That’s how I reconcile what I love about Cap (strong moral code, and the ability to always “find another way”, however unrealistic) with the fact that being a WWII super soldier that never killed an enemy combatant is a pretty big pill to swallow…

I remember an issue of Marvel Age where some guy submitted a script he’d written and a bona-fide Marvel editor critiqued it…In the story, Cap picks up a gun and shoots something or throws it at someone…The editor made it pretty clear that Cap would never even pick up a gun, never mind fire one…

That was, if memory serves, a Marvel Age column by…Mark Gruenwald.

I remember an issue of Marvel Age where some guy submitted a script he’d written and a bona-fide Marvel editor critiqued it…In the story, Cap picks up a gun and shoots something or throws it at someone…The editor made it pretty clear that Cap would never even pick up a gun, never mind fire one…

I have no idea why I remember that.

Is there nothing Dan Slott can’t do?

Not that we can discuss in public.

I really liked most of Gruenwald’s run on Cap when it first came out. As time goes by, I get older, and my views become more, um, middle-of-the-road, I do find that some of his writing on the book now seems overly idealistic. I guess the guestion is, who was he writing for? An open-minded, somewhat naive teenager, or a more cynical 31-year-old? Keep in mind that comic books two decades ago were a *somewhat* different medium, with the readership consiting of both younger & adult readers.

When I was 11 years old, Cap’s anguish at having to take a life did seem a little bit overblown, but nevertheless still reasonable, as well as a credit to his character & morality. Two decades later, yeah, it doesn’t make much sense, now that I have a better knowledge of just how bloody & brutal World War II actually was, as well as having had the opportunity to read pretty much all the back issues of the book. Gruenwald’s moral dilemma seems a non-issue when you keep in mind all the times Cap used lethal force in WWII, and the time he blew up a bunch of Hydra agents during the Steranko storyline, and the time he used his shield to decapitate Baron Blood.

I do appreciate the idea that Cap dislikes using lethal force, and if he is able, he will defeat a foe without resorting to killing, but if he needs to save innocent lives and sees that the only way to do so is to kill the enemy, then he will do that. I just think Gruenwald went overboard in trying to get that point across.

“During Gruenwald’s run Cap quit being Captain America rather than take orders from the government.”

I know, but he was so _nice_ about it. “Gee, I’m really sorry, but this goes against my principles and I feel very strongly that I should decline.”

The Stan Lee Cap would have told them exactly where they could shove the shield he was giving back to them, and probably would have cold-cocked Gyrich one on his way out the door.

Comics are wish-fulfillment fantasies. As the readership ages the wishes become more complex. Therefore you get things like a soldier who never kills, but wins battles.

That almost deserves a no-prize, but it’s a little too meta.

It seemed a bit off to me.

Personally, I’m with Omar Karindu in believing the problem with Gruenwald’s run wasn’t that Cap suddenly didn’t kill, it was that he suddenly was so bland and nice as a person. Cap in the 60s was a hero and a patriot, but he was also a wise-ass, trash-talking counter-culture hero who believed that it was perfectly alright to protest the government’s actions and still be patriotic. Under Gruenwald, though, he became so straight-laced that Marvel now feels like the only way he can be relevant is as a martyr.

My first encounter with this type of issue was in Operation: Galactic Storm. The heroes divided into two factions at the end: kill the supreme inremmigence or not. Cap was in the NOT side. I found this completely unbelievable. The Kree launched a genocidal war against the humans. The key word there is WAR. Not a fight with some random costumed idiot, a full fledged WAR. A Genocide war.

Hmmm. Does this sound familiar? Like, oh, World War II? “No, I don’t think we should send in a stealth commando squad to kill Hitler.” Bull.

I understanding being a paragon of virtue, etc., etc., etc. There comes a time when that line gets crossed and you don’t feel bad about it.

I disagree, in that, yes, I do think Cap would be okay with a stealth commando squad being sent in to assassinate Hitler.

However, if Hitler was captured alive, I don’t think Cap would be okay with the soldiers killing a prisoner of war, which is what happened in Galactic Storm. The Avengers decided to kill a prisoner of war.

An amusing thing is that, in one of the biggest moment in Marvel intergalactic history, and the key hero is Black Knight!

I don’t think THAT will get many references in the future.

Did the latest Hulk issue remind you of this, or is it just fun to find continuity errors written by the master of continuity?

I don’t really think it’s a matter of a continuity error, as I think Gruenwald was quite cognizant of the previous issues featuring Cap killing people, he just decided to retcon them.

And if I were a less honest guy, I’d say that yeah, the Hulk issue was what inspired me to do it, while in reality, I just happened upon an issue of Gruenwald’s Cap the other day and thought about how silly the “no killing” thing was.

Anyway, freaking Captain America is not gonna flip out after killing some ski suit terrorist. Or whoever he killed in volume four. And that Nazi he punched in his origin didn’t get confused and run into electrical wires.

Hmmm. Does this sound familiar? Like, oh, World War II? “No, I don’t think we should send in a stealth commando squad to kill Hitler.” Bull.

I understanding being a paragon of virtue, etc., etc., etc. There comes a time when that line gets crossed and you don’t feel bad about it.

I think anyone who shows up for a war with rubber bullets is getting an immediate Section 8 and a kick in the ass, Captain America or not.

Maybe Cap took a page from another adventurer’s book and carefully attached little boxing gloves to each of those bullets.

Now, I’ll fully believe that he has that as part of teh character because all that he saw and had to do in World War II when he was younger.

Sure he was looked up to in WWII, but he woke up and suddenly found himself idolized and then had to live up to that.