Comic Book Resources

That does suck. I don't pay much attention to sales, but that really seems like a book that would sell well. Good character, lots of history/name recognition, good creative team, plus the lowest common denominator aspect of a skintight bodysuit on the cover all the time.

I'm actually surprised it lasted as long Brubakerless as it did. Do you think it might get a post-Final Crisis relaunch?

I heard someone speculate that the covers actually hurt the book. The T&A crowd might not have found what they were looking for beyond the covers and serious minded readers might have been kept away by them.

Catwoman should join the Titans. Solved.

I sympathize. But still, 80-some issues is better than ten or twelve, which is where a lot of my "beloved books no one else was reading" got cut off: Chase, Hourman, Power Company, etc.

You raise an interesting point about shitty revivals, though. Here is my question. Read the message boards and the various fan press sites and here is the consensus. No one likes Judd Winnick's stuff. No one likes Countdown. No one liked Meltzer's JLA. No one liked "One More Day." Everyone who hated "One More Day" was swearing to boycott "Brand New Day."

But if you look at actual SALES, those are all through the roof. So is everyone on the internet lying about what they like? Or are none of the people reading that stuff using the net at all?

See, my theory is that fans just straight-up lie about what they want. Because, to take Mark Waid's famous example, if you go according to what fans SAY they want, then the biggest hit ever should have been Untold Tales of Spider-Man. It was a critical darling, it sold at a lower price, it was fun, it had no crossovers, it didn't take itself so damn seriously, it was back-to-basics, etc., etc. And that book tanked after two years and it was never a hit.

On the other hand, heavy-continuity, event-type-crossover books are usually huge. X-Factor just got a big bump out of Messiah Complex, Countdown continues to do huge numbers, etc., etc. So what's the deal? Those people who genuinely read and enjoy these books because of all those things everyone is bitching about should at least own up to it, goddammit.

I really hope the put David Lopez on a bigger assingment this time, he deserves a series with a higher profile, or let him write the book, he made a series in Spain with female lead characters and he's quite good.

Of course you're right, Greg. Pfeifer wrote the book for almost 40 issues, which is pretty darned good. Plus, most of the stuff before it was very good, too (I guess the few issues prior to his run weren't that good).

I don't think it's a case of fans lying. I just think there are quite a lot of fans who aren't on the Internet, and they drive sales. I know a lot of people in the comics shops I visit who are very excited about the latest mega-crossover. I don't know if they're on the Internet lying about it, but in person, they do own up to it!

I don’t pay much attention to sales, but that really seems like a book that would sell well.

Except for the part where it sold really, really badly, this is a spot-on comment!

(I liked it too, but let's be honest: Catwoman has sold really badly for a very long time and Catwoman is a character whose crossover potential into other media has been explored and fucked up hardcore. This isn't a Blue Beetle situation, where the book sells poorly but everybody likes it and the character has serious growth potential in other media.)

Greg Hatcher, I think it's more likely that comic book fans who post on the internet have different tastes than comic fans who don't post on the internet. If you buy comic books from a small town comic book shop without doing research, you're likely to have access to a smaller variety of comics, and you're likely to buy more mainstream comics.

I mean, offer a random person on the street their choice of a copy of Amazing Spiderman or Immortal Iron Fist. Unless they are familiar with current comics, they're going to choose Amazing Spiderman.

Also, people only post their opinions about comics if they care about them. There's probably a bunch of people who don't care about Catwoman enough to either buy it or post about it.

'Because, to take Mark Waid’s famous example, if you go according to what fans SAY they want, then the biggest hit ever should have been Untold Tales of Spider-Man. It was a critical darling, it sold at a lower price, it was fun, it had no crossovers, it didn’t take itself so damn seriously, it was back-to-basics, etc., etc. And that book tanked after two years and it was never a hit."

There are a couple problems with that example. One thing fans want is stories that matter. Untold Tales was set in the past so it could be safely missed and you'd still get along fine with the current stories. Not to mention that it came out during the clone saga when people were getting fed up with the Spider-man books. The fans who stuck with it were already being forced to pick up up to 5 books a month to keep up with the story. And the readers who quit might be apt to leave Spidey all together. And wouldn't a $.99 book have to sell twice as much to stay alive?

Wow, this does suck for a variety of reasons.
No more explorations of Selina's complex psyche.
No more Adam Hughes covers.
I'm glad that the book, for the most part, still is (for the few remaining issues) what it set out to be: the chronicles of Selina protecting her friends, family, and East End, neither hero nor villain. Let's face it - at least we got a few years worth of stories that were better than the previous Catwoman book.
Long live Selina Kyle!
Long live Catwoman!

See, my theory is that fans just straight-up lie about what they want. Because, to take Mark Waid’s famous example, if you go according to what fans SAY they want, then the biggest hit ever should have been Untold Tales of Spider-Man. It was a critical darling, it sold at a lower price, it was fun, it had no crossovers, it didn’t take itself so damn seriously, it was back-to-basics, etc., etc. And that book tanked after two years and it was never a hit.

I think that there are sort of three audiences for comics. The first is the stereotypical fan-boy type, who has a clear preference for a Big Two publisher, buys all their 'main-line' books, complains about them, but rarely even samples oddball stuff from their 'home' publisher much less other publishers. The second is someone who follows superheroes in other media, but reads comics sporadically. A big name working on their favorite character might draw them in for a few months, but the first major cross-over into that title prices out their interest. The third is a real lover of the medium of comics. They read lots of different genres and a variety of publishers. They love comics and worry about them.

IMO, people who post on the internet are mostly type 3, but the vast majority of the purchasers are type 1. For the record, I am a type 2 who got sucked back in by Grant Morrison and All-Star Superman.

I think Thok has a valid point about the impact of small town comic book shops. I live in a very small town and fortunately it does have a comic book shop. The owner is a good man who has a clear love for the medium. But he only orders what he can sell. Hence, many critically acclaimed, or simply very good, titles are not on the shelf at his store because no one will buy them. No one buys Catwoman at my shop and as a result it is not on the shelf. Because of the advance ordering system of the direct market, if I wanted to try Catwoman, I would have to ask the shop owner to put it on my pull list. Doing so would mean that I am obligated to buy at least several issues. I simply cannot afford to buy several issues of a series that I may ultimately decide is not for me. If I could buy one issue off the shelf, then I am likely to give a title a try and if I like it, I will keep getting. If I do not like it, then I am only out three or four dollars rather than twelve or fifteen. It is the economics of the direct market that keep me, and probably others in a small town, from buying a wider variety of titles.

Well this sucks.

Ok, I've moved on.

What's Will on next?

That's a pity. I've only been reading since #72, but I've been enjoying it a lot.

That said, I, for one, found the new Titans book to be surprisingly competent. I think it has plenty of potential to be better than the current Teen Titans book (which isn't saying much, given how lackluster McKeever's run is turning out).

In response to the "fans as liars" idea, I think there is some truth to it- but not quite in the way you are thinking. I can speak from experience that posting an unpopular opinion can get you flamed and drowned out pretty quickly (even on this site). So people who do enjoy some Winick (like me, with his Green Arrow work or the Outsiders) don't feel like getting harassed by the people who feel the need to belittle others' tastes. The anonymity of the internet seems to embolden people to ridicule others in a way they would never have the guts to in person (I have been guilty of this in the past myself but now try to avoid it). I think only the trolls want to intentionally post a comment that they know will get people pissed at them.

On a site like this, that seems to occasionally have an anti-mainstream bias (unless it is mainstream from 20 years ago or more- not trying to be snarky but it is somewhat true), it is going to draw out the commenters that are most likely to agree with the staff writers. Therefore, who would I be addressing if I posted a comment that says, "I think Winick can write solid superhero action when he isn't on his soapbox"? I get the impression (whether true or not) that most of the staff here would not agree and most of the commenters wouldn't either, so I am just setting myself up for ridicule and bickering. All that is to say, the internet has many opinions that are not necessarily being heard because there aren't many places free from hyperbolic discussion. People who write passionately and well about their interests, like politicians who speak eloquently about their positions or media outlets with an agenda, can skew the overall perception of tastes on the internet but the real pulse of popularity is seen in sales figures. So, for every horrible title I keep buying for some reason (Countdown), there are three titles I enjoy that I can't tell if anyone else does (Superman, the Atom, and Shadowpact) and three I know it is safe to praise (Checkmate, Blue Beetle and Batman...even if I don't know what the hell is going on in some issues of that last one). So, I think people stick to titles that are "safe" to discuss and just stay out of it if something they like is getting bashed. Just a thought.

I think winterteeth pretty much nailed it. I also think it depends on where exactly on the internet you're looking. When Secret Invasion #1 came out, I did a search for somewhere that had spoilers on the issue, since I wanted to know who was a skrull, but was not about to buy the issue. I ended up on some very Marvel-centric message board, pretty much filled with comments from people saying that Secret Invasion #1 was probably the best comic they had ever read, and many flat out saying it was the best comic ever. I'm willing to bet there's message boards saying the same things about Countdown, or Civil War, or the most recent Rob Liefield comic book. So I do think part of it is that most of us here probably check out the same group of comic blogs, and all of those have somewhat similar tastes.

All-New Atom also just bit the dust, which surprised me quite a bit. DC had actually done some hyping of Rick Remender and Pat Oliffe taking over the book (which they just did, what, 2 issues ago?) so I had assumed it was on the safe list like Blue Beetle. Apparently not, unless this is one of those editorially-driven cancellations...

And yeah, sympathies for the Catwoman fans. As I've said here before, Pfeiffer's CW never did much for me and I dropped it shortly after One Year Later, but I still thought it was a quality book and could see why people were so devoted to it. With a character as well known and as established as Selina, I can't imagine she'll stay out of the spotlight (or even her own eponymous book) for very long.

"So is everyone on the internet lying about what they like? Or are none of the people reading that stuff using the net at all?"

It's never a good idea to generalize from the Internet to the general population. If it were, then the Firefly movie and Snakes on a Plane would have been the biggest box office blockbusters in the history of ever, and we would be coming off the second term of President Howard Dean just in time for Ron Paul to walk off with the election.

A title that has been for years consistently good and often great, ruined by crossover madness. Sheesh!

This is all my doing. Since I never liked Catwoman as a character, I have been plotting this for years. It's all in response to DC canceling the Joker's series back in the 70's.

Really though, it sucks for people who liked it. God knows you're lucky if you can find one book a month that gives you some enjoyment with the crap that's out there (You know like most of my pull list).

All-New Atom also just bit the dust, which surprised me quite a bit. DC had actually done some hyping of Rick Remender and Pat Oliffe taking over the book (which they just did, what, 2 issues ago?) so I had assumed it was on the safe list like Blue Beetle. Apparently not, unless this is one of those editorially-driven cancellations…

Wow... Really? That seemed like a title that was worth keeping around and letting grow. I guess that isn't so common anymore.

It is a shame.
The 'leather and goggles' Catwoman was a vast improvement over the previous representation but after issue 50 or so, the title seemed to have become rather directionless.

This is disapointing but I'm not really surprised. I seem to have developed a pattern of backing all the series that get cancelled...
Immortal Iron Fist next?

Yeah, I have to go with the "there are just more people buying than posting on the Internet" theory as well. And then there are also the people who hate the books but keep buying them anyway out of habit.

And then there's the phenomenon of multiple copies for one buyer. At my local store, I observe every week people buying multiple copies (sometimes as many as ten) of the newest "hot" release from Marvel or DC, likely to resell on eBay. You also get a small number of buyers who pick up copies of each variant of a book, again for compulsive completism.

Also important is the difference between Diamond sales and in-store sales. If a book receives 100,000 orders, and half those copies sit on the shelves, the book only had, at most, 50,000 actual readers.

What winterteeth said.

People in the Internet aren't only more argumentantive than in RL, it's also very hard to resist trying to get in the last word. Discussions tend to be long, dragged out affairs. You might admit to an unpopular oppinion a few times, but after a while it gets tiresome, having to fight for your oppinions every damn time. Far easier to just save you the trouble. It isn't exactly "lying".

Anyway, the people who post on the Internet in all-purpose comic book sites (as opposed to sites dedicated to a single publisher or a single character) usually are the older, jaded fans. The veterans that have seen too much.

I loved the series, but it seemed to be getting to this point. I had my doubts about it's long-term status after the baby. It's strange, though: I don't know why I first picked up an issue of this title (prob. back near the end of Brubaker's run) but I kept on getting it and have been enjoying it (more than Nightwing and for awhile, even Robin). I had never really been huge on Catwoman as a character, but something about it kept me on. Regardless, I'll keep an eye on what Pfeifer does next. He had a good run here.

So how long until Birds of Prey is canned?

So how long until Birds of Prey is canned?

I have to think it's on the bubble, and so is Brave and Bold. According to the numbers from ICv2 that Heidi posts over on The Beat every so often, they're doing about the same numbers as the Classified books and Catwoman were doing. The numbers are an interesting, if unnerving, picture of direct-market superhero sales from the Big Two, especially when you remember, as Michael points out, that those are retailer, wholesale ORDERS and not actual retail SALES.

Marvel also canned MARVEL ADVENTURES IRON MAN, one of their better titles. A shame.

CATWOMAN is up until #82.

You know, I kept hearing about how great Catwoman was, but two issues after I started picking it up, the title got embroiled in Salvation Run, something that I'm just not interested in. Just sayin, I don't know what the overall impact on sales was, but in at least my case the crossover caused me to drop the title.

Don't base your Catwoman experience on the craptastic Salvation Run tie-in.

Pick up the trade "Catwoman's Dead" if you really want to know why Greg and I are broken up about the loss of this book.

And yet, Judd Winick manages to write multiple books for DC. There is NO justice I tell ya.

And the world should be broken up that we're not treated to a regular Adam Hughes cover featuring Selina Kyle anymore. That's just an awful truth I have yet to fully accept. And I probably never will.

As I noted in the DC Universe thread noting the cancellation (which is how I found out about it), the cancellation was inevitable once I (a) added it to my pull list & (b) amassed the entire run via eBay. Both of those happened only this month. (Actually, I'm still waiting for the mailman to bring the last 10 or so issues.

Under the same scenario, fans of Green Lantern & Black Canary should be very, very afraid. I still lack #2 (& while I could've sworn I picked up #6 at the nearest LCS last week, that seems not to have been the case), though, so I guess the title gets to live on for now.

Ah, well -- between this & All-New Atom (whose new direction I was finding a bit off-putting anyway), at least DC is doing my job for me & thinning out my (semi-)monthly purchases. Marvel & Image really need to step up to the plate next, I suppose.

I'm with winterteeth and Rene. There's little reward in standing up for something unpopular when you know you're going to get back a chorus of "Winick sucks" or "Countdown blows" or whatever. Monty Python summed up the phenomenon perfectly:

"Look, I came here for an argument!"

"Oh, I'm sorry, but this is abuse."

Dan - That's exactly what happened to me with Young Justice. I start picking it up, love it, buy up all the back issues I can find, and then BAM! It's canceled.

I always buy Titans, I never buy Catwoman. Titans have interested me and usually manage to keep me interested past issue 1, while Catwoman never really worked for me. I simply enjoy her better as a supporting character than as the star of her own book. Buy Manhunter instead to make up for this cancellation, and you'll keep one strong female character's title alive at least.

I loved the book, but if they were going to cancel it, they should've done it BEFORE Salvation Run; that last issue with Zatanna and the baby was a tearjerker and one of the best comics I've read in a while.

Hooking her up with the BoP seems a natural, but one with a lot of built in conflict. And BoP has really faltered since Simone left; she more or less made the series what it was.

Actually, BIrds of Prey is also a comic that's doomed, because I've gone the Catwoman route with it & added it to my pull list & bought tons of back issues.

Then again, as long as certain back issues remain exorbinantly priced -- #8, come on down! -- I'll never have the complete run, so again, I guess this one is sort of safe.

Michael --

Actually, even as we speak I'm trying to track down a complete run of Young Justice, but they go for higher than I'm willing (or, let's face it, able) to pay. (Changing the subject slightly -- shouldn't someone at DC monitor these sorts of things, see that people are willing to pay in the triple digits for a complete run of a title, & ... y'know ... at least THINK about bringing it out in TPB?) If I ever do somehow manage to do it, I'm sure DC will mark the occasion by bringing YJ back for one issue, then cancelling it summarily.

Fuck shit crap!

Of course it got cancelled!
It was consistently a great title since it started (except when Gulacy joined)!

Surely if enough people complained about this development we could bring it back, like Manhunter?