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Question About New Avengers #35

If you haven’t read New Avengers #35, I’m going to discuss the issue a bit, including some spoilers, so be forewarned!!! Anyhow, in the issue, writer Brian Michael Bendis decides to show us just how bad The Hood is, by having him sneak into Tigra’s apartment, beat the crap out of her while another guy videotapes them, while telling Tigra that if she ever interferes with a supervillain under his protection again, he’ll kill her mother. The scene as written is pretty brutal, and artist Leinil Francis Yu adds a little bit more to it by sexualizing it a bit more than I think even Bendis intended (although I am uncertain about that – I know Bendis laid the basic scene out panel by panel, but I dunno what that entails).

Now here’s my question – Bendis has apparently intimated that he will be having Tigra change sides and join the New Avengers, mostly as a result of this beating. Therefore, do you think that successfully takes something like this, which is about as “Women in Refrigerators” as you can get (Woman assaulted because, as Bendis himself points out, “[i]t was written to be disturbing,” which is basically the whole point behind WiR – that you can gain an easy visceral reaction by having a woman brutalized) OUT of the WiR dynamic, by actually having Tigra’s story be furthered with the beating having something to do with TIGRA? To wit, over in her first arc on Birds of Prey, Gail Simone had Black Canary kidnapped and severely beaten – but the scene wasn’t what one would term WiR, because the incident was not designed to show, say, Green Arrow’s reaction to the beating, or whatever, but strictly as part of a plot in Black Canary’s own book – the same sort of thing you would see in any other male-starring comic book. Batman or Daredevil or whoever can be beaten down to show him coming back stronger after the beating – that’s normal. That’s not, say, Sue Dibny being raped to piss the Justice League off (and her never reacting to it or exploring it at ALL).

Tigra being brutalized to show Hood’s prospective supervillain partners (and, later, the Avengers) how tough the Hood is (“Look! He beat the crap out of a WOMAN! And she didn’t even get to fight back! He MUST be evil!”) is bad.

Tigra being brutalized to further advance her development as a character – is that bad?

By the way, I don’t really recommend you read it, but for further reading on this scene, check out this interview with Bendis. It is pretty darn annoying, especially as the interviewer really seems to bend over backwards with “Man, those crazy feminists might have a problem with this scene – aren’t those feminists so crazy? What is their problem? How do you deal with such crazy feminists being so crazy about your scenes? They’re just crazy, right?.”

116 Comments

A quibble about your WiR framing: I think that the two functional definitions of WiR are where a female character is killed and/or depowered, thereby taking her out of the power fantasy sandbox for writers to play with and readers to enjoy,

and/or

as you pointed out, harming a female to get a reaction from a male _character_.

Picking on a woman character because its more disturbing may still be a bad/lame/effectively sexist trope, but it’s a side issue to WiR. I think its worth quibbling about because I think the WiR concept too often eclipses other potentially interesting and useful critical conversations.

If there’s a problem with the way/level a person reacts to stuff like this, it won’t be because he or she is a feminist, it will be because he or she is a comics fan, and we are dumb. Bendis should know this.

I’m gonna break out some hot dogs just in case that poster with the, ahem, wynne-ing personality shows up!

Sorry, Eric, I specifically defined how I use the term here so I WOULDN’T have to get into a “What definition are you using?” discussion. I should have added it to the piece.

I’ll add that as a link to the above piece now. Sorry about that.

My two cents: female characters should not be immune from brutal beatings. Let the writer write what he wants.

I’ve read plenty of comics where male characters are tortured/beaten to further a dark/gritty feel to the comic, why should female characters be treated any differently (in the context of writing a fictional story, mind you)

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=133467

Taken from there where he comments on it.

Hey Brian, no need to apologize to anyone–what are you, Canadian?

I am a little confused now, by your phrasing in this post, but that probably indicates your ambivalence.

My answer: I don’t think it’s _useful_ to characterize a given event as a fridging until the immediate storyline has played out (see also Donna Troy recently in Countdown and Big Barda in Death of the New Gods). If it’s important for some reason to get a clear yes/no on the possible fridging with Avengers 35, we need to see how much juice comes from it working as a “job” for the Hood, and how much it works to give Tigra–recently a nobody–a cool and gripping storyline.

I think there’s a good case to be made that regardless, the sequence as illustrated in New Avengers 35 is sexist and distractingly exploitative. Which may, in effect, fit your own definition, regardless of what Tigra next does, and to whom.

Also, the Hood is ungodly lame, and I used to think that was his appeal, like when I first read stories about Gotham’s Black Mask. Actually, throw in Doctor Light there and we have an established trend.

Umm, OvercompenSadists, maybe?

Georgeblanks:

Specifically with Tigra, and I’d imagine with other cases, the difference is believed to be that the female subject of the beating isn’t shown actively resisting or fighting back, where a male character certainly would be.

I haven’t read it yet, but there’s the script for the scene.

Thanks, Matt!

Yeah, it was about what I figured. I sincerely doubted that Bendis would have scripted some of the more sexualized parts that Yu drew into the scene, and Bendis’ script bears that out.

I think there’s a good case to be made that regardless, the sequence as illustrated in New Avengers 35 is sexist and distractingly exploitative. Which may, in effect, fit your own definition, regardless of what Tigra next does, and to whom.

Yeah, that’s my question in a nutshell, Eric.

Is the scene so sexist and distractingly exploitative that it does not really matter if the scene works for her character development in the future?

In fact, I think you can make a case for the scene as a sort of Cousin Larry Trick (definition here) by Bendis, where he gets to HAVE the sexist/exploitative scene, with the excuse “But we’re addressing her character in the future, so it’s okay!”

Then I guess the question is… could he have found a more creative, less exploitative way to accomplish both what he wanted to with the Hood and set the stage for Tigra’s development?

I guess it’s also a chicken and the egg thing. Did he already intend to do something with Tigra that something like this would be necessary for, or did the beating (and getting the Hood over as a real dangerous scumbag) come first and the idea to use it to advance Tigra came later?

I think something that muddies the issue is that, when done right, just about any storytelling technique can be appropriate. No matter how overused, misused, cliché or predicable a particular situation is, it can be used properly and effectively. So, even when something is used inappropriately and tastelessly 99% of the time, there is always going to be that 1%.

In this case, I tend to give Bendis the benefit of the doubt. he has a long history of using horrific personal events to build characters. See Alias or his run on Daredevil. A large part of what he does is having bad things happen to good people, and then having more bad things happen. And then a few more for good measure. Then he sees what comes out he other side.

I’m not sure this is a WiR. Sure, she was beaten – mostly for shock value and in a greatly orchestrated encounter. She wasn’t killed, and was able to fight back as much as she was able. She was left ALIVE as an example. Perhaps this might qualify as a WiR variant.

I find it amusing that they’re all impressed with Hood taking her out. 1) she’s pretty low on the power-level meter, 2) he has the jump on her, 3) he’s shooting at her while he’s invisible. That’s like being thrilled that LSU beat East Toenail State Community College 112-0. So what! Get a mainliner (EG: Daredevil) to kowtow to you and I’ll be impressed.

The scene is garbage. I didn’t buy the issue specifically because of how Tigra was portrayed, and I don’t even care about Tigra as a character. I don’t want to see women characters attacked so viciously. I don’t want to see women begging and not fighting back. I don’t want to see a woman’s humiliation broadcast for the sadistic enjoyment of others. I don’t want to see a woman tortured so a character can be “disturbing.”

And if we get a new, “tough” Tigra out of it? It’s still awful.

Here’s a note to comic book writers- women can “get tough” without being raped, tortured, or depowered first. Find a new motivation. For that matter, not all women characters need to become darker and more aggressive.

I feel the same way about male characters, for that matter.

I’m leaning away from WiR too. It’s more like a wake-up call for her to stop trying to seduce Pym and get back in the gym. Almost completely unintentional rhyme there. Seriously, I think she’s going to join the NA and come back to take out the Hood herself. So, maybe mark it up to misguided empowerment on Bendis’ part, not WiR.

The end of Y: #58 is TOTALLY WiR, if I may get slightly off topic for a sentence.

Bri, et al,

I think our answer here is that, at least, it was a poor creative choice almost by definition, because it seems to have pulled a significant number of people out of the story.

I agree with both Ryan H and Mike L, oddly. However, (going completely subjective) certain tropes which have been branded sexist (for example, depictions of even partially sexualized sadism against against any female character) pull me completely out of a story now. Whatever else it is, its as lame as “shootout in a warehouse”.

Ya know, reading Y in trades, I do not expect to be kept completely spoiler free, but…damnit.

After seeing an issue of She-Hulk where she gets beaten up by a female villain cited as an example of WiR, we should probably just institute an outright ban on female characters in action/adeventure stories and be done with it.

There’s so many examples of people screaming misogyny/racism/homophobia every single time anything remotely negative happens to a female/non-white/gay character that they’ve pretty much lost all meaning.

Bizarro, I’m so terribly sorry. I didn’t even think about a spoiler warning. It still gets my blood up so much, I don’t think about the people who read the trades.

After seeing an issue of She-Hulk where she gets beaten up by a female villain cited as an example of WiR, we should probably just institute an outright ban on female characters in action/adeventure stories and be done with it.

There’s so many examples of people screaming misogyny/racism/homophobia every single time anything remotely negative happens to a female/non-white/gay character that they’ve pretty much lost all meaning.

“I once saw a bad argument made about WiR so you shouldn’t make any arguments involving WiR” is not exactly a persuasive position, Conor.

“My two cents: female characters should not be immune from brutal beatings. Let the writer write what he wants.”

I agree with George Blanks. Many things worse happened to males, including males written by Bendis himself. I’m not saying there are never cases of WiR, or sexism by the part of male writers, but almost everytime i see a writer being accused of that, it seems to be used by people who are either so politically correct they lost every sense of ridiculous or those who have an agenda.

Sorry, too many people crying wolf makes me roll my eyes whenever the subject is brought up. There’s certainly legit examples out there, but to find them you’ve got to sift through a pile of bullshit.

Eh, all the work-up over a mild, barely-passable scene? Come on, let’s save the indignant vitriol when its fully deserved, what say you?

What really gets my goat is internet fanbois wishing to dictate to what levels book writers can operate. So Bendis wanted to shock the reader with the vicious Tigra beating? That’s fine. You don’t like it? Don’t pick up another issue. Don’t attempt to censor the man’s work because you may consider it “out of line”. To me, that’s more unforgiveable than some scene that Bendis may or may not have succeeded in crafting.

We’re veering into dangerous Kathy Bates-James Caan territory with this “how dare you mess with that character in that way” dialogue.

Serious question: has anyone actually suggested censorship? Or merely censureship?

Ha! I r witee

I felt deeply disturbed reading that sequence and I kept thinking to myself “Would it have been that disturbing had the Hood wailed on, say, Stingray or Triathalon?” I don’t know.

I’ve seen such scenes be that disturbing with male heroes (like Nighthawk in Ultimate Defenders) but I do worry Bendis is drawing on the added disturb-factor of it being a woman. Equally, I’m disquieted he picked the woman who betrayed the Anti-Registration side, so he picked a hero who–depending on your stance of Civil War, and let’s face it New Avengers is an anti-registration team– could be seen as ‘deserving’ the beating.

All in all, I was unsettled by it.

Tigra’s an Avenger of some long standing and capability. Therefore, it’s shocking. If the same had been done to Stingray or Triathalon it wouldn’t have had any impact and we’d be smirking at B-listers getting a kicking. But we are supposed to be appalled. The only way to make it worse would have been to use Firebird….

Generally, Tigra is getting a profile raising lately so I think we can say it’s a long term plan.

The only way to make it worse would have been to use Firebird….

Yeah, ’cause then she’d be shouting “Santo Christo!” and “Dios mios!” with every punch.

” I’m disquieted he picked the woman who betrayed the Anti-Registration side, so he picked a hero who–depending on your stance of Civil War, and let’s face it New Avengers is an anti-registration team– could be seen as ‘deserving’ the beating.”

So, if a writer has a woman suffering not because she’s a woman, but because she has done some questionasble things, does that qualify as WiR too? When it’s “acceptable” for a female character to be beaten up to death?

Not WiR. Tigra is an established veteran super-hero. She’s going to lose a fight now and then, sometimes bruatally so. Treating her differently would be insulting to the character’s long history.

I’m not even a Tigra fan, but after reading the story, I’d buy an issue featuring her payback. It was a damn good story.

Sorry GarBut, your hotdogs are going to waste. I’m not into Bendis- I’m sure he’s a perfectly good writer but his style rubs me the wrong way- so I don’t know enough about this to have an opinion.

I remember the storyline “seige at avengers mansion, where mr hyde beats the crap out of jarvis viciouslyn forcing a crying Captain America to watch. I never heard anyone cry about Butlers in Refridgerators or get all indignant about it. Batman was abused and demoralizzed for dozens of issues and got his back broken, with the intent of making him come back stronger. So why can’t it happen to women characters anymore? I agree it can be bad when done in gratuitous hack fashion like Meltzer and the Dibny rape, but I find Bendis’s explanations to be satisfying.

I think that coddling women and crying misogyny every time something bad happens to them in a story and treating them with kid gloves to avoid offending anyone is just as sexist a double standard as gratuitous rape scenes. It is insulting to women. If women are so fragile and needing of protection that we can’t show them getting the same abuse men get, then maybe we shouldn’t even have them be superheroes in comic books then, right? And if they are as capable as men of being superheroes, then they are also capable of being beaten and demoralized like DD in Born Again and Jarvis in avengers: siege.

I agree with Bendis’ statement that he needed to put the whole beating on panel, otherwise people would have inferred rape. Also, another person said that beating Tigra doesn’t show the hood to be badass at all. I disagree. Even some of the most vicious and brutal criminals in history have drawn the line at women and children and cops. One of the psychological tools of intimidation pable escobar used to scare other criminals was to show his willingness to kill women and children (and government officials, another common taboo among criminals). It set him apart from the american mafia and other previous criminal organizations. What the Hood was trying to convey was not raw power but sheer callous ruthlessness. Sadly, women and children convey that message.

When’s it “acceptable” for a female character to be beaten up to death?

When she doesn’t have dinner ready by the time you get home.

“Tigra’s an Avenger of some long standing and capability. Therefore, it’s shocking. If the same had been done to Stingray or Triathalon it wouldn’t have had any impact and we’d be smirking at B-listers getting a kicking.”

So… what exactly makes Tigra NOT a B-lister? I don’t care if she was a former member of The Avengers, Led Zeppelin, or the Apollo-13 crew, she’s simply not an a-list character. She is clearly low-powered and seldomly used. Now, low-powered does NOT make her a b-lister, but the historical lack of use does.

The only thing that makes this a “shocking” scene is that a man is wasting a woman. It HAD to be a low-power b-lister in order to be viable. It would have totally unbelievable if he trashed the Wasp, cuz’ she’s a low-powered a-lister. Same with Photon, but cuz she has power.

Personally, I’m happy to see where this goes. I don’t think Hood will like it when Tigra eventually gets him. She has great stealth capability. With her family on the line, I might expect her to be willing to use lethal force.

@ davidw:

Thx for being a good sport. I know that posts can come across with more-than-intended, or unintended, snark; it’s the nature of the written word versus the spoken.

Yes, female characters get beat up on, as do male characters. I don’t want to see it. I won’t call for censorship or boycott Bendis, I just won’t buy New Avengers anymore.

Superheroines can be beat up, sure, their lives can be ruined a la Matt Murdock, okay. I object to how Bendis & Yu portrayed Tigra’s assault in New Avengers. I think the twisted sexual undertones (making a tough woman submissive, making the beating a voyeuristic experience for other people)were too much.

GarBut-

TELL ME ABOUT IT

She has great stealth capability.

Yeah, who would ever notice a mostly-naked, stripey, orange-furred woman with C-cups?

I think that coddling women and crying misogyny every time something bad happens to them in a story and treating them with kid gloves to avoid offending anyone is just as sexist a double standard as gratuitous rape scenes. It is insulting to women.

T., while I fully appreciate your good intentions, and in fact agree with you to an extent…how about just letting me decide what exactly I want to be insulted by, OK?

With that said: from what I’ve read re: this sequence I honestly don’t think the writer’s choices were deliberately misogynistic. On the other hand…they were sloppy, lazy, distasteful and wholly unnecessary. Excusing him for the one doesn’t my any means negate the others.

If women are so fragile and needing of protection that we can’t show them getting the same abuse men get, then maybe we shouldn’t even have them be superheroes in comic books then, right?

Not a valid argument. Superheroines, by and large, get to fight back. A male superhero in this situation would either be fighting back, or wouldn’t be in this situation.
The problem here isn’t that Tigra’s taking abuse, but that she’s totally helpless beneath it. She’s being humiliated specifically because she’s a woman – not even an actual personality, just a concept.

Give her a chance to fight back – or at least a chance to react in a specific, personalised way – and I’ll buy that the sequence isn’t offensive.

Colour me unconvinced that what happens to Tigra next will necessarily be “character development”. In fact I’d lay odds it won’t be.

That’s the term that needs defining, I think.

Schnitzy Pretzlepants

November 7, 2007 at 4:38 pm

I think that male superheroes are seldom beaten down in such a viscous manner.

I don’t really care whether this is WiR or not – is sucks and it so could have been done without the brutal smackdown – simply find a means to cut to the chase of The Hood calling Tigra’s mom.

The get the crap beaten out of them time and time again, but there is a level of sadism here – at least in the script that I read on the link that is just far too pleasurably sadistic.

I’m sure that there are ample cases where this happens to male characters, so maybe I am just getting tired of the excess in scenes like this regardless of gender.

I think the over-all thing though is that because of centuries of gender politics being the way that they were, that it becomes appallingly difficult to show this much “on camera” violence happening to a female without there being a sexualized element – intentional or otherwise – creeping into it all.

Ultimately, the problem is that almost all female superheroes are sexualized from the get-go, and therefore, any violence towards them, intentionally or not, takes on an unsettling tone.

This is where the over-sexualization of superhero comics becomes a glaring blemish. You can argue in defense of cheesecake all you want, but once you start mixing it in with graphic violence, it comes across as extremely disturbing and implies something about the creator of the piece, accurate or not.

So, basically, if the practice of making all the superheroines look like porn stars was stopped, it might not be as offensive to see a woman get pistol-whipped on camera, while having her mother threatened.

Definitely still disturbing, though.

I’d say this is more of a WiR situation than Black Canary’s beating. That took the lead of a longrunning series and put her through the ringer — physically and emotionally — to take her character to a higher level. Tigra hadn’t even appeared in New Avengers prior to that point (as far as I can recall), and has appeared maybe a dozen or so times in the past ten years. If it were supposed to be unexploitive he would’ve given the character some face time before she got threatened and beaten to within an inch of her life or would’ve had the Hood attack one of the NA regulars (male or female).

Personally, I didn’t find the actual beating ‘that’ bad, but considering this is enough of a concern that there’s a name for this kind of thing should make creators at least aware of what they’re doing when they do this sort of thing.

Have a good day.
John Cage

Apocadoca-

I can’t coment on this particular comic as I haven’t read it.

I can say though that I think you just hit the nail on the head (or at least a nail, anyway) regarding violence towards women in superhero comics.

Well said.

If the Hood did to Tigra what he did to Wolverine in the issue before that readers and non readers alike would hunt down Bendis and lynch him.

Imagine a story where the Hood and his men ambush the Wakandan royal couple.

My thoughts:

It’s not “Women In Refridgerators” specifically, because that is the phenomenon where the violence against the woman is done specifically to get the (implied as more important) male protagonist to react. If this were done to get Hank Pym, her current beau, psyched up to lay the smack-down on the Hood, then it would be WiR.

However, just because it’s not WiR, doesn’t mean it’s not misogynist and sexist. It’s a situation where a male writer decided to demonstrate how powerful a male villain is, and chose to do so by brutalizing a self-professed “feminist super-hero” (I have a theory that Tigra gets a lot more of this stuff than other female heroes because she was originally presented as a feminist, but that’s a lot more speculative) who was in a skimpy outfit at the time, evoking writer’s fiat as the only explanation as to why she just wasn’t good enough to fight him off. It’s an ugly, unpleasant scene with no emotional compensation for the reader whose sympathies, presumably, lie with Tigra. (Admittedly, that might change in five or six years’ time, when Bendis finishes this story arc, but for now, the message is very clearly, “If you are a woman, evil men will brutalize you and there’s just nothing you can do about it. Even if you are powerful, the lamest, most half-assed supervillain can still hand you your head.”)

If the Hood did to Tigra what he did to Wolverine in the issue before that readers and non readers alike would hunt down Bendis and lynch him.

And if Wolverine had cleavage showing, people might have cared.

Some, though, for the wrong reasons.

I can’t coment on this particular comic as I haven’t read it.

I haven’t held the product in my hands, but I’ve seen scans across the web that cover pretty much the whole issue.

That said, if there’s some page I haven’t seen that offers some majorly important context, I’m willing to reconsider my stance.

@ brian:

Might be worth scanning and posting the comic pages in question, at this point. A lot of us are, myself included, are involved in a debate over controversial material THAT WE HAVE NOT EVEN SEEN.

What really gets my goat is internet fanbois wishing to dictate to what levels book writers can operate.

Fanbois? What are you, Avril Lavigne?

I have seen the pages in question, over at scans daily. But I haven’t read any of the rest of the comic, or series. So I don’t know the context.

Taken out of context, it is a pretty nasty scene, though.

If the Hood did to Tigra what he did to Wolverine in the issue before that readers and non readers alike would hunt down Bendis and lynch him.

Wolverine, under Frank Tieri, was a victim of an attempted gang rape, along with extended torture sequences where he has a psionic vampire tie him up, torture him and eat chunks of his flesh and bite off his nipple. Then he jams a nail into his eye, plucks out his eyeball and proceeds to eat it. Way worse than what happened to Tigra and not a fraction of the same uproar, and no one lynched Tieri, so it’s safe to say that you are wrong. There is a double standard operating, but it’s not one in favor of male characters.

Also, in the Spider-Man/Wolverine mini that came out a few years ago, Wolverine was captured and tortured and it was recorded by camera and broadcast, so it’s not like Tigra is being singled out with the camera thing either.

It’s just that there is no men in refridgerator movement, so we just let it slide when we encounter it happening to me. When it happens to women though, people notice it more.

People complained about Tieri’s Wolverine issue a LOT when it came out.

Also, believe it or not, the vampire torture sequence in WOlverine had a homoserotic sexually sadistic component as well.

Also, believe it or not, the vampire torture sequence in WOlverine had a homoserotic sexually sadistic component as well.

Yup.

It was ridiculous how offensive that issue was.

Especially the end gag, which essentially was, “Haha – you’re GAY!!”

Wait, I was talking about the Tieri issues with a vampire named Mauvais. I don’t recall that end gag. Are you talking about the Tieri story with Wolverine and Punisher (which had a “haha you’re gay” gag at the end) or is my memory just wonky?

People complained about Tieri’s Wolverine issue a LOT when it came out.

Yeah, but the guy I was responding to said that the uproar would be a lot worse if something like what happened to Tigra happened to Wolverine, as if people are more apathetic about violence toward women. I think this is not true. Although there were complaints about the Wolverine issue, I do think it pales in comparison to the Tigra complaints.

Oh, you’re right, T, I was confusing the issues. I was thinking of the Punisher one.

Man, he had some messed up Wolverine issues, didn’t he?

T-

I think you might be getting the wrong end of the stick about the Wolverine/Tigra thing. I don’t think the suggestion was that people are more apathetic about violence to women- I’m sure I saw a preview somewhere of Woverine having his… well, not to put too fine apoint on it, his bollocks ripped off. I have a feeling that may be what the other poster was talking about.

In which case, the equivelant happening to a female character? Yeah, I hope people would have something to say about that. It happens to Wolverine though, and at most it gets a laugh.

So I think the suggestion was that people are more apathetic about violence towards men, not women.

So I think the suggestion was that people are more apathetic about violence towards men, not women.

Sure, and that’s because western society’s sexist ways have conditoned us to think of violence as a positive thing when it happens to males. You become a real man, and get tough, all while learning how to dispense violence yourself, and take your place at the top of the world. Living in a patriarchal society also conditions us to believe men to be more likely to survive a vicious physical assault. We’ve lived in a culture where men have supremacy for so long that we are trained to think of them as stronger. That’s sexist towards both genders, yes, but the women get the short end of the stick, there, so they are where the complaints come from.

Not arguing with you about anything, by the way, just jumping off from what you were talking about.

The thing that is most offensive is NOT that Tigra gets beaten up. As many people have pointed out, superheroes get beat up much worse all the time. It’s not even that she doesn’t fight back – she was surprised and taken down before she could react, and that also has happened to superheroes all the time, including someone like Batman, who always acts like he knows everything. The most offensive thing about the scene is that Tigra begs. Male superheroes NEVER beg, even if someone threatened their mother. They spit defiance back in the bad guy’s face. I can’t even remember a male superhero begging for anything, even if they endure punishment that would make a normal person do anything to stop it. If Bendis hadn’t written that “Stoppp” that Tigra whimpers and instead had her spit in the Hood’s face, there’s nothing horrifying about the scene – it’s a fairly standard superhero beatdown that will come back to haunt the bad guy.

That’s why this is a sexist scene. The implication is that even if you’re a tough female superhero, one threat to your loved ones and you fold like a lawn chair.

People don’t take the Tieri Wolverine stuff as seriously as the Bendis Tigra sequence, because Tieri is widely acknowledged as an awful, terrible writer, and Bendis is generally considered a decent-to-very-good writer whose work with characters tends to be lasting and influential. Also, New Avengers sells considerably more copies than Tieri’s Wolverine run, and fans perceive its events as mattering in a way that was never really ascribed to Tieri’s Wolverine schlock. Tieri’s Wolverine run is already more or less ignored, so nothing that happened in it really matters by now. The Tigra sequence is apparently a lynchpin of her future characterization, so it is more worth discussing as its impact is likely to last longer.

Anyway, I don’t think the Tigra sequence qualifies as WiR, one because Tigra wasn’t utterly destroyed as a superheroine over it, and two, because the scene clearly isn’t happening just to prompt an effect male teammates or a male significant other. Remember, the original WiR scene was specifically a very promising female supporting character getting destroyed largely just to make her boyfriend angry at a villain, and most of the actual violence was entirely off-screen.

What is angering about the Tigra sequence isn’t _what happened to her_, but specifically _how the event was depicted on-camera_. If it had simply been made clear that Tigra was viciously beaten off-camera and none of the footage depicted so carefully, then I don’t think we’d be having this conversation at all. I don’t think the “didn’t want people to think rape” excuse holds water, either; it would take maybe one panel to make it clear that an off-panel beating had not included sexual battery. Certainly less time than was lavished on the panels of The Hood going “PUNCH!” and Tigra going “OW!” and the thugs watching going “YAY!”

Apodaca already nailed why that’s upsetting– when a character as ridiculously over-sexualized as Tigra is put into a violent situation, then you have sexualized violence by default. A female character that was more clearly established as primarily a person moreso than a lust object could be put in the same situation and automatically make it less unsettling and inappropriate. Because, really, at the end of the day, the Tigra beating is a bit too melodramatic to really be worthy of giving offense. It is unquestionably an inappropriate take on its particular genre trope, though, and best considered a writing experiment that absolutely did not succeed due to poor communication with the artist.

One more thought I’d like to chip in:

Bendis is taking heat for his response, but he’d deserve way more heat if he’d just said “hey, there’s nothing wrong in my script” and then hung his artist out to dry.

As usual in these situations, I mostly blame the editorial staff for having too light a hand or too quick a glance.

Apocadoca- stop it, you’re freaking me out.

I agree with every single word in your last comment.

It must be sign of the apocolypse. (apocadocalypse?)

wow I just read the script… pretty repellent… so who are we supposed to relate to here? Tigra? Who doesn’t get an opinion on the matter? It’s weird that the next scene is a bunch of guys hooting about how cool it was….

and “This was fun”

kinda sickening…

“This is where the over-sexualization of superhero comics becomes a glaring blemish. You can argue in defense of cheesecake all you want, but once you start mixing it in with graphic violence, it comes across as extremely disturbing and implies something about the creator of the piece, accurate or not.”

Actually, I think it reveals more about the readers that begin to scream about every little bad thing that happens to females than about the writers…

T, I’m not sure you understood my point because you kinda agreed with it while arguing.

These things can and will happen in comics, these people fist fight each other for control of the world every week. Bendis tried to clear the air, but no matter what he says somehow people will think that he made it happen to Tigra because she’s a woman and not a hero, an Avenger for decades.

Apodaca, does it make a difference that she’s in a bikini? Do you blame Bendis for that? Because that’s all she’s worn for like a million years.

And the bottom line is that Hood is a super villain. He’s among serial killers and racists with reality altering cubes.

It seems that quite often, an absolutist defense is given to a lot of these matters. “If you say X, then you must be saying Bendis is Y.”

That is not the case.

Taking issue with what Bendis wrote in New Avengers #35 does not suddenly invalidate all the previous good work he has done (particularly with female characters), but nor does all his previous good work (particularly with female characters) invalidate the problems with New Avengers #35.

So it really is not a big deal if people do not agree with Bendis when he says there’s nothing wrong with the scene. And I also think “clearing the air” is a poor usage of terms, as it makes it seem as though Bendis just completely explained away any problems people had with the scene. He did not. He gave his position, which is fine. It is also fine to disagree with said position.

Not Ray, you are right, I did misinterpret your point. I actually agree with you now that I reread your post. My bad. Not a total waste though, since my examples still help to support your original point.

Just wanted to add, it’s also not like Bendis has a one-sided track record of mistreating women, or even a neutral track record regarding his portrayals of females. If anything, I think from most of his writing I’ve seen, he tends to really like strong women almost to a fault, although nowhere near as bad as Chris Claremont’s pro-woman fixation. Just in the few issues of Mighty Avengers I’ve read, I’d say there are tons of kickass portrayals of take-charge women. The women in that title actually outshine the men in my opinion. That’s another reason why I wouldn’t indict him as a misogynist simply based on this one moment.

That’s another reason why I wouldn’t indict him as a misogynist simply based on this one moment.

See Comment 69. ;)

I think you can compare the Tigra scene with Kingpin’s abduction of Spider-Man a few issues back in Ultimate Spider-Man. He basically lays out the same rules for him (you play by my rules, you don’t mess with my stuff, and if you do I will crush you and everyone you love). While it’s somewhat chilling, it certainly doesn’t have the same sexual aspect (which admittedly is mostly due to Leniel Yu) and it certainly didn’t take me out of the story like the Tigra scene did.

However, for some reason, I feel more like the recent situation in Daredevil with Milla is more WiR than this. But I’m also a guy so what the hell do I know.

I didn’t read anywhere about this being used as part of an ongoing characterization of Tigra, rather than “Hey remember this character oh well we just brutalized/killed him/her”, which is the sort of thing I hated in Millar’s Enemy of the State (among other things). I don’t think it adds an element of “she deserved it” to it, but it would make a certain amount of sense for her to be very upset with Tony Stark & Co that she betrayed her friends (and Captain America!) for their cause and all she got in return was pistol-whipped.

“She has great stealth capability.”

“Yeah, who would ever notice a mostly-naked, stripey, orange-furred woman with C-cups?”

Have you ever seen a brightly colored cat slink along the wall at the baseboard or around the edges of the furniture? Sure. Have you ever HEARD said cat slinking? No, because they’re stealthy. Now give the cat human intelligence, training, and motivation. Tigra, the cat-woman, has great stealth capabilities. Because she’s never use them to her advantage does not mean they’re not there.

Realistically, in this situation, I’d expect her to dye her fur black, track him down, sneak up on him, and put him out of comission for good. He can be invisible all he wants – if he doesn’t get the jump on her, he doesn’t break her nose and she can smell him out. With her connections, she can get some IR-goggles, dismantle the lights, and (literally) rip him a new one.

Cornelius Savage

November 8, 2007 at 9:44 am

I found the scene disturbing, but far from WiR. She was broadsided, then her mother was threatened, and to the contrary, I have seen male characters beg when their loved ones’ lives are on the line (Batman crying in The Nail rushes to mind). As well, I’ve seen male characters surrender under the same conditions.

The scene was meant to be disturbing. I think it reveals The Hood (and his peanut gallery) to be a complete (and very un-tough) scumbag who is setting himself up for a brutal comeuppance, and it was meant to. Villains are SUPPOSED to be nasty pieces of work. Some possess varying degrees of honor; some do not. The Hood used this to set an example to the good guys and to endear the villains to him. It was supposed to bring up feelings of revulsion and give the reader a lack of resolution. I think it was effective – and therefore tough to stomach.

As far as Bendis not properly setting her up as a respectable character beforehand, so what? Comics of yore treated every introduction as a first appearance. They don’t anymore, and writers assume you either know the character or have access to Google. If you don’t have an emotional attachment to Tigra, that’s on the reader, not the writer in this context. The character is roughly 30 years old: B-list or not, she’s made plenty of appearances since her debut.

I agree completely with Cornelius Savage. It’s a horrible, visceral scene. It’s not pleasant and Tigra doesn’t come out well in any sense. I think it accomplishes exactly what its supposed to.

I would add that I think there is plenty of misogyny in the scene, but that it’s not on the writer. The misogynist is the Hood. He’s clearly horrible, craven, and all manner of yuck. The thing is, it becomes dangerous when we translate the motivations of a stories villains to its author.

Is Bendis sometimes misogynistic? Maybe, but this is not a scene we can use to determine his intent or motivation.

Some of the complaints have to do with Tigra not acting like a hero. I think part of the problem here is a too-rigid understanding of the comic hero genre. Bendis, historically, has been shown to expand the genre to include heroes who often stray from full-bore heroism. His whole run on Daredevil featured a pretty human incarnation of the hero. Alias too, not very heroic in the common sense. Powers is built on heroes who are a mix of hero and coward. To see Tigra say “Stoppp” makes perfect sense when you consider the circumstance and Bendis’ penchant for bring heroes down to human proportions.

It’s not necessary to like that he does that, but it is important to recognize the context of the work.

Apodaca, does it make a difference that she’s in a bikini? Do you blame Bendis for that? Because that’s all she’s worn for like a million years.

It definitely makes a difference that she’s in a bikini. I don’t blame Bendis for her wearing a bikini, but I blame him for picking a character that has a bikini for a costume. Like you say, she’s been wearing it for years, it’s not like it would’ve taken too long to figure out how that would turn out, visually.

Which is exactly the point I was making. With female characters so frequently and automatically sexualized, you can’t just do a straight-up battery scene with them. It automatically takes on a sexual tone because you’re using a character who’s been hanging out on Avengers covers in “presenting” positions.

So, while it’s not Bendis’ fault that Tigra is a sexualized character, it absolutely IS his fault for choosing her to use in the scene.

Have you ever seen a brightly colored cat slink along the wall at the baseboard or around the edges of the furniture? Sure. Have you ever HEARD said cat slinking? No, because they’re stealthy. Now give the cat human intelligence, training, and motivation. Tigra, the cat-woman, has great stealth capabilities. Because she’s never used them to her advantage does not mean they’re not there.

Actually, that’s exactly what that means. She’s a fictional character and she’s only capable of doing what’s written. If it hasn’t been written, it hasn’t happened.

And being quiet is only half the job. That’s why wild animals have hair patterns that match their surroundings. It’s all well and good if you can step silently, but it only takes one glance to notice an orange-striped, furry person within a good fifty feet.

If she wore more than a bikini or colored her hair, sure. But as is, sneaking up on a guy with demon powers? I don’t buy it.

I would add that I think there is plenty of misogyny in the scene, but that it’s not on the writer. The misogynist is the Hood. He’s clearly horrible, craven, and all manner of yuck. The thing is, it becomes dangerous when we translate the motivations of a stories villains to its author.

The problem is, Bendis is not saying, “Yes, you’re right. It’s terrible and misogynistic, and that’s exactly how you should feel about the Hood.”

He’s saying, “I don’t think it’s sexualized at all.”

Huh, good point. He shouldn’t have said that.

Apodaca, you are batting a thousand.

Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Not if you rip its arms off.

Sorry, couldn’t resist!

We are talking about a ‘toon here, right?

“A lot of us are, myself included, are involved in a debate over controversial material THAT WE HAVE NOT EVEN SEEN.”
Welcome to the internet!

By Bendis’ own forthright admission, the scene was a) meant to be disturbing, and b) more than capable of being construed as a rape scene, had Tigra’s beat-down not been unflinchingly depicted.

So who’s he kidding.

As many people have said, heroes get their asses handed to them by villains all the time. But, how often is it really a worry that the readers of such scenes might naturally be expected to cry “RAPE!”, if not scrupulously handled? I think it’s very bloody interesting indeed that, out of all the hundreds and hundreds of different ways Tigra might have been beaten by the Hood, Bendis selected the one way where, in order to keep the accusations of rape DOWN, the violence needed to be amped UP.

The word is exploitative. And it’s not a dirty word. All writers play on their readers’ emotions, and there’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that. However, context: as I read it, this particular type of exploitative approach to material, in this particular type of book, is textually unwarranted, only there to shock and to titillate. And I found it cheap.

Not as cheap as the blockheaded denial of what it is, though.

An open question to everyone who brought out the tired “male superheroes get tortured all the time” argument that the rest of us can quote in our sleep:

Did you actually READ all of Brian’s post, or did something distract you halfway through? Like, maybe a pretty butterfly flew past your monitor?

That’s the only explanation I can think of for how you all could have missed the point quite so drastically. Well, no, I can think of others, they’re just not nice to say.

Male superheroes NEVER beg, even if someone threatened their mother.

That can’t be right, Greg. I can’t recall a specific time, so I won’t argue the point too far, but I’d swear we’ve seen male heroes beg in this exact same scenario. Kyle Rayner begging to save his mother, Superman begging to save Lois…something.

Do they gibber, though?

Cornelius Savage

November 9, 2007 at 8:33 am

Easy, folks. This is just a debate about a scene in a comic book.

“With female characters so frequently and automatically sexualized, you can’t just do a straight-up battery scene with them.”

Ummmm … no. I don’t know you (and I’m sure you’re a decent-to-great person), but who are you to determine what an artist or writer can create or what I as a reader read? Rhetorically speaking; I’m not trying to start a flame war. Really. The scene was as much about the attacker as the victim, and every layer of that scene was that this an evil twat doing an evil thing to a victim.

Sure, Bendis chose Tigra, who wears a bikini. She’s also an ex-Avenger who played a role in a recent event and has a long-developed backstory. She’s a valid character to use and not some total left field choice that he chose for her costume (or lack thereof). She may be sexualized, but the scene wasn’t. Readers’ minds will go where they may.

I don’t think the scene would have been effective had he played it soft, and we don’t yet know where Tigra as a character is yet going.

The problem is that if Bendis chose a female character who isn’t sexualized for this scene, he’s left with about five women (besides Aunt May). The problem is that women in comics are hyper-sexualized to start with. Both men and women are: One of the defining characteristics of drawing superheroes is the celebration of the beautiful bodies they possess (and generally, bodies that the readers and creators don’t). Out-dated? Maybe. Worthy of being challenged? Absolutely.

But it ain’t Bendis’ fault, and if he wants to do a battery scene, more power to him.

An open question to everyone who brought out the tired “male superheroes get tortured all the time” argument that the rest of us can quote in our sleep:

Did you actually READ all of Brian’s post, or did something distract you halfway through? Like, maybe a pretty butterfly flew past your monitor?

That’s the only explanation I can think of for how you all could have missed the point quite so drastically. Well, no, I can think of others, they’re just not nice to say.

I really don’t see why that’s such a bad argument. Oh would you rather people get more specific and say “Male characters get tortured and abused all the time in order to get a reaction out of other male characters.” Like Blue Beetle in Countdown to Infinite Crisis or Jason Todd with the crowbar. I can think of several examples where male characters are abused to get a reaction from a male superhero.

Oh would you rather people get more specific and say “Male characters get tortured and abused all the time in order to get a reaction out of other male characters.”

I would rather they get that specific, yes.

Then they would find that, while examples obviously exist, there’s nothing “all the time” about it.

And I’ll give you Ted Kord, since Booster, at least, became a better hero because of it. But Jason Todd wasn’t killed to get a reaction out of Batman. Jason Todd was killed because a majority of the readers hated his living guts.

She may be sexualized, but the scene wasn’t.

Then why was Bendis concerned people might think a rape was going on? Is he similarly concerned every time Tigra has a fight with somebody? Is she just that sexually-charged a character?

I don’t think the scene would have been effective had he played it soft

Well, you understand the scene has no life of its own, no rights, no needs it can compel anyone to give to it. Bendis invented it, and he wanted it hard from the beginning, and that’s why it exists in the first place. He wasn’t handed a plot outline that included the line “Hood proves himself to thugs by taking down, oh, Tigra or somebody” and told to damn well make it work — these aren’t the days of Stan and Larry Lieber. So it was always up to him what kind of scene and story he was going to write, and this is what he settled on. Effective? It’s effective. Bendis wrote it to disturb, and it’s disturbing. Did you not find it disturbing, Cornelius?

I submit, then, that you did not think it was effective. If it didn’t bother you, you see. Because it’s supposed to! This is the problem with everybody who says “this was totally fine, totally normal”, is that it wasn’t written that way, it wasn’t supposed to be totally fine and totally normal. Bendis says so, for heaven’s sake.

I’m not trying to start a flame war either, but how much sexual content does there have to be before we can freely admit that a scene is sexualized? Why this apparent taboo against saying so? What’s the harm? You bet I saw sexualized violence in that scene, and I’m stunned that some people didn’t. Let me ask this: if Bendis announced that the scene was intended to call on the classic Woman In Jeopardy trope of suspense movies, and that he thought it was sexualized because of that, and was trying to use it on purpose…would you still not see it?

Would you not know what he was talking about?

Because I don’t think Tigra’s character is going anywhere except to a generic grim + gritty “dark place”, I don’t think the scene is justified in terms of character development. I think it’s way, way over the top, and tries to program the reader’s responses just a little too much. And I see that Tigra is not just being beaten there, but she’s being subjugated, so I notice the sexual angle. And what about all that makes my reading of NA #35 an outlier?

(Hint: it isn’t an outlier.)

I am trying so hard not to get involved in this.

BUT

“This is just a debate about a scene in a comic book.”

Yes, thank you for that. ‘Cos, you know, some of us thought this was a real event. I was totally organising a “buy tigra some proper clothes” charity ball.

PLEASE NOTE: sarcasm.

Cornelius Savage

November 10, 2007 at 8:17 am

David, if my comment on the increasingly harsh tone of the debate offended you and was the spur to get you involved in a thread you strove to avoid, I apologize.

Anon, I never said I thought it was normal. I said it was disturbing and therefore effective. Yes, it got a punch-gut reaction from me, but it didn’t send me to my favorite comic message board to tout my shock-and-outrage bonafides. I thought I was clear I took it in the context of the story he is trying to tell and the set-up he has to work with, and that the sexualization is built in to the form as a whole (all characters are physically perfect and wear costumes that reveal that). But I don’t think Bendis went out of his way to make it so.

Cornelius-

I’m not offended. It just struck me as, well, a really dumb thing to say. Everybody here knows that it’s a scene in a comic book. The fact that the blog is called “comics should be good” kind of gives that away. This is a place where people talk about comics. What’s the point of trying to shut that down by saying, essentially, “it’s only a comic”…? WE KNOW. And we obviously think it’s important anyway.

Secondly: “…didn’t send me to my favorite comic message board to tout my shock-and-outrage bonafides.” That’s not what’s happening here. Mr Cronin asked people what they think. Why do you have to try and undermine an opinion you don’t agree with by implying hysteria on the part of it’s proponents?

And make up your mind. You agree that women in comics are over-sexualized. But somehow you think that when there is violence against them, that isn’t sexualized? That doesn’t make any sense.

I wasn’t trying to point out the obvious; I think it’s out of place to question peoples’ intelligence or play holier than thou on gender issues due to a page in comics. I know you think differently about language and its usage in these forums. Frankly, I think dissing folks for taking stands different than yours is worse than dumb. It’s odious and, in an Internet forum, cowardly. And, yes, I take my comics seriously, but not enough to say something that would get me punched in the mouth if I was facing that person. There are other debates that are worth more froth: A scantily clad superheroine getting beat up ain’t one of ‘em.

Generalization alert: I think in all things, on all sides, there is a general rush to hysteria, and though there was an entreat to converse, there is a lot of sturm ‘n’ drang over this issue, and I’ve made it clear that I think that there is rampant sexualization in comics, but this scene didn’t strike me as the scene from which to launch the counterinsurgency. I’m sure now I’m a misogynist to some. Woe is me.

What is most disturbing is when people say a writer shouldn’t or can’t write a story because it will seen as such-and-such is silly and a little scary.

Cornelius:

Do you realise you’re spousing a double standard? It’s okay for you to sauggest that the people you don’t agree with a hysterics, running to the internet to “tout [their] shock-and-outrage bonafides.” But it’s not okay for me to say that stating the obvious is dumb.

At least I’m being straight up and honest about my opinion, instead of trying to trivialise the issue with that “it’s only a comic” crap.

But then, this quote here says an awful lot about your standpoint: “There are other debates that are worth more froth: A scantily clad superheroine getting beat up ain’t one of ‘em.”

Well, you know, depictions of scantily clad women getting “beat up”, whether they happen to be a superheroine or not, are something most people would consider worth debating. I’m surprised you find violence against women so trivial.

sorry, for clarity, that should say “espousing a double standard”

That “Anonymous” was me, by the way…

Cornelius, here’s a couple of things: you say you “took it in the context of the story he is trying to tell and the set-up he has to work with”.

And one of the points I was tring to make is that there is no set-up Bendis “has to work with”, and he is in fact the author of the story’s context. What is so onerous about this “set-up”, anyway, that we should applaud Bendis for managing to write a story in it?

Another thing: I do think Bendis went out of his way to sexualize the violence in this scene, if only because comics don’t write themselves. You say you did find it disturbing, but you leave out the little matter of why you found it so…was it just because a superhero got bloody? Over in Invincible heroes get bloody as hell, and no one bats an eye, and according to you they’re every bit as sexualized by their idealized physical forms as Tigra is.

So…difference?

If you don’t see a difference, well…I don’t really care if you do or not, so have fun with that: I’m not sure if you were accusing me of running to my favorite comic message board to “tout my shock-and-outrage bonafides”, but if you were then perhaps you have dissed me, and not the other way around. “Odious”, “cowardly”…these are some fairly inflammatory words, and I daresay the average person might well expect a punch in the mouth if they flung them in another average person’s face in real life. “Increasingly harsh tone of the debate”…brother, you ain’t kidding. I see sexualized violence in a scene in a comic book, and all of a sudden I’m a counterinsurgent generating all kinds of sturm and drang, am I?

I think not.

Plok, I think it was me he was calling a coward, and implying that he wanted to punch in the mouth.

Which is funny, since I post under my full real name, with a link to my livejournal, where anyone can find out everything they need to find me in the real world if they want.

While he’s posting under the name “Cornelius Savage”. Which I strongly doubt is his real name. While throwing around just as many insults as me, just in a more mealy-mouthed way, and with less to back them up.

Our friend has a funny take on reality, I must say.

Cornelius Savage

November 10, 2007 at 6:15 pm

Actually, I wasn’t saying I wanted to punch anyone in the mouth. I have seen (odious and cowardly) language by folks that would merit that on this site. Part of the online game, I guess. I wasn’t calling anyone cowardly, but noting that if you call people names (retard, dumb, stupid, mealymouthed, etc.) online you wouldn’t use in real life, it ain’t exactly the bravest thing one can do, now, is it? It is kinda funny y’all think that both of you were at the end of that (non)threat. Egos, boys. Egos. Check ‘em.

“Well, you know, depictions of scantily clad women getting “beat up”, whether they happen to be a superheroine or not, are something most people would consider worth debating. I’m surprised you find violence against women so trivial.”

See? There is the cheap shot. Violence against women is repugnant, but in a comic book I don’t weigh it the same as in real life, nor do I believe that works of (even dubious) art should be created around fears that some fringe personality who may see it and get turned on or act it out. Sorry. It is a story, and it is not a kid’s comic. Violence is part of the shtick. And the scene was done in a way where the morality of the act was not in question: It was evil. There were no blurring lines or shades of grey. The act committed was bad. Very bad.

My funny take on reality, I guess, is that I know it when I see it, and a couple pages in New Avengers #35 aren’t reality.

Thanks for the personality analysis, too. Glad to see someone out there is thinking of me. A lot.

“Glad to see someone out there is thinking of me. A lot.”

WHO needs to check their ego? I’m killing time at work.

See, this is what gets me- I’m not using language I wouldn’t use to somebody’s face. I speak exactly like this to my friends. Actually, I swear a lot in real life too. And I haven’t been punched in the mouth since I was in school, a long time ago.

It’s funny how the only people who really get upset about my turn of phrase are those people who have trouble building a decent argument. For example, you still haven’t dealt with how you can say that the scene isn’t sexualised, when you also said that all comics are. As I said, that makes no sense.

But I suppose it’s easier to get all huffy because I wasn’t nice to you.

And you know, while you may find it “scary” that people might feel justified in suggesting that certain artistic choices are questionable (I mean, seriously- has anybody suggested that this comic should be banned or anything like that? Or are they suggesting that it’s a bad comic that carries nasty connotations?), I personally find it irritating that you think you can tell people that they’re wrong to have an opinion.

HEY GARBUT! MAYBE IT’S TIME FOR HOTDOGS AFTER ALL!

Also: ” I wasn’t calling anyone cowardly, but noting that if you call people names (retard, dumb, stupid, mealymouthed, etc.)”

All words I’ve used in the past week on this site- I apologised for retard by the way, suggesting “idiot as a replacement-

” online you wouldn’t use in real life, it ain’t exactly the bravest thing one can do, now, is it? ”

And how is that supposed to be interpretted, other than as calling me a coward?

See, now that’s cowardice. Not having the courage to stick by your own words. It’s also- *gasp*- mealy mouthed.

Cornelius Savage

November 10, 2007 at 6:51 pm

OK, once again … and slowly … I don’t think the scene was sexualized beyond anything that doesn’t occur in comics books all the time. I just looked at it again, and it’s a violent scene, but it’s not overly sexual.

And I never said it’s wrong to have an opinion (another cheap tact to take), but that the tone was becoming unnecessarily harsh.

Anyway, enjoy work.

Cornelius Savage

November 10, 2007 at 7:01 pm

And how is that supposed to be interpretted, other than as calling me a coward?

I don’t give a damn how you interpret it at this point. Really, it’s not a concern. Thanks for asking, though.

Cheers.

“I don’t think the scene was sexualized beyond anything that doesn’t occur in comics books all the time.”

Thank you. See, is it really that hard to say something that actually makes ense?

And yeah, I think I’d probably agree with you about that. Where we differ, is whether that’s something to worry about or not. You clearly think it isn’t.

Personally, this kind of thing is what stops me buying “mainstream” superhero comics. I like superhero stories. I even like crossovers, and I don’t mind a bit of continuity, as long as it isn’t done in such a way as to exclude new readers. What I don’t like is feeling like I’m reading S&M porn. Which is how I felt reading the torure of spoiler, and parts of infinite crisis, as well as a lot of other corporate owned super hero comics over the last few years.

And I don’t buy into the “it’s only a comic” way of thinking, because it isn’t as simple as that; this is about what we want our superhero comics to be.

Is this what you want superhero comics to be? If not, why don’t you think it’s worth bothering about? And if so, why is it okay for superhero comics to be so sexualised? It’s not an inherent element of the superhero concept, and it has a drastic effect on the size of the audience they can be marketed towards. Is that really worth it, just to see Tigra’s cleavage as she gets punched in the face?

NO, Cornelius. I did NOT think I was at the end of that (non) threat, you are QUITE WRONG about that, please re-read my comment to see what I was actually saying.

Check my ego. Pfeh.

Cornelius Savage

November 11, 2007 at 8:38 am

my apologies then, plok.

I see sexualized violence in a scene in a comic book, and all of a sudden I’m a counterinsurgent generating all kinds of sturm and drang, am I?

No, just frothing over a trivial item and launching into people who feel differently. Pfeh. I reread the scene again and still think it was disturbing, but putting anyone in a position of helplessness gets to me. Again, I thought the blindside and threatening of mother was effective. You can speculate all day where you think it’s going. That’s fine. I’ll wait and see. Pfeh.

NO, Cornelius, I am NOT frothing, I am NOT launching into people who feel differently, you are QUITE WRONG about that, please re-read ALL my comments to see what I actually said in them.

And, you know what else?

The tone of this thread was perfectly civil before you showed up, with your protestations of “whoa everybody, take it easy” and your “I don’t want to start a flame war” bullshit. If you didn’t want to start one, why have you only and consistently misrepresented what other people have been saying, and in the most dismissive and insulting terms? It’s pretty clear — I’d call it “woefully transparent”, actually — that you haven’t got the wherewithal to answer anybody’s questions or comments, the only arrows in your quiver seeming to be “I don’t like your tone, sir” and “I’ll just pretend I didn’t hear that”. Wow, and do you ever bristle at other people’s intolerance! Even if you have to make it up yourself.

I’m through feeding you, TROLL.

Cornelius Savage

November 11, 2007 at 6:28 pm

Man, I’ve written more than a few lines about my answer to the question. Maybe they weren’t to your liking; as anonymous you made that quite clear. Maybe my meaning wasn’t clear. Either way, I got something wrong from one of your posts, got jumped on for it and apologized. What else do you want?

yeah, that’s right, cornelius. You haven’t done anything to provoke irritation in others. Like, you know, calling people cowardly, hysterical, “frothing”… talking about punching people in the mouth…

(What’s that? You didn’t say you wanted to punch anyone? No, no you didn’t. But you implied it- otherwise, why mention it?)

No, Cornelius, you’ve been perfectly civil in the face of all these crazy people.

…On Bizarro world…

Cornelius Savage

November 12, 2007 at 7:07 am

I made two posts, neither of which were trying to provoke anything. After you and plok jumped in (because y’all didn’t like my take on the scene), I responded in kind. I apologized for my misread of plok’s post. That’s it.

You jumped in on me not addressing my point, but taking the piss out of one line. Maybe you should turn your laser-sharp perceptions of what people post and turn it on your content.

Bullshit bullshit bullshit.

Bullshit apology, too. Who apologizes using the words “frothing”, “trivial”, and “pfeh”? Who apologizes using the word “pfeh” TWICE?

I know, I said I wouldn’t feed him…but why should David have to rebut his claim about the apology? After all, it’s me that had to suffer through its PAINFULLY obvious insincerity.

Kid, who in the hell do you think you’re fooling with all this?

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