Comments on: The List http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/ Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good! Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:32:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Comics Should Be Good! » How We Watch the Watchmen http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-697208 Comics Should Be Good! » How We Watch the Watchmen Mon, 15 Dec 2008 18:14:38 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-697208 [...] content around here again, I’m presenting you with this little paper I wrote for that graphic novel course you helped me invent last Spring. Prepare yourself for in-text [...] [...] content around here again, I’m presenting you with this little paper I wrote for that graphic novel course you helped me invent last Spring. Prepare yourself for in-text [...]

]]> By: Grant http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-659795 Grant Thu, 01 May 2008 22:18:10 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-659795 Neat. Another one I voted for. I kind of bummed out my #1 pick hasn't made the list (everything else I think made it) and I doubt it will be number 1. I generally picked comics that were important to ME. So this would qualify (even though I never read the run in it's entirety until a few years ago). Neat. Another one I voted for. I kind of bummed out my #1 pick hasn't made the list (everything else I think made it) and I doubt it will be number 1.

I generally picked comics that were important to ME. So this would qualify (even though I never read the run in it's entirety until a few years ago).

]]> By: Rusty Priske http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-613640 Rusty Priske Thu, 20 Mar 2008 13:07:43 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-613640 Hmmm... I am not a big fan of We3, and I definitely would include Death of Speedy. The rest of the list looks pretty solid. Hmmm... I am not a big fan of We3, and I definitely would include Death of Speedy.

The rest of the list looks pretty solid.

]]> By: Dan (other Dan) http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-613128 Dan (other Dan) Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:49:07 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-613128 It was really edifying to work on that list. I've made a good size reading list from it myself--thanks! A Contract with God has a lot of clout, but I would consider replacing it with A Life Force. I think it does a better job of placing the themes of A Contract with God into narrative. I agree that a diversity of authorship should be expressed in the course. The works are less common, but they are still there to choose from. It's important to keep in mind that you are selecting comics not necessarily because you like them, but because they are worthy of academic examination. It was really edifying to work on that list. I've made a good size reading list from it myself--thanks!

A Contract with God has a lot of clout, but I would consider replacing it with A Life Force. I think it does a better job of placing the themes of A Contract with God into narrative.

I agree that a diversity of authorship should be expressed in the course. The works are less common, but they are still there to choose from.

It's important to keep in mind that you are selecting comics not necessarily because you like them, but because they are worthy of academic examination.

]]> By: Luke Stacks http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-612584 Luke Stacks Thu, 20 Mar 2008 02:15:47 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-612584 The literary canon is brimming with white males, but in the past 40 years scholars have expanded this canon significantly to include works that have been neglected due to racism, sexism or the mere blind spots of limited experience. Today I can't imagine an introductory course to any other modern literary genre that would ignore the contributions of women or people of color--consider the examples of crime and science fiction. I understand the desire to avoid multiple autobiographical works--but women (to use one group) write acclaimed graphic fiction too. If the committee is anything like the ones I encounter, they will insist on diversity of both style and authorship. The literary canon is brimming with white males, but in the past 40 years scholars have expanded this canon significantly to include works that have been neglected due to racism, sexism or the mere blind spots of limited experience. Today I can't imagine an introductory course to any other modern literary genre that would ignore the contributions of women or people of color--consider the examples of crime and science fiction. I understand the desire to avoid multiple autobiographical works--but women (to use one group) write acclaimed graphic fiction too. If the committee is anything like the ones I encounter, they will insist on diversity of both style and authorship.

]]> By: Red Scharlach http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-612470 Red Scharlach Thu, 20 Mar 2008 01:07:57 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-612470 WE3 is far from a poor choice, despite the nay-sayers: It's a great achievement in story-telling, graphic design, page-layout, you name it, and far more cerebral than it seems to be given credit for here. Should allow for a lot of thought in any case. WE3 is far from a poor choice, despite the nay-sayers: It's a great achievement in story-telling, graphic design, page-layout, you name it, and far more cerebral than it seems to be given credit for here. Should allow for a lot of thought in any case.

]]> By: Greg Burgas http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-612360 Greg Burgas Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:58:24 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-612360 Mia's OT is actually going to give me Maus, because I've never read it and she had it assigned in college. It's always nice to see comics get a collegiate treatment. I like Mystery Play too, Bill. Of course, I don't really get it, either. Mia's OT is actually going to give me Maus, because I've never read it and she had it assigned in college. It's always nice to see comics get a collegiate treatment.

I like Mystery Play too, Bill. Of course, I don't really get it, either.

]]> By: Steve http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611974 Steve Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:26:58 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611974 I wish I had seen this last week, Bill. I've been integrating comics into my courses for a couple of semesters now (English prof in Detroit...focus on using issues raised through comics to look at ways to critically think about our own realities; ex. using Aaron McGruder's "Birth of a Nation" to examine how race issues are explored in some media forms and from various perspectives such as stereotype use, jokes, etc...more to it, but you get the idea). From what I'm seeing, the list looks good. I've used Watchmen, Understanding Comics, and Maus on a regular basis to good effect, but depending on how your course is structured, Watchmen may be problematic (it usually takes undergrads 3 weeks to get through it, and more than a few get lost...for most it's a whole new way of reading). Other ideas for the future: my focus is critical thought/social issues, so I also toss in occasionally the 9-11 report comic, the 9-11 comics from Dark Horse/DC from 01, some Transmet (which we're doing today in about 20 minutes..."Lust for Life" is a solid book to explore things like technology critically with), Dark Knight Returns (didn't go over so well) or mix the comics with some novelizations/plays as well (Orwell's Animal Farm works well if you want to compare comics to lit from a mental visualization standpoint and discuss allegorical representation with Maus). My two cents. Good luck with the class. I wish I had seen this last week, Bill. I've been integrating comics into my courses for a couple of semesters now (English prof in Detroit...focus on using issues raised through comics to look at ways to critically think about our own realities; ex. using Aaron McGruder's "Birth of a Nation" to examine how race issues are explored in some media forms and from various perspectives such as stereotype use, jokes, etc...more to it, but you get the idea).

From what I'm seeing, the list looks good. I've used Watchmen, Understanding Comics, and Maus on a regular basis to good effect, but depending on how your course is structured, Watchmen may be problematic (it usually takes undergrads 3 weeks to get through it, and more than a few get lost...for most it's a whole new way of reading).

Other ideas for the future: my focus is critical thought/social issues, so I also toss in occasionally the 9-11 report comic, the 9-11 comics from Dark Horse/DC from 01, some Transmet (which we're doing today in about 20 minutes..."Lust for Life" is a solid book to explore things like technology critically with), Dark Knight Returns (didn't go over so well) or mix the comics with some novelizations/plays as well (Orwell's Animal Farm works well if you want to compare comics to lit from a mental visualization standpoint and discuss allegorical representation with Maus).

My two cents. Good luck with the class.

]]> By: Brian Cronin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611795 Brian Cronin Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:40:32 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611795 I remember when I was in college, there was this joke - "No one will ever approve of using comics, but they will award-winning graphic novels." I just thought about that, in regards to Maus. Folks really do underestimate how easy it is to get folks to approve of Maus, so yeah, I'd say you'd have to use it (and it's not like it is not a great book, as well). That said, yeah, maybe you could sneak a book in by someone other than white guys. :) I remember when I was in college, there was this joke - "No one will ever approve of using comics, but they will award-winning graphic novels."

I just thought about that, in regards to Maus. Folks really do underestimate how easy it is to get folks to approve of Maus, so yeah, I'd say you'd have to use it (and it's not like it is not a great book, as well).

That said, yeah, maybe you could sneak a book in by someone other than white guys. :)

]]> By: Jeff R. http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611780 Jeff R. Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:28:48 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611780 I'd have wanted some Gaiman on the list. Excluding multi-volume works cuts you down to the three OGNs, and, alas, Violent Cases isn't in print right now, but either Signal to Noise or Mr. Punch would do in a pinch. I'd have wanted some Gaiman on the list. Excluding multi-volume works cuts you down to the three OGNs, and, alas, Violent Cases isn't in print right now, but either Signal to Noise or Mr. Punch would do in a pinch.

]]> By: Bill Reed http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611777 Bill Reed Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:24:59 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611777 <blockquote>one more thing . . . all of the above comics are anglo, and they are all made by dudes.</blockquote> True, but the same can be said for most literature classes, if you think about it. While I did debate putting Fun Home and Persepolis on the list, I ended up feeling they were too similar to Maus, and wanted to limit the amount of non- or semi-fiction on the list. Maus fills the black-and-white-memoir-of-difficult-times niche, and it has that nice Pulitzer going for it-- easier to convince the right people. Having never read Black Hole and not knowing much about it, I went with it thanks to the recommendations here and the glowing reviews everywhere else. I didn't know there were so many Mystery Play haters. Where were you guys when I wrote about it last summer? Heh. Anyway, I like it, at least. I debated putting the Filth in the Morrison slot (in the proposal, I called Morrison comics' Burroughs or Pynchon; you gotta have him in there), but it seems just too weird. Haven't read it yet myself, either. (And naturally, I'd put in Flex Mentallo were it not for the fact that the only place you can find it is in a torrent file.) My plan was to keep the list diverse both in terms of story and visuals, as well as subject matter, while still making sure everything was of importance to the form or of high acclaim (preferably both), and geared toward those who are not experienced with the comics medium whilst still pleasing those who are. It's not perfect, but I think it'll do. I guess we'll see how it goes.

one more thing . . . all of the above comics are anglo, and they are all made by dudes.

True, but the same can be said for most literature classes, if you think about it. While I did debate putting Fun Home and Persepolis on the list, I ended up feeling they were too similar to Maus, and wanted to limit the amount of non- or semi-fiction on the list. Maus fills the black-and-white-memoir-of-difficult-times niche, and it has that nice Pulitzer going for it-- easier to convince the right people.

Having never read Black Hole and not knowing much about it, I went with it thanks to the recommendations here and the glowing reviews everywhere else.

I didn't know there were so many Mystery Play haters. Where were you guys when I wrote about it last summer? Heh. Anyway, I like it, at least. I debated putting the Filth in the Morrison slot (in the proposal, I called Morrison comics' Burroughs or Pynchon; you gotta have him in there), but it seems just too weird. Haven't read it yet myself, either. (And naturally, I'd put in Flex Mentallo were it not for the fact that the only place you can find it is in a torrent file.)

My plan was to keep the list diverse both in terms of story and visuals, as well as subject matter, while still making sure everything was of importance to the form or of high acclaim (preferably both), and geared toward those who are not experienced with the comics medium whilst still pleasing those who are. It's not perfect, but I think it'll do.

I guess we'll see how it goes.

]]> By: Andrew Collins http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611772 Andrew Collins Wed, 19 Mar 2008 18:20:48 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611772 Graeme Burk said: "I’d have picked Flex Mentallo" It would be an excellent choice but you'd be forced to make your students spend a fortune on eBay collecting the issues. DC apparently has no plans to reprint it anytime soon according to Morrison. Such is the sway that Charles Atlas apparently holds over the publisher... Graeme Burk said:
"I’d have picked Flex Mentallo"

It would be an excellent choice but you'd be forced to make your students spend a fortune on eBay collecting the issues. DC apparently has no plans to reprint it anytime soon according to Morrison. Such is the sway that Charles Atlas apparently holds over the publisher...

]]> By: FSogol http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611702 FSogol Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:48:32 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611702 Your list lacks the diversity required for a college course and will open yourself up to criticism. Suggestions: Drop Chris Ware and add Gilbert Hernandez. Drop WE3 and add Titin. Drop the Mystery Play and add Perespolis. Your list lacks the diversity required for a college course and will open yourself up to criticism. Suggestions: Drop Chris Ware and add Gilbert Hernandez. Drop WE3 and add Titin. Drop the Mystery Play and add Perespolis.

]]> By: Graeme Burk http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611691 Graeme Burk Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:38:34 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611691 I have to say I'm disappointed in the Morrison choices. I don't think Mystery Play is all that hot and We3 is a bit too much sentimental favourites. I'd have picked Flex Mentallo or (multi-volume though it is) The Invisibles: Entropy In The UK as more intersting tomes in Morrison's oeuvre. I'd probably pick From Hell over Watchmen. And anything but Black Hole! I have to say I'm disappointed in the Morrison choices. I don't think Mystery Play is all that hot and We3 is a bit too much sentimental favourites. I'd have picked Flex Mentallo or (multi-volume though it is) The Invisibles: Entropy In The UK as more intersting tomes in Morrison's oeuvre.

I'd probably pick From Hell over Watchmen.

And anything but Black Hole!

]]> By: BDillon http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611661 BDillon Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:18:18 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611661 I'd gladly add this course to my class load. I'd gladly add this course to my class load.

]]> By: sebastian http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611653 sebastian Wed, 19 Mar 2008 17:13:16 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611653 Since there's been a lot of back and forth about picking We3 or Mystery Play, I just want to put in a vote for you to pick Mystery Play. If you need a reason, why not go with Grant Morrison himself saying it is the most perfect distillation of his ideas. Discuss. That's my single cent. My second cent would be spent saying I just love Mystery Play, even though I know it's pretty self indulgent. Since there's been a lot of back and forth about picking We3 or Mystery Play, I just want to put in a vote for you to pick Mystery Play. If you need a reason, why not go with Grant Morrison himself saying it is the most perfect distillation of his ideas. Discuss. That's my single cent. My second cent would be spent saying I just love Mystery Play, even though I know it's pretty self indulgent.

]]> By: sean http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611593 sean Wed, 19 Mar 2008 16:27:09 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611593 I'd go with 'Mystery Play' over 'We3', because 'We3' is amazing and perfect and doesn't really need a lot of discussion, whereas I'd like to have an academic conversation about 'Mystery Play'. It might change my mind on the subject -- I thought it was one of his most shallow and empty works, filled with a lot of obvious and pointless symbolism. 'Seaguy' wouldn't work for this project, since it is not self-contained. Part 2 is coming out soon. I'd go with 'Mystery Play' over 'We3', because 'We3' is amazing and perfect and doesn't really need a lot of discussion, whereas I'd like to have an academic conversation about 'Mystery Play'. It might change my mind on the subject -- I thought it was one of his most shallow and empty works, filled with a lot of obvious and pointless symbolism.

'Seaguy' wouldn't work for this project, since it is not self-contained. Part 2 is coming out soon.

]]> By: rob http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611438 rob Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:28:57 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611438 I'd have added American Born Chinese to the list. Not sure what I would have dropped from it, but ABC deserves a spot on it. I'd have added American Born Chinese to the list. Not sure what I would have dropped from it, but ABC deserves a spot on it.

]]> By: Alex_W http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611409 Alex_W Wed, 19 Mar 2008 14:06:45 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611409 Great list man. Just another voice saying Morrison is a great inclusion, and WE3 over Mystery Play, but Seaguy over both. Really for Mystery Play, what are you going to talk about? For WE3 you've got the story telling techniques, switching between those tiny panels and double pages splashes, the sparse dialogue and how the reading speed is so wonderfully controlled throughout; the balance between writer and artist can come into play a lot there too. But Seaguy is a helluva message book too about futility and whatnot, and you can look at how the conventional superhero style is used to frame this more effectively. Good luck with it! Great list man. Just another voice saying Morrison is a great inclusion, and WE3 over Mystery Play, but Seaguy over both.

Really for Mystery Play, what are you going to talk about? For WE3 you've got the story telling techniques, switching between those tiny panels and double pages splashes, the sparse dialogue and how the reading speed is so wonderfully controlled throughout; the balance between writer and artist can come into play a lot there too. But Seaguy is a helluva message book too about futility and whatnot, and you can look at how the conventional superhero style is used to frame this more effectively.

Good luck with it!

]]> By: The Mutt http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/comment-page-1/#comment-611357 The Mutt Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:23:27 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/18/the-list/#comment-611357 The only one I would quibble with is WE3. I found it hard to follow and I've had 40+ years of practice reading graphic storytelling. A novice comic reader might find impenetrable. Maybe you should save that one for second semester. The only one I would quibble with is WE3. I found it hard to follow and I've had 40+ years of practice reading graphic storytelling. A novice comic reader might find impenetrable. Maybe you should save that one for second semester.

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