, I'm just an old fart who misses Steve Meretzsky.

Dead? Someone tell Telltale Games because they've produced six episodic Sam & Max games recently and Bone is shaping up to be awesome.

I'm surprised so many people think of action, FPS, etc. games when they think of video games. Many genres need storytelling - Indigo Prophecy, RPGs, etc. This isn't new either - take a look at Fallout (1997), Final Fantasy 6, or the old SCUMM games. Not all games need story but yes, Halo and Half-Life have made consumers demand decent stories in games that used to require none. Bioshock definitely ups the ante but again, that's for a specific genre - other games and genres have been doing this for years.

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