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**That said, between the fact that I’ve never entirely been able to get on the train of thought that any violence against women, at all, ever, is inherently misogynistic (the one that’s been part of the debate about this sort of thing since, what, Women in Refrigerators**

Women in Refridgerators isn’t saying “all violence against women in comics is misogynist.” Women in Refridgerators trope describes violence against women in comics that has *no purpose* except to serve the story of a male character.

When a male character in comics gets beat up, he usually picks himself up, dusts himself off and comes back stronger. He gets to beat up the villain. He gets to avenge the wrongs that were done.

“Women in Refridgerators” is what happens when a female character in comics gets knocked down, but *not* so that it can be a story about her overcoming her fear, or training harder to be stronger, or coming up with a smarter plan in order to take down the villain. In a Women in Refridgerators story, a female character gets beat up so that a male character can step in, vow revenge over her hospital bed, and go beat up the villain, because the story is all about him.

The female character is meaningless except as a plot device. The story would be exactly the same if the villain had killed the hero’s dog or blown up his car. Only the male character’s emotions and actions are important. This is lame even when it’s a story about some random made-up girlfriend character, but it’s super, super lame when it’s an awesome, kickass character like, say, Black Canary, who is getting sidelined and turned into cheap angst for someone else’s story.

Quite true, Buzz Girl, but not everyone in the ongoing discussion about violence and women in comic books has been able to make that distinction.

I’m enjoying this review, Brad, but then I’m waiting for the paperback collection.

There is no “d” in “refrigerator.”

**Quite true, Buzz Girl, but not everyone in the ongoing discussion about violence and women in comic books has been able to make that distinction.**

Man, tell me about it. Too many people just can’t let go of that “You think ANY violence against a female is sexist!” straw man argument, or understand that there’s a difference between a female heroine with her own story, and one being used as a cheap plot device. It’s not a hard distinction to make. But I guess the “straw man” version of WiR *is* useful if you want to dismiss any criticism of a WiR storyline.

“There is no “d” in “refrigerator.”

Thank you, Michael, I didn’t realize that this was Spelling Correction Day on Comics Should Be Good. But since it apparently is, here are some notes for Brad:

indescretions is actually spelled “indiscretions”

portrayls should be “portrayals”

tatoo should be “tattoo”

There should also be an apostrophe after starlets– “starlets’ anatomy”

“swastika” is not a proper noun and so should not be capitalized

vigrins should be “virgins”

physicially should be “physically”

It cracks me up when people get shocked by pointless violence and misogyny in Miller books… that’s what his books are all about!

I really get the vibe that people seemed to think he writing true comics literature up until a few years ago, and now people are shocked that he has ultra-violence and character types instead of characters… wasn’t that the appeal all along?

I think what Mr. Rennie (and Mr. Curran) were saying, BuzzGirl, was that a number of online critics tend to err the other way– taking any violence befalling a female character as evidence of misogyny. In both cases– those who unilaterally call any kind of violence towards women as inherently misogynistic and those who, as you note, try to dismiss a meaningful discussion of the topic by saying that anyone who raises legitimate questions about that use of violence say such things about any kind of violence– are guilty of propping up straw men. It’d be better, I think, if both sides were civil to one another and conceded that the other had their points.

Or, to put it another way– both Andrea Dworkin and Rush Limbaugh were/are idiots. Wouldn’t the discourse be more enlightened if we all proceeded with the respect, wit, and integrity of someone like Joyce Carol Oates, instead of shrilly accusing the other of a logical fallacy or intellectual turpitude? Isn’t it better to approach any question as agnostics– with open minds– rather than as athiests and fundamentalists, who would never be able to meaningfully talk to the other about anything?

Miller really does write all women as either filthy whores or saintly vigrins .

The Spirit is going to be awesome! …wait, err… that’s not what you were going for, is it?

…I’ve never entirely been able to get on the train of thought that any violence against women, at all, ever, is inherently misogynistic (the one that’s been part of the debate about this sort of thing since, what, Women in Refrigerators…

Well… to be fair, the argument goes all the way back to Feminist and devoted comic book historian, Carol A. Strickland, who wrote the essay “The Rape of Ms. Marvel” way back in 1981. So, you know… knowing where knowing is due, and credit is half the battle, and …err… jazz is the other half of history, which is doomed!

Miller really does write all women as either filthy whores or saintly vigrins (okay, even I knew that one from the first 3 panels of a random Sin City trade. And I guess you have to give him a third female archetype, the bad ass dude with boobs, i.e. Elektra).

Yup.

It’s easy to say that Miller writes nothing but saints and whores when you don’t include the characters that don’t fit that misconception.The ones that are actually more capable that their male counterparts like Elektra, Martha Washington, and Casey. But I guess they fall under the man with boobs category(nothing offensive about THAT)

In my opinion, which all are welcome (and certain) to disagree with, the “Women in Refrigerators” concept is only valid is people using it make a distinction between “Violence against women that has no purpose beyond the male character’s reaction” and “Violence against supporting characters that has no purpose beyond the main character’s reaction.” The latter is just plot 101, the former is were charges of misogyny start to become valid.

For example, just about everything that happens to Sue Dibny in Identity Crisis is textbook WiR. If she were a man and/or Ralpher were a woman, those scenes would have, at the very least, been written much differently and expected to have a much different impact on the reader. On the other hand, there was a storyline in the original New Warriors comic where a gang attacked the families of all the New Warriors - shooting Firestar’s dad, kidnapping Nova’s brother and cutting his finger off, blowing up Rage’s grandmother, etc. The only point behind Rage’s grandma getting blown up was Rage’s reaction to it, but to call that a WiR moment would seem, to me, to be saying that it’s just fine to kill, torture, and maim MALE relatives just to get a reaction from heroes, but women are off limits. When people use something like that as part of a WiR argument, that’s when the message starts sounding like “all violence against women is misogynistic.”

violent archetypes in a Batman comic book? didn’t see that coming…

by the way, i really liked Miller’s take on Joker here…i’ve always wondered how these crazy ass Gotham hoods get underlings, especially the Joker, because he’s like King Crazy…he’s got to be able to put on the charm, or no one would work for him…for someone well versed in the criminal element, a “crusading lawyer” perhaps, there must be something nigh irresitable about the Clown Prince…

The secret is that Miller is actually a pretty bad writer and especially bad at character development.

Oh, is that the secret? Cool. ‘Year One’ must have been written by someone else, then.

OK. So does “All women are Saints, Whores, or Ninjas” cover everyone but Martha Washington?

“for someone well versed in the criminal element, a “crusading lawyer” perhaps, there must be something nigh irresitable about the Clown Prince…”

It’s been a while since I read that issue so correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought there was a pretty strong implication (heck, I think the lawyer actually says as much) that she only ended up there because he put something in her drink.

Creepy Rohypnol Joker? Oh my!

What’s the opposite of pointless violence?

Pointed?

Pointful?

Pointed, I’d say.

It cracks me up when people get shocked by pointless violence and misogyny in Miller books… that’s what his books are all about!

After 1995 or so. Before then he also had the capacity to write moving, nuanced stories like Born Again.

I look at Miller’s work now and it’s like meeting an old friend who’s been now developed schizophrenia: you see flashes of the thing that you used to love, but mostly it’s repulsive and scary.

Aw crap, it sent instead of giving me a carriage return.

But here’s the main difference: with an old friend with schizophrenia, you still care for them (or at least I have). With Frank Miller I’ve given up.

OK. So does “All women are Saints, Whores, or Ninjas” cover everyone but Martha Washington?

What about Robin in DKR?

Rohan- and Ronin, and Sin City and Give Me Liberty and Dark Kinght and Born Again and Man Without Fear….

Vengeance is not pointless violence.

IIRC, Steve Gerber wrote about how violence in stories should have a point- that violence is ugly and damaging, and has consequences. We should not shy away from showing violence, but we should consider its effect.

Miller managed to do so in Daredevil, especially in the “Russian Roulette” issue. He even had Carrie Kelly react to the dangerous new world into which she was thrust in DKR. In Sin City, the good-ish guys win (before they’re killed) and the bad-der guys get what’s coming to them. I wish Miller could get out of that mentality, as well as presenting that which is feminized (especially a feminized male) as weak (Catwoman in DKR) or corrupt (Joker in DKR, Xerxes in 300).

It’s been a while since I read that issue so correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought there was a pretty strong implication (heck, I think the lawyer actually says as much) that she only ended up there because he put something in her drink.

Yeah, that’s there, but it spoils the fun of missing the point!

The secret is that Miller is actually a pretty bad writer and especially bad at character development.

There’s development in All Star.
But who was in it for development?
It’s Frank Miller and Jim Lee doing Batman… what the heck else did people expect when this book came out?

I dunno, quality?

The best book DC comics publishes, hands down! And, a universe that’s my nomination for the post-Final Crisis/some DCU reset structure for the DCU. Put some tension in the DCU.

Rob- Exactly. Though I’d argue Year One stands above the lot of them in terms of character development and Miller’s own restraint.