Comic Book Resources

Did she have the refrigerator door open yet? If so, is that close enough to induct her into the "Women in Refrigerators" club?

The newest Solicit/Cover for Green Arrow did to me.

It sure looks like Connor bites it and while I like Connor a lot as a character and the Dixon penned mini of his is probably one of my favorite things that came out all year, and in 2007 I'd much rather read Connor stories than Ollie stories and he's still useful in the universe especially if they put him on Titans instead of Roy or something ...

I just can't bring myself to care.

That's the thing about comics.

If you miss a character, so does some creator.

Just wait a while. They'll be back.

I'm much more annoyed by the fact that Judd gets to write Black Canary on a monthly basis now becuse he's not very good at it than anything else (and he WAS sort of good at writing Connor. And he's NOT good at writing Ollie, so that's frustrating too).

All tho complaining in the world doesn't do any good. It doesn't seem to matter if we complain to each other, which is what we do here in hopes that it will be heard by the right people, or if we complain directly ot the source. "They" are in charge, and "they" will do whatever "they" damn well please. this applies pretty mich evenly accross the board, not just in comics. Right & wrong, public outcry, general absurdity... none of it seems to matter to "them".

No, I'm not cynical. Why do you ask?

That's why we shouldn't complain. Just don't buy the book. It's been said before, but that's the only way to protest. Anything else is just publicity.

That’s why we shouldn’t complain. Just don’t buy the book. It’s been said before, but that’s the only way to protest. Anything else is just publicity.

This can't possibly be emphasized enough. In order to complain about the story, generally it presupposes you've read the story and thus -- probably -- BOUGHT the story. If so, DC still gets to keep the money.

IGNORE lame books. Best kind of bystander effect. Try it and see how freeing it is.

I thought it was a good book. Of course, I'm a sucker for Starlin.

Can it still be Bystander Effect is the comic isn't bad? When I read the Illuminati issue with the Beyonder, I knew when I finished that there were going to be people up in arms about it. And sure enough, a few days later, the righteous indignation threads showed up, decrying the fact that Marvel has "ruined" the character.

Now, the book itself wasn't bad at all. But you could still see the anger coming a mile away. Is that still the Bystander Effect, or is there some corollary for books that we don't hate in the slightest, but we know others will?

Of course it can, yo go.

Although that Illuminati book was bad, just not for what it did to the Beyonder.

Oh it can absolutely be the bystander effect even though it's a good book, because the effect is cumulative.

The newest Solicit/Cover for Green Arrow did to me.

It sure looks like Connor bites it and while I like Connor a lot as a character and the Dixon penned mini of his is probably one of my favorite things that came out all year, and in 2007 I’d much rather read Connor stories than Ollie stories and he’s still useful in the universe especially if they put him on Titans instead of Roy or something …

I just can’t bring myself to care.

I'm the opposite. I've been jaded by all the carnage and unnecessary death for years now, and grew quite cynical. But seeing that Connoe "Mary Sue" Hawke might die? That was just awesome, it actually made me care in a good way. This is one death I can make an exceoption for and get totally behind. Bravo Winick.

The problem I had with it is not so much that she dies, but that she dies without a fight- indeed, in a way that reminds one of Sue Dibny or Katma Tui. If you're writing the death of the New Gods, as temporary as it will inevitably be, you should at least give the characters a fitting end, and getting shot while putting away groceries does Barda no justice. She should have a warrior's death.

Reading this, I picture how Kirby would have killed Big Barda- with a heroic sacrifice to end the terror of (insert Apokalips-generated threat here) and save the innocent. Maybe I'm just old-school, but lying on the kitchen floor? I don't see the upside.

As for bystander effect, everybody comes back eventually. Even Bucky. The only deaths that might stick are the second- or third-string heroes who can't carry their own title. Connor Hawke, Hawkwoman, maybe Blue Beetle, they might stay dead.

I so couldn't care anymore about what DC does to mess up their comics next that I can't even summon up a "JLI death!" jibe.

Jeez. DC Comics suck pretty bad these days.

Speaking of Illuminati #3, I had to roll my eyes at the review of it in this month's CBG, which claimed that it "destroys" continuity and "desecrates" old stories. (In fact, the entire review is written solely through the lens of how it fits continuity.) Since when has Secret Wars II ever been sacred? I agree with yo go re: I find myself dreading certain developments not because they bother me but because I know the complaints are going to be loud and tiresome (One More Day comes to mind).

At least my review of Illuminati #3 was kind of funny:

http://fraggmented.blogspot.com/2007/06/diabolical-ingenuity.html

But my main point wasn't just, "Gee, this is terrible continuity," it was "Gee, this is terrible continuity and nothing else worth reading at all." It's a story designed to do nothing more than shift continuity points around, it's utterly uninteresting (and, to someone who hasn't read all the Secret Wars stuff, borderline incoherent), and the one thing it's supposed to be doing, it does badly.

That's my complaint about so much of this sloppy continuity; it's that the stories have so little to recommend themselves besides the "must-see big event" quality, and they do a bad job of even that because they aren't paying attention to details.

Well, yeah. The CBG review doesn't address at all whether it's well-written or drawn, or entertaining on any level, neither of which are necessarily dependent on fidelity to continuity, nor does it seem to be aware of the nature of the series. (When a series is based around retroactive continuity, then how well it fits existing continuity is a reasonable concern, but that should be addressed directly if it's an issue.)

If the CBG review weren't so overwrought ("This spits on those [Secret Wars II] stories"), if it weren't so narrowly fixated on continuity to the exclusion of all other concerns (as though that's the only thing that's important when creating a comic) or tried to approach it in a wider context, or if the piece of continuity in question weren't one that was never particularly good to begin with, I have been able to bring myself to care. As it is, no, not particularly.

By the way, Brian, she's in her costume because on the way home, she and Scott got into costume to fight some petty crooks. I'm crushed that you didn't know that. My faith in you is destroyed. Destroyed, I say!

By the way, Brian, she’s in her costume because on the way home, she and Scott got into costume to fight some petty crooks. I’m crushed that you didn’t know that. My faith in you is destroyed. Destroyed, I say!

Have faith, Greg!

They were wearing street clothes when they went out to get the groceries, but changed into their costumes for the fight.

So they decided to NOT change back AFTER the fight to get groceries?

LAME!!

"At least my review of Illuminati #3 was kind of funny:"

Here's a tip, never refer to anything you yourself have written as funny. Not only does it make you look pompous, but its kind of sad when it isn't even remotely funny.

Ah, I see. I thought they already HAD the groceries when they got in the fight, and just went home. But yes, you're right, they bought groceries in their costumes. I wonder how that went over at the store?

This is why you are the Dread Lord and Master, and I am but a humble peon!

The soon-to-be-infamous "Grocery Gaffe" will be resolved in a future Geoff Johns comic.

Why does anyone even care about New Gods?

It's never sold well, and it only really worked when it was an excuse for Kirby to go crazy.
Other than that they've always just been a pain in the arse.

It's not so much that they fridged her, it's that they did it in the first freaking issue!

C. This is all most likely temporary, probably in preparation of a reboot of the New Gods (I hope!).

Didn't Morrison do that?

It’s a story designed to do nothing more than shift continuity points around, it’s utterly uninteresting (and, to someone who hasn’t read all the Secret Wars stuff, borderline incoherent), and the one thing it’s supposed to be doing, it does badly.

Having never read all the Secret Wars stuff, I'd disagree with the parenthetical aside. And not giving a crap about the shifting of continuity points (since that's the symptom, not the cause), I can enjoy the comic for what it is: a done-in-one look at what's happening behind the scenes at different points in Marvel's history. "The one thing it's supposed to be doing," if you will.

FunkyGreenJerusalem - About most of the New Gods, that's a fair complaint. But Scott & Barda have been developed into generally terrific characters through their use in JLI, the comedy-Mister-Miracle book in the early 90s, Morrison's JLA, Birds of Prey and various other books.

Maybe they killed Brada because someone realized that Wonder Woman has turned into Big Barda.

IGNORE lame books. Best kind of bystander effect. Try it and see how freeing it is.

It feels awesome. I wouldn't know what kinda crap was occurring in 75% of DC's books if it wasn't discussed right here. A few years ago, I'd have actually been supporting them!

Connoe “Mary Sue” Hawke

Hey look, there's that word nobody knows how to use again.

Hey look, there’s that word nobody knows how to use again.

What do you mean? I found the following definition for Mary Sue at Wikipedia:

Mary Sue, sometimes shortened simply to Sue, is a pejorative term used to describe a fictional character, either male or female (though male characters are often dubbed "Larry Stu" or some other rhyming male name), that exhibits some or most of the clichés common in fan fiction, particularly if the character is unsympathetic to the reader. Characters were originally labeled as "Mary Sues" for being portrayed in an overly idealized way and lacking noteworthy or realistic flaws.

How am I misusing that term when applying it to Connor Hawke? He's suddenly the sun of an established character, is an ace archer, is one of the TOP 4 MARTIAL ARTISTS ON EARTH, right behind Shiva and Batman, his skillz even give Richard Dragon pause, Nightwing and Robin jaws drop when they see his skills in action, every woman he meets throws herself at him, plus he's the nicest, good-hearted guy on earth. I've rarely seen a character's perfection so crammed down the reader's throats as I have with Connor Hawke. One of the reasons I love Winick's Green Arrow is how battered and bloodied Connor often becomes in the book, and if he tops himself by killing the guy it'd be even better.

Let's not forget how friggin' hilarious it is to claim that Barda's (temporary) death was a "women in refrigerators" moment when some male New Gods were ALSO killed, some of them just as off-panel as Barda.

Also - the New Gods' death DIED earlier on this issue. The entity that used to represent Death for the New Gods is no longer there. Barda's death will be just as "permanent" as Superman's death was, which is NOT AT ALL.

One thing we can't deny is that DC knows how to push their readers' buttons. There's no reason whatsoever to believe that all these "deaths" of New Gods will last beyond the duration of this miniseries, and yet online fandom eats it up with a large spoon.

One of the reasons I love Winick’s Green Arrow is how battered and bloodied Connor often becomes in the book

Wow.

So coming to a blog called "Comics Should Be Good" is, what, you being ironic?

"How am I misusing that term when applying it to Connor Hawke? He’s suddenly the sun of an established character, is an ace archer, is one of the TOP 4 MARTIAL ARTISTS ON EARTH, right behind Shiva and Batman, his skillz even give Richard Dragon pause, Nightwing and Robin jaws drop when they see his skills in action, every woman he meets throws herself at him, plus he’s the nicest, good-hearted guy on earth."

And yet, Connor was insecure and socially awkward. He's not as good an archer as Ollie. During his first JLA adventure, he wins by dumb luck. He quit soon after because he felt out of place. He got his ass kicked by Silver Monkey, and the videotape of his utter defeat became an underground best-seller. His grandfather told him to stop moping like a loser. Eddie had to save his life every other issue.

I see your point about Connor coming off as too perfect, T, but he suffered his share of defeats and humiliations. Unless that is supposed to happen to Mary Sues, I don't think he qualifies.

Here’s a tip, never refer to anything you yourself have written as funny. Not only does it make you look pompous, but its kind of sad when it isn’t even remotely funny.

This, however, was hilarious.

I looked at the New Gods book today (but didn't but it) and when Scott found Barda on the kitchen floor it seemed so obviously similar to Animal Man coming home and finding his wife and kids also shot in their kitchen.

And as for the "Death of the New Gods," hey, they died their ugly death way back in 1972 when DC canceled the books out from under Kirby.
Other writers have since been dancing with the decaying carcasses for decades, and we've all been too polite to comment on the stink.

imho

Didn't buy it, I meant.