This is interesting... does anyone know what Kirby's original vision of the character was? Or is this one of those situations where the whole thing is pretty must lost to the aether for all time?

>>> As lame as it was (and it was), there were actually some moments that I still remember enjoying from Secret Wars II.

I never thought Secret Wars II was bad (or poorly written) for the most part. In a way, it WAS an interesting exploration of just how an infinite being with no real sense of self or understanding of how the universe works would slowly begin to develop and grow. And the idea that his basic disconnect from life and the lack of consequence from his actions would prevent him from really coming to grips with things was certainly well-done. In a way, he was like a cosmic child who couldn't grow up, because rather than adapt to the world around him, he simply made the world around him adapt to HIM.

That being said, the sheer number of cross-over issues was ridiculous, and half of them were only cross-overs in the sense that the Beyonder would show up for like 30 seconds or would just be MENTIONED, and then the rest of the completely unconnected story would continue without him. THAT sort of killed a lot of the appeal of the series, especially compared to the mostly-self-contained original.

>>> There’s a need for strong editing in comics, and it’s rarely there. Neither Marvel nor DC have a real E-in-C with the kind of skills necessary for the job, and you see the results. Shooter didn’t care if creators liked him, but he got great results. The after-the-fact sniping is pretty damn juvenile.

For years, I've seen it as being a situation where writers and editors who actually cared about the company have slowly but surely been completely displaced by editors who treat the job as little more than a vanity position.

>>> Shooter is spoken of so badly in some circles that one could perhaps forget how much better a job he did than his successors. John Byrne, particularly, used to be a much better creator when Shooter was there to control his excesses. Of course, Byrne hated the beejezus out of him for it, and indeed made a point of saying so in his work at the time.

It's not entirely surprising that a prima donna artiste (in the "creative" sense, not just the penciller/inker sense), when basically forced to behave themselves and curb their whimsical impulses, will come to hate the person restraining them. And yet, time and time again, we've seen far too many examples of the utter garbage that can come out of artistes (both actual artists and writers) when they're allowed free rein without constraint. Early Image is the crystal clear example of that.

Editorial mandate has certainly resulted in some stories that probably never should have existed. On the other hand, so has LACK of editorial mandate. If anything, a creative medium like monthly comics NEEDS editors who care more about the product than their own egos or personal interests, and who are willing to put their foot down and hold back out-of-control writers and artists, but who are also willing to allow creative writers and artists a bit of freedom to explore their ideas. The real problem might be that, in order for such a synergistic relationship to truly work, the writers and artists have to be willing to accept that authority and behave within the limits of the system. Sadly, too many artists and writers seem to come across more like temperamental children who are more than willing to throw a massive tantrum when their desires are thwarted, even if those desires are horrible ideas.

fort assigners crisply conforms ...

agitated opportunism,modeled filenames Frenchize

The Charlton heroes lived on Earth-Four, which was named that just in time to be destroyed in the Crisis.

Wait...so does this still exist somewhere...?

Big West (with Tatsunoko and other production companies) put together 3 anime series in 1981-1982 with similar themes (though obviously different settings). The series even replaced each other in the same time slot, with their titles are beginning (when translated) "Super Dimension".

The first and third of these series were "Super Dimension Fortress MACROSS" & "Super Dimension Cavalry SOUTHERN CROSS". Both these series would end up as part of the US series "Robotech", though with heavy editing to turn a 23rd century space colony in SDC:SC into 2030 Earth. In fact, they only became "Robotech" when Harmony Gold couldn't get a buyer for the 36-episode Macross, because of it being too short for syndication (and networks weren't buying translated anime for Saturday morning at the time). The Robotech name came from the Revell line of Models, which included several different series' models, and the creation of the Robotech TV series actually clobbered an alternate, model-tie-in universe series that was being done by DC at the time (small world, hmm).

The SECOND series, though, is the one relevant to Crisis. "Super Dimension Century Orguss" dates from the time period that Crisis' base plot ideas were put together, and this article I remember reading (again, it was either in the weekly tabloid comics paper I was buying back in 85, Amazing Heroes, or in one of the late 80s anime magazines, or one concurrent with te original VHS release attempt for Orguss) said that some of the plot devices of Orguss, that persons at DC working on Crisis had aquired in viewed by some means (as Orguss models were in the pre-Harmony Gold "Robotech" model line, perhaps videos acquired in line with it?), had an influence on Crisis. Things such as a race against time to fix the merger, dimensional fluxes where the worlds overlapped, and of course (anime being the home of sacrificing ones self to save the world a million times over), a real mind-bender of an ending.

“Orguss, itself, is just now reaching US shores on SUBTITLED DVD, having had a mediocre dub attempt in the 1990s (that ended at the series half-way point), as a result of the subtitled version airing summer/fall 2007 on ImaginAsian TV in a number of markets in the US.

If Orguss did have an influence on Crisis, it would put a new perspective on Manga/Anime influences on American comics & animation.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. It may just be hindsight speaking, but I think that connecting the Crisis (the last story of the "old" universe) with the new universe caused more problems than it solved, such as the backstories of Power Girl and the Legion of Super-Heroes.

I'm not sure that more fans would have been alienated by the reboots if there had been no explanation for them than were alienated by the numerous deaths in Crisis (Supergirl, for instance) and the poor handling of franchises like the Legion.

I agree with many other posters here, though. I would definitely love to hear DC's side of it. I don't quite believe Shooter's recollection of things, but I would love to know what made him think what he did.

(and don’t forget that the Monitor was making appearances in other comics for months before Crisis started so readers would be familiar with the character).

From what I understand, when The Monitor started appearing in Teen Titans he wasn't planned to be anything to do with Crisis.

I think both the "legend" and Shooter's comments contain are neither true or false, but contain both in their statements.

Using the info available to us, I think the following scenario is most likely:

Dc has too much documentation in print that shows that the concept and planning of Crisis began at the end of '81/start of '82. I don't believe there is any way that Shooter hadn't heard the scuttlebutt about the series DC was planning. The concept that DC were planning a maxi-series, starring every character they had, which would lead to changes in DC's continuity and status quo would have been out there....Officailly since mid '82 at the latest. Plus someone would have certainly mentioned that DC had hired Peter Sanderson to research the project. Hiring some guy to read every DC comic is fairly unusual. Jim Shooter certainly didn't rush anything out to steal DC's thunder as we would have seen Secret Wars a lot sooner. Don't forget Crisis was originally projected to come out sometime in 1983. The date of release was only put back, originally, because the research was taking so long. DC's 50th anniversary celebrations were only a nice little chance to gain the extra time the research needed.

My feeling is that, when the Mattel deal came up, Shooter saw it as an opportunity to tell the same type of story DC was going to produce and he leapt at the chance to do so. Something I don't think he would ever admit doing. Why would he? I think the fact that it came out before Crisis just happened to be fortuitous timing for Shooter.

So my personal feeling on the matter is, looking at the evidence, that I think the "legend" as its worded above is indeed False, but Shooter's version of events isn't entirely accurate in order to save face. I don't think he rushed Secret Wars out to "beat DC to the punch", but I don't think he was above appropriating the idea when the opportunity arose.

Yeah, it was just a typo there, putting “true” when I meant to put “false.”

All I am addressing here is “Marvel did not come up with Secret Wars as a response to Crisis,” nothing more.

That’s why I did not look to a response from DC, joe. Since I did not mean to imply that DC must have come up with Crisis as a response to Secret Wars because Marvel didn’t come up with Secret Wars as a response to Crisis.

As many others, including yourself, have noted - that does not have to be (nor does it appear to be) the case.

And yet the final paragraph, Shooter states that they began planning Secret Wars "well more than a year before DC began Crisis", which would be about mid 82.

And yet DC, according to DC's documentation (Shown in Absolute Crisis), the idea for Crisis was signed off on at the end of '81 and first mentioned publically in the comic books mid '82.

The Mattel stuff is all true, yet I can't help feeling that the "comics folks from all companies hung out together, played volleyball together, played poker, etc." mentioned by Shooter easily works both ways.

Especially as he seems to go out of his way so much in the passage you quoted to try and make it look like DC was copying Marvel, even stating explicitly that DC had nothing in the works, when existing, actually published, information shows otherwise.

As a fan who, like a poster above, lived far away from organized fandom, and knew only of the behind-the-scenes events only when they were mentioned on Editorial columns or letter columns, it certainly *did* look like Crisis was aping some elements from Secret Wars. Like having the Anti-Monitor grow powerful enough to destroy the universe himself (a level of power not seen in comics before SW’s Beyonder) to the very idea of using massive amounts of heroes and villains, even when there was no practical reason to (I remember distinctly that Warlord, a DC character who thus far, was not part of the continuity, showed up among the heroes summoned in Crisis #4- and I remember wondering: “Why? He’s not even a superhero!” It just felt like DC was trying to out-do the Hero gathering of Secret Wars at that point. Oh, and I don’t think Warlord appeared again in the story.)

Wolfman started doing the script in 1984, after all the research had been done, but a lot of the plot elements you mention were already part of the concept that was presented to DC years earlier. The only major change that was made, while the scripts were being written was to the ending. Originally the last two issues were going to explore the new DC Universe...And were actuually reformatted into what would become the 2 issue History of the DC Universe".
In fact, there's a memo reproduced in Absolute Crisis, dated January 3, 1983, that mentions that the mini would show just who is and isn't part of the DCU, hence the number of characters that appeared, such as Warlord.

Oh, and how is this for a rumor: I heard once that the real reason The Monitor’s face wasn’t shown until an issue of GI Combat (shortly before Crisis began) was not just for the mystery factor, but because he had NOT been designed yet! Certainly, some of his early appearances had his silhouette looking slimmer than he did on Crisis. This rumor shouldn’t be that hard to find out, just ask Perez or Wolfman or anybody else involved in Crisis’ development.

The first few appearances, in 1982, didn't have a character design. The character design was presented to DC's editors and writers, with the memo I just mentioned.

Oh, and how is this for a rumor: I heard once that the real reason The Monitor's face wasn't shown until an issue of GI Combat (shortly before Crisis began) was not just for the mystery factor, but because he had NOT been designed yet! Certainly, some of his early appearances had his silhouette looking slimmer than he did on Crisis. This rumor shouldn't be that hard to find out, just ask Perez or Wolfman or anybody else involved in Crisis' development.

Of course, Byrne hated the beejezus out of him for it, and indeed made a point of saying so in his work at the time, mainly by parodying Shooter in a most unflattering light both as Legends' Sunspot and in lackluster Star Brand stories.