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And Super Smart Characters who do what they think is right when everyone else thinks it's wrong and are damn manipulative about it are the best.

Like Vril Dox.

Well, most super heroes tend to be brawn-based, so it makes sense that their evil opposites have a strength (intelligence) that their heroic foils can't match with sheer power alone. It's why the Leader beat the snot out of the Hulk early in PAD's run.

And Batman is really smart...although I guess that's why he tended to be stereotyped as your walking Deus Ex Machina in the late 90s. (How many times did I hear the joke that if Batman fought Galactus, he'd happen to have a Bat-ultimate Nullifier handy?)

Speaking of PAD, he's issued a call to arms for American comic fans: http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/006040.html

Some of the posters over there (and perhaps even PAD himself) seem to be missing the point of an INTERNATIONAL version of Monopoly.

It's rather ironic that they seem to want American cities to MONOPOLISE the board, don'tcha think?

Eh, anyone who wants to get rid of SHIELD is okay by me. The Marvel universe should just be called the SHIELD universe featuring some Marvel heroes these days. Of course he won't get rid of them, and we'll see how noble Black Widow is for beating up kids and hurting their pets in the end, but a man can dream, can't he?

Has it ever actually been established how the government supposedly killed Cho's parents and it's all SHIELD's fault, or are we just supposed to take it on his word or something?

Because as far as I've read, there's been no evidence to support his claims aside from his ranting.

I'd like to see a story where it's revealed that he's a total sociopath who killed his entire family then blamed it on the mysterious government agency so he could avoid taking responsibility, then he fixated on using the Hulk to distract anyone from figuring it out. Oh, and also he gets rabies from his coyote and starts infecting other people just for shits and giggles. It fits in with his juvenile "I'm 14 and I know what's best for everything and never take responsibilty" mindset remarkably well.

Corky: I haven't read the comments, but I think if you were going to list top cities in the world, then New York would come well ahead of Istanbul. I mean, you can argue New York vs Paris vs Rome vs Hong Kong for most international city, but Istanbul?

Hey, Istanbul is split across two continents. That's pretty freakin' international!

I went to vote, but you have to register, apparently, so F that S.

(As for the subject of comics - this has convinced me to pick up the first few issues of this Herc series. I skipped it at my LCS just an hour ago.)

It strikes me that Marvel has vastly more super-smart heroes than DC. Consider the JLA:
- Superman: College graduate, but probably had much better verbal than math scores on the SAT. Also, he didn't exactly attend an Ivy League school.
- Batman: Obviously, went to an Ivy and is extremely smart.
- Wonder Woman: Not a dummy, but her formal education was sort of limited by what the Amazons has access to. Math probably maxed with Euclidean Geometry, unless they developed their own approach to math and science. No hint of that post-COIE ...
- Flash: Wally West is a college drop-out. He is more clever than smart anyway.
- Green Lantern: Hal Jordan is a dimwit. Kyle Rayner is artistic, but not exactly the type of guy you would ask for help in physics class. John Stewart is easily the smartest GL on Earth, but he is third class in DCU (unlike the Timm-verse).
- Aquaman: Same deal as WW. Atlantis went off on a complete tangent during the Classical Period. However, they showed few signs of developing much beyond Third World status. As a royal, Aquaman is not likely to be more educated than the average Atlantean.
- Martian Manhunter: No idea what they teach on Mars, but is not like J'onn J'onzz made a fortune in technology (i.e. Bowie in "The Man Who Fell To Earth").

The second tier JLAers are even less accomplished for the most part. The Atom is super-smart, but Green Arrow and Black Canary are not bookish types. Ted Cords was bright, but he is dead. The Meltzer characters are not geniuses. Roy Harper was a junkie, Jefferson Pierce a jock and Mari McCabe a model. Red Tornado may be considered mentally challenged, where he human.

On the whole, they are not a brainy group of characters.

Contrast that with Marvel where it seems like half of them have a PHd. Dr. Strange is an MD. Peter Parker has a post-graduate degree. Reed Richards certainly has at least one. Tony Stark is highly educated. A lot of the first class of X-Men graduated and went on to college. Hank McCoy got a post-graduate degree. Professor X is obviously a good teacher as well as brilliant.

The Hulk is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but Bruce Banner is extremely smart. Even Ben Grimm is as educated as Superman and has more than a few I.Q. points on Hal Jordan.

Honestly, who are the dumbest major characters in the Marvel U.? Wolverine, maybe? The Punisher? Neither of whom are nearly as slow witted as Hal Jordan or Reddy.

What else should we do Peter David? Please, please guide us.

Barbara Gordon's supposed to be pretty darn smart, isn't she? And isn't "super-smart" Mr. Terrific's whole gimmick?

Apodaca,fair enough on Barbara Gordon. I totally forgot about her. Also, Mr. Terrific is pretty bright.

However, I stand by the larger point. The Silver Age DCU was branier in general, but currently not so much.

I like the point Dean makes.

Mr. Terrific has been quoted as the 3rd smartest person in the (DCU) world a bit in the last year or so. I'm assuming there are a few villains in the top 5 overall, Lex for sure, Sivana and Morrow are probably up there. When it comes to actually solving a big problem, though, it usually falls to Superman to handle it in a strong-willed but little-thought required way.

OTOH, when Peter needed someone to cure May, or Beast was looking for help during Endangered Species, it seemed like, although they never got any real help, they had many more people to ask. Neither of these problems were solved, but it's not like the Hulk rebuffs threats like Galactus or the Beyonder.

There's more to be said about the DC heroes. Guy Gardner has some kind of postgrad degree. Geo-Force either has one or was working towards one. Hawkman is/was a museum curator; they don't give those jobs to ignorami. Ray Palmer and Ryan Choi are scary smart. Jaime Reyes hasn't completed his education yet but is obviously very bright, although not necessarily in an academic way. Tim Drake is extremely smart. John Henry Irons, same thing. Aqualad had some kind of decent education.

I forgot about Ray, and he's definitely a top tier intellect, as well as Irons. It reminds me to mention Firestorm, in most of his incarnations, he's had a backup brain. I don't know much about Geo-Force, but repeating the "royalty" clause, there's probably some higher education there.

I don't know if I'd agree with including Guy or Hawkman, though. They're not exactly known as brainy guys or even as using their heads. I'd associate them with the word "battle" more than "strategy", although I'm not that well read on their history.

Dr. Midnite
Will Magnus
Prof (Challengers of the Unknown)
Niles Calder

A mention of smart DC comic book heroes without a mention of Brainiac-13? For shame.

Dr Light II is a professional astronomer. She's also apparently has an M.D.

Bruce Gordon (who may or may not count as a superhero, given he's general used as the host of Eclipso) is also a scientist. (There's a neat scene in Countdown to Mystery after Gordon regains the Eclipso powers, where he basically admits that he'd do more using them for scientific research then by using them to fight crime.)

Booster Gold definitely went to college, although it's unclear whether or not he graduated after getting caught throwing football games. Bart Allen at one point read the entire SF Public Library.

Educational attainment is not everything, but it is interesting. Matt Murdock didn't make my first Marvel list and has a law degree. Nor did Don Blake, who was (or is) a Doctor. Hank Pym missed the list and is easily one of the five smartest Marvel scientists.

Part of it is clearly Stan Lee. Nearly every character he created was educated, or a pretty bright teenager. Later Marvel characters are not as credentialed. However, another part is trend away from depicting smart characters in the DCU.

Who are the five best scientists in the DCU (in no particular order)?
1. Ray Palmer
2. Niles Calder
3. Will Mangus
4. Michael Holt
5. Ryan Choi

Not exactly the top tier of DC characters, nor even characters that are featured in monthly books. More to the point, the trend is away from featuring smart and/or educated heroes in the DCU.

I mean, Doctor Midnite? The dude has got to be in his 90s. But, he is the premier physician in the DCU as near as I can tell. Barry Allen was a police scientist, Wally is a college drop-out and they tried to replace him with Bart who appears to have never completed grammar school. John Stewart is an Architect (which requires seven years of college) and Guy Gardner is a lawyer (also seven), but both are shunted to the side for a dunce like Hal Jordan.

Ted Cord was an inventor, while Jamie Reyes is High Schooler. As The Question, Vic Sage was involved in objectivism and Eastern philosophy. Renee Montoya is an alcoholic ex-cop. Hawkman used to be an archaeologist and Green Arrow a left-wing political activist, etc.

So, in addition to Stan Lee creating a bunch of very smart characters to start the Marvel U., DC has been dumbing down their legacy characters. Some of these moves are great. The Baron and Messner-Loebs runs on the Wally West Flash were some of the best comics that I have ever read. I hear great things about the new Blue Beetle, but the overall trend is there.

Guy Gardner is a lawyer?

(that's a different Dr. Midnite - the one who would be in his 90s is dead)

Going to college shouldn't amount to much unless its mentioned to be a like an Ivy leaguge college or other respectable college. I know a lot of not smart people who put in four years and still can't buy a vowel. So Booster Gold attending college to play ball doesn't mean a whole lot.

Least smart major character in the MU?

How about The Human Torch, also Captain America (who Stan Lee didn't create).

Add the Black Panther to your Marvel list of incredably smart characters.

Guy Gardner graduated from University of Michigan with a double major in Education and Psychology. He never actually went to Law school,although it has been mentioned that he "dabbled" a bit, and took some classes.

Then he went and got brain-dead, but that was really Hal's fault.

That whole "3rd Smartest Man in the DC Universe" thing... I've often wondered, who's #1 and #2?

Since Morrison's run on JLA, I've assumed it's a tie between Lex Luthor and Batman for number one, but is it possible there's an actual ranking somewhere?

Meh, Amadeus has only been mildly interesting either way for me. I'm thinking this may have been a last ditch effort to salvage his character and make him worthwhile.

But honestly, the Herc book is pretty decent. It's a neat take on what the mythical characters do with themselves after forced registration.

"Jefferson Pierce a jock"

Yep, and that right there disqualifies him from being smart, apparently. No hope of post-graduate degrees or posts like Secretary of Education or anything...

With fictional characters you can make up any generalities you want to support an argument...I guess that's part of the fun.

But I always love seeing this one in the comics/SF/Fandom world: if you're a jock, you can't be smart.

Sore sport as an ex-jock, I guess.

"Has it ever actually been established how the government supposedly killed Cho’s parents and it’s all SHIELD’s fault, or are we just supposed to take it on his word or something?"

It's not just him ranting; he had a number of stories in Amazing Fantasy where secret agents of *some* kind definitely killed his parents and sent him on the run. It's not been clearly established whether they were with SHIELD, per se, but considering that no rival agencies seem to be chasing him currently, it seems logical. So, to the extent that we can trust Marvel stories to be connected and not be retconned...

Unless that's just what Mephisto wants everybody to remember, that is.

I've long thought that, as a general trend with many exceptions, DC likes powerful heroes and smart villains and Marvel likes to give the brawn to the villains and make the heroes use brains, teamwork or Weird Science Asspulls.

And while we're listing characters, I have to point out that Cable graduated Harvard Law School and Deadpool is almost certainly Marvel's dumbest and least educated major character (unless you count juvenile heroes).

I’ve long thought that, as a general trend with many exceptions, DC likes powerful heroes and smart villains and Marvel likes to give the brawn to the villains and make the heroes use brains, teamwork or Weird Science Asspulls.

No, DC likes smart and powerful heroes and villains who are not powerful but are smart...but still dumber than the heroes. So basically, DC likes villains that are much weaker than the heroes.

Amadeus Cho sounds pretty Mary-Suish...haven't read anything with him, but he sounds like Marvel's Connor Hawke?

My bad on the Jefferson Pierce comment.

Of course a jock can be highly educated. He was a High School teacher, which requires at least a BA and perhaps a Master's. I think that in many states that effects pay. That makes him one of three (3) members of the current JLA with a BA, or better. He could easily be the most educated current member. However, there are exactly zero with a science background. I don't think anyone would want their H.S. History teacher figuring out how to build a nano-dingus to stop Galactus.

That Guy Gardner is not a lawyer is news to me. I thought he was Hal's public defender in 'Emerald Dawn'. Although, that could easily have been punched away for all I know. Is there a lawyer in the JSA-JLA-Teen Titans network with Jean Loring ... unavailable?

It strikes me that this really limits where the DCU can go. You can't do courtroom stories without setting up a new character. You can't really do medical stories either. With Lex back in Mad Scientist mode, there aren't really business stories in the DCU anymore, nor political stories. There is no entry character to tell a psychological story (i.e. Doc Sampson). If neither of the Atoms are available, who explains the science? Who is the second best DCU detective with Ralph Dinby dead? Vic Sage, maybe?

Oh, he is dead too.

Who is the second best DCU detective with Ralph Dinby dead? Vic Sage, maybe?
Oh, he is dead too.

Are you dissing Detective Chimp?

No, DC likes smart and powerful heroes and villains who are not powerful but are smart…but still dumber than the heroes. So basically, DC likes villains that are much weaker than the heroes.

Or, to phrase it another way, DC stories tend to deal more with emotional/psychological stakes/threats than the more physical Marvel villains.

I believe Guy Gardner was Hal's social worker or parole officer or something, going off his psychology degree. So the scenes you're remembering probably did exist (although they still may have been punched away).

The first heroic DC lawyer that pops to mind is Manhunter. And who explains the science if the Atom isn't around? I'd guess Batman. Who's scond best dective in the DCU? Probably Oracle. Now, who's the first best in the Marvel Universe?

It’s not just him ranting; he had a number of stories in Amazing Fantasy where secret agents of *some* kind definitely killed his parents and sent him on the run.

I guess 1 is "a number."

I think the proliferation of super-intelegent Marvel heroes is a reflection of the changing face of America in in between the Golden Age and the Silver Age.

Where as Golden Age heroes are rough strewned adventures, working class heroes who were just as likely to be blue collar heroes who were working on railroads (Green Lantern), a boxer (Wildcat), a beat cop (Blue Beetle) or skipped college to go off to fight in the war (Captain America). When you look at the 30's and 40's, that was America's labor pool. Sure you had doctors, and lawyers, and astronomers, and archeologists, but that wasn't America at the time. America was strongly blue collar.

But in 61 science fiction became science fact. Sputnik launched, Russia put a man into orbit, and look what that did to the Marvel Universe. The Fantastic Four launched in 61, and when the head of the "first family" of the Marvel Universe holds is a man who attended MIT, Cal Tec, Harvard, and Collumbia, every character after that is going to have some sort of "super smarts" incorporated into their character just to keep up.

America changed gears, Marvel was there to capture it.

Scott, I read Amazing Fantasy #15. Cho's entire storyline begins with his parents already dead and him on the run. The killing of his family has never been shown and we have no evidence outside of his own claims that "secret agents" killed them. And maybe SHIELD is chasing him because he's been pursuing a vendetta against them and has racked up millions of dollars in property damage while fleeing from them already, not mention aiding and abetting the Hulk, who last time I checked, leveled Manhattan?