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I want this reveal and Superboy Prime PUNCH! to duke it out...somewhere far away from me.

I don't know what the OMD reveal is, but I do think the Superboy Punch has gotten a somewhat unnecesary bad rap. DC had a bunch of weird continuity holes that needed fixing, and as far as that kind of comic book logic goes, the punches got the job done. Not a great idea, but I always looked at it as a "Well, that's been fixed. Let's not think too much on how it was fixed," sort of thing.

Haven't read OMD, but I wouldn't mind the spoiler. As a compromise, can someone tell me if it's as bad as the Clone Saga?

dumbEST idea is strictly reserved for DC and any of its myriad of continuity fuck-ups over the years, the most recent being Superboy reality-punching.

the spider-man idea is not quite as bad as dc's snafus. hell, it's not even as bad as the hawkman fiasco or the legion screw-ups.

speaking of the Superboy Time Punch... doesn't look so bad now, does it? at least the story of IC itself was entertaining, even if the reasoning behind it was absurd. ODM took THREE double-sized chapters to get to its point, and it's somehow both underwhelming dull and absurdly corny.

Superboy Punch! is grandly, wonderfully, could-only-happen-in-superhero-comics stupid.

This OMD thing just seems a bit tawdry

At least the Clone Saga won't get so much hate anymore. I've long accepted that I'm probably in the minority that it was a fairly entertaining, underrated storyline in Spidey's history (even WITH the misfire that was the "Ben's the Original" revelation), but at least now I can say..."at least it wasn't ONE MORE DAY."

Congratulations, Joey - you couldn't have restored Bob Harras' reputation any better if you tried.

Lol, the question is about Spider-Man's OMD & everybody turns around Superboy Punch, hehe. Funny where a subject can drive you.

DumbEST, like every Spider-Man story since the Clone Saga & its precursors 'coz you know Spidey started drawning since Mc Farlane & Michelinie departure & Marvel struggle to keep excitment.
Look at Venom at his debuts & the mess it is now.
Attacking the Marriage was the next step by that logic.

It's just sad, really.

I'm feeling sorta left out here. Where can I go to get spoilers?

Count me in on the "spoilers for Spider-Man OMD" crowd.

(Hey, I'd rather be disappointed for free than buy the comic and be disappointed. Or waste precious bandwidth downloading it)

Dumb idea. Really, this all seems like WAY too much to save Aunt May. In reality, the woman must be what, 80-90? She's only got a few years left...if Spidey gives up what he's been asked to...it just seems really absurd and unrealistic (i know, it's a comic, but i can only suspend my disbelief SO much).

I have a feeling the REAL writing credit should have gone to Quesada.

"DC had a bunch of weird continuity holes that needed fixing, and as far as that kind of comic book logic goes, the punches got the job done. Not a great idea, but I always looked at it as a “Well, that’s been fixed. Let’s not think too much on how it was fixed,” sort of thing. "

I think we already had that fix, it was called Hypertime and it worked rather well.

Oh and it was dumb dee dumb dumb.

Worse than Maximum Carnage, the Clone Saga, and the Invader Zim suit story all combined.

Mitch Albom should never ever write for Spider-Man again, I don't care what Oprah's Book Club says!

Haven't read it yet, but if it's as dumb as what Joey Q did to the blind man that Matt Murdock saved (in the process, getting his powers to become Daredevil) in DAREDEVIL: FATHER...

Actually, that one wasn't dumb. It was offensive and exploitative. My bad.

I don't reas SM anyway, so I had no qualms about reading the spoiler on the CBR forums. Now that I've read it...

Nice job crapping on 20 years of storytelling.

Really, though, who amoong us actually wants to see the heroes progress & develop? We don't want that. No, we want the same old stale formula year after year.

Joe Q has basically said "As long as nothing ever changes, you can write anything you want. If you DO change something, I'll 'fix' it."

With this in mind, why don't we reset everyone's personalities to 1965? Captain America will brood over Bucky's death, Johnny Storm will toss firecrackers in Thing's pants, and Beast will be a nerdy bookworm hanging out at a pretentious coffee & poerty lounge.

So... While it's not as extreme & bad as the Superb... Young Superman punch, it's DANG HORRIBLE. I can't call it "as bad as" because it only effects the SM line, not everything.

What is really galling is that there's no need for all this bollocks in OMD. Dan Slott's story twist in Avengers : The Initiative #7 (which I won't spoil for anyone who hasn't read it) is a much more interesting and appealing way of putting the Unmasking Genie back in the box.

And as for the marriage stopping writers from telling the stories they want to, the solution to that is stricter editors and less-lazy writers. Writers - use Peter and MJ's marriage as a springboard to tell Spidey tales that you couldn't do with a single Peter! Editors - if the writers can't do that, get another writer!

The problem is that the events in Initiative #7 wouldn't stand up to even a cursory examination in the Marvel universe, and it was by far the weakest issue of the title yet.

Then again, I don't even remotely enjoy the way Slott writes Spider-Man based off his FCBD one-shot and Initiative #7. He comes across as a competent writer for most other characters, but for some reason the second he starts writing Parker, every panel is drowning in an sea of god-awful expository monologues. If that's what we have to look forward too with brand new day, I can easily continue avoiding the Spider-Man books and not miss out on anything.

I can just about see what JMS and Quesada are going for, in terms of using the OMD situation to metaphorize the question of power and responsibility and increase the stakes (and the risks) in so doing. And by implying that the final choice has quietly been made for all involved by just one of the people who will be affected, they clearly mean to consider the way in which having the power to affect others extends the concept of one's responsibility for them or to them to a de facto exercise of power Mover them.

The problem is the same as the overall problem with the story: the way in which an intimate and very grounded sort of tragedy or problem seems to be impelling all of the characters to take the most hyperbolic and "super" solutions as the best. The means of resolving the tragic event that triggers the story are so out of scale with the scope of the tragedy itself that the characters all end up looking like hysterical idiots rather than real people struggling with a realistic problem. It's a case in which the superhuman stuff is so fanciful and abusrd that it screws up the quieter story of a moral dilemma precisely by looking stupid and fanciful next to it.

It also doesn't help that the solution seems rather left-field, involving a character who has not been a part of any of JMS's prior Spider-Man stories at all. I realize that the solution-character has a more archetypal role, but the sort of ur-story to which the solution-characetr belongs is badly out of place in Spider-Man's stories. That character imports a degree of metaphysical oddity that doesn't work, in the same way that J. Marc DeMatteis's Judas Traveller, a similarly metaphysically-framed character meant to explore questions of morality and responsibility on a grand scale, never quite worked in Spider-Man's milieu of melodramatic realism.

Traveller was not only ruthlessly disposed of by the next creative teams, but was disposed of by stripping him of his metaphysical qualities and making him a mere illusionist with delusions of grandeur. He had to be reduced to the dimensions of Spider-Man's corner of the universe in order to be closed out. That can't happen with the solution-character in OMD, for all sorts of reasons, which makes the problem all the more glaring; the suspicion that the solution-character's actions will at the least become the tacit ground from which Brand New Day springs means that the mismatch of tone will linger for a very long time.

All of this is thematic argument, of course, not meant to take into account the reader-disinvesting power of a potential cosmic reset button for a character built on the idea of lasting developments and relatively realistic consequences. Even if a prce tag is associated with the apparently-hinted reset button, the price will not be a realistic one thanks to the nature of the solution-character. And again, that price's becoming a running plot element in the BND Amazing title will keep the storytelling error in front of the reader irrespective of the quality of the BND arcs asthey invent their own businessand play out their own subthemes, metaphorical treatments and variants of the classic Lee/Ditko formulation, and constellate their own subuniverse of plot points.

jazzbo,

SuperMAN-Prime PUNCH is horrible becasue it's impossible to explain how Jason Todd came back to life without an advanced degree in DC nerdology.

I haven't even read it yet, and I'm confident that "dumbest idea" will end up being the correct answer.

I'll check in later tonight for my official vote.

(Note to Joe Quesada: You can't write. Stop trying.)

I haven't read it yet, but if it's what it's been rumored to be, then yeah it's in contention for dumbest.

Not to belittle your thoughtful, insightful, and well conceived ideas, but...

DANG OMAR!!!! They're comic books, not great literature. If you're a lit ptofessor, more power to ya. If that type of subtext is really there, then I don't give nearly enough credit to the writers. Honestly, though, I'd have to talk to the writers personally to believe they really put that much thought and depth into things. Considering the audience they write to, it just doesn't seem reasonable.

All that aside, you have some interesting points.

Sometimes comics can be great literature. This is not one of those times.

I'm a lit guy, though not yet a professor. I tend to think that there's subtext in most writing whether it's entirely intended or not; plots and themes always connect to bigger issues unless they're so incompetent or surreal as to be totally incomprehensible.

I also think that working out why a plot or theme is incompetent can be as instructive as working out why another plot or theme succeeds.

Oh, and I sort of wanted to see how in-depth I could get without spoiling any but the very vaguest details of the story in question

I think this, although dumb, is not the dumbest, even by Spidey standards. Michilinie's run is definitely the dumbest the book sunk too.

Michelinie's run was on the balance not that dumb, but it did have a few spectacularly dumb moments. I'd call Michelinie's run mediocre more than outright dumb; he certainly never gave us anything as tone-deaf as "Spider-Man's magic powers" or "my dead girlfriend had my archenemy's superhuman fast-aging love children!" (Though "my dead friend-turned-enemy's evil robot copies of my dead parents" was quite stupid, at that.)

Oh, and my own nominee for dumbest "major" Spider-Man story evah would still be "Maximum Clonage."

I admit Jason Todd's rebirth was stupid. But I thought the Superboy punch was fine way to bring the Doom Patrol back into continuity, and explain why no one seemed to remember them recently. I'm not saying the Superboy punches are good, but that they work in a "only in super-hero comics" kind of way that isn't horrible.

I sorta like it.

I mean, it's a moronic plot idea, but really, if they want to get rid of the marriage, NO plot idea is really going to be a GOOD one, ya know?

In fact, this is basically what I've said Quesada SHOULD do - if he wants the marriage gone, just DO it. Don't whine about the marriage. If you want it gone - get rid of it!

This is no dumber than the Scarlet Witch storyline in Avengers, and people have basically forgotten that. People get over stupid stories, and if the end result is something you think is important to make good stories, then go for it.

The only problem I have is the idea of building a four part "storyline" around it. That was extra insulting.

Just do a poorly thought-out one-shot. Not a four-parter that takes seventeen years (or four months, whichever) to come out.

I sorta like it.

I mean, it’s a moronic plot idea, but really, if they want to get rid of the marriage, NO plot idea is really going to be a GOOD one, ya know?

In fact, this is basically what I’ve said Quesada SHOULD do - if he wants the marriage gone, just DO it. Don’t whine about the marriage. If you want it gone - get rid of it!

This is no dumber than the Scarlet Witch storyline in Avengers, and people have basically forgotten that. People get over stupid stories, and if the end result is something you think is important to make good stories, then go for it.

I agree, there is no good way to do it. As long as the result turns out good, people will forget the bad story that bridged the two status quo. Same goes for Aunt May's return post-Heroes Return. Story was dumb as hell, but once it was over, both creators and fan don't revisit the story and just focus on the new status quo and it works out well.

Making a four parter out of it was dumb though, especially if nothing major happens in the first 3 parts. I think maybe they are stalling to get ahead on the Brand New Day stories and get lead time.

I read the first part, but decided to hold out for Brand New Day after noticing the distinct stench of 'The Final Chapter' (the Mackie story that briefly closed out ASM's original numbering years ago, not the Lee/Ditko masterpiece) all over this one.

Of course, if what we think is going to happen does happen, I think I'll skip Brand New Day altogether and just stick with Ultimate Spider-Man, thanks. I can't fault Marvel too much while they're still giving us fun books like that.

Superboy retcon punch is still worse. Though it's on the same level of "No More Mutants" and "Ben Reilly is the real Spiderman".

I'm forced to retract my statement. It is not, in fact, the dumbest idea. But I was grading by a tough rubric: My current champion for all-time dumbest idea is "Peter finds out he's the clone, and when a pregnant Mary Jane runs to comfort him, he backhands her across the room." Seriously, fuck you, Tom DeFalco.

It's still pretty dumb, though.

Brian, as usual, you are too kind.

jazzbo and Cronin have won me over. As long as we never speak of the cause again the resultant status quo might be worth the pain. But, really, what was wrong with Hypertime (in DC)? Does anyone know why they got rid of it?

"But, really, what was wrong with Hypertime (in DC)? Does anyone know why they got rid of it?"

It was an easily grasped concept that led to fun stories, and we can't be having with that.

I don't think even Grant Morrison and Mark Waid would suggest using hypertime for something as big as writing off Spider-Man's marriage.

But yeah, otherwise, hypertime is AWESOME!!

They’re comic books, not great literature.

This kind of sentiment is in direct contradiction to the whole point and name of this blog.

Great literature's not defined by a certain style or medium of writing, as long as it's written to be read. Great literature's not defined by size or style.

I don't care if everyone's interested in the progression of the art form, but I'll never understand the want for regression.

Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers!
Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers! Spoi-lers!

Seriously, can't someone at least post a link to a blog or something where someone spills the whole thing? I don't think I'll be able to make it to a comic shop to rack-skim it for at least a couple of days.
Or, I guess I could check Wikipedia to see if anyone's been conscientious/anal enough to update with the info yet.

The joke answer is "Dan Didio thought it was more complicated and ridiculous than a forgotten character punching the walls of reality." But based on interviews with Waid and Morrison, I think the feeling was that Hypertime didn't get used across the board enough, when it was first introduced, to make it clear exactly what it was and what it could do.

I've read some spoilers for SSM #41, and yeah, it pretty much confirms that the dumb idea will become reality, like we all knew. The only "surprise" is that they don't use the bad guy that apppears in ASM #504, but someone else, who is REALLY a bad guy if there ever was one.

I'm definitely with Cronin and T. I'm really don't like what they're doing, but it's the only legitimate way to do what they want to do without completely undermining the core relationship that readers have supported for 20 years. I think it's also as comic-booky as Superboy-punch.

The only difference I see between this and the return of Aunt May is that no one really cared that Aunt May was back. So once they told a good story with her, the ridiculousness of her return was largely forgotten. A LOT of people care about the end result of this, so they're going to need to be very careful how they handle Brand New Day and the rest of the story.

Just my two cents.

For those who need spoilage:
http://aboutheroes.com/2007/11/sensational-spiderman-41-revie.php

I mean, it’s a moronic plot idea, but really, if they want to get rid of the marriage, NO plot idea is really going to be a GOOD one, ya know?

In fact, this is basically what I’ve said Quesada SHOULD do - if he wants the marriage gone, just DO it. Don’t whine about the marriage. If you want it gone - get rid of it!

This is no dumber than the Scarlet Witch storyline in Avengers, and people have basically forgotten that. People get over stupid stories, and if the end result is something you think is important to make good stories, then go for it.

The only problem I have is the idea of building a four part “storyline” around it. That was extra insulting.

Just do a poorly thought-out one-shot. Not a four-parter that takes seventeen years (or four months, whichever) to come out.

I do agree, except that as Omar mentioned, it looks like Brand New Day is going to be constantly mentioning the effects of One More Day. If they just broke off the marriage and then went on to write single Spidey stories, I'd probably be interested, but all this Jackpot nonsense? No thank you.

Two questions:

1. What happened with the blind guy in "Daredevil: Father" that GarBut mentioned?

2. Did Quesada get Mark Waid's blessing before using the EXACT same premise as an issue of Flash from 10 years ago?

Sean, I only skimmed Father, but I'm pretty sure it turned out that he molested his daughter and she turned into a serial killer because of it.

And if you enjoyed DAREDEVIL: FATHER, may I recommend BLACK CAT: THE EVIL THAT MEN DO as a chaser?!

(@Sean: Dave is correct.)

Someone on this thread mentioned that Joey Q can't write. Whoa boy, can't he ever!

2. Did Quesada get Mark Waid’s blessing before using the EXACT same premise as an issue of Flash from 10 years ago?

Sounds more like the plotline that Geoff Johns did in Flash #200 from a couple of years ago.

I do agree, except that as Omar mentioned, it looks like Brand New Day is going to be constantly mentioning the effects of One More Day. If they just broke off the marriage and then went on to write single Spidey stories, I’d probably be interested, but all this Jackpot nonsense? No thank you.

If that's the case, that really IS dumb then. My guess is that they must be doing that to pacify the pro-marriage crowd by paying it some lip service. Like, if they jettisoned the marriage AND never mentioned it again, maybe they fear they will chase that segment of the audience away for good, so they may be trying to pay the marriage lip service to keep them around, then hope they get so sucked into the new status quo that they won't notice once they stop mentioning the marriage anymore.

I don't know if that's a good idea though

OK, just read the spoilers on One More Day and Daredevil: Father (as I don't read too much Quesada-Marvel, both were news to me).

Wow. Just... wow. What asinine story concepts. Congrats, Joey Q & JMS. Spider-Man couldn't be more broken if you tried. The Clone Saga looks like a Godlen Age compared to this.

...Why is it you never spot typos until after you post?

"Golden Age" is what I meant above.

Sean, I only skimmed Father, but I’m pretty sure it turned out that he molested his daughter and she turned into a serial killer because of it.

Oh, God, I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

Sounds more like the plotline that Geoff Johns did in Flash #200 from a couple of years ago.

I think the Waid comparison is more apt. In the Johns story, Hal erased the world's knowledge of Wally's identity (which I guess will happen to Spidey too), but in the Waid story, the Devil (for all intents and purposes) actually stole Wally's and his wife's love for each other.

Real nitpicky, but has anyone else noticed the hard-on Joe Q has for Mephisto? I'm not a huge fan of his art, so I don't buy a book for the "Quesada" name, but I read his run on DD with Kevin Smith (I'm from Asbury Park, leave me alone) and I've been reading this...because I hate myself apprently.

But back to the point at hand. I read a fair amount of Marvel, and although I know who Mephisto is, I've really only seen him in the aformentioned DD run, and now this. Both books by Quesada. Just food for thought, is all I'm saying.

If they've been following this storyline so far, then they've wasted a LOT more than $4 and 5 minutes. Have mercy. Write out a full synopsis and allow them to skip it, and allow the rest of us to make fun of it.

Civil War/Death of Cap is still dumbest story this CENTURY, CLone Saga is dumbest story EVER, but this whole Ooops Another Day thing is yet another cake made of turds delivered on a Fuck You platter by Joey the Q.

Way to go, pork-vacuum, you managed to make Marvel 100% in a single 18-month period. Not only did Joey the Q ruin *new* Marvel for me, but his recent shit has so tainted Marvel for me that I can't even read the decades of old stuff I had. HAD. I got rid of ALL of it.

Stupid fucking crap.

[quote]This is no dumber than the Scarlet Witch storyline in Avengers, and people have basically forgotten that. People get over stupid stories, and if the end result is something you think is important to make good stories, then go for it.[/quote]

Yeah, uh, no. I didn't forget that. Because that tied into House of M, and No More Mutants, and *right there* when Scarlet Witch messed up with reality, THAT is the moment that the old 616 Marvel Universe stopped and died, and everything since has been a cracker topped with feces.

I feel SO. BAD. That all of those people have to get dumped on because of this story. But hey, when your business depends on what people like, and you say "yeah well I like THIS!" you....you're just being reckless.

But I WANT this to turn out well. We should all want to enjoy it, and complain after we've experienced it and found out we can't.

I'm just gonna vote for "dumb."

If any good stories come -out- of it, that'd be one thing...

But yeah, I've seen dumber.

So, this might sound stupid, but wasn't Hypertime basically just the multiverse? Hypertime came out during my 5 year hiatus from comics (thanks, Heroes Reborn) so I never really saw too much with it. If it was basically just the multiverse, how could that fix continuity errors in the main universe, such as the Doom Patrol thing?

Hypertime was SIMILAR to the multiverse, except it went like this.

Imagine a whole pile of parallel timelines to each other, with slight alterations to each other (like in one timeline, the Doom Patrol was still around), and what would happen is that every so often, the timelines would intersect, and suddenly something that had not existed - DID exist.

That's just the technical jargon. That was just set up so we could go to the main point, which was that this was Waid and Morrison's way of saying, "Every story DID exist - it is just up to the writers to decide if THEY want to use the old story."

By the by, I think Mary Jane becoming a superhero named "Jackpot" is actually far worse of an idea than the marriage being broken up by Mephisto.

Okay, I didn't know about the intersecting part. That makes sense. And seems like an easier way to do it than anything else has been.

Yeah, Hypertime had great potential. Unfortunately, fan reaction was... less than positive (the vocal opinion seemed to be that it would mainly be used as an excuse for writers to not bother doing research), and after a couple of stories in Superboy, Flash and Titans it was quietly forgotten.

Yeah, fans seemed to haaaaaaate it.

I think, for the most part, they just misunderstood it, and probably DID actually think it was what Kelson just said, that it would be used not as a tool to keep a writer from being constrained by continuity, but as an excuse to be lazy.

It didn't help that the first uses of hypertime were, well...pretty bad, to be honest.

The Kingdom was bad and the Superboy crossover with hypertime wasn't much better (although it WAS better).

The wikipedia entry on Hypertime suggests that another reason that Hypertime died is that Grant and Mark went off to work for other publishers. I wouldn't doubt it knowing how disturbingly petty some of the DC/Marvel executives are, but I'm not familiar with the actual timeframe.

I think the concept was just too simple and too all encompassing for most people.
People (and comic fans especially) seem to like everything clearly labeled and neatly put in it's own little box. This is why we have the new multiverse; this happened on Earth 37 this happened on Earth 42 etc...

The uses of which have also been fairly terrible so far... hey lets visit The Red Rain universe this month!

Yeah, Brad, the two main architects of the idea leaving DC probably didn't help much, either, agreed.

I figured out a solution to all these continuity problems. There are only two types of stories: published and not. If it's published, it happened. If not, it didn't.

Was it published? There you go.

But was it published? Okay, then.

No, I know. That one, too.

Sean, I only skimmed Father, but I’m pretty sure it turned out that he molested his daughter and she turned into a serial killer because of it.

What? I need to go look at Father again, then, since I don't even remember the blind guy he saved being MENTIONED, let alone put in the story like that. I mean, the blind guy he saved is Stick. That's a pretty big change.

And for the record, neither dumb nor dumbest. I'd go with "good enough, if that's what you want to do." The premise (kill the marriage) is dumb. Maybe even dumbest. But this particular manner of doing it? Nah, it's fine...

today's comic readers don't relate with peter parker today, a happily married man with a compelling career. Let's make him a 30 year old bachelor that still lives with his 80 year old aunt.

BRILLIANT.

@Brian: I think MJ's superhero handle should be "Jackpot Tiger." That would work MUCH better.

@YoGo: No snark intended here, my friend, but the blind guy was in EVERY issue of the six. And maybe Joey Q designed him to look a bit like Stick, maybe. But no, it was not Stick.

By the by, I think Mary Jane becoming a superhero named “Jackpot” is actually far worse of an idea than the marriage being broken up by Mephisto.

Really? Huh. That sounds cool.

..... what?

Worse than Tony Stark being Kang's agent, then turned into a teenager?

Having revisited so many great comics fiascos over the course of researching my book, I can honestly say: This one is right up there. I mean, this one is seriously "Clone Saga Part Deux", and for the same reason. "Spider-Man is getting too old, let's 'turn back the clock' to when he was a swinging single college student." The problem is, Marvel has sold over five hundred issues of comics to their audience on the implicit promise that Continuity Matters. They have said, time and time again, "You must not miss this issue! This issue features huge developments in the life of Peter Parker, and if you miss it, you'll regret it for the rest of your life!" Rewinding the clock to 1970 means that Marvel has their fans' money, and the fans don't have 27 years of story developments that they paid to not miss. That's a recipe for boiling resentment.

Again, I say to anyone who says, "Continuity doesn't matter!", it's not a matter of continuity. It's a matter of honesty. Bob Haney accidentally invented Wonder Girl because he thought that those stories were about her sidekick instead of being flashbacks; it confused a lot of fans, but it didn't anger them, because they knew Bob Haney really didn't care about continuity. Whereas Quesada and company care deeply about continuity when it's a useful sales tool, but don't care about it at all when it makes their job difficult. And that's what ticks fans off.

Simply abysmal.

(That being said, does anyone smell the desperation in Mephisto's use as a character? Seems pretty obvious to this true believer that JMS wanted to use Loki (considering the whole favor dangiling out there thang) but editorial said,
"Uh, yeah, y'see, we let you do a lot of dumb stuff (see: a certain Ms. Gwen Stacy), but Loki's kinda' dead right now (or at least takin' a long nap) & his appearance here would greatly contradict the current soryline in our (rather tepid) relaunch of that crazy Thunder God Thor, so can ya' just use this devil guy or something? He's has all sorts of cool magic trix too, y'know?")
'Nuff said.

John: well said, both points. I agree wholeheartedly.

By the by, I think Mary Jane becoming a superhero named “Jackpot” is actually far worse of an idea than the marriage being broken up by Mephisto.

Thank God I'm not the only one who feels that way.

But either way, Spider-Man's book is being ruined. He makes a deal with Mephisto, giving up his marriage to save the life of May "good riddance" Parker?!? Ouch.

I haven't read part 3 but I will pick it up eventually.

I agree that the story has been lacking so far, I don't understand why Spider-man can't accept people dying and would go to such extremes. He was portrayed in the same way in the Death of Captain America series where he punches Wolverine for some reason (will that bring back Captain America?).

You know, I've been afraid this was going to happen since OMD was launched. "Today's kids can't relate to Spider-Man". OH NOEZ!!!!1 TEH KIDZ HAF 2 B ABLE 2 PRETEND THEY IZ SPYDR-MANZ!!!!11 Freaking insane. Can the kids relate to Captain America, who's (almost definitely) older than their grandparents? Can they relate to Luke Cage? Don't we already have a version of Spider-Man that's still in high school? Doesn't USM sell very well? Can't Joe Q leave it alone? I swear, I'd pay untold amounts of money to see Quesada and Didio in a bareknuckles gypsy boxing match to the pain (can I get a hollaback from Princess Bride fans?).

Having read the spoilers, but not the issue, I can't help but hope that Spider-man becomes Ghost Rider after all this is done. Really, that would be the more logical outcome.

Never realized exactly how many dumb ideas ran in Spider-Man until this article. Do have to say this latest one is rather dumb.....but the dumbest Spider-Man Idea I can recall was Aunt May's first "death" or maybe it was her "almost" marriage to Doctor Octupus.

As for as the ofeten mentioned Super-Punch....what did that fix "exactly" Create 52 worlds..which D.C is now in the process of destroying again? That's pretty dumb.

Dumbest idea ever.....gotta go with that Iron Man pawn of Kang storyline which was responsible for me dropping the Avengers for years.....Onslaught aftermath didn't help much either.

Not sure if I really want to close with this.....but I liked Daredevil Father. (sorry)

often-there spelled right. just didn't want someone to blame my spelling goof on the fact I liked "Father"

Forgot something else..... about this "Secret Invasion" crap Marvel is shoving down our throat now. Didn't they do this once before? It was called Rom. And it was a lot better twenty years ago.

I don't really like the idea. The "gods" or at least "god-like" figures in the Marvel Universe are always used so poorly. Their either incompetant and easily distracted (like the gods in Terry Pratchett's Discworld) or completely absent. If you want to make them where they don't mess things up, then make the not care about the planet or whatever.

How much better is that Astro City #0 where half the planet is dead and the hangman gives people a chance to forget their loved ones and feel no pain or to suffer from their loss... and they all choose to remember their loved ones. Easily the greatest dealing with death in comic's history.

Getting rid of Wally and family just so they could age Bart Allen and then kill him off

the blind guy was in EVERY issue of the six. And maybe Joey Q designed him to look a bit like Stick, maybe. But no, it was not Stick.

Yeah, I went and looked after I posted that last night, and sure enough, that was the payoff. Wow. No wonder I blocked it out of my mind.

And I just meant that "it's already established in continuity that Stick is the guy Matt saved," not that that's what Father was necessarily trying to do.

does anyone smell the desperation in Mephisto’s use as a character? Seems pretty obvious to this true believer that JMS wanted to use Loki (considering the whole favor dangling out there thang) but editorial said, "Uh, yeah, y’see, we let you do a lot of dumb stuff (see: a certain Ms. Gwen Stacy), but Loki’s kinda’ dead right now (or at least takin’ a long nap) & his appearance here would greatly contradict the current soryline in our (rather tepid) relaunch of that crazy Thunder God Thor, so can ya’ just use this devil guy or something? He’s has all sorts of cool magic trix too, y’know?")

Since JMS is writing their (rather good) relaunch of that crazy Thunder God Thor, probably not, no. Would have been a nice tie-in to the early part of his run, though...

I've been reading Daredevil for the better part of three decades and I don't recall anybody ever stating the blind guy that Matt saved as a child was Stick. If this is true could somebody please give me an issue # so I can check it out? Also interested in the issue # of Amazing Spider-Man where Peter backhands M.J while she's pregnant...can't believe he got away with that. I mean Henry Pym smacks his wife once and he's black-balled for life..and he didn't have super powers..and Jan wasn't pregnant. Not liking Spidey very much right now. Makes me think he will trade the love of his life for a woman who will still die in two to three years.

Jerk.

It was never Stick that Matt saved. Stick and Matt have both repeatedly stated that Stick only met Matt out after the accident to train him.

Dumbest idea ever…..gotta go with that Iron Man pawn of Kang storyline which was responsible for me dropping the Avengers for years…..Onslaught aftermath didn’t help much either.
Onslaught aftermath gave us the first DeadPool ongoing and Thunderbolts, which were very good things.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

The guy which Matt saved wasn't Stick. Really, why Stick would need to have his life saved from a truck by a 12 year old boy?

Oh, this is just...this isn't just dumb, this is a whole new level of comic idiocy. This is so idiotic in so many ways that I'm having trouble even figuring out where to start detailing why.

It's even dumber from the character's point of view. May Parker would NOT want to be saved, not like that. She would want Peter and Mary Jane to be happy and live their lives; she's had a good run, and it's time for her to be with Ben now.

The guy which Matt saved wasn’t Stick. Really, why Stick would need to have his life saved from a truck by a 12 year old boy?

He didn't need to - he was trying to draw out Matt Murdock (for whatever reason) and acting helpless was a part of that. I don't know which particular issue it was in, but I believe it was in the Man Without Fear miniseries...

There is a lot about this entire thing that's ... so freaking stupid. JMS's writing is making it ... not trash (at least the touch that both MJ and Spidey were talked to) but ... god damn ... I like Spidey married. It works, if writers want it to work.

Spidey not married is whinny. So whinny. And I LOVE Spider-Man. He was my in character and as someone who owns over a million comics he holds a big place in my heart.

But the big shame here? Spider-Man and MJ have been married for 20 years now. 20. Married in June 1987, here we are 20 years later and now the marriage has got to go. Romance in Spider-Man stories will go as well... It will feel forced if he dates any other woman, just like it did in the 90's when MJ was believed dead. The difference here that we are supposed to like is that MJ has a say as well. More organic storytelling ... but that doesn't make it acceptable or good.

(Funny the story that breaks them up is as contrived as the idea to get them married...)

Also what this means is ... guess what, kids, fans, are used to Spidey married. And if they aren't, they have Ultimate Spider-Man. And so many good stories have been told with them married. The Death of Kraven wouldn't have been near as tramatic and sad if they hadn't been married. The kidnapping of MJ by Jonathan Caeser. JM Demattis entire Spectacular Spider-Man run (well except a Doc Ock christmas). Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #50. Spirts of the Earth. Spider-Man/Red Sonja (has been fun, not great). To make a more complete list I'd need to go back issue digging but the point is there are lots of great character moments and arcs that have happened with them married. Not married, Spidey was ... well whinny and wishy washy after about Amazing #150. Gwen dead ... who else was Peter going to be with?

Anyway, this will scar Spidey for years. Not as a character in action but that for the book to approach relationships will always create a comparison ... until every fan whose read the book before OMD is dead. (Not trying to be morbid.)

And I don't feel entitled ... it just seems so forced and pointless. An example of older fans wanting to fix things to the way they like. Am I any different? Probably not, except I'm suggesting fix the problems ... by writing better. Not a "Crisis" solution, which this is. This is the first time, that I can remember (except the Sentry which was a retcon) where if Spidey, MJ, and the world doesn't remember their marriage is just like ... well the world no longer remembers that Wonder Woman didn't come to the man's world till after Legends, or that Superman wasn't in WW2. This is DC style corrections, that Joe Q has said over and over again ... he doesn't like.

My only hope ... and this is slim is Joe Q has messed with fan expectations before. This could be a giant mislead.
Let's hope.

Veidt.

BTB, IF YOU LIKE SPIDER-MAN AT ALL, BUY SPIDER-MAN:THE ICON. GREAT BOOK!!!!

One thought I will add, if the marriage goes ... I can stil enjoy it in Spider-Girl and the newspaper strip. Good stuff both of those. (BTB, anyone who hasn't read the strip e-mail me at vdf1@hotmail.com and I'll gladly talk with you about it.)

Last, last thought ... Spider-Man is the every man, who experiences problems, who many kids want to grow up to be, and being married makes that more realistic in many respects. (And don't argue the supermodel thing to me ... all the Marvel women look like supermodels, and MJ hasn't modeled since Web of Spider-Man 49?)

Anyway, I've ranted enough.

Veidt

Daredevil:Man Without Fear issue #1 page #10, panel one...Stick "watches"over a young Matt working out in the gym....therefore does not need to draw Matt out, because he already knows where to find him.

Panles #2-4 on the same page show the accident in which Matt lost his sight and the man Matt saves is obviously not Stick.

Later in the same book Stick introduces himself to Matt and never mentions being the man in question (even if it was a disguise...which Stick wouldn't have to do....he already knew Matt was who he was looking for before the accident....well he noticed him anyway....Matt becoming blind caused Stick to enteract with him.)

Back to Spider-Man.....gotta agree with what Marc said. May WOULD NOT want Peter and M.J to give up their life together to save hers and would proably sell her soul to the devil to get the chance to come back and kick them both in the butt if they did!

As for the Onslaught comment I made earlier I was refering more to how Frankilin Richards "fixed" Tony Stark.

I just read the spoiler - I couldn't stop laughing, I almost shot orange juice out of my nose!

Superboy prime punch was a very dumb (and silly) idea done with possibly good intentions.

OMD is a very dumb (and silly) idea but what makes it take the cake is that its done for the stupidest possible reasons.

That's what makes it so bad, its not how they're doing it, its what they're doing that's DUMB!

Stick “watches”over a young Matt working out in the gym...therefore does not need to draw Matt out, because he already knows where to find him.

I meant "draw him out" as in "get him to act heroic, thus starting him on the path Stick intended" rather than "find him." But I don't know where I got the idea that they were the same blind guy, then...

I also think that the idea itself isn't bad, but the motivation is unbearable.

As far as ideas go, Norman/Gwen/Rapid-aged super-powered twins was a much worse idea.

I think they definitely haven't thought things through. Joe Q is always adamant that taking away the marriage will make Peter more interesting, but Joe Q is not a writer and I would like him to explain how he's going to push the character forward or break any nw ground by first taking him backwards.

They shouldn't have had him reveal his secret identity, although I suppose they'll undo that now too. They shouldn't have had Wanda say "no more mutants", because the X-books are poorer for it (except X-Factor).

I agree with everyone who has pointed out that those who want an unmarried Peter can read Ultimate Spider-Man. Why doesn't Joe read that instead? It's a depressng exmple of an editor fulfilling his own desires instead of those of the readers. Has he really had a lot of mail from people complaining about the wedding? I doubt it. In fact, my understanding is that he's already received a lot of flack from fans over his views on the marriage. This move will not bring in any new readers. It won't bring in people who've never read comics because they won't know or care. It won't bring in comic readers who've never read Spider-Man because they won't care. It won't bring back old Spidey fans who've dropped the book, because I doubt they dropped it because of the wedding. So that leaves your current readers. At best you'll keep them, at worst you'll drive them away. What's it all for Mr Quesada?

That should be "new" and "example".

I must say I liked his art in the Doctor Strange issue though.

[...] [Review] Graeme McMillan on J. Michael Straczynski, Joe Quesada and Danny Miki’s Sensational Spider-Man #41. (Above: Wait, it gets even dumber. Panel detail from the comic, ©2007 Marvel Characters, Inc.) [...]

There is dumb and there is dumbest and then there is Silver Age Superman.

Spider-Man has been around longer today than Superman had been in the Silver Age, but Spidey has the baggage of trying to keep a consistent continuity throughout. If they are trying to wipe the slate clean, I say good for them.

I have no idea what the spoiler is and don't really care. I gave up on Spider-Man comics decades ago.

Heres´s a good idea for SPIDER-MAN IV, the movie. Aunt May dies and Mephisto offers to save her, in return for wiping out the last 3 movies out of movie continuity.
Then, a wide eyed 13 year old movie fan will ask "Why?", then Quesada will say "Sorry kiddo, we need to renew our audience, you´re obsolete!"