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	<title>Comments on: The Whole Mary Marvel Thing</title>
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	<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/</link>
	<description>Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good!</description>
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		<title>By: nightwing</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655386</link>
		<dc:creator>nightwing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655386</guid>
		<description>Can we please stop with all this crossover BS. I have a crazy idea. How about some good self contained stories where the reader doesn&#039;t have to buy ever damn book out in a month just to read.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we please stop with all this crossover BS. I have a crazy idea. How about some good self contained stories where the reader doesn't have to buy ever damn book out in a month just to read.</p>
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		<title>By: FunkyGreenJerusalem</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655342</link>
		<dc:creator>FunkyGreenJerusalem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 00:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655342</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;So you actually read modern mainstream DC books expecting something other than stupid resolutions? I think a DC book is only noteworthy if it manages to not be resolved in an utterly stupid way, which is rare since Didio took over.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And Marvel books are so much better?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>So you actually read modern mainstream DC books expecting something other than stupid resolutions? I think a DC book is only noteworthy if it manages to not be resolved in an utterly stupid way, which is rare since Didio took over.</p></blockquote>
<p>And Marvel books are so much better?</p>
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		<title>By: Craig</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655337</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:37:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655337</guid>
		<description>Hey, it&#039;s DC. At least she&#039;s not in pieces in a refrigerator, and even if she does die as a result, they just might erect a statue in the Marvel-Cave.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, it's DC. At least she's not in pieces in a refrigerator, and even if she does die as a result, they just might erect a statue in the Marvel-Cave.  <img src='http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: billso</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655332</link>
		<dc:creator>billso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655332</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m thinking the Mary Marvel thing will go as Grant Morrison describes. He would know, since he plotted Final Crisis. 

Maybe Mary recovers after Supergirl beats her senseles, and MM ends up working with Freddy again. 

Oh, and Freddy is calling himself Shazam, since that&#039;s his NEW magic word. Gotta keep that tradition alive... maybe he should call himself Fred. 

Billy Batson? He&#039;s calling himself &quot;Marvel&quot; now. I wonder what Joe Q had to say about that... is it a handshake deal with DiDio, maybe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm thinking the Mary Marvel thing will go as Grant Morrison describes. He would know, since he plotted Final Crisis. </p>
<p>Maybe Mary recovers after Supergirl beats her senseles, and MM ends up working with Freddy again. </p>
<p>Oh, and Freddy is calling himself Shazam, since that's his NEW magic word. Gotta keep that tradition alive... maybe he should call himself Fred. </p>
<p>Billy Batson? He's calling himself "Marvel" now. I wonder what Joe Q had to say about that... is it a handshake deal with DiDio, maybe?</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Cronin</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655325</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Cronin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655325</guid>
		<description>Yes, Countdown is lame and all that, but I was just checking to see if it is fair to complain about the Mary Marvel thing after Countdown ends and she&#039;s still in her current (really dumb) status quo. 

You figure the end of a 52 issue series is a fair point to complain about things that happened in that series, right?

So no &quot;You can&#039;t knock it, because it may be revealed months from now that it is all a twist!&quot;

If a twist comes from a separate writer, is that even a twist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Countdown is lame and all that, but I was just checking to see if it is fair to complain about the Mary Marvel thing after Countdown ends and she's still in her current (really dumb) status quo. </p>
<p>You figure the end of a 52 issue series is a fair point to complain about things that happened in that series, right?</p>
<p>So no "You can't knock it, because it may be revealed months from now that it is all a twist!"</p>
<p>If a twist comes from a separate writer, is that even a twist?</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Collins</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655320</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Collins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:13:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655320</guid>
		<description>What resolutions??? Every DC book these days just feels like a lead-in to the next crossover. When&#039;s the last time a mini-series from DC even had a proper ending? Blue Beetle and maybe Birds Of Prey are the only books that have managed to pull off a fairly self-contained ending/resolution in the last several months...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What resolutions??? Every DC book these days just feels like a lead-in to the next crossover. When's the last time a mini-series from DC even had a proper ending? Blue Beetle and maybe Birds Of Prey are the only books that have managed to pull off a fairly self-contained ending/resolution in the last several months...</p>
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		<title>By: McK</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655318</link>
		<dc:creator>McK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655318</guid>
		<description>Years from now I expect to see a tell-all interview with Paul Dini about how &quot;Countdown&quot; ended up as a trainwreck, but I think we all already know the answer.

Since I have a lot of respect for him as a creator, I want to believe that much of the story was editorially mandated and he just attempted to connect the dots for a nice-sized paycheck.  Remember how exciting it was to hear that Paul Dini was writing a weekly comic book?  Or remember this promo image: www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Countdown/countdown_t.jpg
How many of those characters (especially the ones front-and-center) actually played a role that was more than a cameo appearance at Black Canary&#039;s bachelorette party?

The lesson of Countdown, comes from the difference between this project and the more successful, more acclaimed 52:

52: What four highly-accomplished writers (Morrison, Waid, Rucka, and Johns), working close together and limited editorial control, can do with C-list characters

 Versusâ€¦ 

Countdown: What five good, but less accomplished writers (McKeever, Beechen, Bedard, Palmiotti, Gray) working seperately from editorially-mandated plots can do with C-list characters

The difference isnâ€™t all that surprising, is it?

Luckily it seems with Busiek/Bagley Trinity with have a more cohesive hand...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Years from now I expect to see a tell-all interview with Paul Dini about how "Countdown" ended up as a trainwreck, but I think we all already know the answer.</p>
<p>Since I have a lot of respect for him as a creator, I want to believe that much of the story was editorially mandated and he just attempted to connect the dots for a nice-sized paycheck.  Remember how exciting it was to hear that Paul Dini was writing a weekly comic book?  Or remember this promo image: <a href="http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Countdown/countdown_t.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Countdown/countdown_t.jpg</a><br />
How many of those characters (especially the ones front-and-center) actually played a role that was more than a cameo appearance at Black Canary's bachelorette party?</p>
<p>The lesson of Countdown, comes from the difference between this project and the more successful, more acclaimed 52:</p>
<p>52: What four highly-accomplished writers (Morrison, Waid, Rucka, and Johns), working close together and limited editorial control, can do with C-list characters</p>
<p> Versusâ€¦ </p>
<p>Countdown: What five good, but less accomplished writers (McKeever, Beechen, Bedard, Palmiotti, Gray) working seperately from editorially-mandated plots can do with C-list characters</p>
<p>The difference isnâ€™t all that surprising, is it?</p>
<p>Luckily it seems with Busiek/Bagley Trinity with have a more cohesive hand...</p>
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		<title>By: T.</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655314</link>
		<dc:creator>T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655314</guid>
		<description>So you actually read modern mainstream DC books expecting something other than stupid resolutions?  I think a DC book is only noteworthy if it manages to not be resolved in an utterly stupid way, which is rare since Didio took over.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you actually read modern mainstream DC books expecting something other than stupid resolutions?  I think a DC book is only noteworthy if it manages to not be resolved in an utterly stupid way, which is rare since Didio took over.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Strand</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655313</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony Strand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655313</guid>
		<description>See, I thought 52 was all kinds of fun. Genuinely exciting, full of great characterization, plot twists that were unexpected but made perfect sense, and a sense of wonder about the DC Universe.

Countdown was the opposite - the characters served the plot, the plot went nowhere (full issues tied into other DC events and very little to do with the story), and entire Earths were destroyed for no reason at all. 

I hope Trinity falls closer to 52 than it does to Countdown, but (Busiek fan though I am), I don&#039;t expect it to reach the highs of the first series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, I thought 52 was all kinds of fun. Genuinely exciting, full of great characterization, plot twists that were unexpected but made perfect sense, and a sense of wonder about the DC Universe.</p>
<p>Countdown was the opposite - the characters served the plot, the plot went nowhere (full issues tied into other DC events and very little to do with the story), and entire Earths were destroyed for no reason at all. </p>
<p>I hope Trinity falls closer to 52 than it does to Countdown, but (Busiek fan though I am), I don't expect it to reach the highs of the first series.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken R</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655307</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655307</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t it fascianting that just one issue of &quot;Secret Invasion&quot; was, what, at least two or three times more enjoyable and competently handled than 49+ issues of &quot;Countdown&quot;? 

First &quot;52&quot;, now this, and &quot;Trinity&quot; to follow. 

On the one hand, &quot;Trinity&quot; gets what was critically missing from the prior two series - DC&#039;s Holy Trinity.  But over 70+ years of pages and continuity, DC&#039;s shown they can screw those characters up, too - if given the chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn't it fascianting that just one issue of "Secret Invasion" was, what, at least two or three times more enjoyable and competently handled than 49+ issues of "Countdown"? </p>
<p>First "52", now this, and "Trinity" to follow. </p>
<p>On the one hand, "Trinity" gets what was critically missing from the prior two series - DC's Holy Trinity.  But over 70+ years of pages and continuity, DC's shown they can screw those characters up, too - if given the chance.</p>
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		<title>By: red-Ricky</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655303</link>
		<dc:creator>red-Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 21:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655303</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;i&gt;i think it would be a bigger crap on the character of darkseid to have him be fooled by mary marvel.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know.

I think I would rather be fooled by Mary Marvel than have my ass handed to me by... [gulp]... Jimmy Olsen?!?

You know, I&#039;m kind of glad I stayed out of this whole Countdown fiasco; but now I&#039;m wondering which way the pendulum will swing with Trinity (and DC isn&#039;t even saying what it&#039;s about, only that Supes, Bats &amp; Wondy are in it).   I know this is fodder for another column, but I&#039;d be interested to know how you guys feel about the series.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<i>i think it would be a bigger crap on the character of darkseid to have him be fooled by mary marvel.</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>I don't know.</p>
<p>I think I would rather be fooled by Mary Marvel than have my ass handed to me by... [gulp]... Jimmy Olsen?!?</p>
<p>You know, I'm kind of glad I stayed out of this whole Countdown fiasco; but now I'm wondering which way the pendulum will swing with Trinity (and DC isn't even saying what it's about, only that Supes, Bats &amp; Wondy are in it).   I know this is fodder for another column, but I'd be interested to know how you guys feel about the series.</p>
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		<title>By: Apodaca</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655298</link>
		<dc:creator>Apodaca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655298</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Itâ€™s like a writer canâ€™t even have a plot twist anymore, because heâ€™ll be pilloried for the zig that comes before the zag a month or two later.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Isn&#039;t that exactly what the writers want, though? I mean, if people are angry because they fell for your plot misdirection, then you&#039;ve done what you set out to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Itâ€™s like a writer canâ€™t even have a plot twist anymore, because heâ€™ll be pilloried for the zig that comes before the zag a month or two later.</p></blockquote>
<p>Isn't that exactly what the writers want, though? I mean, if people are angry because they fell for your plot misdirection, then you've done what you set out to do.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt D</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655288</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655288</guid>
		<description>It seems like a waste of 48 issues of character development ot me (regardless of whether it&#039;s a good status quo for her).

It seems like it almost HAS to be an editorially driven reverse course to prepare for Final Crisis. Otherwise, it&#039;s some of the worst storytelling I&#039;ve ever seen. How do you pay off 48 issues of character development and then just haphazardly do a reverse course? That&#039;s absolutely insane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems like a waste of 48 issues of character development ot me (regardless of whether it's a good status quo for her).</p>
<p>It seems like it almost HAS to be an editorially driven reverse course to prepare for Final Crisis. Otherwise, it's some of the worst storytelling I've ever seen. How do you pay off 48 issues of character development and then just haphazardly do a reverse course? That's absolutely insane.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Waters</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655284</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655284</guid>
		<description>What struck me from what I saw was how generic her &quot;evil Mary&quot; act was. It could be any female supervillain, really- there&#039;s nothing unique to her and her personality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What struck me from what I saw was how generic her "evil Mary" act was. It could be any female supervillain, really- there's nothing unique to her and her personality.</p>
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		<title>By: MasonK</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655278</link>
		<dc:creator>MasonK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655278</guid>
		<description>Sleestak:

The other Marvel Family members have been busy off in The Trials of Shazam, with Billy taking over for the dead (well, deader) wizard and Junior going through various tests and what-not to become Captain Marvel. So, yeah, sadly, they&#039;ve been otherwise occupied while Mary&#039;s been going bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sleestak:</p>
<p>The other Marvel Family members have been busy off in The Trials of Shazam, with Billy taking over for the dead (well, deader) wizard and Junior going through various tests and what-not to become Captain Marvel. So, yeah, sadly, they've been otherwise occupied while Mary's been going bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Sleestak</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655277</link>
		<dc:creator>Sleestak</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655277</guid>
		<description>...and the rest of the Marvel Family members are otherwise occupied to let this happen? They must be in on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>...and the rest of the Marvel Family members are otherwise occupied to let this happen? They must be in on it.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655261</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:41:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655261</guid>
		<description>The general thing is dumby-dumby-dumb, but you gotta love that shot of her beating Donna Troy with Kyle Rayner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The general thing is dumby-dumby-dumb, but you gotta love that shot of her beating Donna Troy with Kyle Rayner.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Waters</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655258</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Waters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655258</guid>
		<description>I believe he&#039;s almost certain to be the one who survives DotNG so he can headline FINAL CRISIS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe he's almost certain to be the one who survives DotNG so he can headline FINAL CRISIS.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephane Savoie</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655253</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephane Savoie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655253</guid>
		<description>Yeah, its going to look bad for Darkseid no matter what.  Good thing he&#039;ll likely be dead by the end of Death of the New Gods.
  Until Darkseid 2.0, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, its going to look bad for Darkseid no matter what.  Good thing he'll likely be dead by the end of Death of the New Gods.<br />
  Until Darkseid 2.0, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: rexcase</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/04/10/the-whole-mary-marvel-thing/comment-page-1/#comment-655243</link>
		<dc:creator>rexcase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=15802#comment-655243</guid>
		<description>i think it would be a bigger crap on the character of darkseid to have him be fooled by mary marvel. he&#039;s supposed to be the ultimate badass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think it would be a bigger crap on the character of darkseid to have him be fooled by mary marvel. he's supposed to be the ultimate badass.</p>
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