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My revelation regarding Secret Invasion

Yes, I had a revelation. I was like John of Patmos, munching on hallucinogenic mushrooms and seeing cities floating in the clouds, or Saul of Tarsus, hearing voices in a cloud asking why I’m persecuting him, or Sir Isaac Newton, just desiring to take a nap under a tree and getting bonked on the head for my troubles. Yes, ’twas a mighty revelation! I am not here to bash the latest epic, because I haven’t read it. But I am here to give voice to my reasons for not reading it.

One of the dudes at the comic book store was asking me what I usually read, and I was ticking off some of my favorites, trying to stay in the Marvel/DC realm so I wouldn’t have to explain myself too much. He’s a relative youngster, and has shown in the past that he doesn’t venture too far beyond the Big Two. And that’s fine. He asked me if I was going to read Secret Invasion, and I mentioned that I had seen it all before. Yes, that was my big revelation. No, it’s not that groundbreaking, but lemme ‘splain.

Many people have noted how similar this feels to “Millennium,” DC’s big crossover back in the day. I hadn’t started buying comics when “Millennium” hit, so I only know it from buying back issues of certain titles, such as Detective Comics. Someone else mentioned the similarity of Secret Invasion to the Dire Wraiths storyline that started, I guess, in ROM but ran through several Marvel titles, including Uncanny X-Men. I mentioned that to the dude to whom I was speaking, and simply said, “I don’t have any interest in it, because I’ve seen it before.”

I know this isn’t a perfect excuse; much of fiction is recycled. But with Big Event Comics, it seems like the recycling is more pronounced, and I have less tolerance for it. I mean, this event hearkens back to the freakin’ Kree-Skrull War, and that was almost 40 years ago. I’m not necessarily opposed to the idea of Skrulls infiltrating the highest echelons of government and sowing discord among the superhero set, even if it’s a pretty standard idea. If I were younger and hadn’t read as many superhero comics, I’d probably be all over Secret Invasion. Yu’s art is nicer than it’s been recently, and Bendis obviously knows what he’s doing. But with big-time events like this, the creative team seems to take a back seat to the momentum of the event, and it becomes less important that a good team is on the book and more that certain plot points get covered. I have recently finished reading “Messiah Complex,” and despite the presence of good writers – Brubaker, Carey, David – it felt like they were simply trying to get from Point A to Point B to Point C. Now, this is probably a different animal, as Bendis is the sole writer on the main event, and therefore the central mini-series might be more coherent. But the fact remains that this mini-series, like crossovers before it, is about moving the plot forward. And when I’ve seen the plot before, it doesn’t thrill me as much.

This is one of the reasons why I’ve moved away from traditional superhero comics. It’s not that I don’t like superheroes, it’s that when you have these characters for which nothing ever changes, it’s very hard to come up with new stuff for them to do. A writer I like will alleviate some of that, and so I drop in on Batman because I like Morrison. Once he’s done, I may or may not keep up with the title. I have liked Bendis’ stuff in the past, but I don’t think he’s a particularly good superhero writer, so that’s not a draw. At some point in the development of my taste, I decided I wanted something more than stories of superheroes faced with tough odds. Again, there’s nothing wrong with that. The nature of the business, however, means that there’s not really a lot of mystery about what is going to happen. Civil War hasn’t really had that many repercussions, despite all the hype. Yes, there have been a few, but generally it’s business as usual in the Marvel U. This series may have some repercussions, but not many. If we consider something like Invincible, which takes place in its own little universe and is under the sole control of Mr. Kirkman, the difference becomes clear – every event in that book matters, because Mark Grayson’s life can change dramatically. I’m not saying that it’s automatically a better comic, but it’s more interesting to me, personally. Even in the Big Two we can get interesting comics, but they’re always books that don’t sell particularly well, and therefore the creators can take more chances. Since Bendis took over, the Avengers brand has done well for Marvel. Do you really think they’re going to let him fuck with it too much?

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I have no problem with Marvel doing Secret Invasion. I have no problem with DC and Marvel doing these Big Events, especially if they’re going to get good talent on the main series. I’m somewhat jazzed by Final Crisis, because yes, I’m a Whorrison, we never get to see J. G. Jones on interiors, and I honestly have no idea where the story is going to go. The biggest problems I have with a lot of these Big Events is, as I pointed out, the writers’ best assets are subverted to the bigger plot, which is never a great idea; nothing much ever changes, because of the fact that these are iconic (and marketable) characters; and because it takes so much attention away from books that need a marketing push, like Blue Beetle or The Order. Again, if you don’t like those books, fine, but very often, they get overlooked because DC and Marvel are so busy pushing the Monster Event. It’s too bad.

I know this is the Nature of the Beast, and that’s fine. I don’t have a problem with people buying Secret Invasion. I do have a problem with people thinking it’s going to be some kind of revolutionary story. It might be good, it might be bad. But for me, I know I’d rather take my four dollars and spend it on something like Fallen Angel, where shocking things happen as part of a long-running and carefully-planned storyline. I’ve seen a Skrull infiltration before. I’ve read too many comics for it to interest me. Am I just too old? Is this just a case of Secret Invasion appealing to the younger comics readers, who haven’t read this before? You tell me, good readers of this blog!


My son, who’s eleven, is why I got issue #1. He loved it. Outside of the “who’s a skrull?” question, I don’t have any interest in it.

Are people really complaining that it’s a Millenium rip-off? I think 20 years is enough turn around to reuse a concept.

You hit the nail on the head. If you’re expecting lasting change or a story that will have permanent ramifications, you’re out of luck… these are huge franchise characters we’re talking about. I can definitely empathize and see why that would be very boring.

However, although a return to the status quo is inevitable, maybe it’ll be a good time along the way. Who knows? (I haven’t picked it up yet, btw). Some mega-events are simply fun… “Sinestro Corps War” went above most people’s expectations.

Although I can see your point and I can’t argue it, a devil’s advocate might say that the journey is worth the price of admission alone. Every episode of THE SIMPSONS, for example, returns back to square one. The characters and their situation has remained unchanged for decades now. But that doesn’t mean nothing happens during the course of any given episode.

one has to go as far back as right now to see that this is the exact same story, well minus the cosmic angle, that is going on in gi joe.

i was mildly interested in it, from a morbid curiosity point of view, figured i might read the trade from the library in a year or so, but i am just done with epic, world changing comics, that will sake the foundations of the _______ universe so much that the reverberations will cause so much change that the previous status quo is the only possible destinations.

i am even contemplating nixing morrison’s final crisis, and i have gotten ecery morrison book since his x-men run and most before hand.

i hate to blame it on event overload, but that mixed with the desire to retrofit all changes has made mw far too apathetic about them all.

From actually reading the issue, it bounced from character to character and place to place so much that it felt l was reading cliffs notes. Maybe cliffs notes of an interesting novel, but so many corners of the marvel universe have to be visited that there’s no time for characters to react to what’s happening (beyond a “what the @#%?” or two) or the story to engage me in any way.

You probably hate tomatoes too even though you’ve never had one. “I’m not bashing the comic, because I haven’t read it.” “Many people said… but “I only know from buying back issues” … are any of your- opinions based on you actually doing something? Or do you just wait for the spoilers and reviews and then generate an uniformed opinion based on other peoples ideas? How bout you wait until more than just one issue comes out of this series before you start saying you’ve seen this all before. Until then, try a tomato…. who knows, you might just like them.

Just read the trade for free at B&N or Borders once its out.

I thought it was pretty good, But what I’m more interested in is Final Crisis. I just cant wait to read it.

I think it’s funny that it is being compared to MIllenium because when I read it, it just screams “Battlestar Galactica” Just with Skrulls instead of Cylons.

When I bash something, I get ripped because I don’t “get it.” When I explain why I’m not going to bash something I haven’t read, I get ripped because I won’t give it a chance. When I explain why I’m not going to read it, I get ripped for not reading it. Thank you, Internet!

I would read it if it were being treated like an interesting story instead of a crossover. If it were being told in the New and Mighty Avengers titles, didn’t spend a year beating around the bush stalling for time, and didn’t waste space on some other books characters that nobody cares about, THEN I would read it. As it stands, I have no patience for a bloated-do-nothing-crossover.

Personally, I love recursions and repetitions and revisions. I will watch eighteen different versions of Hamlet, just to see how directors and actors put their own spin on the same language.

So I’m willing to play along with Secret Invasion. But seriously, it’s just “Millenium” plus “Invasion!” Plus fears of domestic terrorism. Multiplied by Mamet. Divided by Luke Cage. Squared.

I’m much more interested in reading about Secret Invasion than I am in reading Secret Invasion.

The real revelation is that every one of these Big Events is actually the same Event. The details may differ, but the House of M, the Superhero Registration Act, and the Skrull Invasion are all basically the same chaos-sowing McGuffin used to create the illusion that Nothing Will Ever Be The Same Again. Of course, three to six months after it’s over, people realize nothing has really changed, in spite of whatever Big Third Act Catastrophe was hyped as “the beginning of a new era.” Don’t believe me? Then tell me what long-reaching functional storytelling differences have come out of the Decimation or the Pro-Registration Victory.

My son, who’s eleven, is why I got issue #1. He loved it. Outside of the “who’s a skrull?” question, I don’t have any interest in it.

Cool. If it comes right down to it, I’d rather have more superhero comics that 11 year olds like that superhero comics for crusty, 30 year old me.

Not that this is a dichotomy, I guess. I didn’t buy it ’cause it doesn’t sound like the kind of thing I’m interested in, but I could think it’s really good, too. But I’d rather superhero comics aim at the 11 year olds and maybe, incidentally, produce something I like than vice versa.

Andrew Collins

April 6, 2008 at 8:14 pm

It’s funny you mention the Dire Wraiths story in ROM, because I just bought a complete run of ROM off eBay and I am infinitely more excited about reading that then I am in reading Secret Invasion. I like Bendis, and Yu’s artwork is okay (don’t love it, don’t hate it), but I just can’t seem to build any excitement for it other than the occasional curious peek to see who turned out to be a Skrull…

It’s funny that you mention Final Crisis, because this is going to be the first year that I’ve ever bought both the DC and Marvel “events” that they’re putting out. Like you, I’m only buying Final Crisis because Grant Morrison is writing it, and I hold out hope that he will be putting his creativity to use creating something interesting using the vast tapestry of the DC universe that largely bores me to tears. However, barring a miracle, I have no intention of reading any of the books DC publishes post-Final Crisis. (Ostrander getting a regular Suicide Squad title again is the #1 miracle on my list, personally.)

By contrast, I’m actually buying Secret Invasion because I am genuinely interested in where the Marvel Universe is going because of this and afterwards. I’m not a huge fan of Bendis or Yu, but the actual series itself is interesting me despite the fact that I’ve never been much of an Avengers fan, and the the presence of such talents as Jason Aaron on Black Panther and Mike Carey and Cary Nord on X-Men is getting me to buy tie-ins for the first time I can ever remember on an event series.

So I don’t know, I’ll definitely read FC, but SI actually has me excited about not only the main series, but even the tie-ins, which is pretty rare for me.

JD Posey:
I think you’re way, way off. I didn’t read an article by someone who was refusing to try tomatoes, I read an essay by someone who went to a boarding school where they served nothing but tomatoes morning noon and night, and, upon being offered a new “tomato surprise – but it’s really different from all the other tomato dishes you’ve tried, honest!” is just saying “no, I think I’ll pass, the smell is already putting me off”.
Now, I’m reading it myself (mostly because, sad to say, I don’t put the value on my time and attention some do on theirs), but there are enough familiar ingredients that a long time comics reader can make a judgment about whether or not to read it without being accused of ignorance if they decline. Bendis, has just put together a recipe of familiar ingredients here, not invented a whole new flavor or food group that can only be understood if experienced directly.

Personally I think Bendis overseasons his tomatoes. And cooks ‘em too long.

I actually really like when series like Blue Beetle crosses over with the Big Events. Because they are off the beaten path, they don’t have to advance plot, but build stories around what is going on in the shared universe in relation to the series or character. Take a look at BB’s crossover with Sinestro Corps. It had such an organic feel to the whole thing, I loved it. The Impulse tie-in to Genesis was one of the only readable thing in that whole Big Event, and Impulse again took Our Worlds at War and made it into an interesting character piece dealing with the death of one of Bart’s avatars.

the reason I get Big Events is because I want to know what is going on in the DCU. I think it comes from having Crisis #8 as a kid, and nothing else from that time period yet, and seeing an editor’s box that told me to check out Omega Men whatever to get the rest of Blue Devil’s story. I loved that. But Crisis is a crossover done right.

I am also looking forward to Final Crisis, because GFrant Morrison has big ideas, and a good trak record at making them work. I’m also looking forward to Legion of Three Worlds. They both have potential.

I read the story before, I know all about the shapeshifting aliens and their blah blah blah, but I still want to read this event (and liked the first issue) because these are characters I’m familiar with and love. I know that there will be repercussions in the end that eventually won’t stay for long, but I’m still gona read it. As long as it’s enjoying and entertaining I don’t mind seeing big stories happening once in a while, the only qualification is them being good.

(I actually don’t pay for this event, so I saved 4 bucks. Maybe I’ll buy the trade.)

How bout you wait until more than just one issue comes out of this series before you start saying you’ve seen this all before.

I’m sorry, but I find this hilarious!!! The fact that you are no longer allowed to form an opinion by browsing or looking at one issue. Hell no! In fact, now you have to buy more than one before you are allowed to say something!

Now, that’s funny! And that’s one of the reasons I’m not interested in many of these so called events. It’s basic product pushing.

I mean, instead of increasing sales by nurturing the market; publishers are tying everything to anything in the hopes that something sells. It’s the 90’s all over again. But instead of pushing multiple covers; they are pushing multiple comics you wouldn’t normally buy. In other words, it’s just a way for the publisher to stay in the black while the retailer bears the burden of speculating as to what the demand will be like, how many comics they should buy, etc.

Look at World War Hulk! According to Marvel’s Checklist, there were like 39 books that tied into this story; and as a result, they wanted retailers to be prepared by increasing their orders on all of them.

Now contrast with Secret Invasion which will go on for 8 months and will have tied into 34 comics by its 3rd month. When you look at the big picture, the question retailers should ask themselves is not “who do they trust?” but can they afford it.

“Now contrast with Secret Invasion which will go on for 8 months and will have tied into 34 comics by its 3rd month. When you look at the big picture, the question retailers should ask themselves is not “who do they trust?” but can they afford it.”

Uhm… I’m fairly sure they can because they’ll probably sell like crazy. I’d sooner turn the the question around and ask can they afford not to (increase their orders)? Wether they like the story or not I don’t think many retailers we’re complaining about the sales figures for Civil War and Planet Hulk.

I don’t get the Millennium complaint. Sure this story is a retread of Millennium, but people like me who try usually avoid DC have never read Millennium and never plan to can really appreciate having the same story retold with Marvel characters. With DC characters, it’s not a catchy enough premise to move me to a purchase, but retell it with Marvel characters and suddenly I care.

The interesting thing to me about it, being one of those ancient fans that watches trends and spends way too much time thinking about them, is that is the pendulum swing involved with these things seems to be getting longer every time. Figure the pattern is — Big Change Moment on one end, Walk The Change Back on the other. So you get Death of Superman leading to Reign of the Supermen, you get Knightfall leading to KnightsEnd, you get Planet Hulk leading to World War Hulk leading to whatever is going on now, and now you have Infinite Crisis-52-Countdown-Final Crisis and Civil War leading through to, well, this. The cycle used to be a couple-three months. Now it’s measured in YEARS.

I don’t know why it bothers me… well, yes, I do. It’s because it seems counter-intuitive to me, and really uninviting. The astonishing thing to me is that it’s successful; the damn things seem to sell no matter how much people claim to hate them.

I’m not buying it because I try not to spend money just to keep up. I hate the “key club” style of doing superhero comics and lately it seems like they’re ALL key-club comics. The coolest thing about Secret Invasion, as far as I’m concerned, is that an 11-year-old can not only understand it but enjoy it. I’m with Mark. I’d much rather see more stuff like that. That comment alone actually got me mildly interested…. I might have to have a look at this thing now. Dumb summer-blockbuster fun is my idea of what a superhero “event story” SHOULD look like.

Yu’s art is only nicer because he’s got SOMEONE ELSE inking him.

I want to read good comics. That means that I shouldn’t be afraid to be trendy nor be afraid to be picky. There are a ton of great comics out there. If I think something is worthwhile, I’ll be happy to read it; if a comic is disappointing, I’ll let it go and move on to something else. Embracing this view has tended to move me out of the comic shop and into the library.

It’s just an opinion but I believe chromium covers and hologram covers were profitable in their times, and now they are hailed as the bane of comic book’s existence. And to drive the point through, there are a bunch of Secret Invasion comics with White Covers sitting in the shelves because nobody can figure out how they are supposed to work. Are you supposed to peal the cover? …set it on fire? …make it glow in the dark? ‘Cause let me tell you, it’s not glowing!

And as far a selling. They sell for the publisher, but it’s not always so much fun for the retailer. It’s been my experience that the longer these things go, the easier it is for fans to start dropping things half-way through and making last minute decisions.

I guess that’s it. If you want to talk about the story… I have to say, I wasn’t too impressed. Whenever Bendis writes an 8-issue book, I always end up feeling like the story could’ve been told in 4. I also felt that there weren’t any major revelations and that it’s chief “wow moment” will be repeated in the upcoming Avengers/Invarders book (with much better art).

I don’t think the whole thing is a Millenium clone, but there is a feeling of… dilution of ideas, …of deja vu. It’s like watching Battlestar Galactica, but with something else. If only I could put my finger on it…

Hey, I think I got… it!

(But who the hell put Roddy Piper in my comics!)

I don’t get the Millennium complaint. Sure this story is a retread of Millennium, but people like me who try usually avoid DC have never read Millennium and never plan to can really appreciate having the same story retold with Marvel characters. With DC characters, it’s not a catchy enough premise to move me to a purchase, but retell it with Marvel characters and suddenly I care.

That’s a strange thing to admit so proudly.

“I don’t care about the story, I care about the franchise!”

What I find most amusing is Mr. Burgas’ incorporating a solid one-two bash of Christianity into his opening statement. I thought this was a forum discussing comic books, not to lash out at whatever you felt the need to unleash a hate-speech on. I wonder if Mr. Burgas would feel the same freedom in bashing a different group of people, gays or blacks, for instance.

If it were a representation of Christianity within a comic book, I’d let it go. This, however, is simply uncalled for. Mr. Burgas, I would like an apology for your words against Christianity, specifically for suggesting that the Revelation of John was a drug induced halucination while in exile on a prision island, and for the misrepresentation of Jesus’ direct communication with Saul, later Paul, who wrote most of the New Testament.

hate speech????

hey avenger63 you seem to be stuck on/in your talking points. to conjecture why someone had a revelation is not hate speech in the slightest. it is conjecture and only conjecture.

today must be your 1st day on the interwebs if you find this offensive. i suggest switching to decaf or not view everything through an “but i am a victim” glasses.

Andrew Collins

April 7, 2008 at 10:38 am

Wow, you just took this discussion in a whole direction it didn’t need to go in…

I would suggest that Greg took this in that direction when he attempted to discredit a particular faith.

And no, this clearly is NOT my first day on the internet or the various discussion boards. We simply shouldn’t go off in various directions when the intent is to talk about comics. Starting a discussion with conjecture intended at discreditation of a totally different topic is not the way to do it.

I’d ask if my reaction would be responded to similarly were the comments made about gays or blacks? Would they have been made in the first place? Obviously, the answer to both is “no”. The question them becomes “Why is it acceptable to make derogatory statements about one thing but not another?”

And yes, I find the statements highly offensive. Attempting to discredit the foundation of anothers life is offensive.

What I find most amusing is Mr. Burgas’ incorporating a solid bash of Gravity in his opening statement. I thought that the internet was a place where I would never encounter an opinion that did not fully comply with my own. I wonder if Mr. Burgas’ would feel the same freedom in bashing scientific concepts such as the theory of relativity and the law of conservation of mass.

Mr. Burgas, I would like an apology for your words against Gravity, specifically for suggesting that Sir Isaac Newton was a lazy wanker who’s only desire was to take naps.

If you have a problem with Greg, contact him. Don’t hijack the thread for some imagined slight.

No one’s trying to discredit another’s life – no one said a thing about any faith being false, other than the faith in Secret Invasion‘s ability to leave lasting changes in its wake.

I want to read good comics. That means that I shouldn’t be afraid to be trendy

Shame more people don’t take that approach. So often the entire point seems to be “popular books can’t possibly be good”…

you’ll never guess what my revelation regarding this article is…oh, wait, yes you will.

Oh, come on. I am Christian and teach Sunday school, I’m married to a mission worker, and WE are in no way threatened by Greg being a goofball in his intro. As he does in, oh, EVERY OTHER INTRO HE’S EVER DONE ON THE BLOG.

How is it better if his references to John and Paul had been non-secular? It’s still drawing a silly comparison between a realization about superhero comics and an apocalyptic life-changing vision. My first thought reading something like that — either way — is, “oh, he’s kidding around.” The comparison to racial or gender bigotry is not really valid if it’s just as silly a joke done with reverent similes and not secular ones.

Not that Greg needs me to defend him. I just wanted it on the record that not all Christians were offended.

Religion is not the foundation of your life. It’s a choice you make based on your opinion of the world. You are not born Christian. The evidence is right there in the fact that Christians are baptized. He’s not joking about who you are, he’s joking about what you think.

And that’s why it’s different from comments about gay people or black people.

Addendum: If you can’t handle someone making fun of your opinions, then for your blood pressure’s sake, you ought to get off the internet.

That’s a strange thing to admit so proudly.

“I don’t care about the story, I care about the franchise!”

No, I do care about the story. I just think that stories done by Marvel creators with Marvel characters tend to be invariably better.

That’s just a ridiculous fanboy attitude.

Who are the Marvel creators, anyway?

Religion is not the foundation of your life. It’s a choice you make based on your opinion of the world.

Incorrect. Accepting Christ is the choice I made when presented with the truth in the form of the Gospel.

You are not born Christian. The evidence is right there in the fact that Christians are baptized.

True, I was not born Christian. That does not, however, allow for any level of dismissive attitude towards my beliefs.

He’s not joking about who you are, he’s joking about what you think.

Again, incorrect. I AM a Christian. I THINK yellow is a nice color. One is a fact, one is an opinion. There is a clear difference.

And that’s why it’s different from comments about gay people or black people.

This is where the point got lost. At least it’s one place where it got lost. It has become practice to never say a foul word about anything. Except for Christianity, that is. You can dismiss, ridicule, belittle, or otherwise contradict NOTHING without getting a massice public outcry except for Chriatianity. For some reason, it’s OK to be “tolerant” of anything & everything except that. Why is that? Case in point: I stated that I didn’t appreciate Burgas’ comments & asked for an apology, and the presonal attacks immediately launched. It really doesn’t matter what the other disparaging remarks may have been about – the reaction would have been immediate. Yet, when they’re about Christianity and someone speaks up about it, they’re told in no uncertain terms that they’re wrong for being offended.

Hatcher: THAT is why we need to step up to the plate and say something. The line has to be drawn in the sand somewhere. I just can’t accept this sort of thing anymore. It turns my stomach whenever I see it.

FWIW: It was NOT my intention to hijack the thread. Burgas made the comments in a public forum. I felt the need to make a public statement. I’d have left the whole thing alone and waited for him to respond. Everyone else who jumped in did the hijacking.

You’re getting into rhetoric mode, where logic and reality don’t apply, so I’m not going to bother arguing.

For the record, it’s doing the exact opposite of warming people to your opinion.

Then there’s the fact that none of what he said constitutes “bashing”.

Greg, you are far too courteous when you say:

“Thank you, Internet!”

More bluntly, you should have said:

“Thank you, B!tche$!”

Wow. I do apologize, avengers63. I am not a Christian, nor do I have any particular use for God, but I don’t go around deliberately insulting people with whom I don’t agree. As Greg H. notes, I was making a joke, and I didn’t think it was all that offensive. You, for instance, have no idea if John was munching hallucinogenic mushrooms or not. I didn’t say his visions were false, after all. If God wanted him to have visions, couldn’t he have used mushrooms to get John in a visionary state of mind? He works in mysterious ways, after all. As for Saul, I guess he didn’t hear a voice in the cloud, but could I have said I was like Saul, hearing a voice as the light of heaven shone down upon me? Is any humor with regard to the Bible okay, or is it far too serious a tome to even joke about? I hold no reverance for a book compiled 300 years after the death of Jesus by political bishops who had their own agendas, so I’m not sure what the policy is toward it.

But I am sorry. Although I don’t find anything I wrote offensive, I certainly don’t get to decide. If you were offended by anything I wrote, I apologize.

Bendis—proudly writing for 11-year-olds for over a decade!

Dang it, I spelled “reverence” incorrectly. I suck. I just wanted to point out that I’m not being sarcastic at all with my apology. Occasionally that isn’t clear on the Internet.

“That does not, however, allow for any level of dismissive attitude towards my beliefs.”

So you can’t be dismissive towards ANY type of beliefs?

BURGAS: Thank you, Greg. That was all I was looking for.

It has become inappropriate for anyone in a public leadership role to be anything other than completely neutral. When you make a post, you get placed in that position. It’s just an unfortunate development in our society.

No, that’s just an unfortunate development in your mind. Greg is not a public leader and has no responsibilities of the like.

Andrew Collins

April 7, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Public leadership??? It’s a blog on the internet! No offense to Brian and the Gregs, but if CSGB is a leadership forum and not just a comic book discussion blog, then we’re all in a lot of trouble! Seriously, last time I checked a blog is a place where people can say whatever the hell they feel like. That’s the great thing about free speech. It’s the right for people to say whatever they want, not for them to only say what you want to hear. Don’t go peering between every letter on the page looking for a reason to be offended….

If you’re the facilitator of a conversation, then you’re the leader. No, the facilitator on a comic book blog is not of any great significance (nothing personal), but it’s the leader role nonetheless.

And no, Apod, it’s not just in my mind. Take a look at any (real) public figure and what happens to them whenever they say or do anything that is the slightest bit offensive to anyone. I clearly recall a newscaster being disciplined because they were wearing an American flag pin days after 9-11. The story was that the station didn’t want to offend Muslims. Recently, the DOD recently had a minor fiasco when ONE PERSON had an issue with the 21-gun salute at a vet’s funeral.

Greg would likely not have been allowed to statements mocking Muslim or Hindus. Yet Christianity can be mocked at every turn without repercussion. The general reactions to my OPINIONS and FEELINGS prove my point. A Christian isn’t allowed to express their offense in public to what they feel is an attack or discreditation of their beliefs.

I don’t deny it: this is a personal soapbox for me. I’m sick of seeing Christianity not get the same consideration as other groups. I’m sick of the double standard. I’m sick of seeing every agenda be pushed down the public’s throat without apology except for traditional family values. I’m sick of seeing every group, or even one lone individual, getting special consideration. I’m sick of seeing folks bend over backwards to not offend anyone but Christians.

And again, I’d have been happy to have just made my original statement and wait for a reply from Greg. I apologize for the sidetrack this thread took.

On a different note, I’m liking Secret Invasion. I’m not too concerned that the idea is a mish-mash of a bunch of stories that have already been done. There are very few truly original ideas left. Look at movies, romantic comedies in specific. Chick-fliks have nearly the same plot every time. It’s only the execution that makes them different. Comics are very similar in many ways. Bendis usually has good execution, so I’m not fussing about it at all.

I don’t even have a problem the published list of tie-ins so far. IIRC, there are only 2-3 per month, including the SI series itself, that aren’t on my pull list anyway. I’m sure I’ll have to make my decisions about which extras to get, but again, it’s not such a big deal. I trust my shop to steer me away from the ones that really aren’t worth the effort.


you seem to be taking this a bit too far. you were offended. i can not argue that. and you have every right to be and make the slight known. i take offense that you that you deemed what greg said as hate speech. he did not vehemently attack anyone or group. he did not issue a call to action against anyone or group. he only opined what he sees as a possible reason for some time tested cases of revelation. hardly hate speech, and by calling it as such you have sullied the term and reduced the impact of it when in fact speech is used to orchestrate hate.

as for you getting on a soapbox. i say if you feel so strongly you might want to preach from a box that reaches more eyes and start your own blog (if you have not already), where you can point out the slights the world egregiously perpetrates on you.

as for your unfounded claims that christians are the only group that sees mocking without repercussion, um i suggest you might want to pay attention a bit more. and for a slightly comic related story to do so, look at the danish muslim cartoon scandal currently going on.

I’m sick of seeing Christianity not get the same consideration as other groups. I’m sick of the double standard.

That’s a good point. (Insert name of group which you belong to here) is much more put upon then (insert name of other group that you have minimal understanding of.)

Poor, poor (insert name of other group that you have minimal understanding of) will never know the suffering and discrimination that (insert name of group you belong to) undergo.

Just as an aside — there are no guidelines here that I’m aware of other than our own judgement. No one, not Brian, not Jonah, tells us what we can and can’t write about. We work without a net, here. Fortunately, most of us are fussy enough to do drafts in advance and proof them and so on, but the idea that we wouldn’t be “allowed” to say something derogatory is simply not so. We might get yelled at for it — I don’t think any of us feels there’s a shortage of folks on the net willing to yell at us — but short of actual libel I don’t think Jonah would ask us to censor something or even tone it down.

The first issue was pretty fun and fast-paced. Don’t sell it short – most crossovers are awful, but I can’t see how you’d conclude this one is by what we’ve seen so far.

Boy, this is the single dumbest tangent the Internet has ever produced.

I’ve only been seriously reading comics for almost a year now, and I guess thats why I find Secret Invasion to be potentially awesome. But I do wish books like The Order got more attention. Its definately my favorite book to come out of The Initiative.

I clearly recall a newscaster being disciplined because they were wearing an American flag pin days after 9-11.

I call bullshit on that.

And also on the “woe is me, the poor put-upon Christian” attitude. Not everyone who disagrees with my beliefs is trying to disrespect them or keep me down. An attack on Christianity is saying “Christianity is a lie and anyone who believes it is a fool” – an offhand, roundabout reference to a tenet of the faith in a less than glowing manner can only be an attack by the greatest stretch of the imagination, by someone who wants to be offended and made the choice to take it as such. The lack of a positive is not a negative – and trying to claim some slight where there is none demeans those cases where there actually is an attack.

If you’re the facilitator of a conversation, then you’re the leader. No, the facilitator on a comic book blog is not of any great significance (nothing personal), but it’s the leader role nonetheless.

It only makes him a “leader” in the sense that he stated a conversation – a conversation based on his own opinions, at which point it’s not only ENTIRELY appropriate to not be neutral, it’s a requirement.

Boy, this is the single dumbest tangent the Internet has ever produced.

Obviously you’ve never been to a Star Wars site.

I call bullshit on that.

Nope, I looked it up: I was wrong

Andrew Collins

April 7, 2008 at 10:40 pm

Well said, yo go re, well said.

I’ d like to offer a public apology to Greg Burgas and to ask him to forgive me. After sleeping on it, I realized that I wasn’t so much bent out of shape at his comments as I was about what they represent. They are merely a symptom of the reality I see every day, and a convenient excuse to get on my soapbox.


April 8, 2008 at 9:30 am

“Yu’s art is only nicer because he’s got SOMEONE ELSE inking him.”

Ain’t that the truth, brother.

Heck, avengers63, ain’t nothing to forgive. As I mentioned, I was a bit mystified that you were offended, but again, I don’t get to decide what offends people or doesn’t. I’m probably not going to stop making jokes, but I don’t go out of my way to offend groups of people, so if I do, I count on others to keep me honest!

Bendis and Marvel were smart. By giving us this isssue a couple of months after the horrible “Sell Out” and “I did it for the baby” issue of New Avengers, it makes people think that Bendis’ writing is up there with Shakespere for SI #1.

Although, remember how Iron Man said he didn’t care about the Registration stuff and now with Skrulls looming, he tries to arrest the New Avengers for not being registered. If it turns out Iron Man is a skrull in the story for a few months (Marvel time), that’s cool, but if not that kind of writing is why they have to have this Secret Invasion Crisis (yes, it is a Crisis no matter what Joe Q tries to say) to get everything to match up.

For the record, the “magic mushroom” theory (or its equivalent) was held by many early Christians as well. See Wikipedia for details. It is not included in all Bibles.

“it” being the book of Revelation. (Luther distrusted it, the Syrians rejected it, others felt it cause more trouble than it was worth).

Maybe if you’re so offended, you shouldn’t read this blog anymore. A blog is a forum for expressing a writer’s personal opinons, viewpoints, and beliefs. If you’re so prone to being offended, I think you should stay away from the internet-at-large.

Religion is a touchy subject since everyone thinks their religion of choice is right. Until people can look at other choices and give them the same respect they believe their religion deserves they don’t deserve respect from people who don’t wish to follow that particular faith.

Besides, when you read Revelations you aren’t looking at it from the standpoint of the time it was written. Everything in it can mean different things, however, most of it is regarded as a coded message to Johns followers about Ceaser, only later did people begin reading end times prophecy into it.

If you want to believe it, fine. If you don’t, fine. Just don’t think that you have the moral high road because you feel that something you believe (your OPINION, no matter what you or any pastor, preacher, minister, shaman, spiritual leader says) has been disrespected b ecause of a joke. Unless you are Catholic, then you have no reason to be upset and say you are made fun of since they are the whipping boys for jokes made about Christianity.

You know, maybe if people did a little research and studied history from something other than the Bible, they could understand where some of this stuff comes from…(See Avengers63, there is reason to believe that a lot of the so called “visions” that people had during biblical times were based on ingesting a type of peyote that caused an LSD type of effect. It was used a lot by the Essenes and the other mystery schools.)

Sorry if I seemed to be harping on you Avengers, I wasn’t. It’s just a lot of people never study the past and believe everything that is told to them without wanting to check for themselves. I had a student once tell me straight up that the Hollocaust never happened because their parents and family said so.

Anyway, like I said in my previous post, Secret Invasion was better than I thought it would be, but that doesn’t mean that the entire series will be good.

I do understand why the lack of radical change would become fatiguing over so many years reading the Big Two; these universes will never change the way smaller, unconnected books do. But when have these comics ever really been about constantly being shocking? If anything, I’d say that recent storylines have tried too hard to move from one shocking beat to the next, in lieu of throwing around fun new ideas, and presenting some true character development. Being shocked is always the sign of a good story with characters that the reader actually cares about, but it’s not something that should be chased around constantly. If anything, these events can be seen as the best way to take advantage of a shared universe, and makes it so that when a series is published without a little banner saying “World War Hulk” or whatever, they can go back to focusing squarely on their own characters, and their own stories. I think that’s why these events aren’t leading to a 90’s style crash — because they’re also giving books room to really breathe when the summer craziness comes to an end.

I think Civil War was a failure only because it was touted as a status-quo changing beast, and really only changed things (pretty drastically considering, but still…) in the first two issues. It still showed many Marvel characters in ways they hadn’t been seen before, and it was pretty. World War Hulk was a fantastic, quick five issues, showing off an under-appreciated writer and his creations to Marvel readers who wouldn’t otherwise read the Hulk. It placed the Illuminati-tied characters in some trying situations, and showed off a lot of fun ideas.

I think these books have some value outside of one shocking story beat to the next. I’m not saying Civil War, and now Secret Invasion is Six Feet Under or Deadwood or something, but it might have done it good to be promoted, read, and written as such: a serialized story about some characters put into some tough situations, and seeing how they handle them. As long as the writing pulls some stronger underlying themes through, it really doesn’t matter who is and isn’t a Skrull in the end, or who won the Civil War.

I think we should all just sit down together and have a bowl of tomato soup.

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