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	<title>Comments on: John Seavey&#8217;s Storytelling Engines: Robin</title>
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	<description>Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good!</description>
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		<title>By: red-Ricky</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668703</link>
		<dc:creator>red-Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668703</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;i&gt;The â€œHoly Whatever, Batman!â€ comes mostly from the TV show, yes, but Robinâ€™s been making terrible puns almost since the characterâ€™s introduction.&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Again, so has Batman... old chum!

But all that was, pretty much gone by the mid 70&#039;s when Batman was made &quot;more serious&quot; and Robin was taken off the Batman titles and paired up with Batgirl (as the new Dynamic Duo) in the pages of Batman Family.

There were some attempts at giving Robin his own rogues; like with the Joker&#039;s Daughter.  But this was &quot;an era&quot; where DC was going out of their way to write some pretty awful comics.

And hey, it&#039;s not the character&#039;s fault he was written badly.  In fact, it&#039;s a testament to the character the fact that he&#039;s survived &quot;short-shorts&quot;, bad puns and editorial mandates designed to burry all incarnations of him, his girlfriends and fathers (or father figures).

But at the end of the day, and regardless of  those &quot;showcases&quot;, Robin&#039;s storytelling engine is that of the Aprentice.  Of the hero in training.  And it&#039;s timeless.

Robin is to Batman, what Bruce Wayne was to Ducard in &lt;b&gt;Batman Begins&lt;/b&gt;.  What the Skywalkers were to Kenobi.  What Kenobi was to Ducard... wait, what? ...err... you get my drift.  In a world where being a Superhero is an option, seeking out the Batman as a trainer is as natural as seeking out Yoda, or Mr. Miyagi.

The main problem Robin&#039;s had, and you mentioned this, is that he has been written as the way the grown-ups see their &quot;current&quot; teen-generation. Consequently, he&#039;s been written as a... &quot;leave it to Beaver&quot; character, a Beatnik, a College dropout, an untrusting rebel and so on.

But a good Robin story (like the ones written by Dixon) shows the character traveling the world... training... and learning new fighting techniques from ancient masters.  And in the case of Nightwing, where the character has finished his training, you get the occasional flashback that shows him learning and getting his experience with Batman.  And that&#039;s the problem I see with some versions of Nightwing.  Some writers try too hard.  They want to cut all ties with the character&#039;s history and when that happens, it ends up being &quot;just a guy in a jump suit&quot; that knows karate.  For a Nightwing story to be good, it has to embrace its history, that he was once Robin.  Otherwise, there&#039;s nothing special about him.

And as far as &quot;a serious superhero in short shorts&quot;.

You got to admit, it&#039;s a purely aesthetic decision.  

In a world where Heroes wear their underoos on the outside, it&#039;s ridiculous to point out that Robin is wearing shorts.

But if you need some sort of logic for it, then here it is...

Superheroes are fighters.  That&#039;s mostly what they do; fight.  In a world with Superpowers, they are your wrestlers, your mix-martial artists, your boxers, etc.  To critizise Robin&#039;s shorts is to critizise Tito Ortiz, Kevin Von Erich, Hulk Hogan and a zillion other fighters or &quot;rasslers&quot;.  

In other words, it may not be my (or your) cup of tea; but apprarently, it&#039;s a look... or a preference.  

Like wearing panties under a short tight mini-skirt, and then flying all over Metropolis for its citizens to enjoy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<i>The â€œHoly Whatever, Batman!â€ comes mostly from the TV show, yes, but Robinâ€™s been making terrible puns almost since the characterâ€™s introduction.</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>Again, so has Batman&#8230; old chum!</p>
<p>But all that was, pretty much gone by the mid 70&#8242;s when Batman was made &#8220;more serious&#8221; and Robin was taken off the Batman titles and paired up with Batgirl (as the new Dynamic Duo) in the pages of Batman Family.</p>
<p>There were some attempts at giving Robin his own rogues; like with the Joker&#8217;s Daughter.  But this was &#8220;an era&#8221; where DC was going out of their way to write some pretty awful comics.</p>
<p>And hey, it&#8217;s not the character&#8217;s fault he was written badly.  In fact, it&#8217;s a testament to the character the fact that he&#8217;s survived &#8220;short-shorts&#8221;, bad puns and editorial mandates designed to burry all incarnations of him, his girlfriends and fathers (or father figures).</p>
<p>But at the end of the day, and regardless of  those &#8220;showcases&#8221;, Robin&#8217;s storytelling engine is that of the Aprentice.  Of the hero in training.  And it&#8217;s timeless.</p>
<p>Robin is to Batman, what Bruce Wayne was to Ducard in <b>Batman Begins</b>.  What the Skywalkers were to Kenobi.  What Kenobi was to Ducard&#8230; wait, what? &#8230;err&#8230; you get my drift.  In a world where being a Superhero is an option, seeking out the Batman as a trainer is as natural as seeking out Yoda, or Mr. Miyagi.</p>
<p>The main problem Robin&#8217;s had, and you mentioned this, is that he has been written as the way the grown-ups see their &#8220;current&#8221; teen-generation. Consequently, he&#8217;s been written as a&#8230; &#8220;leave it to Beaver&#8221; character, a Beatnik, a College dropout, an untrusting rebel and so on.</p>
<p>But a good Robin story (like the ones written by Dixon) shows the character traveling the world&#8230; training&#8230; and learning new fighting techniques from ancient masters.  And in the case of Nightwing, where the character has finished his training, you get the occasional flashback that shows him learning and getting his experience with Batman.  And that&#8217;s the problem I see with some versions of Nightwing.  Some writers try too hard.  They want to cut all ties with the character&#8217;s history and when that happens, it ends up being &#8220;just a guy in a jump suit&#8221; that knows karate.  For a Nightwing story to be good, it has to embrace its history, that he was once Robin.  Otherwise, there&#8217;s nothing special about him.</p>
<p>And as far as &#8220;a serious superhero in short shorts&#8221;.</p>
<p>You got to admit, it&#8217;s a purely aesthetic decision.  </p>
<p>In a world where Heroes wear their underoos on the outside, it&#8217;s ridiculous to point out that Robin is wearing shorts.</p>
<p>But if you need some sort of logic for it, then here it is&#8230;</p>
<p>Superheroes are fighters.  That&#8217;s mostly what they do; fight.  In a world with Superpowers, they are your wrestlers, your mix-martial artists, your boxers, etc.  To critizise Robin&#8217;s shorts is to critizise Tito Ortiz, Kevin Von Erich, Hulk Hogan and a zillion other fighters or &#8220;rasslers&#8221;.  </p>
<p>In other words, it may not be my (or your) cup of tea; but apprarently, it&#8217;s a look&#8230; or a preference.  </p>
<p>Like wearing panties under a short tight mini-skirt, and then flying all over Metropolis for its citizens to enjoy.</p>
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		<title>By: suedenim</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668578</link>
		<dc:creator>suedenim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668578</guid>
		<description>Incidentally, I think Tomasi&#039;s doing an excellent job of making New York seem like a real place.

Well, obviously, New York *is* a real place, but it&#039;s surprising how in decades of New York comic book writers writing stories set in New York, the city often seems devoid of much character.  Maybe it&#039;s just all those writers knowing New York and thinking &quot;Eh, what&#039;s so special about it, it&#039;s just home,&quot; or it&#039;s just easier to treat it semi-generically apart from the stuff tourists would recognize?  But I like seeing all these weird little New York nooks and crannies and details from Tomasi - cool stuff that *I&#039;m* unfamiliar with as a non-New Yorker, anyway....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, I think Tomasi&#8217;s doing an excellent job of making New York seem like a real place.</p>
<p>Well, obviously, New York *is* a real place, but it&#8217;s surprising how in decades of New York comic book writers writing stories set in New York, the city often seems devoid of much character.  Maybe it&#8217;s just all those writers knowing New York and thinking &#8220;Eh, what&#8217;s so special about it, it&#8217;s just home,&#8221; or it&#8217;s just easier to treat it semi-generically apart from the stuff tourists would recognize?  But I like seeing all these weird little New York nooks and crannies and details from Tomasi &#8211; cool stuff that *I&#8217;m* unfamiliar with as a non-New Yorker, anyway&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668569</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:05:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668569</guid>
		<description>&quot;What made the difference? Arguably, Chuck Dixon. &quot;

I&#039;d be stunned if you could find ANYONE who&#039;d put up much of an argument against that, frankly.

As for the post-Dixon-era... yeah, Devin Grayson really fumbled the ball. I mean, I understand that she REALLY wanted to go with the theory that Nightwing was now DC&#039;s version of Daredevil, but doing a poor riff on Born Again probably wasn&#039;t the smartest thing. I won&#039;t even start on the weird rape fantasy thing going on with the Tarantula subplot.

Tomasi, as I&#039;ve noted many times, has mainly gotten back to Dixon-era basics, even if I like the idea of Dick as a cop rather than the museum curator role he&#039;s in now, and Bludhaven was obviously preferable to New York.

One of the big things of Dixon&#039;s Nightwing run was not only his establishment of the status quo, but also that he talked the reader through what a hero needed to do to establish himself in a city where he didn&#039;t have much in the way of experience or resources. Sure, he had to cheat a little bit (Nightwing suddenly having millions of dollars tucked away in a trust account made for a convenient plot smoother), but just things like &quot;okay, how does a hero build a supercar?&quot; made for great reads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What made the difference? Arguably, Chuck Dixon. &#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be stunned if you could find ANYONE who&#8217;d put up much of an argument against that, frankly.</p>
<p>As for the post-Dixon-era&#8230; yeah, Devin Grayson really fumbled the ball. I mean, I understand that she REALLY wanted to go with the theory that Nightwing was now DC&#8217;s version of Daredevil, but doing a poor riff on Born Again probably wasn&#8217;t the smartest thing. I won&#8217;t even start on the weird rape fantasy thing going on with the Tarantula subplot.</p>
<p>Tomasi, as I&#8217;ve noted many times, has mainly gotten back to Dixon-era basics, even if I like the idea of Dick as a cop rather than the museum curator role he&#8217;s in now, and Bludhaven was obviously preferable to New York.</p>
<p>One of the big things of Dixon&#8217;s Nightwing run was not only his establishment of the status quo, but also that he talked the reader through what a hero needed to do to establish himself in a city where he didn&#8217;t have much in the way of experience or resources. Sure, he had to cheat a little bit (Nightwing suddenly having millions of dollars tucked away in a trust account made for a convenient plot smoother), but just things like &#8220;okay, how does a hero build a supercar?&#8221; made for great reads.</p>
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		<title>By: suedenim</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668542</link>
		<dc:creator>suedenim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:50:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668542</guid>
		<description>For whatever it&#039;s worth, the setting and name of Bludhaven wasn&#039;t Dixon&#039;s idea, but one of only a couple of odd editorial mandates when he took over the book (I think using Blockbuster might have been another.)

The post-Dixon Nightwing really should become a textbook example of What Not To Do with an ongoing series.  I found the &quot;Officer Dick Grayson&quot; storyline particularly intriguing.  Peter Tomasi seems to (finally) be doing a good job of establishing a context and supporting cast for Nightwing again... but he&#039;s had to start from scratch, and who knows if all the good work *he* is doing will get blown up by the next &quot;hot&quot; writer to follow him?

I&#039;ve been reorganizing my collection, came across and re-read the Robin &quot;Joker&#039;s Wild&quot; miniseries.  Dixon did a *really* nice job of building up a character there.  Robin has to take on the Joker alone, with no backup, and it&#039;s pretty damn scary.  With some stories like this, the Joker would be &quot;dumbed down&quot; to make him a better match for Robin, but he&#039;s not.  Robin wins in the end, of course, and impresses the reader that this (then) new kid is &quot;for real,&quot; but in a believable fashion, a near-run thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For whatever it&#8217;s worth, the setting and name of Bludhaven wasn&#8217;t Dixon&#8217;s idea, but one of only a couple of odd editorial mandates when he took over the book (I think using Blockbuster might have been another.)</p>
<p>The post-Dixon Nightwing really should become a textbook example of What Not To Do with an ongoing series.  I found the &#8220;Officer Dick Grayson&#8221; storyline particularly intriguing.  Peter Tomasi seems to (finally) be doing a good job of establishing a context and supporting cast for Nightwing again&#8230; but he&#8217;s had to start from scratch, and who knows if all the good work *he* is doing will get blown up by the next &#8220;hot&#8221; writer to follow him?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reorganizing my collection, came across and re-read the Robin &#8220;Joker&#8217;s Wild&#8221; miniseries.  Dixon did a *really* nice job of building up a character there.  Robin has to take on the Joker alone, with no backup, and it&#8217;s pretty damn scary.  With some stories like this, the Joker would be &#8220;dumbed down&#8221; to make him a better match for Robin, but he&#8217;s not.  Robin wins in the end, of course, and impresses the reader that this (then) new kid is &#8220;for real,&#8221; but in a believable fashion, a near-run thing.</p>
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		<title>By: John Seavey</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668530</link>
		<dc:creator>John Seavey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668530</guid>
		<description>The &quot;Holy Whatever, Batman!&quot; comes mostly from the TV show, yes, but Robin&#039;s been making terrible puns almost since the character&#039;s introduction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;Holy Whatever, Batman!&#8221; comes mostly from the TV show, yes, but Robin&#8217;s been making terrible puns almost since the character&#8217;s introduction.</p>
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		<title>By: red-Ricky</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668528</link>
		<dc:creator>red-Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 09:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668528</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;i&gt;And heâ€™s also a source of comic relief, if your source of humor trends towards terrible puns and the overuse of the phrase, â€œHoly (fill in the blank), Batman!â€&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Oh, come on!  That&#039;s a cheap shot!

I mean, Batman&#039;s Batusi doesn&#039;t get credit for being a source of sweet and revolutionary dance moves... in the 60&#039;s &amp; 90&#039;s!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
<i>And heâ€™s also a source of comic relief, if your source of humor trends towards terrible puns and the overuse of the phrase, â€œHoly (fill in the blank), Batman!â€</i>
</p></blockquote>
<p>Oh, come on!  That&#8217;s a cheap shot!</p>
<p>I mean, Batman&#8217;s Batusi doesn&#8217;t get credit for being a source of sweet and revolutionary dance moves&#8230; in the 60&#8242;s &amp; 90&#8242;s!</p>
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		<title>By: John Trumbull</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668517</link>
		<dc:creator>John Trumbull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 06:47:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668517</guid>
		<description>I think Dixon did a great job establishing a new status quo for Dick Grayson/Nightwing -- his own city (albeit one with a silly name), cool supporting characters like ex-superhero Jonathan Law &amp; Dick&#039;s landlady Clancy, a career direction of his own (Dick Grayson as a cop), the beginnings of his own rogues gallery (The new Blockbuster, Lady Vic, Shrike) -- and then it all got torpedoed by subsequent writers, leaving Dick Grayson back at square one.  

Note to DC &amp; Marvel: Radically changing a character&#039;s status quo &amp; supporting cast isn&#039;t all that interesting when you do it every two years or so.  Give readers something -- and someone -- to latch onto &amp; look forward to seeing every month, and then try to tell interesting stories within that framework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Dixon did a great job establishing a new status quo for Dick Grayson/Nightwing &#8212; his own city (albeit one with a silly name), cool supporting characters like ex-superhero Jonathan Law &amp; Dick&#8217;s landlady Clancy, a career direction of his own (Dick Grayson as a cop), the beginnings of his own rogues gallery (The new Blockbuster, Lady Vic, Shrike) &#8212; and then it all got torpedoed by subsequent writers, leaving Dick Grayson back at square one.  </p>
<p>Note to DC &amp; Marvel: Radically changing a character&#8217;s status quo &amp; supporting cast isn&#8217;t all that interesting when you do it every two years or so.  Give readers something &#8212; and someone &#8212; to latch onto &amp; look forward to seeing every month, and then try to tell interesting stories within that framework.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent J. Murphy</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668471</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent J. Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 22:34:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668471</guid>
		<description>I would argue that the reason Dixon&#039;s characters were killed off is that they were pretty lame, and mostly bad riffs on Batman&#039;s rogue&#039;s gallery in a ridiculously named city. Some character additions deserved to get nuked by Chemo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that the reason Dixon&#8217;s characters were killed off is that they were pretty lame, and mostly bad riffs on Batman&#8217;s rogue&#8217;s gallery in a ridiculously named city. Some character additions deserved to get nuked by Chemo.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Ryan</title>
		<link>http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/07/01/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-robin/comment-page-1/#comment-668459</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=17495#comment-668459</guid>
		<description>I sometimes think the only reason the DC universe is permanently set ten years into the modern superhero reign is because it allows Dick Grayson to be an adult. Good note that fixing Robin&#039;s status quo gave us two good characters from it, not one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sometimes think the only reason the DC universe is permanently set ten years into the modern superhero reign is because it allows Dick Grayson to be an adult. Good note that fixing Robin&#8217;s status quo gave us two good characters from it, not one.</p>
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