Comments on: MAJOR Ruling in the Siegel Superman Case http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/ Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good! Sun, 08 Nov 2009 10:18:10 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Leocomix http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-634790 Leocomix Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:35:34 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-634790 Not necessarily. First they co-own it until 2013. If Shuster's heir get the second half in 2013, it's a problem for Dc as they can't use the super-powered alien from Krypton who has a double identity as a mild-mannered reporter and Lois Lane. They still own the TM Superman and can use it on another character (they did that already, there is the Tangent character) So their options are: change the costume, change the powers, change the double identity, remove Lois Lane, which are several things DC already did but doing it for twenty years... By 2033 it becomes public domain and they can make Superman's return and reuse all the elements. Not necessarily. First they co-own it until 2013. If Shuster's heir get the second half in 2013, it's a problem for Dc as they can't use the super-powered alien from Krypton who has a double identity as a mild-mannered reporter and Lois Lane. They still own the TM Superman and can use it on another character (they did that already, there is the Tangent character)
So their options are: change the costume, change the powers, change the double identity, remove Lois Lane, which are several things DC already did but doing it for twenty years...
By 2033 it becomes public domain and they can make Superman's return and reuse all the elements.

]]> By: Kevin Riddle http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-634288 Kevin Riddle Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:42:04 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-634288 Time Warner will wind up paying the estate whatever they want to keep the character. The Big S brings in millions of dollars in merchandising revenue alone. Time Warner will wind up paying the estate whatever they want to keep the character. The Big S brings in millions of dollars in merchandising revenue alone.

]]> By: Grant http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-633575 Grant Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:12:57 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-633575 "For those of you who are of the “no one forced them to sell for a small amount” crowd, please keep in mind just how long ago this was. This was quite unpresedented. There is no reason to expect that the young Siegal and Shuster could have predicted the sucess of their creation." Also this was during the depression and people were desperate to make even a little bit of money. I'm not too worried. DC/Time Warner needs Superman and the Superman in Action Comics 1 isn't as profitable as the Superman that we have today (can't fly, no kryptonite, Lex Luthor). They'll work out some sort of aggreement, Time Warner will have to shell out a little bit more money and life will go on. "For those of you who are of the “no one forced them to sell for a small amount” crowd, please keep in mind just how long ago this was. This was quite unpresedented. There is no reason to expect that the young Siegal and Shuster could have predicted the sucess of their creation."

Also this was during the depression and people were desperate to make even a little bit of money.

I'm not too worried. DC/Time Warner needs Superman and the Superman in Action Comics 1 isn't as profitable as the Superman that we have today (can't fly, no kryptonite, Lex Luthor). They'll work out some sort of aggreement, Time Warner will have to shell out a little bit more money and life will go on.

]]> By: Thenodrin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-633317 Thenodrin Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:10:39 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-633317 For those of you who are of the "no one forced them to sell for a small amount" crowd, please keep in mind just how long ago this was. This was quite unpresedented. There is no reason to expect that the young Siegal and Shuster could have predicted the sucess of their creation. Just as the incredible screwing of Judd and Krikfalushi (sp?) by MTV over Beavis and Butthead and Ren and Stimpy just a few years (decades? where has the time gone) ago. The fact that these people got screwed over did make for people like the South Park creators being more wary about what contracts they signed. But, I think that some sympathy should go to the people who got screwed in the first place. Especially since they are really just using the law to try and recover a bit of what they are rightfully owed, the same way that the law was used against them so many years ago when they didn't know any better. Theno For those of you who are of the "no one forced them to sell for a small amount" crowd, please keep in mind just how long ago this was. This was quite unpresedented. There is no reason to expect that the young Siegal and Shuster could have predicted the sucess of their creation.

Just as the incredible screwing of Judd and Krikfalushi (sp?) by MTV over Beavis and Butthead and Ren and Stimpy just a few years (decades? where has the time gone) ago.

The fact that these people got screwed over did make for people like the South Park creators being more wary about what contracts they signed. But, I think that some sympathy should go to the people who got screwed in the first place.

Especially since they are really just using the law to try and recover a bit of what they are rightfully owed, the same way that the law was used against them so many years ago when they didn't know any better.

Theno

]]> By: red-Ricky http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632944 red-Ricky Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:10:53 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632944 <blockquote> “The flow” of Superman comics won’t stop; it’s just that the usage fee will be smaller because half of it will go to the Siegel heirs. </blockquote> <i>Edit: </i> “The flow” of Superman comics won’t stop; it’s just that the net revenue will be smaller because half of the usage fee will go to the Siegel heirs.

“The flow” of Superman comics won’t stop; it’s just that the usage fee will be smaller because half of it will go to the Siegel heirs.

Edit:
“The flow” of Superman comics won’t stop; it’s just that the net revenue will be smaller because half of the usage fee will go to the Siegel heirs.

]]> By: red-Ricky http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632783 red-Ricky Sun, 30 Mar 2008 10:46:55 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632783 You know, I would love to egg on these posters with the notion that in 1980 DC outright bought the rights to Captain Marvel, and can continue publishing "his" comics beyond 2033; with him leading the Justice League and starring in all the Countdowns, Arenas & Trinities that your heart could desire. But the fact of the matter is that "Superman", it's ownership, trademarks and copyrights are ASSETS (like Land); and DC, Time-Warner and all the people involve already charge themselves (and others) a fee for its usage. It's basic Cost Accounting 101. I should know, I amortized Smokey the Bear for USDA's 2001 Financial Statements. Anyways, "The flow" of Superman comics won't stop; it's just that the usage fee will be smaller because half of it will go to the Siegel heirs. If I were DC, I would hedge my bets by arranging an exclusive long-term contract with the Shuster heirs, so as to secure the exclusive rights through 2033. After that... well, they can still enforce their trademarks. It's like the Fleischer Superman Cartoons. They are in the public domain; but you have to be very carefull as to "how" you sell them. You know,

I would love to egg on these posters with the notion that in 1980 DC outright bought the rights to Captain Marvel, and can continue publishing "his" comics beyond 2033; with him leading the Justice League and starring in all the Countdowns, Arenas & Trinities that your heart could desire.

But the fact of the matter is that "Superman", it's ownership, trademarks and copyrights are ASSETS (like Land); and DC, Time-Warner and all the people involve already charge themselves (and others) a fee for its usage. It's basic Cost Accounting 101. I should know, I amortized Smokey the Bear for USDA's 2001 Financial Statements.

Anyways,

"The flow" of Superman comics won't stop; it's just that the usage fee will be smaller because half of it will go to the Siegel heirs.

If I were DC, I would hedge my bets by arranging an exclusive long-term contract with the Shuster heirs, so as to secure the exclusive rights through 2033.

After that... well, they can still enforce their trademarks. It's like the Fleischer Superman Cartoons. They are in the public domain; but you have to be very carefull as to "how" you sell them.

]]> By: SKFK http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632471 SKFK Sun, 30 Mar 2008 04:13:09 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632471 Thanks a lot for the answer, Brian. I forgot about the different standards for copyrighted material created before the changes in the law. Thanks a lot for the answer, Brian. I forgot about the different standards for copyrighted material created before the changes in the law.

]]> By: Brian Cronin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632460 Brian Cronin Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:59:23 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632460 It's totally understandable how that could be confusing, SKFK. Those laws you mention are for more recent copyrights (and all future copyrights). Old copyrights, like Superman, just got a flat extra 20 years, making it a flat 95 years, so 2033. It's totally understandable how that could be confusing, SKFK.

Those laws you mention are for more recent copyrights (and all future copyrights). Old copyrights, like Superman, just got a flat extra 20 years, making it a flat 95 years, so 2033.

]]> By: SKFK http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632451 SKFK Sun, 30 Mar 2008 03:44:05 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632451 Brian, I have a question about the public domain thing. You stated that Superman will enter the public domain in 2033 under the current copyright law. But isn't the copyright terms different when it's owned by the individual creators and their estates? I thought the copyright terms were 95 years in case of corporate ownership, and creators' lifetime plus 70 years in case of creator ownership. Since Siegel passed away in 1996, I thought his heirs' portion of the Superman copyright would not become public domain until 2066. Or is it different when the copyright is reclaimed from corporate ownership? Brian, I have a question about the public domain thing. You stated that Superman will enter the public domain in 2033 under the current copyright law. But isn't the copyright terms different when it's owned by the individual creators and their estates? I thought the copyright terms were 95 years in case of corporate ownership, and creators' lifetime plus 70 years in case of creator ownership. Since Siegel passed away in 1996, I thought his heirs' portion of the Superman copyright would not become public domain until 2066. Or is it different when the copyright is reclaimed from corporate ownership?

]]> By: Brian Cronin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632393 Brian Cronin Sun, 30 Mar 2008 01:58:16 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632393 The latest piece of confusion seems to be over what having the copyright to Action Comics #1 entails. When people talk about the whole limits of what it copyrights (no heat vision, no expanded origin,etc.), that is just a limit of what the Siegels can use...DC, meanwhile, if they lose the copyright in 2013, would ONLY get access to the post-Action Comics #1 stuff, which is effectively useless for DC.No alien from Krypton, no Clark Kent, no Lois Lane, no...well, everything else that was in that story. The latest piece of confusion seems to be over what having the copyright to Action Comics #1 entails. When people talk about the whole limits of what it copyrights (no heat vision, no expanded origin,etc.), that is just a limit of what the Siegels can use...DC, meanwhile, if they lose the copyright in 2013, would ONLY get access to the post-Action Comics #1 stuff, which is effectively useless for DC.No alien from Krypton, no Clark Kent, no Lois Lane, no...well, everything else that was in that story.

]]> By: Michael http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632345 Michael Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:38:01 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632345 Actually, km, I think they believe it will result in no DC Universe anywhere anymore ever. Or at least not as it exists now. Actually, km, I think they believe it will result in no DC Universe anywhere anymore ever. Or at least not as it exists now.

]]> By: km http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632294 km Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:26:35 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632294 I can see the logic on both sides of the debate re: compensation, but have a really, really hard time understanding where all the vitriol against the Siegels is coming from anyway. As several brave souls tried to point out on the Newsarama thread...they had a <i>legal recourse</i>, and they took it, and it was granted to them. This doesn't make them 'good' or 'bad', 'idealistic' or 'greedy'; it makes them shrewd and practical. Same way DC/TimeWarner behaved in their turn. <blockquote>But all it takes is any threat of the flow of superhero comics even slowing down and the lynch mob forms in seconds.</blockquote> This is the other part that's freaking me out. There are people who seriously believe this will result in no Superman anywhere anymore ever? I can see the logic on both sides of the debate re: compensation, but have a really, really hard time understanding where all the vitriol against the Siegels is coming from anyway.

As several brave souls tried to point out on the Newsarama thread...they had a legal recourse, and they took it, and it was granted to them. This doesn't make them 'good' or 'bad', 'idealistic' or 'greedy'; it makes them shrewd and practical. Same way DC/TimeWarner behaved in their turn.

But all it takes is any threat of the flow of superhero comics even slowing down and the lynch mob forms in seconds.

This is the other part that's freaking me out. There are people who seriously believe this will result in no Superman anywhere anymore ever?

]]> By: Matt D http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632235 Matt D Sat, 29 Mar 2008 22:23:38 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632235 I know the history and I'm still pretty selfish. Granted, I'm not going to spout out a bunch of ignorant cruelties on a message board, but I'd rather have my shared universe kept pristine, what with Kon-El running around alive, than a bunch of creator's rights. I'm just a jerk. I know the history and I'm still pretty selfish. Granted, I'm not going to spout out a bunch of ignorant cruelties on a message board, but I'd rather have my shared universe kept pristine, what with Kon-El running around alive, than a bunch of creator's rights. I'm just a jerk.

]]> By: MarkAndrew http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632180 MarkAndrew Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:26:23 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632180 Hmm. Interesting. Y'know, since he's far and away my favorite version of the character, I wouldn't mind seeing some new stories based on the Golden Age Superman. Hmm. Interesting.

Y'know, since he's far and away my favorite version of the character, I wouldn't mind seeing some new stories based on the Golden Age Superman.

]]> By: MAJOR Ruling in the Siegel Superman Case « The geek and the gimp http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632144 MAJOR Ruling in the Siegel Superman Case « The geek and the gimp Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:58:36 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632144 [...] March 29, 2008 in comic books, comics, court, dc, dc comics, entertainment, jerry siegel, legal, ruling, superman by hookakat1 Tags: comic books, comics, court, dc, dc comics, entertainment, jerry siegel, legal, ruling, superman http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/ [...] [...] March 29, 2008 in comic books, comics, court, dc, dc comics, entertainment, jerry siegel, legal, ruling, superman by hookakat1 Tags: comic books, comics, court, dc, dc comics, entertainment, jerry siegel, legal, ruling, superman http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/ [...]

]]> By: Bryan http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632140 Bryan Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:56:25 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632140 Thanks for the answers Brian. For what it's worth, I predict both this and the Superboy case will be settled out of court. I don't think either party would want the risk associated with a jury decision on compensation. Thanks for the answers Brian.

For what it's worth, I predict both this and the Superboy case will be settled out of court. I don't think either party would want the risk associated with a jury decision on compensation.

]]> By: Chris http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632118 Chris Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:29:02 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632118 Ok, let me see if I follow this correctly (and for once I'm not trying to be funny or a smart ass): This ruling is based on Superman as he appeared in Action Comics #1. So this is before the flying, kryptonite, diamond shaped "S" symbol, Lex or the rest of his Rogues Gallery, heat vision, super everything except strength and leaping ability. So in effect it gives the Siegels half the copyright to a five or so page story and an origin that has been fleshed out so much to make the original story almost obsolete. So if that's the case, nobody really has anything to worry about. But as a defense to those who are upset over it, I can see their point of view. Because in just looking at it, it seems like this- a local artist does a painting, you buy it from him or her for a couple of hundred dollars then years later you sell it at an auction for a million and the artists family says "Hey you owe us some of that money." It's not that simple, but on first glance, it seems that way. Ok, let me see if I follow this correctly (and for once I'm not trying to be funny or a smart ass):

This ruling is based on Superman as he appeared in Action Comics #1. So this is before the flying, kryptonite, diamond shaped "S" symbol, Lex or the rest of his Rogues Gallery, heat vision, super everything except strength and leaping ability. So in effect it gives the Siegels half the copyright to a five or so page story and an origin that has been fleshed out so much to make the original story almost obsolete.

So if that's the case, nobody really has anything to worry about.

But as a defense to those who are upset over it, I can see their point of view. Because in just looking at it, it seems like this- a local artist does a painting, you buy it from him or her for a couple of hundred dollars then years later you sell it at an auction for a million and the artists family says "Hey you owe us some of that money." It's not that simple, but on first glance, it seems that way.

]]> By: Brian Cronin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632071 Brian Cronin Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:33:59 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632071 As for your other question, I dunno for sure, but prolly not. As for your other question, I dunno for sure, but prolly not.

]]> By: Brian Cronin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632061 Brian Cronin Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:20:29 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632061 Ha! I will admit, Bryan, that I was just hoping that noone picked up on that. I decided it was way too confusing to explain in a piece that was already pretty complicated. That said, for a brief (and so not thorough) explanation, the Siegels had a 5 year period in which to terminate, and they used it all. So DC gets those extra five years. It is a lot more complicated then that, but that is the basics. Ha! I will admit, Bryan, that I was just hoping that noone picked up on that. I decided it was way too confusing to explain in a piece that was already pretty complicated. That said, for a brief (and so not thorough) explanation, the Siegels had a 5 year period in which to terminate, and they used it all. So DC gets those extra five years. It is a lot more complicated then that, but that is the basics.

]]> By: Bryan http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/comment-page-1/#comment-632054 Bryan Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:05:56 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/03/28/major-ruling-in-the-siegel-superman-case/#comment-632054 Another question: Do the Siegel's now have standing to go after properties that infringe on the Superman copyright? I'm thinking of characters like the original Captain Marvel, Hyperion from Marvel, Underdog, etc. Another question: Do the Siegel's now have standing to go after properties that infringe on the Superman copyright? I'm thinking of characters like the original Captain Marvel, Hyperion from Marvel, Underdog, etc.

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