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Top Five Additions to Batman’s Rogues Gallery of the Past 25 Years

Since 1983, who are the top additions to Batman’s notorious gang of villains – his Rogues Gallery?

Find out now!

5. Bane

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Yes, Bane was a silly choice to be the guy who “broke” Batman, but as a villain, he isn’t too shabby.

A mirror image of the self-made paragon Bruce Wayne, Bane also lost his parents at a young age, but Bane was forced to do his father’s term in prison, and decided then to basically be the peak person in the world.

Ultimately, his quest led him to prove himself against Batman, which he did, but only a weakened Batman.

Full strength, Batman kicks Bane’s behind, but Bane is still a formidable foe.

Prometheus almost had this spot, until Gotham Knights ruined him. Black Mask was also a possibility.

4. Ventriloquist and Scarface

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This was an amazing move by Alan Grant, as the idea of a dummy and his ventriloquist being bad guys is SUCH a classic idea, these guys stepped right out of the Golden Age.

Sadly, the original Ventriloquist was killed off, but there’s a replacement one now.

3. Mr. Zsasz

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Alan Grant’s Mr. Zsasz is easily my favorite of the new Rogues, because his gimmick of cutting a notch into his skin every time he kills someone is freaking brilliant.

But Zsasz just plain ol’ isn’t prominent enough to be higher than third. He is rarely even used!

2. Harley Quinn

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It’s awfully tough to NOT pick Harley Quinn, as this cartoon creation of Paul Dini and Bruce Timm is probably the most prominent BRAND NEW addition to the Bat mythos of the past 25 years (Tim Drake, Oracle and Huntress don’t count under the whole BRAND NEW part), but she just spends too much time as a good guy.

1. Killer Croc

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Killer Croc, however, has only occasionally been a sorta kinda good guy, but for the most part, he has been a stalwart member of Batman’s rogues gallery from the moment he was introduced, and I’m sure he’ll continue to be a thorn in Batman’s side for years more – as he has officially reached the “you’re not going to kill him off” stage of the Rogue’s Gallery, which is a truly heady place to be in.

Those are my picks!

Agree? Disagree? Let me know!

70 Comments

I might have placed Bane higher (he did find a way to get at Batman that no one else did, and the Joker was never going to break Bats back), but I’d have a hard time arguing against any of your other picks. Zsasz is a great villain, used well in SOTB (his first appearance?). Didn’t he and Croc become friends around the time of No Man’s Land? I seem to remember Dr. Tomkin’s trying to help him or something…

My memory’s a little fuzzy, but I remember Croc being really pissed at Zsasz but respecting Tompkins’ no violence policy in her hospital area. I certainly don’t remember any friendliness between them in no man’s land.

Early on, Bane was at least kinda interesting. I didn’t care for Knightfall or anything, but I liked the calculating bastard version of him way better than the sucking up to Ra’s or trying to find his daddy versions.

Oh well done, you just get in the 25 mark with Killer Croc! I like Harley and the Vent (original) and Mr Zzazzxxzz? but Bane? Euurgh! A personality-free Doomsday style rampaging steroid abuser in fetish-wear. No ta.

I’ll throw out Bane and toss in another 1983 debutante, the original (not the one in more-recent Robins), Nocturna, she was creepy. And Black Mask was great, too. Oh, I loved those Doug Moench/Gerry Conway/Gene Colan/Don Newton batbooks. Gimme a Showcase!

Man, DC really needs to reprint Alan Grant’s Batman issues in an Absolute volume or something, because I remember those comics ALWAYS being a good read.

Cornelius Stirk came before Zsasz, and even though he’s kind of a Scarecrow knock-off, the two issues that he was in are fantastic. I didn’t like that Zsasz kind of eclipsed him, because Stirk was scarier.

I would put Moench’s “never-revealed” villain above Bane. Sure, he never did anything, but he sure was creepy!

With the exception of Harley Quinn (who should have easily placed #1 on this list)…..not impressed…Zsasz ” rarely used”…must be very true because I know nothing about this guy.

Bane, whatever was good about this guy (which wasn’t much) was forever scared by the Batman and Robin movie appearance….it’ll take thirty years to shake the after effect of that off in a manner much like Batman shaking of the Shadow of Adam West.

Killer Croc….is his real name Curt Connors?

Ventriloquist and Scarface….can somebody just shoot me already?

Can’t believe Hush didn’t get mentioned. That storyline got me reading Batman again…..although I stopped soon after the new Red Hood appeared….another villain…I guess you can call him that…missing from this top five.

I know a lot of fans may not like these two characters…and Hush has been missing in action for some time now….but Bane (Venom lite), A Lizard knock off and two dummies…..man no wonder Batman keeps letting the Joker get away.

Also agree with Martin…Black Mask should have been on the list.

Pat(sadly)NotLoika

February 16, 2008 at 8:21 am

Good list, but I would have given Humpty Dumpty at least an honorable mention.

He hasn’t done much, but he shares that same thing with the Ventriloquist where he seems so perfectly in tune with Batman’s old rogues gallery that you’d never guess he was a newer creation. And he’s just so beautifully tragic/creepy in Slott’s Arkham Asylum.

It’s a bit timid to do the last 25 years, a top 5 list of the last 10 years or last 5 years would be a lot more interesting.

Comics need to come up with more new characters, which means we fans have to recognize the good new ones when they come up.

Zsasz is a good character but I can sort of see why he’s not used often — I mean, he kills randomly with a knife, which rather robs any Batman stories in which he appears of both the Bill Finger-style detection and the soft sci-fi/superhero elements. In the end, it’s Batman versus a scary but motiveless guy with a knife who has a good visual.

Or, to quote Tommy Monaghan when a jailed Zsasz did a Lecter lunge at him from behind the glass: “Thanks, but I’ve seen the movie.”

Can we count the Phantasm?

I swear that Roxy Rocket is the perfect Nightwing villain but that hardly counts here, I suppose.

Bernard the Poet

February 16, 2008 at 9:09 am

“Harley Quinn….is probably the most prominent BRAND NEW addition to the Bat mythos of the past 25 years..”

Wasn’t there a Harley Quinn in the Teen Titans back in the ’70s? I’m sure I saw her in a couple of issues of the Batman Family.

Bane wasn’t wearing fetish gear, he’s wearing a Luchador costume.

Batman Family? That was probably Joker’s Daughter.

Although, really, Harley isn’t THAT far off from the Golden Age Green Lantern villain.

I’d put Black Mask up there as well, especially his swan song in Catwoman.

What happened to Prometheus in Gotham Knights?

I always thought he was one of the best villains in Morrison’s JLA run, how did he get ruined?

Yeah, I’ve just checked. Duella Dent/Joker’s Daughter also went by the name of Harlequin (one word), so the Paul Dini and Bruce Timm character isn’t “brand new”. The same goes for Bane, who has exactly the same origin as a Doug Moench character called The Wraith. He showed up in a double-sized issue around 1985, but was killed off by the end of the story.

How about Carmine Falcone? There should be one Frank Miller creation in your Top 5 and he made the last film.

What? No Magpie? Or The Mime? :P

I agree with the choices. Mr. Szasz is hardly used and I think that works in his favor. He’s scarier the less you see of him, much like The Joker. Szasz also gets bonus points for having a cameo in Batman Begins.

I’m not terribly fond of the new Ventriloquist either. The old one was just so perfectly done. I liked the moment in a recent Detective Comics issue where Harley got sentimental thinking about him and just got wicked pissed at the new female version.

I’ve only ever read one of his stories, but I always thought Anarky was supposed to be a big deal. Has he faded that much into obscurity?

I’d say Black Mask so clearly trumps either Bane or Hush that, if not for Black Mask, you’d have to cut the list of at four.

Yeah, I’ve just checked. Duella Dent/Joker’s Daughter also went by the name of Harlequin (one word), so the Paul Dini and Bruce Timm character isn’t “brand new”.

Eh, it’s two words instead of one. And “Joker’s Daughter” and “Joker’s Lover” are pretty different concepts.

And, like I said, the name “Harlequin” goes back to the Golden Age. (And I think the Molly Harlequin was retired but still in Earth-Two continuity when Batman family had it’s run.)

Prometheus was basically turned into a Hush’s sidekick in Gotham Knights, and was basically a wuss. That title was horrible once Hush was introduced. I’m pretty sure he was in every single issue until the title got cancelled. Don’t writers realize anymore that even if a villain is good (which Hush isn’t) they lose their impact if we see them every single issue?

Surprised to see all the love for Black Mask. All I remember about him is wanting to quit the Bat books during that story right before Bane appeared. Of course, my memory of such things sucks so maybe he’s cooler than I remember.

Out of those five, I think Ventriloquist/Scarface would be my top as far as Batman comics go. Didn’t Batman have Scarface in his trophy room at one point? It always seemed like such a cool and ominous thing to do but then I don’t think I ever found out how he escaped (Cataclysm?). I’ve only seen Harley in the cartoon and, despite liking her, I think I prefer my Joker solo. Bane >blechdouble blechsigh

Grrrr! Comment got smooshed and cut off.

Bane… (blech) and (double blech). Killer Croc and Zsasz… I guess. And I think Manbat is far more of a Lizard analogue than Killer Croc.

Is Anarky not enough of a villain to include here? I guess when optimally written, he should be able to be either a hero or villain (like Deathstroke (sigh).

I didn’t read Gotham Knights but it must’ve really done a number on Prometheus to keep him off this list.

When did Killer Croc go from being a big guy with a skin condition to being a true alligator-man (complete with tail and sharp pointy teeth)? I seem to recall him still being pretty human in NML, but in Hush he was a Lizard-esque mutant.

Fun list, the seemingly willful misunderstanding by the poster above re: Harley Quinn vs. Harelquin aside, I think she’s clearly number one. People who haven’t read Batman in years know who she is, and she injects a lot of fun and danger by enhancing one of Batman’s other villains. Clever, exciting and an organic addition to the gallery. She would easily fit into any era of Batman.

She’s not a news story turned into a character idea like Bane or a boring brick like Killer Croc.

I like Croc, look out, it’s Croc, he’s just not…super interesting, just sort of fun and familiar.

Like Zsasz, like Ventriloquist, good calls.

Loathe Bane but understand his inclusion on the list. People know who he is. Would have liked Hush had his secret identity not been so annoying.

Agree with the comments re: the lamentable also-ran Prometheus became. Loved his concept, but even his original story had a weak ending. He’s defeated the Justice League, but, oops, a whip to the nuts and it’s all over. Not climactic, but…anticlimactic, and now he just seems like the original Calculator instead of scary.

This list was well thought out, I think. 25 years is not too many to go back, since most comics tend to stay mired in 40 year old plot and character cycles anyway. I say, well done.

Still irritated by the “dudes, I wikied it! Harley Quinn is an 80 year old charleton character, so pwned! kthnxbai” guy, but I’ll get over it.

Mr. Zsasz? really? and the KGBeast?

I’m always surprised that the Ventrilquist & Scarface is a fairly recent creation.

I didn’t like Promethus too much even when Morrison wrote him. Black Mask had potential but never really reached it. So I guess Bane ranks favorbly on the evil “Batman” category.

How about the Carmine “The Roman” Falcone who was created in Batman Year One. He was a pretty interesting character.

Still it’s pretty cool Batman’s rogues gallery continues to grow over the the years. He’s basically the kind of character that works in almost any context so it gives him a variety of characters to fight.

Alan Grant’s run on batman is easily my second favorite take ever after the Denny O’Neil stuff.

It’s so slept upon too.

Now, A.J. Lieberman is one of the worst writer’s DC has had in the last 25 years. He ruined Harley Quinn’s book and then had a completely unreadable run on Gotham Knights.

If I could go the rest of my life without hearing about Harley Quinn anymore, it would be a glorious existence. Talk about over-saturated.

Surprised they haven’t started collecting Alan Grants Batman stuff. I’d imagine it’d do pretty well. Especially the stuff with Norman Breyfogle penciling.

I didn’t read Gotham Knights but it must’ve really done a number on Prometheus to keep him off this list.

It really, really did, JG.

I was astonished at how bad it was, even as I was reading it.

Is that the arc with Hush? If Hush is involved it can’t be good.

Yeah, it was with Hush, where Prometheus ends up becoming Hush’s bodyguard.

Lordy.

DIOS: “Mr. Zsasz? really? and the KGBeast?”

The name KGBeast always cracks me up, so that’s at least something.

I read the first couple issues of that Hush arc in Gotham Knights, and it was just terrible. The Loeb Hush thing wasn’t bad until the end, but the only mildly interesting thing about the character was the mystery of his identity. But it sold well, so I guess they had to try to milk it.

Agreeing with Apodaca here. If Batman #663 had actually ended with The Joker brutally killing off Harley Quinn, that would have instantly redeemed it and elevated it to the greatest issue of Morrison’s run.

I agree with most of your choices…

Alan Grant DID write the best new villains in Batman’s already rich rogue gallery.

Mr. Zsasz and Ventriloquist are already classics!
(I have to re-read all of Grant and Breyfogle’s run).

Like a few others here, I would have added Anarky on the list (the guy even had his own limited series!)

Killer Croc is okay too, but in the #1 slot? He wouldn’t rate as high on my list.

Harley Quinn is hard to ignore (especially when drawn by Adam Hughes! “Look me in the eyes!” HA!)

But Bane is a rather boring adversary. The duality of an evil-turned Bruce Wayne/Batman is nothing new. The design hasn’t really aged well at all (too dark 90’s). And good call Bernard the Poet! I remember the Batman Special as well, with the gorgeous Mike Golden art spoiled by very krappy inking. Alas the wasn,t a memorable villain either since I don,t think he ever came back… maybe if he had ”killed” Batman or at least broke his back or something…

I also think that Mike W Barr and Alan Davis’s Phantasm (or was he called this originally?)from Year 2 would be a better choice. Denny O’Neil’s (with Quesada’s designs?) Azrael was just a boring pale copy.

Black Mask is also a good one as well.

Weren’t there any good ones from Moench and Jones run?
(another long run I will have to look up again someday)

I loved the Breyfogle/Grant run, and would buy a hardcover in a second, but must place a pause on the love:

Ratcatcher.

The Reaper was the villain in Year Two.

There were several good villains from the Moench/Jones run. Many of them were for a specific story, and don’t seem to have much else going for them. But the Ogre and the Ape and the dude with the bones (whatever he was called) were pretty cool.

Thanks Mecha-Shiva. I still haven’t reread NML, but that rings more true.

I thought Bane was a fine foil to Batman with a good (enough) origin. He could have been a ‘roid freak that just got lucky and busted the Bat, but instead he was smart enough to wear Batman down before the final confrontation. I can agree with his #5 placing due to his subsequent stories, getting broken down by Jean-Paul, working for Luthor and then Ra’s.

Harley has definitely suffered from over-exposure, but isn’t she great from the concept? A female Joker who isn’t just a Joker retread? In any case, she’s hot, I like her, and I’m glad she’s still in the DCU.

In retrospect, I’d probably put the Ventriloquist in #2 next to Croc. He/she is on such a Silver Age vibe, the character can live forever.

Prometheus, barely an honorable mention. Like the Key, he only works for a short while if a villain’s power is to come up with a way to negate all the top super hero’s powers. It only works for a short while because the villain is either a strawman with no real power, or the resolution is so contrived that you have to relegate the superhero’s success to some non-continuity world.

And Black Mask and Hush should have been given honorable mention. Black Mask killed a sidekick, even if Batman was really torqued at her for starting War Games, and Hush was really fun couple of issues. Comics Should Be Good, but sometimes they should just be fun reads.

Bane was really ruined by the movie. Back in Knightfall, he was cunning and clever. After the movie, he became muscle for hire.

I loved the Ventriloquist and Scarface. I was upset when he was killed.

I also really like Zsasz. And, I agree that he should be used sparingly. I think he’s one good story away from being a major player on the level of Riddler or Poison Ivy. OTOH, he’s also one bad story away from being completly forgotton.

Croc works much better, IMHO, as a muscle for hire than Bane. Mainly because Bane used to be a mastermind. I also think that Croc is “just super enough” for Batman. He’s super powered enough to pose a threat and not super powered enough to wonder why Batman doesn’t ever ask for help.

I thought that Anarky was always intended as a Robin villain, not a Batman one. So, I wouldn’t have espected him in a Batman’s Rogues Gallery list.

Theno

“She’s hot” ranks high among the worst justifications for a comics character ever.

(Also, how creepy is Kevin Smith for naming his daughter after a character seemingly designed as a cartoon writer’s masturbation fantasy?)

Bane was really ruined by the movie. Back in Knightfall, he was cunning and clever. After the movie, he became muscle for hire.

I don’t think it was the movie that did it to him. DC always makes new villains increasingly inept over time. Doomsday, Mongul,Bane, Prometheus, KGBeast…they all eventually become jokes. Marvel does this too.

I’d have put Ventriloquist and Scarface #1–they/he were/was the first onesone I thought of.
And KillerCroc only goes back to 83? I was sure I read a story about him sooner. I had to check it out–but it was in a Feb 83 cover date story–so he actually first appeared in 82–as at that time the cover date was 4 months ahead of the calendar date. But close enough.
It still seems like he’s been around longer.

I remember buying the first Killer Croc issues and the character was an ex-circus freak who wrestled (and killed) alligators. He looked and acted completely different than the modern version.

Anybody remember that idea Darwyn Cooke had for a Batman book that would introduce new villans every issue. That would have been a cool book. We might have had a few keepers by the end of the run.

I don’t think it was the movie that did it to him. DC always makes new villains increasingly inept over time. Doomsday, Mongul,Bane, Prometheus, KGBeast…they all eventually become jokes. Marvel does this too.

I’m torn on the topic.

On the one hand, it sure seems lazy, doesn’t it?

On the other hand, it is pretty darn effective to establish how tough a NEW villain is by having the new villain humiliate an old villain. It’s SO effective that I do not know if I really can blame a writer for doing it.

That said, Doomsday was made lamer for no real reason – same with Bane. Nothing was even served by making them less capable.

KGBeast – not much served there, either.

Mongul served to make Neron look badass, but really, a different villain should have been used, because Mongul was far too useful. In that one crossover, Waid killed off Captain Cold, Captain Boomerang, Heatwave, Weather Wizard, Mirror Master AND Mongul. Toss in him offing Ice a year earlier and, well, wow.

Prometheus served to make Hush look better, but seeing as how Hush was so amazingly lame, it was a wasted effort.

It really, really did, JG.

I was astonished at how bad it was, even as I was reading it.

I liked it. I think I gave it a good review here, years ago.

And, as an aside, the Ventriloquist is my favorite Batman villain.

And I’d probably have put Harley at # 1, almost totally on the strength on MAD LOVE. I can’t remember a better Batman villain-centric story in the last 25 years – That Neil Gaiman Riddler story, maybe?

I can see digging the story (although I’d disagree), but you liked the way Prometheus was handled?

Ummm… I forget. I don’t remember that it bothered me.

Although, come to think, I only read one trade, and I belive there was more story.

Yeah, much as I love Anarky, he’s more of an anti-hero than an out-and-out villain, so good call on leaving him out.

Kroc WAS awesome back in the day, but I have to agree he’s a lamer Lizard these days. Guess writers don’t like to do their research anymore..

I always liked Lock-up, but hey.

-R

Mr. Zsasz??? Really?!? I don’t see that at all. But then, all of the Grant-Breyfogle villains seem lame to me, with the notable exception of the Ventriloquist (Ratcatcher? Anarky?).

Black Mask definitely should have been on the list, as he’s made a much bigger impact on the Bat books than Mr. Zsasz.

Killer Croc deserves a spot on there, but not #1. He’s been made too much of a joke over the years.

And Harley was ROBBED of #1. She’s teh perfect Yin to the Joker’s Yang. The fact that she was introduced on a spinoff cartoon show (which are traditionally the home of lame original villains) makes her all the more exceptional.

Oh, and the Wrath was a Mike W. Barr character, not a Doug Moench one.

Ventriloquist and Clayface suddenly became my favorite Batman villains, solely because of the 90’s animated series. (Given that I didn’t read much Batman as a child or teen, a lot of my “real” introduction to the Bat was from that show.) I hadn’t heard that the original was now dead, but I haven’t been following DC closely since Infinite Crisis.

I probably would’ve had Scarface at 1 and Zsasz at 2, with no Bane in sight.

I love me some Grant/Breyfogle baddies. Maxie Zeus, anyone?

KGBeast – not much served there, either.

Prometheus served to make Hush look better, but seeing as how Hush was so amazingly lame, it was a wasted effort.

KGBeast was similar to Prometheus, in that he was made worse to make a newer character better, but the newer character was so amazingly lame that it was a wasted effort. In the case of KGBeast, that new character was King Snake, a dorky white Brit with a Shadoe Stevens 90 mullet that Chuck Dixon should have realized no one but him would EVER want to use, except maybe as cannon fodder. To think that KGBeast’s credibility was sacrificed in an effort to make King Snake catch on still stings.

Was that it, T?

I thought KGBeast was just made to be a total lackey to all sorts of people (wasn’t he also a sidekick to Lockup?).

KGBeast DID get to kick Bane’s ass at one point!

Maxie Zeus is Denny O’Neil all the way, Bill.

Where’s Hush?!

-M

Where’s Hush?!

-M

Limbo, where he rightfully belongs. :)

I think that was it Brian, it was in the Robin III miniseries, which I think was the Beast’s first appearance after his original debut and the beginning of his moron persona. I remember because there was a lot of fan bitching about it at the time. I think he only became a regular henchman and lackey after that miniseries, and often in Chuck Dixon stories, who was the same guy that misused him in the first place.

So what’s some unmissable stuff for Killer Croc? Serious question: what should I pick up to see him as #1 in the newer gallery?

I’d think Anarky would be ineligible just for being an attempt to turn V into a superhero character, ragardless of his status as a villain or not…

Top 5 Best New Batman Villains of the Last 25 Years :

# 5 – KGBeast, Batman # 417, 1988

# 4 – Harley Quinn, Batman : Harley Quinn, 1999

# 3 – Killer Croc, Detective # 523, 1983

# 2 – Prometheus, New Year’s Evil: Prometheus # 1, 1997

# 1 – The Wraith, Batman Special # 1, 1984

KGBeast is one of the worst Batman villains ever. Even worse than Bane who shouldn’t be on this list either.

The moment I saw the list title I was ready to spit bile if either Zsasz or Scarface/The Ventriloquist was left out, but as they’re both there I’m happy.

It would be nice if Jane Doe was on the list, but I guess she hasn’t been used enough.

What about Zeiss from Brubaker’s Batman run a few years back? I thought he was really cool.

Mind you, I haven’t read anything else with him since that run, so maybe they completely ruined him later.

Has Harley been in any good stories in the mainstream, DCU continuity? I think, no matter how popular she is in other media, that one seminal story centered around the character would be a prerequisite to making the list.

[…] Our Dread Lord and Master’s post about Batman’s “Rogues’ Gallery,” plus a comment in this post about Bastion and his place in the X-Men’s “Rogues’ Gallery” got me thinking about the concept, as you might have expected it would.  Woe betide anyone once I get to thinking! […]

Bane suffers from what I call “Utlimate Villain Syndrome”. Essentially, the villain goes as far as he can in his first major storyline. After breaking Batman’s back, the only thing left for him to do is actually kill Batman. Since that’s not going to ever happen, any subsequent appearances pale in comparison to the first. The same holds true for Doomsday. If Superman can’t be killed and stay dead, any other appearance means Superman wins.

Prometheus was lame. I hated how in first appearence, the JLA acted like morons when he first appeared. He seemed to take each of them down this way:

Prometheus: Hi, my name is Prometheus. I’m here to kick your ass.

Whatever JLA Member Was In That Scene: Stop!

P: Talk talk talk talk talk.

WJMWITS: I mean it! Stop where you are!

P: Talk talk talk talk talk.

WJMWITS: I REALLY MEAN IT THIS TIME! STOP!

P: Talk talk talk talk talk.

Prometheus takes down here. *yawn*.

Ok, maybe it didn’t happen exactly that way, but I just felt like the heroes were lazily and stupidly standing around while he danced circles around. Even Batman, rather than sneaking up on him, chose to strike a *kewl* pose first, and gave P enough time to explain HOW he was going to kick Batman’s ass. All I kept thinking during those isssues was “These morons deserve to have their asses handed to them”. It soured me on the character overall…he deserved to be stuck with Hutch :)

Zsasz does sound like a cool villain and they could definatly do him, along side somebody else of course but it seemed to easy for batman to take him down back in the first movie, and yes it has been confirmed that they are doing a third batman just go to fandango.com and find the comic relief part and warner brothers says they will mak the third. They can’t bring back Scarecrow, cause Batman took his mask. Its unforntunate that they’re probably not going to do harley cause of heath.Killer CRoc and Bane seem far fetched but the Vintrilliquist seems reasonable.Nolan claims that he won’t do either the Penguin or Catwoman.I personally would like to see Ras Al Gul to come back and maybe a realistic physical challenge for Batman that is a new villain.

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