I know I rub people the wrong way around here, but I’m always up for a sensible conversation.

I expect you’ve noticed that most of the time when I get into debates/slanging matches with people here it’s over precisely that- people dismissing the feminist (or left-wing, or whatever) point of view for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual subject up for discussion.

That said I know I can be pretty dismissive myself when I’m annoyed about something, so it’s all swings and roundabouts I suppose.

I just don’t like dismissive arguments period, honestly. Argue the point all you want – that’s cool, but do that, don’t say, “I’m not going to argue the point!” If you really feel that way, just skip the argument entirely, then.

I feel I have take issue with the comments about people “looking to be offended” by percieved sexism, or the idea that caring about this stuff is “trendy”. Some of us just happen to be a bit more politically aware, and more likely to interpret everything we read in a political context. The idea that sexism can be found “even when it isn’t there” doesn’t really hold water for me, because sexism is an inescapable part of our culture. If it can be found, it’s there. Whether it’s intentional is a different argument.

Brian, my comment was directed at the people Rohan was debating, and I was under the impression Rohan was debating everyone, not just you. My comments weren’t Cronin-exclusive.

Also yay!

However, when I thought about it a bit more, I conceded that even though I still think that, and haven’t been swayed, I should probably bow to your superior wisdom of comics history and give you the benefit of the doubt. I still don’t agree, but that’s why, by the time I reflected on it a bit, I’d toned the second post down. But now I’m just getting snarky, because, well, you were too, dude. I was attacking the argument, but you seemed to take it personally.

Yay!

On the other hand, the post is titled (however tongue-in-cheekily)”THE Right Way to Kill Women,” so maybe the confusion is warranted.

Yeah, I can definitely understand some initial confusion by my misuse of the article “the.”

I don’t see how this isn’t a case of a female character being used offhandedly as a bearer of “pure” energy, even if it was handled subtly or well. Comics dealing in mystic stuff do this all the time (Dagger always comes to mind as a specific example), although I believe I see it as being more endemic because I play a lot of video games. In video games, it’s frequently the default mode to give the female playable characters some sort of pure/holy/support/healing powers and call it a day, even if she’s supposed to be some sort of warrior type.

Yes, comics do depict Superman and Captain America as very pure, but their purity is rarely used as a weapon or a way to resolve a storyline. Their purity is usually portrayed as a function of of amazing ethical fortitude. Nor did I say that spiritual purity was an exclusively female treat (it’s often ascribed to children in comics, too, particularly Captain Marvel).
I do think you’re likely to see it crop up with female characters who aren’t going to be around very long, or who are recently created.

I did state that it was often ascribed to female characters offhandedly, probably because it seems to “fit” better there. There are depictions of male characters using spiritual purity as a weapon in comics, but I find there’s a certain discomfort to those scenes. It may just be social expectations, or squeamishness on the part of the writers, I dunno.

@T: Cheers. Looking at it with fresh eyes today, I can see why Cronin might think I was knocking him specifically, but yeah, if either of us had a problem with him, we probably wouldn’t be reading this blog.

But on the other hand, some of your comments here betray your unawareness, because sometimes…definitely not every instance it’s brought up…but many times the sexism is real, even if unintentional. And it’s gross and stupid and reveals more than I ever wanted to know about the author and about publisher policy.

People (ok, not people…bloggers) are being a touch alarmist about it nowadays (and greatly over-using the word “creepy”), but if it ever were to help bring a change, well, maybe I’ll just read around these posts until then.

It’s this whole culture of people who love to be offended by things that bothers me, where certain percieved offences become particularly trendy, and people are looking for, say, sexism in comics (even in instances where it might not actually appear, and at the extent of limiting storytelling options and sanatising fictional genres about spandex-clad people fighting each other) because it’s the cause celebre.

If anything, Cronin’s trying to alleviate that by saying, ‘well, here’s a death you surely can’t be offended by’, but I just think the fact that he has to do that is silly. It is, IMO, a silly discussion. My problem, if you could call it that, is with the issue, not with the poster.

Yes, because if there’s one thing Cronin’s known for, it’s “sounding cool.”

However, when I thought about it a bit more, I conceded that even though I still think that, and haven’t been swayed, I should probably bow to your superior wisdom of comics history and give you the benefit of the doubt. I still don’t agree, but that’s why, by the time I reflected on it a bit, I’d toned the second post down. But now I’m just getting snarky, because, well, you were too, dude. I was attacking the argument, but you seemed to take it personally.

Villains going out with a whimper: how about everybody killed by Scourge in the ’80s? Weren’t many shot in the back?

I’m surprised when people take “a” or “an” to mean “the.” Clearly, Brian is presenting an example, not a conclusion. On the other hand, the post is titled (however tongue-in-cheekily)”THE Right Way to Kill Women,” so maybe the confusion is warranted.

Thinking back, I don’t think this discussion could have been had before the late-’90s. Most examples of gratuitous death to and torture of female characters in super-hero comics come from the ’90s on. (“Killing Joke” being an exception, and I’ll throw in “The Longbow Hunters” because I remember how shocking it was when Black Canary was tortured and depowered. Unlike today, whjen such occurances are more common)

Whenever Watchmen is mentioned, I think it does not fit the discussion. Not just because it is in a different league than regular Marvel, DC, or Image super-hero comics, but because it was written as a self-contained novel. It was not part of a trend (or perceived trend, for those who do not agree that extreme and degrading violence towards women in super-hero comics is a disturbing pattern becoming more and more accepted), it did not wreck characters that would be used in an ongoing super-hero universe, and it was a story with a rich thematic core.

By the by, this does sound like a pretty cool death scene, but I find it distinctly gendered. It plays off the idea of Kor-El having inherent spiritual purity, a trait that superhero comics and other schlocky types of entertainment are quick to ascribe to female characters just offhand.

I don’t buy that.

That same trait has been ascribed to, among other male heroes, both Superman AND Captain America.

And it’s not like they it was all, “Ko-Rel, you’re so pure!” it was just that it was a jolt from non-tainted Nova Force combined with her last words to Rider (“This is not you!”) that gave Nova’s mind the chance to break free from the Phalanx infection, thereby saving the Worldmind.

I mean, killing off main characters used to be pretty much unheard-of. One-shot characters frequently died (this is Marvel I’m talking about), if they were villains USUALLY (!) in some last-minute see-the-light kind of heroic sacrifice for the one-offs, or by hubris if they were a bit more hardcore/established than that. Established supporting characters died infrequently (was going to say “rarely”, but that’s really not true after Capt. Stacy gets gone), often after getting put through the wringer but rarely like a punk — I guess Gwen Stacy’s a major counter-example there.

Examples of actual “heroes” just going out with a whimper are just not springing to my mind, though. Even Thunderbird gets a minor redemptive moment in X-Men #94, and he was born to lose.

I don’t know. Maybe I’m overlooking the obvious.

Post-Disassembled, it seems no one gets to go out with anything except a whimper, though.

I don’t know if I can name ten Marvel villains who’ve gone out like that.

Of course, I missed the Nineties, so who knows?