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I’m not convinced by Augie’s piece either. There were certainly controversial decisions mentioned, and some eventually even proved themselves right decisions (while some did not). None however, was as insulting and inherently stupid as One More Day. As a result, I don’t remember any one of them kicking up this big of a storm.

“Heroes Reborn” was far greater.

Honestly, the only comic controversy I can think of that’s on level with this one is “Emerald Twilight.”

While I think Augie’s iece did not go the right angle in trying to convince the reader that 2000-1 was a bigger controversial year, he does a good job at pointing out the cyclical nature of these things.

The best anaolgy I can think of is a reverse whirlpool. It starts in the middle, small. Then every controversy spirals bigger and bigger until we’re now at OMD/BND.

I agree with J. Paul- Augie gets his point about the cycle of controversy across, even if the magnitude is not quite the same.

As for controversies as big as OMD/BND…

Identity Crisis #2. I don’t remember if it was as big, but I think rape in the DCU is a whole lot worse than this Spider-Man nonsense. Personally, I don’t care much about the Spider-Man reboot (wasn’t reading it a few months ago, not interested in reading it now), but I found Identity Crisis tasteless, and the implications of the scenes disturbing.

Sorry if this thread turns into more rehashing of Identity Crisis outrage/ non-outrage.

I think that Identity Crisis avoided the outrage all the way up until the story fell apart at the end.

I remember that people were incredibly into it at the time, right up until the last issue came out, then the backlash really began.

I think Jemas’ comments about “bad girls for fanboys” got me, personally angrier, but I don’t think the uproar was as big as OMD.

I’ve gotta agree. I read that article beginning to end and while it seems 2001 had some missteps, but nothing like OMD. First of all, a lot of these missteps are things you only knew about if you’re a meta-comic fan, where you read the sites, read Wizard interviews, go to cons, etc. The vast majority of people who like comics only read the comics, the TPBs, or what have you. So a lot of what is mentioned from 2001 likely went over reader’s heads, while there is no way anyone who is a fan of ASM could avoid OMD.

Augie doesn’t make the case, but it is interesting to see how there are always mini-controversies. The tagging of DC as “AOL Comics” is a fascinating little time-machine nugget.

I think “Heroes Reborn” was probably a bigger controversy… or *would* have been, but the series of tubes that make up the Intarweb hadn’t quite progressed far enough for modern amplification and feedback loops to develop.

“Death of Superman” was big, but not especially *controversial* among the comics-reading population, who mostly realized it wasn’t going to be permanent but were curious and interested about how it would play out.

You’d have to go all the way back to Heroes Reborn and the worst moments of the Clone Saga if you want to find something as controversial as OMD.

Even so, back in the 90s it seemed like the Image characters were the cool kids now, and Marvel was done for. The controversies seemed muted because there was general despondence among Marvel fans, it was hard to care about what seemed a dying universe.

As for DC, I don’t remember anything as controversial as OMD. I think the controversy over the Superman reboot was something that grew more and more after the fact. In 1986, we’d just had 15+ years of poorly-received Superman stories and flagging sales. I know it’s hard to imagine it in these days of renewed love for retro-Silver Age, but back then the reboot seemed like the only way to resurrect the franchise.

Imagine if the internet was in the homes of millions when Steve Rogers was replaced by John Walker.

I do think that that one year really broke a lot of the deep emotional connection I had to Marvel Comics ever since I was a kid.

Avengers Disassembled was sort of the last straw a couple of years later, but that year was really the set up for it. It was the end of me feeling the stories and being tremendously attached to the characters. instead of just reading them critically.

There was so much going on that I didn’t agree with that it forced me to grow up as a reader or just bail from Marvel in general.

I dunno, as clumsy and awkward as OMD/BND was, it was nowhere near as insulting or outrageously stupid as the average issue of DC superhero book from the past 3 years. I guess that’s why I don’t complain about this stuff so much, because what’s my alternative for reading superheroes? Not only has DC ruined their own superhero books, they ruined Wildstorm too. Somehow they managed to make Grant Morrison and Paul Dini Batman comics uinspiring even. When it comes to nonsuperhero books I have tons of options out there, but in superhero books I only have Marvel. So I’ll deal with it. I always know there’s worse out there.

The Superman reboot would have kicked a storm if Internet existed. John Byrne STILL gets a lot of flak for it, more that TWENTY years later and after most of the changes were long undone!

You don’t see that for, say, his more recent Spider-Man or Doom Patrol reboots, but his Superman reboot is still badmouthed daily all over the internet!

For everyone that dislikes the man’s attitude, I would like to see how *you* would react to the world when you are dissed for something you did over 20 years ago.

(Something that was quite sucessful on its time and helped the character A LOT, I must add.)

Best,
Hunter (Pedro Bouça)

Yeah, nothing in 2001 was as controversial as what happened

As for other events that caused controversy, an obvious example is Joe Q’s other genie, Decimation, although nothing since Clone Saga, except maybe Heroes Reborn, was this controversial.

I’d say Heroes Reborn was more controversial. But then again Heroes Reborn (in my opinion) ruined all the Marvel titles I was reading at the time and drove me away from Marvel in general for over 5 years. I don’t read Spider-Man, so I’m obviously going to lean more toawrds Reborn.

T., does every post you make have to be about bashing DC even though we both know that Marvel’s comics are as equally bad and good at times? C’mon.

T:

If you’re jonesing for superhero books that aren’t lame, continuity driven messes, check out Invincible, Noble Causes, and Dynamo 5. All Image books, and all really enjoyable stories that get superheroes in a way modern Marvel and DC simply don’t. There are probably others as well, but those are the best ones I can think of.

To look back at the departure of Mary Jane then and compare it to now is a mistake. Mary Jane’s move to LA was an attempt to placate fans after the stalker story by bringing her back, but give editorial what they wanted by moving her out, it was a really well executed way of ending the MJ story. She was open to come back at any point or they could have pulled the trigger and let them drift apart.

IT was respectfull of both the reader and the story this was not.

Brian, not to nitpick, but is this really a divisive issue? A divisive issue suggests a divide. Abortion is a divisive issue because there’s clearly two camps involved. Is there anybody (other than Joe Q.) who supports Day? I’d suggest it’s one of the most poorly received events.

Also, acknowledging there’s a lot of moons gone by, does Secret Wars II compare?

J to the AAP said it right in the first post. NOTHING Marvel has ever done has been as insulting to both the characters and the readers as OMD, and that is why, as Black Lutefisk notes, NOBODY (other than Joe Q)supports it.

Pedro - I think this attitude against the Superman reboot is something that grew with the years. Pre-1986, Byrne was God, and no one was reading the old Superman, many mediocre, failed Superman stories of the late 70s an early 80s still fresh on everyone’s minds.

The way I remember things, there was a minority of pissed-off older fans, and a much bigger majority of supporters and people reading Superman for the first time.

It was only later that the consensus started to change, Byrne started to decay as an artist, and the Silver Age started to come into vogue again, that the reboot came to be seen in a different light.

Markblack - I think people knew back then that John Walker was just a temporary replacement. They didn’t even kill Steve Rogers.

It seems to me like most or all of the things on his list were things which were decisions which were controversial until they came out, at which time the controversy — either proved or disproved — more or less dissolved.

The only exception is Zimmerman. Prior to ‘One More Day’, Zimmerman was certainly the most hated thing that Marvel had done in a long time. I think ‘One More Day’ has not only trumped it, but also proven to be virtually as universally hated as Zimmerman.

Zimmerman, if you recall, had one big fan, who was the EiC of Marvel. ‘One More Day’ has one big fan, too.

“Emerald Twilight” was the one that I think of as causing such a stir. Although OMD/BND had far more of a lead-in.

I dunno. Comics are cyclical by nature–as is most art–but I find that this particular move is really tough. Then again, I am upset that both Marvel & DC seem to be courting the Silver Age crowds again with returns to those concepts. I don’t dislike the concepts necessarily but it is frustrating to be a Bronze and Modern guy and constantly feel like I have no idea what is going on in the books I have put 15 years into…

I actually like married heroes because they are a new slant to write. Damsels in distress have been done to death. But I suppose that comic book writers find it more challenging to write marriages compellingly, however. Are there many enduring, spotlit marriages around anymore? Lois & Clark and Flash/Wally & Linda are the only two I can think of. Well, besides Midnighter and Apollo….sigh, I want that.

–K

No, I don’t see it either. Yeah, the Bill-and-Joe era was a time of bad boy behaviour (in all the good and bad ways that entails) and controversy-for-its-own-sake, but it produced a lot of great comics: the ultimate line, Morrison’s New X-Men, Bendis on Daredevil, Waid and Wiernigo’s FF. The whole era in my memory feels like a carnival: baiting DC and Paul Levitz, U-Decide contests with Peter David, terrible parodies like Marville but it was all showmanship toward an end and that was to shake Marvel up.

But today the new regime is the old regime and the showmanship is more muted (partially because, I think, it bit Jemas on the ass, and partially because, bluntly, I don’t think Quesada is nearly as good at it as Jemas ever was) and the really hot talent has kind of become the establishment at Marvel, which is quite the anthesis of 2001 and bringing DC demi-gods like Morrison and indie writers like Bendis and writers hungry to prove themselves like Mark Millar. I thought the decision to bring, to name just one, Jeph Loeb into the fold on the Ultimate Line was a bad one– not because of Loeb as a writer (since I disagree with the party line here on Loeb) but because I always thought the Ulitmate Line should be a place for up-and-comers to try and do Marvel stories at a 45-degree angle from what’s going on in the main Marvel Universe.

I think One More Day is different and more controversial in that I think it’s the pinnacle of editorially-mandated comics. Comics fans love their continuity, and they love their sense of the ongoing story and while the Winter Soldier and Superboy’s punches and Sue Dibny’s and Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn’s love children all had editorial’s fingers all over them, this takes it to a new level.

I think any comic fan has their own personal horror story of having a favourite character continuity retconned, whether it be the Silver Age Superman being changed to Byrne’s Bronze Age one (in my case I’ve been mourning for the Byrne Superman being changed for the past couple of years!) or Jason Todd being brought back from the dead or whatever. It really bugs you in the corner of your fanboy mind in a way that’s hard to describe to non comics fans because it sounds absurd to feel such passion about a fictional character. Put it together with Marvel, which tends to work elaborate in-continuity fixes to vexing problems (see Clone Saga, The), and Spider-Man, who represents the sort of everyman superhero and you have a giant mess. I wouldn’t a collector of Spider-Man, but I disliked One More Day’s solution (and can understand the antipathy toward it) because the Spider-Man I’ve grown up with was the one that married MJ. Divorcing them, I could have lived with it, killing off MJ– while far from ideal– was livable but OMD rendered the stories fanboys lived with obsolete.

I’m totally puzzled as to why Marvel editorial doesn’t get how this solution wouldn’t be reviled by its fanbase. Fans love continuity. Marvel is a whole imprint of comic books that made its stock in trade for decades grooming fans love and need for continuity. I can understand why fans are up in arms, and I do think it’s different than other controversies in that I think Bill-and-Joe used it as part of an arsenal to get attention on a different approach to doing Marvel comics. One More Day was continuity-score -settling on the part of the EIC (and I think it’s the fannishness of the desire to nix the marriage that bugs me most; was there really that big of a problem having Peter married?) that’s pissed off other continuity-obsessed fans.

That said, fans will keep buying the comics regardless. And no one will learn anything, as usual.

Did you guys see this?

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?p=5007118#post5007118

T:

If you’re jonesing for superhero books that aren’t lame, continuity driven messes, check out Invincible, Noble Causes, and Dynamo 5. All Image books, and all really enjoyable stories that get superheroes in a way modern Marvel and DC simply don’t. There are probably others as well, but those are the best ones I can think of.

I’ll have to try those. I love reading Image’s nonsuperhero books like Nightly News and Age of Bronze but haven’t tried their superhero stuff yet.

., does every post you make have to be about bashing DC even though we both know that Marvel’s comics are as equally bad and good at times?

Maybe as far as art goes. With the writing, I find mainstream DC to be universally worse across the board.

Noble Causes? *snort* No thanks.

Five years from now, when the latest controversial jarring shift in continuity and the status quo takes place, and everyone is bitching up a storm, saying that this is the worst thing Marvel/DC has ever done, someone will then bring up One More Day as an example of how these things are cyclical, at whixh point everyone else will jump all over him shouting “No no no, THIS is much worse than OMD ever was!!!” I guarantee it will happen.

Five years from now, when the latest controversial jarring shift in continuity and the status quo takes place, and everyone is bitching up a storm, saying that this is the worst thing Marvel/DC has ever done, someone will then bring up One More Day as an example of how these things are cyclical, at whixh point everyone else will jump all over him shouting “No no no, THIS is much worse than OMD ever was!!!” I guarantee it will happen.

I actually agree with you on this– but I just don’t think the comparison to the Bill Jemas-era Marvel that Augie’s using in his column actually works.

Maybe as far as art goes. With the writing, I find mainstream DC to be universally worse across the board.

but perhaps the real question to be asked is why your response to just about any post that even mildly criticizes Marvel is to subtly change the subject in order to bash DC?

I would have to say the SpideyClone saga or the teenaged Tony Stark/Iron Man.

Can be that big as I don’t know what it’s about. Just that it’s something to do with Spiderman.

“Five years from now, when the latest controversial jarring shift in continuity and the status quo takes place, and everyone is bitching up a storm”

I think the strange thing is that people who are trying to play down the complaints, because that’s all Internet fan-boys do is complain, are being somewhat reductive in their conflation of *all* complaints as being equal.

I would say that the lead-up was comprable; people complaining without knowing anything about the details? Yeah, that happened in pretty much *every* case the original guy is citing.

But this complaining is continuing now post-publication; this has to be one of the few stories in my memory to have gotten *more* controversial after being published than it was in the build-up. That’s the thing that makes it unique, and it’s the thing Quesada and Wacker have been downplaying and ignoring, hoping it will go away.

Which it probably will. But still; this is the perfect storm of Internet comic book complaining. I don’t think we’ll see a setup like this again any time soon, so I don’t think we’ll get quite as much controversy anytime soon.

But I think that, whatever the next controversies are, people will be referring to this one in comparison for a while.

And by “controversial”, I mean that the readers hate it and the editors love it… usually, the readers who love it and the readers who hate it argue the point out, but this one is pretty universal, it seems. Everybody hates *this* story; the division/controversy is “Is ‘Brand New day’ good enough to justify this horribleness as neccessary?”

JAAP
None however, was as insulting and inherently stupid as One More Day.

This might be based on character attachment. I’ve certainly heard “insulting” and “stupid” tossed at Bendis for disassembled or Morrison for his X-men a couple of hundred times.

If you’re the sort of person who feels insulted by super-hero comics comics (I’m not, and honestly I have trouble understanding this view) then you will, at some point, probably feel insulted by what they’ve done to your favorite character.

Stupid? I wouldn’t even go that far. I give the OMD writers some points for creativity just ’cause the whole idea is So. Damn. Weird.

I’d go with “Poorly conceived,executed, and completely missing the POINT of the character on a thematic level.* But nicely drawn.” Over “stupid.”

And, yeah, I’d agree with “Most controversial single comics event in the internet era.”

Also ‘not divisive.’ Good call, Lutefish.

* But not as much as John Byrne’s Superman. Yes, I am small and petty.

The main thing that I notice is that there is practically no one, not even Quesada, who claims OMD was a good story. Q. all but admits that it was a bad story that was done to get Spider-Man to the place he wanted him at. It was a classic, “I told you that story so that I could tell you this one.”

So, I wonder, can I remember another time when no one defended a story?

I think that everything mentioned so far has had at least one fan that I’ve met either in person or via internet. All, but one: Emerald Twilight.

No one that I’ve ever heard from liked Emerald Twilight, and everyone seemed to recognize that it was simply getting the Green Lantern concept to the third generation (like OMD got the Spider-Man concept to where it is.)

The main difference is that ET ended with Kyle getting the ring. This gave readers hope that something new, interesting, and possibly good could come next. Now, some decided that without Hal, and with the way Hal was killed off, that they didn’t care what came next. But, even though no one I know ever thought it was a good idea, I did know people who bought the next issue and followed Kyle, and came to like him.

I was a manager of a comic book store at the time. After ET sales dropped from 15 to 3, and over the next few months rose to less than ten. This was actually pretty good, though as we were a small store. I mean, we weren’t even selling 50 coppies of Spawn or X-Men at the time.

But, as for magnitude, Spider-Man touches a lot more readers than Green Lantern ever did. And, I suspect that the outrage would actually be less if Peter had gone crazy and died, a la Hal Jordan, and been replaced with a character and supporting cast we’ve never seen before.

Theno

What makes this stand out is its presentation. Even with the Clone saga the writers at least seemed to be trying. If Peter Parker woke up one day and was single again with no explanation of how things had changed, it would be a much better story than One More Day.

That might have been a more compelling way to approach it, almost treating it like Lost. Do Peter or MJ know the made a deal with the Mephisto? I always assumed not. It could have worked better that way. Maybe.

damn, that’s true.

It would’ve been a much more compelling story if it had happened and he had to figure out *what* happened and how.

And then, at a certain point, instead of choosing between keeping Aunt May alive or keeping married, the choice had been made. He would have to choose between keeping it the same (May alive, Peter single) — which is the only way he has ever known it — or go back to the alternate, where May is dead and he is married.

*that* would be a compelling choice, because he actually would be choosing to kill May if he wanted to put it back.

… but, in the end, he still would’ve made a deal with the devil, which really is the sticking point in a lot of craw’s, no matter how much people try to paint this like it’s the same as any other retcon.

You know, I hate to open old wounds about how much Zimmerman is despised. But I will say I liked the one issue he wrote of Tangled Web (where the villains were all in the bar). Everything else? Yeah, pretty bad.

A quick google search does indeed reveal Identity Crisis to be bigger than Brand New Day…so far. Who knows WHEN the controversy will end?

I don’t buy it - Identity Crisis was definitely controversial (perhaps the second-most controversial event, really) - but it didn’t get the same level of anger as One More Day, mostly because there was a VERY vocal crowd who LOVED Identity Crisis, or at least did until the ending.

Also note that the mainstream media paid it no attention, unlike One More Day/Brand New Day.

Rawhide Kid being put back in the closet, and then Joe Q saying he would only be gay in Max books, then saying he never said that, then saying it paved the way for Brokeback Mountain, then holding up Freedom Ring as proof Marvel wasn’t anti-gay, then that character dying the next week etc.

For me, anyway, it was a bigger deal because the EIC basically said gay heroes weren’t right for kids (who does he think reads his books anyway?), and until they did the full retraction (which still involved them saying they never said it, even though they did) I ended up boycotting Marvel books.
(which to be honest, wasn’t that hard at all. Only one I really felt I was missing out on was Runaways, and then when I got it, found it was quite poor).

That situation was certainly dumber, Funky, but it got a lot less attention among readers, basically because barely anyone read the book (it did get some mainstream attention, though!).

“Pedro - I think this attitude against the Superman reboot is something that grew with the years. Pre-1986, Byrne was God, and no one was reading the old Superman, many mediocre, failed Superman stories of the late 70s an early 80s still fresh on everyone’s minds.

The way I remember things, there was a minority of pissed-off older fans, and a much bigger majority of supporters and people reading Superman for the first time.

It was only later that the consensus started to change, Byrne started to decay as an artist, and the Silver Age started to come into vogue again, that the reboot came to be seen in a different light.”

I don’t think so. I was there at the time and there was a group of fans that decried it, started campaigning against it and NEVER stopped! They were always there raising the banners against Byrne’s Superman even when they were a small, ridiculed minority!

And they did influence quite a lot of people over time, I must admit. I can’t believe the number of people I’ve seen badmouthing Byrne who never even READ a pre-Crisis Superman story in their lives…

And it IS unbelievably long-lasting!

“* But not as much as John Byrne’s Superman. Yes, I am small and petty.”

See what I mean? Get over it, man! It was over TWENTY years ago and it was retconned away throughly ever since!

Hunter (Pedro Bouça)

Clone Saga, especially at the “this Peter you thought you knew for years is a CLONE!” part, right along with hitting his pregnant wife.

Basically Marvel threatened to do what they ended up doing this time around, undoing years of stories and breaking up MJ and Peter.

I’ve noticed quite a few people saying that they would have preferred OMD didn’t happen, rather that Marvel just threw their hands up in the air and said “From now on Peter’s not married” - I don’t understand how that would be any different than tossing the OMD issues out and pretending you never read them…

All the scorn poured on Heroes Reborn - those books sold pretty well after the event, and the whole thing served as a template for the Ultimate line really.

I remember when Ultimate Spidey and X-Men were announced, I dismissed it as HR Mark II.

I don’t think “One More Day” is divisive AT ALL. It’s the single biggest uniting issue that the world of comics has ever seen. I’ve never seen one story that 99% of comics fans could agree on, one way or the other, before today. =)

I just don’t think it’s that big a deal. The spike is higher, but I don’t think it’ll be any wider than any other “event.” I still maintain that this is a stunt that will last a year or maybe two before it’s undone again. Thus, I don’t get worked up over it. I’ve seen it all done before — as many have pointed out in all the examples further upstream, including Broken Back Batman, Death of Superman, Teenage Tony Stark, Doctor Strange’s Secret Identity, Captain America’s other death, Captain America’s replacement, Captain America: The Werewolf, Aunt May’s Death, Spider-Baby’s disappearance, Clone Saga, The Death of Phoenix any of the first ten times. . .

You see why this storyline fails to outrage me now? Been there and done that. If it had been done in a more convincing way, I might get behind it. Erik Larsen’s divorce theory is a strong one, actually. That would have been a much smarter story.

But I’m not getting worked up over it. Even that divorce would eventually have been undone.

Also going to a second printing: NORTH WIND #1, the book retailers said they’d never support because BOOM! put it up for free on-line. So who’s ordering it then? Why is there sudden demand for the book?

Sorry, that’s completely off-topic, but I had to throw it in.

The true victims in this Spider-Man story are Dan Slott, Steve McNiven, et. al. whose strong work will forever be overshadowed by its inception.

I don’t think just ONE MORE DAY is divisive, as it appears to be practically universally disliked, but I think BRAND NEW DAY is divisive, which is why I say ONE MORE DAY/BRAND NEW DAY is divisive, with that divide being between creative personnel and fans.

What creators want versus what fans (seem to) want is rarely this out of tune. Note that the Clone Saga and its aftermath was basically the creators doing what they thought the fans wanted. Identity Crisis was specifically giving the fans what DC thought they wanted (which was a “more mature” comic book, or a “Marvel-esque” comic).

This is doing what the CREATORS (and editorial) wanted. And while Marvel personnel I am sure is divided over whether One More Day was the way to do it, I think it’s pretty clear that it is near unanimity in support of the concept of Brand New Day - a single Peter Parker with Harry Osborn back.

I’m used to creators doing things that the fans don’t automatically think is prudent (Avengers Disassembled, Identity Crisis, Goddamned Batman), but I think this one is the most divisive and the most controversial (of the internet age, of course).

The true victims in this Spider-Man story are Dan Slott, Steve McNiven, et. al. whose strong work will forever be overshadowed by its inception.

If they do good work, people will forget about its inception about 3 issues in. In fact, based on the positive internet buzz just off their first issue, I think fans have shorter memories than you think. I remember when people claimed that they’d never forgive Marvel for undoing ASM #400’s poignant story of Aunt May’s death, and now hardly anyone cares. People have short memories.

If they do good work, people will forget about its inception about 3 issues in. In fact, based on the positive internet buzz just off their first issue, I think fans have shorter memories than you think. I remember when people claimed that they’d never forgive Marvel for undoing ASM #400’s poignant story of Aunt May’s death, and now hardly anyone cares. People have short memories.

Normally, I’d totally agree with you.

Heck, back in September, I wrote:

Back when One More Day was first announced (which was, what, twelve years ago? Feels like it), or maybe even before, when Quesada was just talking about how bad the marriage was, I argued that, if you think a book really needs a change THAT badly, just make the change, even if you have to do it with a stupid storyline like Avengers Disassembled. People WILL eventually forget about it, and then you’ll have the changes you want.

Now, though, I am unsure.

Like I noted - I didn’t expect THIS much backlash. So I dunno if the fans really WILL forget this the same way they forgot, say, Avengers Disassembled.

I think the reason OMD is so much worse than any of the previous examples given is because of the context in which it was created. Most all of those examples happened before or during the mainstream comics landscape collapsed.

After the bubble burst, a lot of hard work went into rebuilding superhero comics. Perhaps I’m just naive, but I felt a lot of growth happened around the turn of the century. There was an effort into writing the books as books, and not just cheap disposable entertainment. The comics code was eventually dropped, and thanks to things like the Ultimate line, new fans were coming in droves to read fun stories that weren’t bogged down by traditional comic tropes(cluttered continuity, crossovers, stupid costumes, etc.)

I’ve grown increasingly dissatisfied with Marvel and DC over the last few years as they’ve both devolved back into the sensationalist tactics that were so common place at the lowest point in the 90’s. However, OMD takes the cake. It is the epitome of terrible comics. The fact that it was made in 2007, makes it worse than any other comic story ever made. For years Quesada has been beating his chest about how mature Marvel comics are(Look! Hollywood writers, it’s a legitimate medium! Civil War is about politics!) Then he turns around and gives us the most typical of terrible comic stories, whose only purpose is to reset continuity while at the same time hopelessly maintain it, that would make the writers of the famed Clone Saga cringe. This is the sort of thing that was causing people to LEAVE comics ten years ago!

I was under the (mistaken) impression that there was a level of standards not just among Marvel but among the fans as well. I thought we’d all grown out of the ninety’s with a new perspective. Clearly, I was wrong.

And for the record, I’m not talking about things like the “illusion of change.” I expect characters to go through revisions and so forth. I’m talking about the methods in which Marvel has gone about presenting these stories. Saying things like, “The unmasking won’t be undone by a magic memory wipe” only to have it done away by a magic memory wipe, and desperately trying to claim that despite undoing past comics, they’re still in continuity. Really Quesada, who are you trying to fool? Everybody knows kids aren’t reading comics anymore, so why are are the readers being treating as if they still use the rubber scissors?

I shall timidly raise my hand and say that I liked Emerald Twilight. I was thirteen when it came out and really had no concept of Hal Jordan beforehand (other than “guy in boring stories a lot”). I sincerely enjoyed the issues detailing his mental degeneration and eventual collapse into villainy, and loved the concept of Kyle as Green Lantern having to protect the universe from his corrupt predecessor. I severely doubt I would like it so much in retrospect, but it did a perfect job of making me buy Green Lantern for a good five years or so.

(I read the Byrne Superman reboot around this era and loved that, too, as it was the first Superman I ever read.)

Anyway, I have to agree with Augie and say that OMD is a uniter, not a divider. Everyone hates it. What’s divisive is Brand New Day– there’s a camp that likes it as a comic, a camp that dislikes it as a comic, and then two camps that like/dislike it based on their reactions to One More Day. It’s one of the more complex fan reactions I’ve seen awhile, which I suppose is why it’s getting written about so much.

Anyway, I have to agree with Augie and say that OMD is a uniter, not a divider. Everyone hates it. What’s divisive is Brand New Day–

Again, though, that’s why I made a point of writing One More Day/Brand New Day.

Mmmm…

Soooo,

What I want to know is this:

Did Spidey kill Normie Osborn with his wishy washy wish? ‘Cause I can’t tell by looking at Quesada’s handouts.

I know Harry is alive and single; but is he single-single or divorce-single? Does that make Normie, Harry’s illegitimate child?

Oh, and how ’bout Uncle Ben? How can Spidey sell his daughter’s soul and not remember to bring Uncle Ben back to life? (I didn’t buy the issue, so I have to ask: Is there a panel where Pete goes “Dammit, I know I’m forgeting someone.”)

What? What? (Not the right time or place you say?)

But who’s going to answer these things?

Wikipedia’s no help! Trust me, I’ve tried!!!

Okay.

FINE!

As for

“…just tell me a comic book controversy that you think was bigger than this one…”

”

Well, it’s hard because for one thing, Marvel’s biggest and some time’s best selling character is Spider-man; so it impacts a good deal of the clients/fans.

And secondly, in any of the previous controversies, you weren’t reminded of it on an almost weekly basis. So the controversy had a chance to die down.

Anyways.

Here it is. In no particular order. My list of controversies that I think were bigger than Spidey getting a “stupid reboot/deal with the devil” because when it’s all said and done, I feel they have tainted the medium that I love(more so than the characters)…

*Sue Dibny getting raped, then scorched (or viceversa).

*Wonder Woman becoming a stone cold killer (w/o any repercussions and Superman actually looking the other way!!!).

*The whole Felicia thing a.k.a. how Mark Waid found out he was fired from the Fantastic Four by reading it in the internet.

*Leslie Thompkins allowing Stephanie Brown/Spoiler to die.

*Valerie D’Orazio saying Goodbye to comics and showing us what a wholesome working environment DC has.

*Writers who boast that they can decompress a story and make ït last 6 months; but at the same time have the audacity to threaten (or guilt trip) their readership into buying the monthly and “not waiting for the trade.” You know, ’cause if the medium dies, it’s the reader’s fault!

On a lesser scale we have:

1- Superman’s return to Krypton. ‘Cause one reboot wasn’t enough; and the world apparently needed more “headband wearing Kryptonians” from the 60’s! That one was so much fun, that they had to return a second time in order to reveal that the headbands where actually an illusion! (I still don’t understand that one! Me thinks Jor-El made a deal with Mephisto!)

2- Two words… “Soul Vision” (Thought I forgot about that, didn’t you!)

3- Blue Beetle. The hero who everyone is “too busy to help”. Plus, the guy can dodge bullet sprays from automatic rifles, but is no match against a handgun. Go fig.

4- The Goddamn Batman!

5- Superboy Punch!

6- Oh my God! They killed Siegel and Shuster’s Original Superman!!!!

Together now!!!

We didn’t start the fire! It’s been always burning, since the world’s been turning!

7- Tony Stark???
…evil, now!

8- Batman’s just plain psycho

9- Kid Flash… blown away! What else do I have to say?

Together now!!!

We didn’t start the fire! It’s been always burning, since the world’s been turning!

Bwah-hahahahhahahahahahahhahahaha!!!!

Oh, wait. I forgot. The Giffen League Bwah-ha-ha is gone too. (As well as Marvel-Boy II, ’cause Jemas is/was a better writer than Grant “effin” Morrinson.)

I’ll tell you one thing though. I’m still waiting for those “new readers” Jemas and Quesada promised way back in 2000-2001. Does anybody know when they are scheduled to show up?

Don’t forget this isn’t over yet.

Clone Saga, Disassembled, Emerald Twilight, Zero Hour, Onslaught, Mark Waid Pisses on 40 years of Legion History, all of these were loathed at the time.

But some of them led to really good stories afterwards and, thus, looked OK in retrospect.

So with Brand New Day selling out and getting generally good reviews it is possible that in a year OMD will still be hated but no one will hold a grudge against the current Spider-Man stories.

But if BND lays an egg, then the hatred will never stop.

Dammit!

Isn’t it always the case!

You are going to bed. You’re half asleep, and then you remember your favorite Jemas-Quesada comic of all time!!!!!!

You know the one!

Written be your favorite “here’s me sticking it to you” writer!

With the jail bait covers, and the capital “T” for:

TROUBLE!!!

Now, who would’ve thunk that the marvelous minds that figured they could revitalize the romance genre with an abortion/aunt may is really Peter’s Mom/teen pregnancy story; were capable of fumbling a Spider-Man reboot.

Certainly not me!

Anyways,

I think I can still hit DC with the wildly inappropriate, but very special episode of, Mary Marvel and Supergirl go to the Mall. But that was in the 90’s.

And really,

Who wants to top Trouble?!?!?

You’d have to be crazy or insane, to try a stunt like that!!!

“I don’t understand how that would be any different than tossing the OMD issues out and pretending you never read them”

Well, it isn’t, and that’s why I was quite happy to give a reasonably positive review to “Brand New Day.”

Here’s how I see it. There are two camps on “One More Day.” The majority think that the changes to continuity are stupid, and that the method used to achieve them is idiotic. A minority (myself included) think that the changes to continuity might not be so bad, but that the method used to achieve them is idiotic. The upshot is that virtually everyone agrees that “One More Day” was idiotic.

Really, I think the nearest precedent for this is the Spider-Clone. I’ll be very interested to see the sales on this, as the months progress. It’s notoriously hard to drive superhero readers away, and I’m sure the first issue of “Brand New Day” will do well. Nonetheless, they’ve run a story that seems to be loathed across the board, and (like the clone) it undermines the character’s history to such a degree that it inevitably undermines readers’ attachment to the series. You can’t present this to readers as a continuation of the story they were reading before, and so you have to re-earn their investment in the series at a time when the audience is hostile. And what’s more, they’re bringing in a committee creative team light on A-listers.

This clearly has an unusually high potential to go horribly wrong. I would never place money on any heavily-promoted book failing, but you might well ask: if this doesn’t fail, what will?

But Rickey, you only seem to be mentioning stories/events that you just thought were worse than One More Day. That is not all that hard to do (and I would particularly agree that both Identity Crisis and Countdown to Infinite Crisis were significantly worse in terms of character damage), but in terms of controversy, all of those stories, save PERHAPS Identity Crisis really didn’t do much in the way of causing major controversy.

con·tro·ver·sy (kntr-vûrs) KEY

NOUN:
pl. con·tro·ver·sies
A dispute, especially a public one, between sides holding opposing views.

But nobody seems to be arguing for OMD/BND!

My stuff’s more exciting!!!

Did you know that Aunt May cheated on Uncle Ben???

Now that’s controversial!!!

I think the side holding the opposing view in this instant is Marvel’s creative staff. They all think Brand New Day is a great idea - the fans seem to think otherwise - who will win in the end?

Augie suggests in his comments that ultimately Marvel will relent, like they did with the Clone Saga, and we’ll see a return of the marriage.

I think that will not happen - but either way, it’s the biggest “to-do” I’ve seen in comics during the “internet era.”

This might be based on character attachment. I’ve certainly heard “insulting” and “stupid” tossed at Bendis for disassembled or Morrison for his X-men a couple of hundred times.

Markandrew, it probably at least partly as and I’m well aware of the controversy surrounding those two. But even though many paople might disagree with the alterations to status quo made by Morrison or Bendis I don’t think the stories themselves we’re stupid or offending in their execution. What I mean is if they divorced I might’ve disagree with the change just as much but it wouldn’t be such a ludicrous crapfest bestowed upon the reader.

The big difference between OMD and the breaking of Batman’s back, John Walker as Captain America, the Death of Superman, even Emerald Twilight is that they were essentially the beginning of a story, not the end.

This is more like Batman’s Death in the Family where Jason Todd died. The story is over, and so far as editorial and creators are saying, the story is establishing the new ongoing status quo.

Now, with that said, I’d like to say that I, personally, feel that OMD is actually exactly like Death of Superman in that I think that it is obvious that OMD/BND are the first two chapters in a self-contained story.

You see: Superman dies, the world mourns, replacements appear, Superman returns as does the status quo. Batman is broken, another Batman takes his place, Bruce vs. Jean Paul and the status quo returns. These are self-contained stories. There is a clear beginning, middle, and end.

I think that OMD isn’t an end, despite Marvel’s claims. But, by the sheer naming of the story arcs, is more likely a trilogy. One More Day, followed by Bold New Day, followed by Someting Ending in Day at the end of which some small things might be different. Superman might have longer hair and be slightly weaker. Batman might have a new Agent. John Walker might be a Cap replacement for AWC. Maybe in this instance, the secret identity will still be hidden. But, mostly, it’ll be back like it was. I give it 12 months.

Doesn’t mean I liked OMD, however. I’d rather accept that Superman forgot to use his heat vision and other powers on Doomsday than that Spider-Man forgot that making deals with the devil was a bad thing.

Theno

I don’t think there’s any real chance of the marriage returning.

Even if they regain their memories of the marriage (which is a real possibility), I do not think they’ll bring the marriage back.

Remember, it’s not like Joe Quesada is alone on not wanting Spider-Man married - there’s a near unanimity among the folks who have worked on Spider-Man the past 15 years or so who just do not like the marriage.

Y’know, people say things like:

“So I dunno if the fans really WILL forget this the same way they forgot, say, Avengers Disassembled.”

But do we really? I look back at my own personal history as a comics fan, and I look at myself in, say, 1995. I was probably buying 25-30 dollars a week of comics, which would probably be closer to 40-50 dollars now. Not counting trade paperbacks or anything, this was just what I spent on that week’s new releases. Marvel, DC, Image, I was a voracious fan.

Now? I buy exactly zero dollars a month on new releases. Marvel, DC, and Image have literally driven me away as a fan. I still buy stuff from them, but it’s all either reprints of their older material or their all-ages, out of continuity books. And I don’t think I’m alone in that regard. I think that a lot of “the fans” haven’t forgotten, that they’ve walked away over the years and everyone’s just choosing not to remember how big the readership used to be.

Fans do have a breaking point in their personal loyalty to the company (Marvel or DC), and it’s a tremendous mistake on the part of that company to assume that just because their latest stunt didn’t reach it, it must therefore not be reachable. They might manage to pull off OMD/BND, to retain a disgruntled audience through habit and lingering goodwill (although my gut instinct still says no, this one is going to be where most people get off the f’ing trolley.) But that’s not the same thing as the fans “forgetting it”.

(Or to quote Terry Pratchett, in response to someone saying, “Forgive and forget, eh?”: “I’ll forgive. Don’t recall anyone saying anything about forgetting.”)

New Avengers sells nearly twice as much as Avengers did pre-Disassembled.

Mighty Avengers sell about the same as New Avengers.

Even Avengers: Initiative sells more than Avengers sold pre-Disassembled!!

So either the fans forgot about Disassembled, or they picked up the proverbial “new readers” to make up for the departed ones.

That situation was certainly dumber, Funky, but it got a lot less attention among readers, basically because barely anyone read the book (it did get some mainstream attention, though!).

Which is actually disappointing.
Mess with a character, everyone gets up in arms.
Make homophobic statements/decisions to appease whoever got upset about changes to an old character, there’s a slight grumbling.

New Avengers sells nearly twice as much as Avengers did pre-Disassembled.

Mighty Avengers sell about the same as New Avengers.

Even Avengers: Initiative sells more than Avengers sold pre-Disassembled!!

So either the fans forgot about Disassembled, or they picked up the proverbial “new readers” to make up for the departed ones.

And Bob Harras’ Avengers sold more than all of them.
It seems to me that they aren’t picking up ‘new’ readers, just readers from other books.
It’s become a limited pool of readership, and so they have to rely on stunt stories and constantly switching creative teams to keep people interested.

I would say they did pick up “new” readers, in the sense that Brian Michael Bendis has a group of fans who will pick up anything he writes, and who followed him to that title specifically to pick up Bendis’ latest book. (Much in the same way that I’m sure “written by Warren Ellis” increased sales on ‘Thunderbolts’.)

Not to mention, the Avengers have been the centerpiece of a major marketing push by Marvel for the past few years, with several of their “event” crossovers being prominently featured as ‘Avengers events’. (And ‘Secret Invasion’, the 2008 “event”, has been pushed for the last several months as, “It starts in the pages of ‘New Avengers’! If you don’t want to get left out when ‘Secret Invasion’ starts, you should be buying ‘New Avengers’ right now! Now, dammit, now!”)

I remain unconvinced that the current audience for ‘New/Mighty Avengers/:The Initiative’ is the “core” audience of long-term Avengers fans with an abiding love for the (if you’ll permit me a momentary indulgence) Avengers’ storytelling engine.

And Bob Harras’ Avengers sold more than all of them.
It seems to me that they aren’t picking up ‘new’ readers, just readers from other books.
It’s become a limited pool of readership, and so they have to rely on stunt stories and constantly switching creative teams to keep people interested.

Come on, you know you can’t compare sales on books from the early 90s to books now, lest we have stuff like “NFL Superpro is more popular than every comic currently made!” You CAN compare the sales of the comic from the month before Bendis took over to the sales the month after Bendis took over.

Whether they are from other books or not, the book sold a lot better post-Disassembled than pre-Disassembeld. So much so that they added a spin-off title that sells about the same!!

And ANOTHER spin-off that sells more than the pre-Disassembled Avengers!

You could argue that all they’re doing is adding readers from, say, X-Men and getting them to buy ANOTHER comic, rather than taking in readers from outside the industry.

I totally buy that.

But it is pretty plain to see, from a sales perspective, Disassembled worked well.

I picked up Mighty Avengers for Frank Cho’s Ultron. The story wasn’t worth the number of issues it took to resolve it. If the next arc isn’t compelling, I will drop it with no regrets.

I picked up New Avengers for BMB, but stopped before they got to the Savage Land.

I am trying to collect Disassembled for Finch’s art, and it was just such a spastic story. Everything was nuts, you didn’t know what was going on, even if you knew what was coming.

I will not collect OMD or buy BND because I have no interest in the character anymore. If Peter can’t let go of his Aunt May and is willing to give up his marriage to squeeze a few more years out of her, and if MJ is the kind of character to sympathize with this and go along with it, I am just not interested in anything Joe Q has to say about Spider-Man.

Remember, it’s not like Joe Quesada is alone on not wanting Spider-Man married - there’s a near unanimity among the folks who have worked on Spider-Man the past 15 years or so who just do not like the marriage.

Really? Near-unanamity? If I remember the Spider-Man round table from Back Issue (that you mentioned in one of these damn Spider-man posts) right, it ran about 60/40 Anti Marriage to Pro. And Stan Lee was in the Pro camp.

Really? Near-unanamity? If I remember the Spider-Man round table from Back Issue (that you mentioned in one of these damn Spider-man post