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The Roy Thomas comparison is right on. I was delighted when Thomas started resurrecting Golden Age characters and exploring their legacies back in Infinity All Star Whatever Comics. But soon his pocket universe was populated by 1000 characters whose detailed and massively retconned histories you had to know in order to understand the 10,000 subplots.

Hero Boy is the grandson of Silver Age Space Boy, who took the mantle of Golden Age Hero Boy when Space Boy II married the neice of Earth 2 Silver Age Spy Girl, who was the reincarnation of Explorer Boy's Golden Age cousin, until he was de-aged and moved to Earth 1 and took the mantle of Continuity Lad.... gaaaaaah!

I think there needs to be a new rule: You may not have more characters in your comic than can reasonably fit as floating heads on your cover.

I can only speak for myself, but my disdain for post-2003 Johns comes from (A) the violence thing, which is so stupid and one-note it's not even suitable for adults, and (B) his unerring talent for making all my favorite characters suck.

Roy Thomas got a fair amount of flak in his day, but without the internet, people had to sit down and write actual letters, or else save it till they ran into one an other at a convention. He got into it a few times with people in the Comics Journal lettercolumn, which was the closest thing to an industry message board in the olden days. But really the designated pinata for fans of 70's superhero comics was Gerry Conway.

I'm a pretty big Johns fan, but I can see why others wouldn't be.

Anyway, this is only Justice Society of America vol. 3 because:

a) Both the 1940s book and the 1970s revival were called "All-Star Comics"

b) The 1999-2006 book was called "JSA"

This leaves the 1991 miniseries, the 1992-1993 "ongoing" which lasted 10 issues, and the current series as the only series ever to be called "Justice Society of America".

Here's my thing.

I was all about GJ for a long time. On JSA, Flash, and Hawkman, he had built up a lot of credit in the bank with me. Then he did Avengers which was not great. It has to be said though that whether you liked the run or agreed it ended on a down note, anybody following KB's run on the title would suffer if they didn't pull a "the Hyperclan are Martians" out of his hat (which GJ sort of tried...). And I love me some Avengers so this disappointment, well...extra-disappointed.

Then it started...Identity Crisis and long inexorable march towards the present day, where an entire multiverse bounces around between the magnetic poles of Sue Dibny: Ultimate Evil and Ted Kord: The Blue Christ. Somewhere in there he did Green Lantern, trying to scab over the wounds of the past by explaining Parallax away with the GL's own "Speed Force," a convenience-explaining-away procedure based on yellow = fear. It was a nice try but for the next 14 issues they all degenerated from promising setups into Hal punching things.

Then came Infinite Crisis where every single page had to basically have every single character ever and none of the promise of restoring relevance to the Big Three that seemed apparent in the advance press was fulfilled. Then came 52 and One Year Later and 5000 tie-ins and, more recently, the Sinestro Corps War.

Not all of this is Geoff's fault. I've talked with the man before and he has a genuine enthusiasm and respect for the things he works with. The problem if anything is that this respect seems to lack discretion, which means that even his Flash started to fall apart from too many outside influences. BAD influences.

I respect that he wants to play with as many toys as possible. But I had a friend as a kid who wanted to play with every single toy the two of us had at basically one time, so you end up with Alien action figures attacking pirate Legos with the Riddler's help. And that, frankly, just stops being fun really quickly and starts being work.

I haven't read a GJ comic in about 2 years.

Johns just can’t hide the fact that deep down, he’s Roy Thomas for the new millenium

And lo, in one line, you explain my dislike of Johns' work.

The thing is-- mediocre writing pisses me off so much more than blatantly shitty writing.

The thing is– mediocre writing pisses me off so much more than blatantly shitty writing.

Totally. Shitty writing can be laughed at, at least. Mediocre writing is just TORTURE.

Ok not to defend bad writing... but I think GJ used to be a better writer... when he wasn't doing crossovers... I really enjoyed the first few years of JSA. It had just the right kind of feel for a team book... It began falling apart with Dark Reign I think... Its one thing to reveal a minor semi forgotten character as a villain... But do we need to do that to the nicest guy in the team... By now, that seems like a cliche.

I think he was best when he was given one toy and allowed to play with it in any way he wanted. Hourman was a fun series that was sadly short lived. I even loved Hawkman, until I realized it was Hawkgirl who I really cared about. By the time she took over the title, it was too late.

Hmmmmm... turns out GF didn't write Hourman...

Ok... I got nothing.

Can't defend him now... though I still liked JSA... but that could have been Robinson's influence!

When Geoff Johns' JSA was allowed to be more or less self-contained, it was a fun old-school kind of a book, comparable to the old Thomas/Buscema Avengers. Which is something I'm okay with, though mileage varies. Someone a while back said that Johns WANTS to write fun comics but trips over the idea that he thinks he needs to be more serious, or something. That seems to sum it up for me. It has always befuddled me that his fist swing at the JSA was quite a bit more FUN than his Teen Titans, which was absolutely morose every time I looked at it.

I looked at the new one and was sad that he still seems to be stuck proving how SERIOUS superheroes are these days. This whole "It's not your father's DC!" bullshit is probably the single biggest problem I have with the company's mainstream superhero line right now. And of course self-contained is out of the question for DC these days. The new Justice Society book, in addition to being way too serious, is suffering from the whole crossover mania/needless stunting/re-start for no reason thing that plagues superhero comics lately... and knowing that we have to wait till Countdown and Final Crisis are done for this trend to even have a chance to be over is really depressing.

Geoff Johns is an utterly mediocre writer.
But he used to be horrendous.
Stars & STRIPE #0 remains one of the worst things I've read since Supreme #1.

I agree your assessment, Mr. Hatcher!

Cheers

I still really like Johns as a writer. I think he did his best work co-writing JSA with David Goyer, but I think the internet gives the man too unfair a shake at a times (not to say he doesn't have his duds -- I've hated his and Dick Donner's Action Comics run). The guy's a fanboy, like Roy Thomas was, like we all all. He's doing what we all would do as writers. What grates folks is that they want to do OTHER drastic changes to characters, as all fan-writers aspire to do. It's Johns' enthusiasm that I think gets to people. Writers like Busiek or Waid seem quieter, and guys like Morrisson or Greg Rucka seem more cerebral. Geoff seems like one of us, and thus ripe for the picking.

And JSA/Justice Society has always rocked (though, as I said, it was best in the days when Goyer had a hand in it -- I blame the bigger role Sand played in the story)...

I utterly do not get the general antipathy towards Geoff Johns. He is, at the absolute worst, a perfectly serviceable superhero writer. Who are these people holding up as DC's best writers if Geoff Johns, of all people, is who they're holding up as the worst? I cringe at the thought.

Yeah, good question... instead of being negative... let's ask... who is the best writer on a Mainstream DC Book?

I think that Johns run on JSA between the Injustice Society story and Black Reign is one of the best runs on a superhero series ever.

Since then he's had his ups and downs.

He also has an excellent, excellent Flash run under his belt though.

Yeah, good question… instead of being negative… let’s ask… who is the best writer on a Mainstream DC Book?

Dwayne McDuffie's the obvious choice, and he's leagues better than Johns.

Geoff seems like one of us, and thus ripe for the picking.

No. We're not all fanboys.

I know I've posted this before on this site, but it bears repeating. While Geoff Johns is very comparable to Roy Thomas, I think in terms of pure technical fundamentals Thomas was on the whole a much better writer. He could get more action into an issue, written more clearly and paced appropriately, and often within the framework of more imaginative plots. There is a security and confidence in even the most fannish and in-bred of Thomas's work that Johns has always lacked, and seems unable to develop while working within the comfort zone of superheroes. I believe that if Johns was forced to write another genre extensively for awhile, say horror or romance or even fantasy, he would emerge as a much better writer for it.

Lynnxara - Thank you.

I'm always shocked when people hold up Flash and the first run of JSA as what he's done right. No, he hadn't picked up his disgusting over-the-top violence habit yet, but they are just ridiculously stupid, aimless comics.

I'll agree with the Thomas > Johns premise. Not necessarily thinking there's much Johns could do to improve, but you do have a point.

I think Roy Thomas wrote the book on how to do superteams with his run on Avengers.

My observation of Johns' writing is twofold:

1) Characterization is scant. I enjoyed his Flash run, but even the more flamboyant villains seemed very indistinct. I thought the whole run of JSA was almost entirely devoid of character. Johns is a very plot-heavy writer.

2) His books are very even-tempered, with few emotional highs or lows. His whole Flash run exhibits this characteristic: It feels like one long adventure movie with few breaks between scenes and no climactic moments. (That's not quite true, since the Zoom story has an emotional climax, but it's presented so matter-of-factly that it just barely registers.) Infinite Crisis has the same problem.

Contrast with some of DC's "go-to" writers of the last 30 years: Marv Wolfman's forte was character, as demonstrated in New Teen Titans. Mark Waid had emotional climaxes down pat: "The Return of Barry Allen" had one of the best.

And Crisis on Infinite Earths, for all its flaws (which seem more glaring every year) had a sense of drama and excitement that's entirely missing from Johns' work.

The current JSA series has some redeeming qualities (I enjoyed the Liberty Belle issue - mainly due to Damage's involvement - and I'm interested in the ongoing Starman storyline), but it's not very distinguished. Like most of Johns' comics, I find it very run-of-the-mill.

His run on 'Action Comics' with Donner has been brilliant, and lightyears ahead of anything else in the core Super-books recently. Even his Bizarro World arc is actually shaping up to be better than Morrison's, at least on a surface 'bang for your buck' level.

Still, I liked JSA... because it was light fun filled with action... of course it also might have been the light continuity porn that got me as well... But I did like them because they were heavier on plot than character.

Superhero comics are basically adventure stories so there is nothing wrong with a plot being more important to character.

But I can see not liking JSA if character is your thing...

Me, I'm not reading much in comics now... Just anything by Morrison.

Sometimes writers can be too obsessed with character. Though I love Bendis when he's writing crime comics, I find his superhero books tedious. Lots of cute dialog and action tacked in as an afterthought. He lost me on New Avengers when the bad guy turned out to be Xorn. Now when friends tell me I should really be reading Bendis's Avengers, I just scream "XORN!" at them until they leave me alone.

But I agree with the whole Roy Thomas Avengers thing... that is how to write a team book!

Interest observation on Crisis on Infinite Earths... it was brilliant when it came out... but it became the template for bad crossovers ever since. And each new crossover reveals new flaws in the Original Crisis. For example, that one whole chapter, is basically retcon plot exposition.

GJ's JSA aimed to have the epic-ness that Morrison's JLA did, while also trying to build on and within continuity, recently-established characterization, etc. While Morrison went for iconic and mythic and memorable, he also adopted the view that JLA shouldn't have to deal with other books' continuities (he didn't want to use Superman-Blue-- and who can blame him?). JLA was a nitpicker's delight: the fire vulnerability doesn't work like that, Kyle talks about the magnificent seven riding again when in post-DC continuity there's nothing about these seven characters etc etc.

GJ colored inside the lines: when Jack Knight's own book told a story that would get him out of superheroing, that's what happened. GJ would try to change stuff-- bring back Hawkman, get Hector Hall and Dr. Fate both back into action, etc-- but in ways that actually started from the status quo ante. And in so doing he really did help extricate the DCU from some weird muddles and malaises. And then he went on to write one of the most *universe* of big DCU books between COIE and InfC-- a *ton* of characters had actual plotlines and developments over the course of that series, old threads from canceled series would get picked up and run with, etc. It may be easy to forget now, but through the mid-90s it was rare enough to be exciting when any DCU book even remembered that B-list characters created before Zero Hour or so existed. (There was a time when neither Black Canary nor Power Girl appeared in *any* comic books regularly-- remember?)

GJ did more than anyone else excpet *maybe* Waid to say, "hey, the post-Crisis DCU has all these wonderful toys we've left sitting here in the closet. Let's take them out and tell some super-hero stories with them." Even if that's turned into legacy-itis, back during the era of Fate the idea that the DCU would suffer from *too much* reverence for its legacies would have seemed like a dreamworld.

And compared with Roy Thomas, GJ always seemed to have some of that Morrison urge for new and exciting and big stories. GJ really is one of the architects (apologies to Dr 13) of today's DCU, for good and for ill-- but Thomas couldn't have done that. If you'd given him the keys to the Earth-1 car, Thomas wouldn't have had any idea where to drive it...

The major difference between Roy Thomas and Geoff Johns is that Roy drew on his wide knowledge of history, literature and pop culture as well as his knowledge of comics continuity for his stories where Johns seems to bring nothing but continuity to the table.

i don't know, I really don't. Maybe I read more of what I wanted to read into the issues than what was actually there, but I think the character work in JSA is great. I think the way he uses villains are very good. I think the way he used Icicle in the Ultra Humanite arc or Black Adam throughout was very good. I thought how he used Billy Batson was very good. For two or three years out of my life I generally looked forward to JSA coming out more than any comic on the shelf.

There were a lot of done in one stories there a lot of character arcs that thought in the long term, and Princes of Darkness is one of my favorite stories ever, something with a ton of build to it.

I realize I might get a few disparaging comments for saying all that, but I mean it.

The comics were just about everything I wanted to see. And I'd put it up against something like Ultimates as a way you could do mature comics with mature characterizations and not going to extremes of language and gore and meanness. Of course, SINCE then, he's tossed a lot of this stuff in senselessly. But I really felt that way at the time.

For whatever it's worth, I'm in the "Geoff Johns isn't so bad, and sometimes he's actually quite good" camp. (Infinite Crisis excepted, of course.) His first run on JSA was mostly wonderful — there were some nice done-in-one beats that actually have plenty of characterization and provide some gentle emotional climaxes, like a Father's Day issue that focused on the Hourmans (father and son) and on Jakeem Thunder. (He's a great character, btw, whom Morrison created and everyone hated at first — but it's Johns who developed him and turned him into the non-trash-talking, 3D character we can enjoy today.)

And I also really liked his Flash run. His "Rogue wars" farewell arc disappointed, but the initial Zoom arc was the best — a story that the series built to quite nicely. And I wouldn't say all of his villains were indistinct: He fleshed out Captain Cold, Mirror Master and Zoom very well. I'm not reading his Green Lantern ongoing, but the Sinestro Corps one-shot rocked, and the very premise of the Sinestro Corps is simple but brilliant.

I just would like to say that I am currently enjoying Booster Gold.

Thanks for remind me why I loved JSA: Jakheem Thunder, Billy Batson, Black Adam, and Icicle, and I loved the dynamics between the young guys and the old guys.

I just want a fun team book with characters I can like. Unfortunately, I don't see any on the shelves at my comic book shop.

By and large I quite like Johns' writing. JSA has been one of my favorite DC books since I started reading DC (a habit that was actually sparked by reading a Geoff Johns comic: JSA Classified #1). In spite of the occasionally graphic violence (which hasn't really been an issue since the first arc of the new volume) it's a great team book filled with interesting characters that successfully blends action with character moments. I've also quite liked the new Booster Gold book, what I've read of his Teen Titans run, his parts of 52, and - and I'm almost afraid I'll be banned from this blog for saying so - Infinite Crisis.

At the same time, I generally can't stand his Green Lantern stuff. The Sinestro Corps has been great, hands down the best "big event" that I've read in a long time, but the rest of the book has been pretty bad. There are two basic problems that have essentially made this title so bad. First, Johns is constantly shoveling it down the readers' throats that Hal is the best Green Lantern ever and has never done anything bad (the 90s weren't his fault, honest!). Second, he completely fails to realize that Hal is incredibly boring once he takes off the costume. He has a very shallow one-note personality that makes for incredibly bland reading when he's not using his powers to fight something. It's not a recent thing, either, Hal's had this problem for decades. But Johns fails to realize this and apparently believes that everybody finds Hal as fascinating as he does. It makes for a really irritating book that apparently inspires very long rants from me on other people's blogs. I'll stop now.

I've really enjoyed his Flash, and selections of his JSA work. He's not a writer who reads well in terms of "the whole run," because he doesn't think in those terms; but he's very good at taking the toys out of the box and making them work again.

I tend to think that most of the arguments against Johns read asd critiques of the "endless series" mentality that he brings, and thus as part of a general antpathy towards serial fiction without an endpoint.

I can see exactly why those arguments are made: books, movies, etc. have endings, and can achieve a kin d of thematic and narrative closure comics can't. What bothers me is that no one ever seem to bother trying to think about how open-ended series or stories might have different strengths, and lend themselves to or at least enable different modes of storytelling.

Of course, that's an argument that swims upstream where Western literature is concerned...

What bothers me is that no one ever seem to bother trying to think about how open-ended series or stories might have different strengths, and lend themselves to or at least enable different modes of storytelling.

Like...?

I just want a fun team book with characters I can like. Unfortunately, I don’t see any on the shelves at my comic book shop.

I don't know you well enough to tell you if you can like these characters or not, but if you're looking for a fun team book, you might consider The Order, The Metal Men, or even Marvel's Starlord miniseries. Those should all be on the shelves at your comic shop.

That's right-- Johns is writing Booster Gold! C'mon-- how can that not have restored a lot of the damage done to his name by InfC?

Thanks, apacoda!

I have absolutely zero interest in the whole "Annihilation" event, but the Starlord mini has been really fun so far. The characters are all distinct, and the artist (Timothy Green II) is really exceptional.

Just to add to Apodaca's suggestions,I hear Marvel Adventures: Avengers and X-Men: First Class are great, as far as team books with likable characters go. If Marvel's not your thing, Justice League Unlimited is always good fun for a couple of bucks (at least until it gets cancelled), and McDuffie's JLA looks promising.

I'm really amazed at how little his Action Comics run has come up in this discussion- do people actively dislike it, or is that people think of it as Donner's run?

More with the McDuffie love! Maybe, I should check him out.

As far as Annihilation... I refuse to participate in any epic space story that doesnt involve Reed Richards...

I mean... He couldn't take time off from hunting the Young Avengers to at least observe the Annihilation Wave and somehow respond to such a cosmic at potentially threating event?

Gah, I hate Civil War! I see it as Marvels response to Identity Crisis... "Well, we can make our characters jerks, too!"

McDuffie on JLA? Is he replacing Metzer?

Yes, he has replaced Meltzer, starting with the Wedding Special, which is already out, if you're interested. His first issue of the on-going series (#13) should be out soon, and as far as I know, follows on directly from the story set up in the Wedding Special.

Personally, I haven't read enough of McDuffie's previous work to consider myself a fan, but the Wedding Special was good enough (without being spectacular) to convince me to give his run a shot.

I'd like to echo what Jacob T. Levy said about Geoff Johns' work on JSA and The Flash. He has an incredible talent for knitting the threads of continuity that have become frayed while at the same time introducing new legacies such as Mister Terrific. His first JSA series was full of crazy adventures that gradually got darker thanks mostly to the Dr Fate and Obsidian storylines, both incredibly angst-ridden.

But his Hawkman and Green Lantern series are somewhat similar. Take a character who has become muddied and basically boring and turn him into an ass-kicker (both characters already were, but had become associated with other more confused characteristics, such as Hawkman's origins).

Geoff John's Hawkman was an incredibly unique take on the character that allowed him to embrace all of his previous incarnations and more. Even better, the follow-up issues by Palmiotti didn't detract from Johns' run.

On GL Johns, has taken Hal Jordan through the wringer where he has to earn the respect of everyone... and he pretty much ignores it. In the end, Hal Jordan simply is the best Green Lantern. I totally agree that Hal Jordan sans ring is like hanging out with a friend of my dad's, but ring on and he's great.

His Teen Titans was like re-reading the Marv Wolfman/George Perez books, revamped. He nailed the characters and even added new ones. Like his run on the Flash, it got very overly angsty and violent toward the end, but all in all, the McKone issues are amazing.

I really don't get what people don't like about Geoff Johns' work since all in all, he has been the most enjoyable and consistent super hero writer in the past decade. I think that DC has embraced him so much because his run on JSA with Goyer was full of so much Universe building, making a modern DCU that DC Editorial had been promising for so long. Even Morrison's JLA failed to do that.

He's also more or less bullet proof in his technique of taking a character who is broken and fixing him... which is why he should probably take a whack at Aquaman.

Well, what I heard of the Wedding Special scared me away. While I love me some classic cheesy "Super Friends" I don't dig the JLA hanging out and trading cutesy dialog like the cast of "Friends."

Aw, don't be scared!

It's a very good issue and uses (shock) humor very well,. I was totally thinking it would be a throw away Bachelor Party-ish special, but it turned out to be the beginning of the next big storyline.

Besides, if you believed everything you 'heard' about a comic, you'd only read what everyone else likes... and who wants that?

Well, from what I heard it had elements I just found to be trite an unoriginal. Am I correct in my understanding that the couple argues heatedly, and then suddenly stops to have sex?

Oh, wait. That's the Wedding Planner, not the Special.

But my question is: Was it a good fun read in and of itself? Was the story good in itself, with its won dramatic beats that made the issue valuable on its own apart from being a tease for the upcoming storyline.

I'm sick of comics that insist upon my purchase because they begin a new storyline, only to be greeted with pointless dialog that only inches the story forward at a snails pace.

In short, I'm sick of "writing for the trades". Give me a page turner that makes me enjoy the issue as is, and then give me a cliffhanger to further encourage me to come back for the next issue... But don't give me a book of cutesy dialog and in jokes, and then expect me to care when you throw in a twist to your non-story at the end of the issue.

Sorry for the venom, there. But that whole, "It's the beginning of a new story line" thing doesn't work on me now. If I pay for a book, I want the story now. If its the first chapter, I want to be amazed by how cool it starts off.

If the Wedding Special Starts of the story in a way that will shock and amaze me, keeping me guessing as to what will happen next, then I'm there.

As for "Besides, if you believed everything you ‘heard’ about a comic, you’d only read what everyone else likes… and who wants that?"

You know if I took your word for it, I would be reading what YOU like.

But anyway, I trust reviews and word of mouth for a reason. I could waste a lot of time reading or watching things I don't enjoy, if I didn't do my research first. For example, I know what to expect, If a review tells me that a comic "takes a classic approach to Captain America, while approaching his place in modern society with a critical eye." I would probably pick that book up. I wouldn't merely pick up a book because someone said, "It's cool. You'll like it."

Now having said that, if someone would please publish a book about a Monkey in love with a Robot written in alternating arcs by Morrison and Busiek with art by Alan Davis and/or George Perez, I really wouldn't care if it was decompressed filler full of pointless dialog designed to pad the trade paperback.

I would buy it regardless.

Especially if it made several references to obscure plot lines only I remember from Batman and the Outsiders.

(not sarcasm at all, I really would buy it! I may be the only one.)

Okay, I'm done.

I feel better now.

Wow... What a rant!

That'll teach me to watch "Network" before posting!

Geoff Johns writes some entertaining comics with the occasional "wow, that was pretty creative/inspiring" moment. But it can also be kind of embarrasing to read his stuff because he has his slovenly fanboyish moments laced with juvenile violence.
For the most part I've followed him on JSA since the beginning (1999, right?).
I think sometimes he tries too hard. Whereas Morrison showed readers how cool the "Superfriends" can be Johns more often than not always has to tell readers how cool we're supposed to think whatever characters he's writing are.
I think his screenwriting credentials also interfere with his comics work because he is really always trying for the memorable one-liner akin to "Make My Day" or "I'll Be Back."
I actually thought Infinite Crisis as a whole was a worthy successor to Crisis on Infinite Earths. But I remember one panel in particular where Johns has Black Adam punch his fist through Psycho Pirate's head and say "No more funny faces." It's one of those lines that I read and think "there's a 12-year-old out there going 'cooooooool' and I'm wondering if maybe I'm too old for this stuff'."
But I do think the guy deserves a ton of credit for his JSA work. James Robinson may have paved the way, but Johns, first with David Goyer as co-writer, then on his own, has really revived the concept.
I still get a kick out of reading the adventures of characters who have been around since the 1940s and I like the often novel twists that Johns uses in establishing legacy characters.