Comic Book Resources

Just a note - Yue's statement passed a casual fact-check via my memory (In that I could not recall any examples of Northstar kissing anyone), but I'm mostly just taking Yue's word for it.

Well until he's in a MAX book, we won't see him kiss another man, because man-kisses aren't suitable for children.

Northstar's had four on-page kisses in about thirty years of writing. Two were Rogue, one was a lady carnie/ex-FLQer, and one was a nun. (I don't count the mouth-to-mouth with homophobe in 'Eve of Destruction.)

No wonder he's such a sourpuss all of the time.

Here we go -- I think all four are about halfway down this dial-up unfriendly link:

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/2310687.html

It's sad but not surprising since the Big Two still seem to be afraid of this whole 'gay' thing you hear about in the news and stuff.

It's become okay for them to have a character who IS gay, but actually showing them in a loving or committed relationship still seems to get short shrift. There are starting to be some changes to this, such as Obsidian's relationship with Todd in Manhunter, but it's been a long time coming.

Lesbians have gotten a little more of a pass, supposedly because they make better fanboy-fantasy fodder (hello alliteration) but even they sometimes make the publishers nervous (witness DC sitting on a Batwoman series due to hesitancy over putting out a 'gay Bat-character' series in a movie year...)

Northstar and Hector (Of Pantheon-Era Incredible Hulk fame, of course!) were hinted as having a bit of a thing goin' on, as depicted in this page from the Marvel Swimsuit Spectacular (Oh Jesus, please forgive me) and a couple of panels of the Rick Jones & Marlo Chandler Wedding issue of Hulk. No kissin', though.

Of course, the relationship could have been completely platonic and they just liked to discuss how tokenism masquerading as progressive relevance coupled with editorial cowardice and general uncreativity can lead to really, really boring characters.

It's pretty sad that possibly the most touching same-sex relationship in Big Two comics has been between a French gorilla and a brain in a jar.

Upon further thought, scratch the "same-sex" part, and replace "pretty sad" with "downright depressing".

I couldn't have put it better myself, layne.

Who are now both dead, thanks to Grodd, in Salvation Run...

I think Grodd should wear a beret as punishment...

"Lesbians have gotten a little more of a pass, supposedly because they make better fanboy-fantasy fodder (hello alliteration) but even they sometimes make the publishers nervous (witness DC sitting on a Batwoman series due to hesitancy over putting out a ‘gay Bat-character’ series in a movie year…)"

Hello, Haven't you been watching "The L Word"?

Lesbians are hot.
Lesbians are sexy.

I'd kiss him

Yeah, it's all part of the "liberal bias" perpetrated by the "gay mafia", as denounced by many a social conservative. A pity that this supposedly powerful gay mafia is really incompetent, since they couldn't even sneak in a kiss by one of the most known gay characters in comics.

Seriously, whatever liberal bias the writers may have will always be balanced by the execs and suits shaking in their little booties with fear of dreaded concerned parents and other boycott groups targeting their products.

Has Northstar ever had an boy friend on-screen?

I would replace the word "silly" with "cowardly." You can show someone with their face burnt off in standard Marvel continuity but if you show a man kissing hos boyfriend you have to wack an adult content warning on the cover. Lame.

Why in the name of spam would anybody want to see two male characters kiss? Yech! The costumes make them look "faggy" enough without them resorting to outright faggotry.

http://www.pinkkryptonite.com/2008/06/has_northstar_never_been_kisse.html

Actually, Northstar WAS kissed by a man once.

The Villain Pestilence, who needed to "absorb" something from him to regain his strength. (Alpha Flight vol. 1 # 36.)

Though this was before his officially coming out. And it was NOT a kiss of love, which was I think most you mean.

(That story also hinted that Northstar was VHI positive. But it could also have cured him (I don't recall.)

As a male, heterosexual reader, I do not disapprove of characters in a gay relation. I'm not going to look at any kissing or sex scenes involving them, but that's a matter of simply looking past it on to the next panel- not a reason to recoil in horror or refuse to buy a book. Being gay is only a big deal because or society makes it to be.

Amen to MCM's comment! I'm sick to death of Gay characters being pushed down our throats! This is one of the reasons comic reader-ship is down. So many people come into the shop nowadays and make comments on that very subject, "Did they have to put that in there" or "Why can't the comic companies keep this trash out of, (fill in the name of the comic)"? Soon after, most of these customers drop those comics and go on to something else.
Joe Q and Dan D, please listen to your long time customers and retailers: Get rid of these disgusting characters and bring back a renaissance in comics. If you do, the readers will come back.

Oh dammit, I misspelled HIV. It looks like "VH1"! That was NOT an intentional joke! Where's the Edit Post button here...?

"Hello, Haven’t you been watching “The L Word”?

Lesbians are hot.
Lesbians are sexy."

I haven't seen L Word but I do know the show and as a hetero male, I agree, lesbians are quite sexy at times. But my point was this- while comics has exploited girl-on-girl action considerably in the past, even the big companies seem reluctant to give a lesbian her own series. The one major exception to that being the work DC has done with Renee Montoya, both in 52 and as The Question in the Crime Bible mini. Which I applaud them for, especially since they've been able to define Renee as more than just a token lesbian and define her beyond her sexuality, which is where some writers of gay/lesbian characters stop.

I just found it odd the way DC has handled Batwoman since she was 'outed' in the media a year or two ago. They really tried downplaying it at the time, like they were embarrased by it, and according to Rich Johnston, they've been sitting on a Greg Rucka/JH Williams project because of uneasiness about putting out a lesbian-themed Bat-book. I guess the "Bat" is the key word here. I just find it ridiculous that a character's sexuality would be the sticking point for ANY comic in the year 2008, no matter what emblem the character wears on their chest...

Yes this silly! Discussing the grossness of being gay is bad enough but queer's in comic books? Now that is so gross it's silly to even think about it! As Scooby Doo and Shaggy would say, "Double YUCK, YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lesbians are not hot and are definitely not sexy. I don't look at other women in a lustful way and I don't want them to look at me in that manner.
Why is that even an issue and why would this type of material still be in comics? It seems to me that a lot of people have let their feelings be known and they want this type of subject matter out of comics. Because most comics are written for adults in this day and time, does not mean it has to be perverse and push the subject matter of gays on us. Comics should be sophisticated and written with a great story in mind; get rid of all the stuff that is causing people to quit reading comics!

How did this go from an intelligent discussion about depictions of homosexuals in comics to almost outright homophobia?

If these homophobes are serious in their comments and not simply making jokes that are falling flat, it would be easier to take them seriously if they used their real names and didn't hide behind pseudonyms like Klansmen hiding under their hoods. Step up and be witnessed, manly men. Oh, yeah, I'm straight.

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm just sitting here awaiting the COMICS RENAISSANCE where people set aside their televisions, video games, movies, and turn to reading (mostly) overpriced stories of people wearing non-"faggy" costumes and solving their problems through violence...

Oh, save us Dan and Joe! Save us please!

Not complaining at all though! Two men kissing is just GROSS. Ewwwwwwwwww. Blech. Barf.

I am not sure what I find more offensive, the idea that Northstar has been openly gay (in comics) for over 15 years and hasn't been shown kissing a partner or lover or that poster showing Hector and Northstar lounging about. It's not the poster that bugs me, but the idea that the only two openly gay male superheroes in the Marvel universe would find each other and date. It's like Chuck and Nancy at High or Frankie and Maria.

I just don't have much confidence that Marvel could have depicted a relationship between two gay men in a mature way.

And I don't for one second believe that readers are boycotting because of gay characters!

I wonder if MCM, Avengers4ever, Circleoffire, and Menandwomenarenothesame are all the same person flooding this thread.

Whether you're the same person or different ones, I find your behaviour to be as gross, perverse, and obnoxious as you find gays. Yet, I don't wish you to be banished from public life and to be made invisible. I realize the world is not all about me. Unlike you guys, I have no desire to remake the world in my image and want everyone to be like me and to like what I like.

I'd like to cast a vote on the side of the homophobia in this thread being really awful. Now I'm afraid to reveal to anyone on the internet which hand I write with.

Hmm, sounds like one of Lorendiac's 'Motives for Becoming a Supervillain'. Ha-ha.

I’m sick to death of Gay characters being pushed down our throats!

*Bites tongue*

I thought this thread was about gay characters not pushing anything down anyone's throat.

Which hand you write with? You mean you're not ambidextrous like NORMAL people? No one wants to hear from you, freak. Go back to your one-handed ghetto.

The X-Men did just move to San Francisco, a very gay-friendly town, so there's a distinct possibility that Northstar might finally find a bit of happiness (if you'll pardon the pun).

That is, if any of the X-Writers decide to use him.

Is Northstar alive again?

To be fair, there's not a HUGE amount of heterosexual kissing going on in the big 2 either.

IanA : mentioning San Francisco reminded me of the irony of X-Force moving there, after dropping Rictor & Shatterstar and their blatant homosexual subtext.

Now wait a second....

WHY does he HAVE to be shown to be doing ANYTHING homosexual?

He can be gay without the stereotypical scenes being shown...

So he's gay? But that shouldn't define him...

Doesn't life go on in between the panels? Mayeb he's private and carrying on a relationship out of the prying eyes of the world, like Jodie Foster...

He could have a very active and kinky life marching in the Parades and whatever else, but it doesn't necessarily have to be shown...

We're on a mission to fight an evil menace and save the world, but wait..i have to stop and prove to a bunch of people that im gay and kiss a random man...let's just dress him up in a rainbow colored costume with a dog collar, give him a lisp, and have him skip everywhere instead of fly...mayeb give him some sort of 'flaming' powers instead...

So he's gay, why does he have to PROVE it to you? Just take him at his word and accept his lifestyle off panel...lol...

Not a huge amount, no, but just about every other issue of Astonishing or Uncanny opens with Scott & Emma in bed. IIRC, She Hulk has been to bed with Juggernaut in the last few years, she or Ms. Marvel were in bed with Iron Man, and a lot of other characters see a fair amount of action. And that's just Marvel. Batman is always sucking face with someone, even in Martian Manhunter's death scene!

I'm not saying I want to see more homosexual action in my books, but the Northstar situation is kind of embarassing. Has Ulimate Colossus done any better?

"I wonder if MCM, Avengers4ever, Circleoffire, and Menandwomenarenothesame are all the same person flooding this thread."

I bet you it's Chuck Dixon at it again, or Mike Miller...

Shoot, got bumped. To be clear, I was responding to Rhod.

Responding to todd young, I don't think the point is that he has to prove it, but it's been 15 years since he's come out and everyone is getting action but him. If no one else ever showed any sexual interest in anyone else in Marvel or DC comics, it would be one thing, but he's never even gotten or given a peck on the cheek by anyone but women. It's just kind of sad. He may as well be in the closet.

Northstar = Morrissey (if Morrissey is gay)

I see Northstar as a guy, who likes guys, maybe he was hurt in the past or maybe he's saving himself for the right guy. That aloof streak he has points to the sort of perfectionist who wants the right man, the one. He doesn't have to 'Psylocke' himself around, he's confident and knows the time will come.

I'm hoping Namor finally comes out, Namor/Northstar slash all round.

"I bet you it’s Chuck Dixon at it again, or Mike Miller…"

Are you serious?

I already knew Mike Miller was some kind of religious fanatic that usually posted gay-bashing under pseudonyms, but Chuck Dixon too?

I know he is conservative, but it's a disappointment to know he does this kind of stuff. I quite enjoyed Nightwing and Birds of Prey, and from his interviews, I got the idea that he wasn't wild about gays, but he didn't look like someone capable of posting this kind of stuff.

"He’s been gay since Alpha Flight #1 in 1983 (perhaps before that, but I doubt John Byrne gave much thought to his characterization prior to Alpha Flight getting their own title)."

Is that on the record?

I always thought that John Byrne's Northstar was just obnoxious with an unhealthy interest in his sister's sex life, but in the late 'eighties, someone told me that there had been a gay subtext, which had subsequently been dropped by Bill Mantlo. So I went back and re-read Byrne's run on the Alpha Flight and I was right, Northstar is obnoxious and has an unhealthy interest in his sister's sex life, but for the life of me, I can't see any gay subtext.

Unless being obnoxious and having an unhealthy interest in your sister's sex life is the gay subtext.

I thought the Colossus/Northstar relatiolnship was handled really well in UXMen, particularly Nightcrawler uncomfortableness and eventual acceptance...

I AM amazed that 616 Northstar has only ever kissed women!!

The best gay relationship so far in comics is still Apollo/midnighter in my opinion... doesn't the Authority count as Big 2? Or are we just counting Mainstream DC?

Bahahaha, I love the comments by the folks who said that the gay characters are just "being shoved down our throats" and are "everywhere these days." Yes, clearly this is the case. /sarcasm

Dude, I as a gay man have to put up with Emma Frost's existence in general.

The least that straight people can deal with is having Northstar hold another man's hand.

Nerds.

Why in the name of spam would anybody want to see two male characters kiss? Yech! The costumes make them look “faggy” enough without them resorting to outright faggotry.

"Faggotry"?

I don't care about Northstar being gay. I never did since he's been such a nothing of a character. Go create someone new and do it right from the beginning. Whatever happened to the gay kids in Young Avengers? (Does that book even come out anymore?)

Come out. Hee hee.

This is the way it should be: why do the writers have to write "gay" or artist have to draw "gay" at all? If you think their gay, fine, if not, fine. Leave it alone. It does not have to be written or drawn that way at all. Let the writers write and the artist draw the characters and if you personally think the character is gay, so be it, if you don't so be it. Let the writers and artist (especially the DC writers; terrible, just terrible), get back to making stories that mean something.

What, gay men don't like Emma Frost? How is she different from 'Will & Grace's Karen Walker? Except the hair-color.

Why do writers have to write straight? Why do artists have to draw straight?
You can't excise one part of sexuality completely out of a comic while freely depicting another. It's at best ignorant and at worst blatantly homophobic.

Someone commented that the only reason homosexuality is a big deal is because society makes it that way.
Why do humans care about anything? For the exact same reason. Would money matter if society didn't make a big deal out of it? Of course not. We still depict money, greed and finances in comic books don't we?

No one is suggesting that Marvel or DC creates the big gay comic book and calls attention to all of Northstar's makeout sessions. I think people are just genuinely interested as to why Northstar's sex life/love life isn't treated and portrayed the same way Cyclops's is or Wolverine's or hell even the Prowler's.

You know, there's a HUGE deal being made out of nothing here...

So there are a couple of gay characters in a couple of DC and Marvel's series.

Now go back and count ALL the straight heroes (and villians - only just throught of Pied Piper)

Bit of an imbalance there, now isn't there??

So.. Shoving them down your throats??? I can think of a grand total of eight - five Marvel and three DC

Oh, and I'm excluding Wildstorm/Vertigo and including lesbians...

The big deal is that all the characters I can think of (barring Batwoman and he Question) are pretty boring really...

I'm not saying any of the "Big Guns" (fnar-fnar) need to be outed...

I'm saying why can't a big name writer create a decent gay character??

Aren't there a few big name writers who could swing it with editorial by now? (visions of swinging editors are a bit nauseating really, sorry)

"Why do artists have to draw straight?"

Well, if the lines are all squiggly, it's hard to tell what's going on.

I supposed I asked for that by not using quotation marks.

I personally think Steve Rogers was gay and that Sharon Carter's baby is a figment of her overly fertile imagination. I also personally believe that Crossbones shot him over a lover's spat, not on the orders of the Red Skull. Oh I know I know things are depicted differently on panel, but I just prefer to make up my own goddamn stories and motives.

Northstar is like the token gay character on a TV show. He's just there to be gay, but none of the creators want him to actually BE gay.

Bernard:
John Byrne was referring to Northstar as "the queer" (referring to who was/wasn't going to die in AF #12) way back in the misty days of yore, and he's never been shy about saying that he intended Northstar to be gay from the get-go, as he felt it was something that hadn't been done before. So yeah, gay from day one.

Hey, Suzene, have you ever seen Byrne speak about WHEN he came up with the "Northstar is gay" idea?

I've always gotten the impression that he gave very little thought to their characterizations until he had to suddenly write a comic starring them, but I certainly could be wrong.

@MarkBlack

To paraphrase, Elsa Bloodstone in Nextwave, "That would actually be cool. And explain why there's always some guy dressed up as Captain America at Gay Pride parades."

The bigtory in these comments would be comedic in its irony if it wasn't so repugnant.

I hope you banned the guy who used the F-word, Brian.

Heh, heh, Still love Nextwave...

GIVE THEM ANOTHER SERIES!!!

NEXTWAVE SECRET INVASION - SKRULL-TASTIC!!

I reckon the "Cuddley-wuddley-teddy-bears-of-doom" were one of the highlights...

That and the cover with Aaron holdding a sign saying "Mark Millar Sucks Goats!" - They got away with bestiality, but gay kissing is a no-no??

Amen to the comments from Ryan and Blackjak; a handful of gay characters in all of mainstream comics is not pushing anything "down our throats", by any stretch.

Obviously some people have a problem with gay characters, and maybe with gay people in general: even one character is too much for them.

You know what? Buy something else. You've got enough choices.

Oh, and I got all caught up in the comments that I forgot the original reason I was going to comment: I brought Northstar buttons to Comic-Con last month: "Celebrating 16 Years of Celibacy — 1992-2008".

From Christopher Butcher's Flickr photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/comics212/2696478043/

Already planning next year's button, though I hope it won't be needed.

Brian:
You're going to make me go longbox diving and web surfing, aren't you? Off the top of my head, all I can remember about the Byrne comments on the AF characters prior to the ongoing are that some of them had been around since his fan days, but he might have been referring more to their designs than their characterization in that instance. I'll see if I can scratch up anything more specific.

@Ryan -

Dude, I as a gay man have to put up with Emma Frost’s existence in general

If I, as a straight man, have to put up with Emma Frost's existence, I don't see why you should get off scott-free. Stupid White Queen...

Actually, my best friend is gay and he always loved Emma Frost, but he'll tell you he prefers the Dark Phoenix-era White Queen over the current "Mrs. Scott Summers" version.

Hey. First time caller, long time listener.

Good stories in comics is great and all, but how good can a story really be if it doesn't reflect our society in some way?

Sexuality is a pretty big deal in society in therefore can be relevant in stories. And I personally don't want my preferred media to be just stories about guys in spandex beating each other up. I like it when the stories actually have a point to them and if the point is best conveyed by the writer by making the guys in spandex make sweet sweet man love, then so be it. Then itøs really besides the point if I want to witness it or not, at least there's another story with a point on the shelves for whoever it may concern.

Directing my answer to B. Rolsted.
Sexuality has become so much of the comic world today that most writers have forgotten how to write good hero stories. Have you forgotten what heroes are? In my years of reading and collecting comics, I would have never thought it would become fashionable to be a drunk, whore, drug addict, queer, or morally degenerate person. This is what many "heroes" of today's comics are. Comic heroes are supposed to be against evil; not perpetuating it. If you looked at it from the super heroes world, would the average person look up to people of this ilk? I don't think so.
With so many bad things going on in Hollywood and the sports world (drugs, sex, perversion, steroids, etc), why drag comics down with it? Can't the writers remember how to write meaningful "classic" stories anymore? I sure hope they can. If this is any indication of where comics are headed, DC, Marvel, Image and the rest are going to continue losing readers and money!

That's a joke right?

@Karen C

Oh no you didn't!

Wait, comic heroes are supposed to be, well, anything in particular? Why? Why should they be one thing over and against another?

The great thing about media of expression is that an author can communicate whatever idea comes to mind. There are no particular rules (beyond the changing grammar of the media form) to govern what or how an author communicates. In fact, it's only as a media form begins to distance itself from the hegemonies that bound it (in our hypothetical case here, the idea that comic heroes are supposed to fit a given structure) that it becomes a valuable tool for communication.

Let me get this straight:

Karen C
August 19, 2008 at 3:05 pm

With so many bad things going on in Hollywood and the sports world (drugs, sex, perversion, steroids, etc), why drag comics down with it?

So, sex is a bad thing? Is it ok to comics depict murder, genocide, robbery and all kinds of crime... But to have two characters who happen to be of the same gender in relationship, that would be wrong?

In his entire published history, we’ve seen him kiss another character ONCE.

That character?

ROGUE!

How silly is this?

Hey, if there's any woman in the Marvel Universe who could make a gay man weak in the knees by kissing him, it's Rogue.

Wow... I'm not really "for" or "against" gays, but Karen C's comment made me cringe.

I seriously suggest that anyone bothered by homosexuality in comics should under no circumstances ever watch OZ.

Superpowers? Rich? Built? I still think Northstar is hot.

"John Byrne was referring to Northstar as “the queer” (referring to who was/wasn’t going to die in AF #12) way back in the misty days of yore,"

So Byrne decides Northstar's gay and then writes him in an overwhelmingly negative way - bashing Storm from behind, accusing his sister of sleeping with Deadly Ernest, etc, etc. That surely can't be a coincidence, can it?

And can I assume that when Chris Claremont wrote the X-Men/Alpha Flight and had Rogue and Northstar canoodling, he knew full well that Byrne intended the character to be gay. Payback for Jean Grey's resurrection?

I remember seeing a few interviews that Prisoners of Gravity (I think only us Canucks will recall that show) with Byrnes with how he explained that he always had envisioned Northstar as being gay, but that it would have very little resonance in the comic as he was trying to focus on other subjects and stories.

Apparentally he had always planned on outing Northstar in a more public manner, but he never got the chance because he was removed from the Alpha Flight title (I might be a bit wrong on that one, I am just trying to remember the whole episode, Gays in Sci/Fi Fantasy and Comics, and the Prisoners of Gravity episode aired like in 92/93, I was barely ten, so the memory might be a bit off).

Anyhoooo as to having some sort of visual realization of homosexual relationships in comics I'm all for it, but I've seen way to many poor examples of going about it.

To me it doesn't matter that its a total side character, its just mainly in certain titles even if their "gayness" isn't a main issue it should be potrayed atleast somewhat, because it is in character for those characters.

Right now all I'm riding on is Vertigo titles and maybe young Avengers

I've been happy to see that Hulkling and Wiccan are shown as a couple in more then a few shots, nothign gaudy, just nice reminding shots that gay heroes are around, and just like everyone else on the team.

Oh, Northstar is only 'built' because most comic artists can draw figures only one way. A more skilled artist would probably draw him with a slender elvish anatomy to match those pointy ears. Simmer down.

Sorry. Showing homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle in a mainstream comic is the same as portraying drug use as acceptable or being a violent criminal as being OK. Let's not forget that comics are ostensibly written for children. Do you want children believing that homosexuality is acceptable?

By the way, I am not posting under multiple names. I can't speak for anyone else.

Homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle, in many countries, including my own.

Some people don't like it, same with gay marriage, but just about everyone has come ot accept that its part of the human condition, despite whatever beliefs they have that say its not.

And comics stop being printed for children a long long time ago.

As I work in a comic store I can tell you that next to no customers in the store I work at, nor in the others in town are children.

We maintain a section that has childrens comics, and stories and series written with a younger reader in mind.

But 80% of the comics on the market right now are intended for and labelled for teens and older.

Sorry. Showing homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle in a mainstream comic is the same as portraying drug use as acceptable or being a violent criminal as being OK. Let’s not forget that cimics are ostensibly written for children. Do you want children believing that homosexuality is acceptable?

So, showing someone getting raped shouldn't be in a mainstream comic book? Because that's been shown in mainstream comics more often than Northstar has been shown caring for someone of the same sex.

Bernard:

I really liked Northstar as the team pill and the issues between him, Aurora, and Sasquatch were pure soap opera. One of the little touches I enjoyed about early AF was Byrne giving the twins the same taste in men. Even for all that he was written as an ass, he had his good points, chief among them being that he would drop everything and come running if his sister needed him.

I'd be willing to bet that Claremont knew about Northstar being gay. Even aside from the interaction between Northstar and Rogue, Claremont continued with the "OMG, Northstar's hanging out with a WOMAN?!" thing that popped up once or twice in Alpha Flight. 'Cuz, you know, being gay is less about being attracted to men and more about thinking girls are icky.

gaymergeek: Neat. I'd never heard about Byrne having plans to out Northstar. I wouldn't have thought that he could with Shooter being EIC and all.

I'm pretty sure Bryne's was talking about that during that interview on Prisoners of Gravity (man I miss that show, such a good program). Maybe someone on the forums can find something webcached with it.

Who knows, I'm so computer illiterate.

The only other stuff I ever read with Northstar concerning his gayness was during the Uncanny X Men run (#414 was the first I think).

It was his unrequited attraction to Bobby Drake. anyways, think I'm going off on a tangent.

"Do you want children believing that homosexuality is acceptable?"

Um....yes. Do you honestly believe that in this day and age most people don't want their children to believe that?

"So, showing someone getting raped shouldn’t be in a mainstream comic book? Because that’s been shown in mainstream comics more often than Northstar has been shown caring for someone of the same sex."

Nope. Not if it's portrayed as an acceptable action. Rape is a violent crime.

gaymergeek: I didn't mean that to sound like skepticism, I was just a little surprised. I want to see that episode now. Found reference to the show, but You Tube is failing me, alas.

So, homosexuality is the same as doing drugs and violent crime?

Why?

And who gets to make this decisions on morality?

You, MCM?

You, Karen B?

Are you the arbiters of what is moral? Who the f... apointed you? And you get to make this choice for me? Or for children that aren't related to you?

Or is it the Bible that makes the distinctions? Or the law books? They have laws against drugs and robbery, but I don't think most states in the US has laws against homosexuality.

Are you guys Iranians?

Who is trying to cram their viewpoints down everybody's throats here?

Furthermore, I ask this:

Violent crime obviously hurts people. Drug use damages one's health.

But I've been gay my entire life and it didn't hurt anyone, and I'm in excellent health too, thank you.

So, what is this equivalence between violence, drugs, and homosexuality?

Yay! I was just thinking this blog needed more morally stunted religious assholes with minimal reasoning skills posting in the comments section! Bigotry is super fun!

'So, homosexuality is the same as doing drugs and violent crime? '

To the extent that it is deviant and immoral, yeah. I have no problem with whatever consenting adults do with one another. But in an artform that is created primarily for young people I have huge problem with homosexuality being depicted as normal or acceptable. In 'adults only' comics' you may deal with any subject you like. Adults have, presumably', the intellectual capacity to deal with the presented subject matter. I'd certainly hate to hear that a person indulged in homosexual behavior because of a comic book they read when they were 10.

Why is it immoral?

Who made the decision that it's immoral?

You?

The Bible?

Who gets to make this decision?

Come on, Rene, the poster is arguing homosexuality is "deviant and immoral." There's really no point in discussing it.

Apologies, MCM, I missed part of your post and argued against something you didn't argue for. I'm sorry.

How would you prefer homosexuals portrayed in mainstream comics? In the closet, dying of aids, or just burning in Hell?

While we're at it, let's distinguish between "mainstream" comics and kids comics. Kids comics are not mainstream. They're a niche market now. Mainstream books appear to be aimed at kids old enough to handle content that would, in a movie, easily garner an R rating. I'll admit showing that it's ok to be gay probably isn't suitable for a mainstream Christian comic, but in a secular setting, showing a couple dudes holding hands isn't going to bring about the end of civilization. That doesn't even approach the things they show lesbians doing in mainstream books.

I’d certainly hate to hear that a person indulged in homosexual behavior because of a comic book they read when they were 10.

I know kids jump off things to act like Superman, or fight. That's usually when they learn the difference between fantasy and reality. We're not talking about the kind of behaviour you find in Class Comics. We're talking about characters who have been gay for 15 years and haven't been shown in a loving committed relationship with anyone but their sister. That sounds deviant.

Whoa, there, MCM. First, comics haven't been read primarily by young people for a long time. Second, I think you're drawing some highly spurious causal links between material that we read and the actions that we take.

By the way, what do you read that avoids all of this adult topic matter? I don't know that I've read a comic in the last 5 years that didn't deal with sexuality in some way, contain violence or deal with drug use of some sort. Hell, i don't know if I've read a book that avoided all those things--non-fiction excluded, of course. People write about what they experience, and all of these are part of the human condition.

And one last question, just to get the boards even more riled up: ever read Morrison comics? Am curious if comics inspired by psychedelics are as bad as comics that say psychedelics are ok. Couldn't resist given the debates about Morrison that abound...

Brian, the point is, I'm genuinely curious to know from where these guys get all their moral certainty.

I actually have more respect for people who have the guts to come out and say: "Homosexuality is immoral because it's against God and I believe in God."

Or: "Homosexuality is immoral because I say so, and I'm equipped to make this morality decision for everyone else, including kids that were fathered by other people and have no relation to me."

Come on guys. Come out of the closet (hehe) and announce yourselves as either religious persons or authoritarian ones (or both).

In the comics we all love, it's guys like Doctor Doom and Darkseid that feel so certain of their own greatness that they feel qualified to make decisions for their subjects.

So I wonder why MCM thinks he is qualified to say how my child should be raised, or how the child of a friend of mine should be raised.

"Brian, the point is, I’m genuinely curious to know from where these guys get all their moral certainty."

Satan! Duh.

I am an atheist; I hate religion in all forms and believe the bible, Koran, the sacred scrolls, whatever, are myths. I also hate homosexuality in all forms. I believe that women and men have evolved to this point not to go against nature but to further our race as being one. Where would we be if only males or females had evolved? The human race wouldn't have lasted very long.
As far as choice, you have your choice and I have mine. If you choose to condone homosexuality, then I believe you are wrong. I won't buy comics that have homosexual material included in them. I hope the human race never comes down to condoning things that go against the natural order.

Holy shit, is this, like, performance art or something?

Religious or totalitarian, if he thinks a comic book can make a kid homosexual, he's just an ass.

Well, not to be rude, but nature is full of homosexual activities.

almost every kind of mammal has been recorded practicing things that we consider homosexual, gay, lesbian, etc.

In nature homosexuality is well documented, and to be honest scientifically proven as something that is.

Animals that engage in malexmale or femalexfemale couplings never seem to have a problem with other members of their own species ragging on them or beating them down.

I wonder why ours does.

Does that mean you're against cancer treatment since that prolongs lives, thus going against natural order?

I'm not telling anyone what they should teach their children. I am merely expressing my opinion on this particular topic. I don't think homosexuality is a topic suitable for an artform which has a significant youth following. Sexuality is a complicated subject. I didn't like the scenes in the 'Iron Man' movie which displayed Tony Stark's (decidedly hetero) promiscuity. Don't tell me that that movie wasn't marketed with children in mind. Superman is a deadbeat dad. What kind of message is that for kids? Comic books and comic book characters are attractive to children and always have been. There should be some consideration for what is being presented to them.
I wonder how many of you would, if you discovered your child was gay while in uetero, avail youselves of a 'cure' if such a thing was available.

"I wonder how many of you would, if you discovered your child was gay while in uetero, avail youselves of a ‘cure’ if such a thing was available."

None of us? Because I think that's the answer.

Oh, I'm also an atheist! But I don't hate gays!

It's not so much homosexuality that doesn't belong in superhero comics as much as sexuality period.

These are stories about guys and gals in garish costumes with silly names like Wolverine and Deadpool who fly around with beams shooting out of thier arses. Face it, these stories should be for kids. They may be enjoyed by some adults on a limited level but they sure as hell shouldn't be written for them. Batman should be a book that can be read to a five year old, not " The Goddamn Batman!" banging Black Canary on a roof top. That crap is retarded. Feel free to disagree, but know that You are the reason this medium is dying. All the coke swilling, basement dwelling fanboy retards, who insist that superheroes must keep pushing the envelope to keep them engaged in something they should have grown out of decades before. There's no new blood coming in, and as the aging fan base dies off, the readership goes with it.

All these pretentious hack writers should piss off and leave the superheroes to the kids. In Japan they have loads of comics about things other than superheroes and many contain Adult material and mature subjects and that's cool. Why is it that rather than someone creating a comic about a teen girl dealing with the moral implications of having an abortion, We instead get crap like Superman and Wonder Woman hitting each other over the head with cars while arguing about Batgirls right to have one? Time to grow the hell up and move on.

Oh, and as far as gay characters in comics, they pretty much exist only as an exploitive marketing ploy. That's why the big Northstar "I'm gay!" issue came and went with little in the way of follow up. The big two don't really want a bunch of gay characters running around in thier books, but if it gets mentioned on the nightly news and results in some sales .....

@Avengers4ever

So you're against all sex that doesn't lead to the fertilization of an egg? Condoms and birth control? You're against monogamy/celibacy? I mean, I know it's your life, but that philosophy is totally ridiculous!

"I wonder how many of you would, if you discovered your child was gay while in uetero, avail youselves of a ‘cure’ if such a thing was available."

Why have you put cure in inverted commas? Creepy.

To answer an earlier post (by the way it's Karen C, not Karen B), here is my religious claim:

What the Bible says about homosexuals.

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 10
6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

6:10
nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Re: The original topic of the post -- This is somewhat surprising, but not totally unexpected, especially since he came out so late into Alpha Flight's run and hasn't appeared much since outside of Austin's run (which I followed... infrequently).

I am surprised at how quickly the homophobia and slurs started here though. And the arguments made are ridiculous -- Circleoffire claiming that gay characters are being "pushed down (our) throats" when the point of the post is the fact that Northstar hasn't even been so much as kissed by another man in all his appearances over the last thirty years. And MCM, using an utterly unacceptable word to further your argument isn't probably going to get people to come around to your way of thinking.

Frankly I'm surprised that people who don't want to see homosexuality represented in comics would even want to harp on it when all it does is fan the flames of discourse (such as it is). You don't like it? That's your opinion. But phrase your opposition in a way that respects people that might disagree with you or are themselves gay. I'm heterosexual, but I find some of the responses disgusting.

But anyway... what's Northstar's status quo at the moment? I recall him showing up in Carey's X-Men a while back, but has he shown up since? Seems a shame he's not appearing regularly in an X-title because of the material they could get from the character having been killed and brought back to life, and being a surviving member of the original Alpha Flight.

Have a good day,
John Cage

“I wonder how many of you would, if you discovered your child was gay while in uetero, avail youselves of a ‘cure’ if such a thing was available.”

None of us? Because I think that’s the answer.

Yeah. Right. Everybody is a liberal until they have to face the issues themselves. You'd be injecting your kid with "Anti-Gay" juice at the first opportunity.

Does that mean you’re against cancer treatment since that prolongs lives, thus going against natural order?

Man made the buildings that reach for the sky
And man made the motorcar and learned how to fly
But he didn't make the flowers and he didn't make the trees
And he didn't make you and he didn't make me
And he got no right to turn us into machines
He's got no right at all
'Cause we are all God's children
And he got no right to change us
Oh, we gotta go back the way the good lord made us all

Don't want this world to change me
I wanna go back the way the good lord made me
Same lungs that he gave me to breath with
Same eyes he gave me to see with

One of the weirdest Kinks songs ever.

Karen C:

Presumably your also against the depiction of people eating shellfish in comics for the same rationale (Lev 11:10)

No, MCM, whether you choose to believe me or not I wouldn't. And I think your assumption that we all would says just as much about your values as does your position on other issues.

BTW, Brian, which album is that one from?

So, wait. We're nerds who live in our parents' basements AND WE'RE COKEHEADS?

I might be a nerd and a cokehead, but I don't live in MY parents' basement.

Dan, it's off the soundtrack to the extremely (thankfully) forgettable British comedy, Percy.

Prepare yourself for some inanity - here's the plot - the film was about the first ever penis transplant, and this guy gets a large penis from a womanizer, so women keep recognizing it and it causes hilarious hijinx for the fellow who is given the penis.

The Kinks did the whole soundtrack - that song, "God's Children," besides its absurd premise, is actually a really good song (and so is another song off the album, "Dreams"). The rest of the album is quite forgettable, though.

If we're living in basements aren't we more likely to be pot-heads?

Ha! Now I know why I haven't heard it. Thanks, Brian.

I'm glad there are people reading this blog who can educate us on the proper and natural order of things so we can better ourselves as people and a species. If only Grant Morrison could write a comic book for the rest of the malcontent CSB readers, maybe they'd finally understand.

As for Bible references, I'm not a fan of doing that. I really hate how they stuff the disciple characters down your throat.

I wish I could get my cokehead parents out of my basement.

Swilling. As in drinking to excess, not snorting. You'd have to be as rich as Tony Stark to afford a coke habit and buy comics as well.

Well, allegedly we're liberals, so we must be doing just ALL KINDS of drugs.

Ha. After reading all these comments, I almost forgot that the blog ISN'T about whether gays should be in comics, but the fact that, despite proclaiming to be gay, Northstar has only kissed women.Which I think any rational person would agree IS pretty silly.

Oh Northstar, you hetero you. It's time to drop the act. This whole "gay" thing is just a clever ploy to get women to drop their guard around you!

Said it before, I'll say it again: http://www.sequentialtart.com/archive/sept05/rdm_0905.shtml

Wow. Some of these outrageously bigoted comments make me ashamed to share a hobby with you people.

Oh, I personally am a Mountain-Dew SWILLER.

You know what, I take that back. I'm ashamed to share a SPECIES with some of the posters here.

So. Here's what I LOVE about people who talk about homosexuality and quote Leviticus. I don't keep a Bible in the house, but IIRC, two verses after talking about the immorality of homosexuality, it goes into the immorality of beards. Which is awesome, seeing as how every depiction I've seen of Old Testament biblical figures has them sporting beards. In any event, the thing that most Christians tend to forget is that Jesus (remember, he put the Christ in Christian) never made any disparaging remarks towards homosexuals. In fact, Jesus seemed to favor the underdog, and liked to talk about how it's not good to judge people. Also, IIRC, the Old Testament is pretty much overwritten by the New Testament. That's the big separation between the Christians and the Jews. Now, my theology might be a little off, but if we go by this logic, shouldn't it be the Jews constantly attacking homosexuals? For some reason, though, it's usually not. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many Jewish people are somewhat sympathetic when it comes to being persecuted just because of who you are? Hmmm...

In any event, taking this back to a comics thing, I think that showing a character in a relationship helps to define said character when it's done correctly. I know that my wife defines me. People in real life act differently in a relationship, and most relationships change who you are and how you look at the world, even if it's in the smallest way. That being said, I would love to see Northstar in a relationship, provided it was done tastefully and not just for shock value.

Brian, kudos on trying to absurd up this abomination of a comments thread.

It's either be absurd or cry sometimes.

That was a great post h3yd.

So Michael,

You think a comic with Power man and Spider-Woman having anal sex is ok? They're named Power man and Spider Woman for christ sakes! They fight robots and Mole men, and wear silly costumes! I mean really! pull your head out of your ass long enough to see this stuff for what it truly is! Modern superhero comics may not be for kids, but they should be. The superhero genre doesn't need to be anything beyond what it is, childish power fantasies and morality plays.
There are plenty of other venues available for sex, drugs, ultra violence, swearing and adult themes. Novels, films, tv shows, even other comic books! There's a whole world outside the superhero genre for you to enjoy! So, put down your action figures, have a shower, go outside and get some sun, talk to a girl, (or a boy), read a book without pictures, do anything you want but for the love of god, grow the hell up. Leave kids stuff for the kids.

Morecowbell - Okay, that is far, you're against ANY sexuality in superhero comics, period. I don't agree with you, but I can't say that you're wrong.

Karen C. - It is great that you believe in the Bible. I respect your viewpoint and support your right to conduct YOUR life according to your chosen Holy Book's dictates. I don't believe in the Bible and I ask people to respect MY viewpoint and support my right to conduct MY life according to my own dictates. And every person out there have their right to choose.

Avengers4ever - Tell me, if you believe men and women should always follow evolutionary imperatives and "natural order", do you also believe that males should impregnate as many females as they can? After all, human males are conditioned by evolution to have as many offspring as they can. If you're against homosexuality because it doesn't lead to procreation, are you also against monogamy? Why impose any "artificial" constraints (like marriage) in the way of procreation and evolution?

Jessica Jones isn't Spider-Woman. She's Jewel.

And Alias was a Max comic, so, yeah, I don't give too much of a damn.

Jewel, Knightress, whatever. I don't read the crap Bendis tries to pawn off as writing so I'm not as up on this junk as you are, but Max comic or not, it's still wrong, and if you can't see that, you are indeed a sad case.

For the record, Manhunter features two gay men in a loving relationship who kiss onpanel. So far, it's not when Obsidian's been in costume, but he's still got his boyfriend and has been seen treating him like one.

Unlike in JSA.

So, MCM, you'd be injecting your kid with some artificial juice to alter his behaviour into something more acceptable? Is that what you're saying? Are you going to stop at homosexuality? What if they come up with something to test criminal tendencies in utero? Or a tendency to alcoholism? Why stop there? Let's make a juice to turn kids into the image YOU think is perfect. Wouldn't that be great?

And may I introduce you to your fellow anti-gay person, Avengers4ever, that holds that NOTHING should deviate people from "natural order"? But perhaps you both agree that some "juice" that nudges natural order in the "right" way is a good thing.

What scares me about you, Karen C, MCM, and the rest of the gang is that you people feel like you have the right to make decisions for others, because you're so certain of yourselves. You want to make decisions for other parents and their kids, since you think some publishers should avoid certain material, period, instead of letting every parent worry about their own kids and what to show or not to show them.

The last Gay Parade here in São Paulo had a considerable number of straight people that came to watch the show, and many of them brought their kids with them. Yes, the horror! But I'd say those parents have the same rights to teach their kids to be tolerant of homosexuals as you guys have the right to teach your kids to believe whatever you want.

Where does it comes from, this desire to make decisions for other people? I don't know. But I know where it leads: tyranny, with the best of intentions, of course.

Well, at least Ultimate Northstar is getting some action.

By the way, I've read your article, Michael. It was great.

You may be a "sad case" according to Morecowbell, but I think I'd still prefer you as a neighbour than him.

Karen C: What the Bible says about homosexuals...

Leviticus says a lot of funny things, about gay folks, shellfish, textiles, and hey wow, women too:

Leviticus 12:1-8:
The Lord said to Moses,
"Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period... Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Because women are, as we all know, twice as yucky as men. For verily, if thy cooties cause thee to offend...

You are fully entitled to your beliefs and your interpretation of its edicts, but please don't think that whatever excerpts you cherrypick are objective truths that all people are subject to.

the first ever penis transplant, and this guy gets a large penis from a womanizer, so women keep recognizing it and it causes hilarious hijinx for the fellow who is given the penis.

That was actually partially inspired by my life, although they left out the part where my hand rejected it.
*Rimshot*

...I apologize in advance, but I can't believe no one has said this, unless I missed it somewhere in the thread..

Please remember, if you don't want gay characters shoved down your throats, that's your choice. You do have the alternative entrance.
Um unless you're a chick then you have the other two.
And I've already probably said way too much.

On the other hand...
As a Christian I don't put a lot of Old Testament emphasis in my life, other than the Ten Commandments and watching out for Ezekial's prophecies, etc.
So what did Jesus say specifically about homosexuals and lesbians?
All I remember that seems relevant is the judge not lest ye be judged.

In general I am pretty grossed out by the over-sexualization of comics (along with music, TV, advertising, elementary school fashion etc etc etc), but wouldn't be overly offended by one lousy same sex kiss. Just give Northstar an interesting partner, be creative, be daring.
Say, the Abomination?
Oh, wait, again I say too much

Skip the Abomination, yo. Want a real 'flamer' as Northstar's boyfriend? Ghost Rider! Leather and chains, you know.

The oddest thing is, Walid, is that this is COUNTING Ultimate Northstar.

While Northstar is shown to be in a relationship with Colossus in Ultimate X-Men, they're never shown actually kissing.

Dang. At least this Northstar is having some fun off-panel then. i don't recall the 616 Northstar ever having a BF.

Btw, based on what someone else wrote about Northstar...an obnoxious, super-fast mutant who only cares about his sister, to the point of obsession? Isn't he basically a richer, gay, Canadian version of Quicksilver?

I'm completely against the presence of faggots in comics.

(A faggot being either a kind of meatball made from pig offal or a bundle of sticks bound together)

So, yes. No bound sticks or offal meatballs in my comics, thank you.

OK, what have we learned so far?

Homosexuality isn't natural. (Yes it is. It's a lot more natural than say, houses, comic books or the internet)

The bible says homosexuality is wrong (Along with interesting statements on shellfish, beards, textiles and periods)

Sexuality has no place in comics (Bye bye Lois. Seeya, MJ. Off you go, Jonathan and Martha. Good job Uncle Ben is already gone. Thomas and Martha too.)

Children shouldn't be led to think that homosexuality is acceptable (Because then they might not grow up filled with hatred for their fellow man, and then who would they hate?)

Sex is for making babies, nothing else. (No, it's a physical act of love. That's why it's called lovemaking)

wwk5d:
I'd think not, considering that he appears to have been pretty soundly 'fridged in the latest Ult. X-Men story.

Wow. Peter really has been the kiss of death lately, hasn't he?

*snerk*

Well, it was just a matter of time, really. Everyone Peter loves winds up dead, and every version of Northstar winds up dead (even if the 616 edition did eventually walk it off). We're lucky that crossing those two wires didn't cause both universes to implode into some kind of angst singularity.

Yeah, I consider myself a Christian, and I can;'t believe that anyone else that seriously thinks they're a Christian could be against gays or lesbians. Or anyone, for that matter. As someone else already mentioned, Jesus was pretty big on championing the outcasts and the underdogs. And the scant biblical "evidence" against homosexuality also says things like shellfish are evil, and selling your children into slavery is acceptable. And if it's against nature, then why does my male dog hump other male dogs? He must be pushing a liberal, homosexual agenda.

Personally, I agree with Fourthwolder in that I think mainstream comics are over-sexualized in general. Lord knows I could have done without that scene in the Avengers a few years back showing a shrunken down Hank Pym covered in fluid crawling up onto the Wasp.

Wait... Northstar is GAY?

Who knew?

I haven't read through all of this, but I want to point out a few misconceptions about the verses people are referring to:

1) The Torah (Old Testament, to some) does not "outlaw" homosexuality. In fact, the Torah doesn't outlaw any sort of desire... even the commandment of "though shalt not covet" refers to taking actions. As such, the Torah does not outlaw it.

2) The verse specifically refers to Jews. It's part of a list of sex acts that are non-permissible mainly because they don't result in offspring or viable offspring. These laws are only applicable to Jews, and in fact when the Rambam discusses the 7 Noahide Laws (the laws the Torah says applies to Gentiles), he does not list "laying with a man as one would with a woman" as a sexually immoral act (he does list rape and incest). So if you're talking about non-Jews and trying to apply Leviticus, you're applying a source that doesn't apply.

3) Even if you are talking about Jews, you're wrong. The term commonly translated as "abomination" is "Toeyvah" and it does not mean anything of the sort. It means a private sin - one between man and G-d. As someone noted, another Toeyvah would be shellfish, and one that occurs more commonly would be cheating in business (a specific form, and I forget which. I believe it's an "even if you don't get caught" clause). Never hear that bit quoted, do ya? And again, it refers to the actual act, not the orientation. Also, it's one of thousands of sins. It's no more "evil" than any other, except what are considered the big three - Murder, Idol Worship, and Sexual Immorality (which again, according to the Rambam and others, does not include male-male sex acts, just non-consensual ones and incest). Someone who is Jewish and has male-male sex is no worse a sinner than someone who mixes wool and linen in the same garment. The difference would be that as a Toeyvah, it's not supposed to be any of anyone else's business.

So basically, there's no basis in the book of my people for any sort of bigotry against homosexuality, and while I can't speak for all my people, I'd really like it if everyone would stop citing it as an excuse to hate.

----

On a more topical note, I do think it's silly to have the only person a gay character has kissed be a woman. It's amusing.

Finally, super hero comics always have and probably always will take a childish view of relationships, let alone sexuality. We're talking about a medium where Clark Kent would freak out because suddenly, Lana wanted to kiss him or where Wonder Woman couldn't marry Steve Trevor because then she'd have to give up crime fighting and become a housewife. In a lot of ways, I don't feel we've matured past that as a medium. So to with homosexuality. We get a very cursory view of it. It's used for titillation if the characters are lesbians (52, anyone) or as another reason for our hero to be ostracized. There are exceptions (Young Avengers), but for the most part, homosexual relationships are no more "realistic" in super hero comics than heterosexual ones.

I'm so glad we have far fewer ignorant religious fanatics in the UK...

I am against religious fanatics of any belief, be they Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Ba'hai, Sikh or Buddhist...

(Although fanatical Buddhists can be fun!)

These people are just Christian fanatics who probably believe the world is only 8000 years old and dinosaurs were put here to test our faith...

Personally I hate anyone who quotes the Bible as truth... the four gospels incorporated into the New Testament are NOT the word of God or Jesus. Rather they are the editted, "Approved" gospels that the majority of bishops (an idea in itself frowned upon by Jesus, who was against organised religion) pushed forwards, against the other gospels... Two of these gospels originated about 100years after the crucifixion from followers of one of the disciples... Not the actual disciple..

And considering the first Pope (who allegedly wrote all those letters) was previously a Tax Collector until "he saw the light" (In my opinion he saw money...) I have serious problems listening to most biblical quotes...

Before you attack me further, I was raised a Christian. I am now a Muslim. My mother is what they call a "lay preacher" and we regularly discuss theology. I have read the Bible, the Qu'ran, and am now reading the Gospel of Judas... Mary Magdalene is next, along with the rest of the suppressed Nag Hammadi scrolls...

Be Christian by all means, but do it properly. Show compassion, understanding, respect and love for your fellow human beings. Not hatred.

The phrase is "Jesus loves you", not "Jesus hates you".

And to the Atheist who thinks homosexuality is against nature...

Hoo-boy! You are one messed-up individual... It is nature driving the homosexuality... It is a genetic/hormonal thing. You do not choose to be gay. Sure you can stop people being gay through aversion therapy or electro-shock therapy (as the Scientologists are alleged to do) but that's like the Muslim fanatics in Iraq who are telling farmers to cover the genitalia of their cattle to prevent innocent men being aroused by the exposed sex organs... INSANE!

Let nature run its course. The world is overpopulated as is.. Less people reproducing the better!

Sadly, you will all eitehr disagree with me, or not realise that this is directed to you... So this hasn't changed anything...

I am now simply going to ignore ALL the homophobes, no matter what they are saying...

For the record? I am straight, mid-thirties, male, married, with two kids.

To the people that asked if we would give the "anti-gay" serum to our children in utero, the only reason I would do such a thing is so that they wouldn't have to deal with bible thumpers like yourselves telling them their an abomination.

Thanks for the quick contextual education Typo. I was gathering together something similar, but was happy to see that another member of The Tribe had the wherewithal to provide some supplemental info to something I was worried would become more and more misunderstood as the conversation dragged on, and not only by the bigots.

Karen, MCM, Cowbell, might I suggest that you and whomever in your life you want to "protect " from the Evil Hordes of Gayness take a more thorough look around the comic shop? Currently I count quite a few different ways you can enjoy your superheros sans "sin". Marvel has a "Marvel Adventures" line covering most of their big guns (no pun intended) that not only steps up with some pure, unadulterated smashy-smashy, but allows new readers to dispense with the annoyance of trying to sift through 50 some odd years of continuity. Same with "Mary Jane loves Spider Man". DC also offers a few titles where its pure superhero action and little in the way of sexual themes (ironically, Morrison's All Star Superman immediately springs to mind- a beautiful little throwback to the days of yore when just about anything could happen in a Superman comic- you know, except sodomy). So now we've established that there's a little something for everyone, with no need to blanket the world in your myopic POV.

Of course, some of us basement dwellers, having grown up, do like our comics to reflect that growing up, and we want a little more character development and pathos for our buck, that bring more of the issues we see in the world to the forefront. Its been done sloppily, its been done well, but the main contingent of buyers is our age group, 28-40, and we want what we want. Personally, I don't care what the subject matter is, as long as a good story is in evidence.

On a more pure comic book discussion, I always thought the best Northstar story was Alpha Flight #6-7 - the Deadly Ernest story arc, where Byrne handles Northstar's sexuality quite brilliantly (even a tad subversively) given the restrictive climate at the time- alluding to how a friend helped him with his identity, but never actually spelling it out. Its all right there, but cleverly veiled so that no one could find anything objectionable enough to not print the story, yet the subtext is quite specific as to Northstar's proclivities.

Is the story weaker for Northstar not making out with another guy? No, because that would not fit contextually with the issues being dealt with in the storyline- point is, Byrne gives Jean Paul some depth of character while never slowing the tale down with step by step bullet points. Its quite ingenious, and a very enjoyable read (what ever you may think of the current incarnation of John Byrne the person, its irrelevant to the good work done here).

I don't think subsequent writers were shorting Northstar's character development either- The kiss with Rogue, the Purple Girl's unrequited crush on Northstar? Well, all that was about the two women's needs (and not a little cluenessness on their parts), not about Northstar, and you can see in the context that there's no interest on his part other than giving Rogue some much needed contact (he's not a monster after all), and uncomfortably explaining to the Purple Girl that he's not interested, though he keeps his reasons close to the vest. Should he have a few genuine romantic moments of his own? Sure. But that has to me more than a sensationalized "money shot"- a good writer would blend it into the story being told, and it wouldn't be any big fuss.

@morecowbell2001

I think you're kind of going off on a tangent. No one is advocating more SEX to be in corporate superhero comics. Power Man SHOULD NOT being having anal sex with Spider-woman in a comic book, ever. But what people fail to understand is showing gay males (or females) in a loving relationship does not mean you'd see them screwing.

You can deal with homosexual characters in a medium for kids without discussing sex, just like how Cyclops and Jean Grey can have a relationship without ever discussing sex (uh... pre-Emma psychic affair). You'd focus on how the characters interact with one another or how they can be hurt emotionally by one another, you'd show them being a couple. And yes, you can show them kissing.

Kids don't see kissing as something sexual. Kids who haven't been exposed to gay men would probably think two men or women kissing would be silly and be done with it. They wouldn't jump to the conclusion, "Ohmigosh these two are totally blowing eachother." It's cool if you'd rather not see gay people in comics, but enough "think of the kids," that argument is never about "the kids."

"Well, not to be rude, but nature is full of homosexual activities.

almost every kind of mammal has been recorded practicing things that we consider homosexual, gay, lesbian, etc.

In nature homosexuality is well documented, and to be honest scientifically proven as something that is."

And you don't really need documentation. All you really need is to have ever had a dog.

**never gets the "it's not of nature" argument. Are you blind?**

And back to something Blakjack said, indeed, lest we forget what an immature view we have of all relationships, hetero or otherwise in comics, look at what happened to Marvel's golden goose when too many writers got frightened of writting a happily married character? They actually turned to the Debbil for help. The gorram Debbil. What does the bible say about that? Idiocy, thy name is Marvel.

There. We've gotten the snark in, the lunatic comments, the logical contingent and now we've satisfied our OMD/BND bitching quota. Lady and gentlemen, I give you a complete forum thread.

Hooray!

Excellent point, Marc.
Their flagship character makes a deal with the devil to violate his marriage, but a tertiary character can't have one little gay kiss.
And I can't begin to count how many times I've seen marvel characters eating shellfish!

I forgot to address mentioning clams (shellfish) and beards in the same paragraph. Ha-ha.

R.J. that's very Shellfish of you!

Sorry, I guess we should clam up now...

To clarify, my hatred for Emma Frost stems more from the fact that she's been positioned as the "Boobies!" of the X-Men simply because she's boning the leader. Here's an intelligent, powerful, and downright awesome character who has simply become Cyclops' "my girlfriend" instead of a well-rounded character.

But anyway.

I just take comfort in knowing that not so long ago, people thought that a black person kissing a white person was "immoral (though I never really understood the word, as the last time I checked no one has the authoritative power to define what exactly is moral in the first place)."

Give it ten more years, or less, and the rest of the world will look back and laugh at these people the same way they laugh at racist bigots nowadays. The old way of thinking homosexuality as "immoral" will seem as archaic as any other form of prejudice that society has overcome.

On the beards thing... it's not beards, it's cutting them in a certain pattern that was part of how a certain ancient cult worshiped.

Wait... that's it.

Rogue was bearding for Northstar.

Hey Ryan,
Give it another twenty years at the rate things are going and the chicken fuckers and pedophiles will be parading down Main street.

Fourth, I wish I had thought of it, but frankly its one of the first points vocal OMD critics (and by OMD critics, I mean everyone who didn't write, draw or have any thing to do with OMD) bring up.

Fortunately OMD/BND didn't affect me one whit. I'm on a comic/action-figure purchase moratorium due to expenses and a recent change in employment. So crap like that has simply ceased to exist, even if it means missing out on stuff like 1985, Y: The Last Man Finaly TPB, the rest of Secret Invasion, All star or Ultimate anything, the Sandman trades from 4 onward after purchasing the first 3, and the upcoming rouster of Marvel Legends that at a glance, might actually be the moment Hasbro steps out of the deep mire of suck they have dragged the property into.

Hell, I was one of the lucky ones. I stopped buying Spidey when JRJR left the drawing to someone else, meaning I got to ignore Norman Osborn impregnating Gwen Stacy, which to some corner of my mind, is even more offensive and creepy than OMD. No chance BND erased that little speed bump, did it?

"Give it another twenty years at the rate things are going and the chicken fuckers and pedophiles will be parading down Main street."

So there IS hope for people with porpoise fetishes like myself then? Sweet.

more:

Ahhh. I was waiting for someone to drag that old chestnut out.

Yes, because two consenting adults having intercourse will, obviously, lead the way to people being able to publicly announce how they enjoy non-consensual acts.

You sir, fail at logic.

Every wall knocked down in the name of permissiveness becomes a stepping stone towards depravity.

I don't think you're qualified to grade me Typo.

WTF!

I thought aardvarks with porpoise fetishes WERE legal and accepted!

I'm cancelling my subscription to PlayMammal now!

I don't think you're qualified to define what exactly is depravity or morality, morecowbell. Or do you have some kind of license or badge that you can scan to show us all?

Yes, morecowbell, we should all only have sex with a sheet between us (with a hole cut out) while we are watched by our relatives who ensure that intercourse is only being done for procreation and nothing more.

Nothing depraved in that. I would love my in-laws and my parents to be watching... I take it you do?

Hey now!

Can we not bring in the stupid anti-Semetic hole-in-the-sheet thing?

We don't DO that. None of us. In fact, technically you're supposed to be butt nekkid and having as much contact as possible.

More: And I'm as qualified to judge you as you are to judge everyone else.

Simple logic. Consensual sex does not equal non-consensual sex.

Minors and animals can't give consent. The cute guy in shipping can, and just might.

maybe porpoise love is, but there was the story of the guy who got jail time for being caught in the dolphin tank giving the dolphin manual stimulation...

isnt there the MPL Society? (Man Porpoise Love)...?

i know texas frowns on the unnatural love between a man and his aardvark tho...wait...maybe thats an armadillo....they dont mind a little spooning, but tongue kissing is strictly forbidden...

i just have to say that straight men do not dress up in spandex and go out in public (we do it inside, in the dark, with the curtains closed while watching Superman 1 )...to fight crime or otherwise...for one its just not practical....tho i guess it could be worse..they could be wearing sport shorts and sandals...ugh...talk about gay...

Tho i also have to input that writers write best what they know on some level, so...

Has anyone come up with a good story line that would involve Northstar being in a relationship or being kissed or anything?

I say submit it....

the interesting thing to me is, if anyone is familiar with Japanese manga...theres a line of gay comics and anime...tripped me out the first time i unknowingly ran across one of the gay anime...

Straight men don't go outside and wear spandex? So all those cosplayers at SDCC are gay? Wow. That's a whole lotta gay.

Actually Ryan, I do know the difference between right and wrong, and what constitutes depraved and immoral behavior. The fact that so many like yourself don't believe in such concepts is why the world is becoming increasing screwed up each year. But eventually you will reap what you sow.

Blackjak, Regarding your fantasy of having your parents watch you have sex,( with what, I can only wonder ) Well, You sir are just plain weird.

Ryan, Blackjak, and Typo, Is this how all these threads play out? if you're straight, and have an opinion and some morals all the queer boys are gonna gang up on you? I guess I'll just head out to my Klan meeting now and leave you boys to it. Good luck with having sex with or infront of your parents Blackjak, hope that works out for you.

Did I ever say that I don't know "the difference" between "right and wrong?" Don't knock my argument on its head by taking the "morality" viewpoint--that's a fallacy of logic when debating an issue.

In any event, the "difference" as well as what is defined as "right and wrong" is subjective from person to person, and no one person can possibly say that they know for certain which is which. As I said before, it used to be "wrong" for two people of a different race to sleep together. It used to be "wrong" for minors to even read comic books int he first place.

We've since evolved as a society, and we will keep evolving, and I promise that no one's going to rape your children because my boyfriend and I want better health insurance or because a comic book character holds another man's hand.

No Morecowbell, it's not. You're more than welcome to have an opinion. I would just prefer it if you could back it up with, say, logic and reason as opposed to the "because it's just wrong and immoral" argument. Contributing real viewpoints: It's a good thing.

More- Are you begin ganged up on? You're being disagreed with. Not the same thing.

Also? For the record, I'm a married heterosexual male. I love my wife very much, and don't feel that another man loving another man diminishes that love in any way.

In the words of the late Rav Aharon Solveitchick

"If you are secure in your Judaism, you don't insult other religions. If you are secure in your Orthodoxy, you don't look down on other Jews. If you are secure in your sexuality, you have no reason to [verbally] attack homosexuals. Homosexual intercourse is against the Torah – Homosexuals are still created in Hashem's image and we should treat them as such."

So yes, I chimed in to correct the refs to Leviticus.

Sorry if you feel ganged up on. No-one's forcing you to be gay or have gay friends. We're just saying "Hey, know what? They're people. Also? Stop misquoting the Torah".

I love how when people see the word "Homosexual" they immediately focus in on the "SEXUAL" part, as if that's all homosexuality is. Never mind the loving, consenting, mutual love aspect to it (y'know, just like HETEROsexuality). There are some people who just seem to live happier lives pretending gays/lesbians are all sexual deviants and I weep for those people, I really do. It's sad when hatred and discrimination are part of your defining qualities...

Ryan, Blackjak, and Typo, Is this how all these threads play out? if you’re straight, and have an opinion and some morals all the queer boys are gonna gang up on you? I guess I’ll just head out to my Klan meeting now and leave you boys to it. Good luck with having sex with or infront of your parents Blackjak, hope that works out for you.

You imply that one cannot be gay and have morals. You are incorrect.

You imply that hating gays because they're gay makes you similar to the KKK. You are correct.

Sorry, Brian, forgot to put my info in there. That anonymous is me.

Ryan, Blackjak, and Typo, Is this how all these threads play out? if you’re straight, and have an opinion and some morals all the queer boys are gonna gang up on you? I guess I’ll just head out to my Klan meeting now and leave you boys to it. Good luck with having sex with or infront of your parents Blackjak, hope that works out for you.

You imply that one cannot be gay and have morals. You are incorrect.

You imply that hating gays because they're gay makes you similar to the KKK. You are correct.

And again, I ALSO am straight, morecowbell. You simply think that because we disagree with you on gays we must BE gay.

Maybe his problem is he *wants* to be ganged up on.

whoa, someone deleted my post..
and yet all these intolerant posts [in both camps] are still here.
lets try again.

so, do ultimate northstar and colossus have a thing together still? seems like ult marvel's strongest relationship.
and so what if two men or two women having sex is unnatural, so is wearing clothes, or driving a car, big fuckin deal,
what ANYONE does, in their own lives has no bearing on your life, or mine.. including reading this..
hmmm.
moving on.

It's getting more and more rare to see such open displays of ignorance and bigotry as some of what's been posted here by MCM, morecowbell and various other ignoramuses. I suppose their presence serves at least one positive purpose, though, in that it is a good reminder that while most bigots with an ounce of sense who don't hide behind an internet alias know better than to openly voice such vile small-mindednes, there are still lots of hateful douchebags out there. Not as many as there used to be, and fewer every day, thankfully, but still all too many.

The fellow above on who identified himself as an athiest but who went on to justify his prejudice on the false premise of homosexuality somehow being "unnatural" (despite mounds of scientific evidence to the contrary) is also a good reminder that while religious doctrine (often poorly understood or cited out of context) is a major source of anti-gay bigotry, there are nonetheless plenty of other folk that hold the same sorts of ignorant prejudices without religion being a factor in their bigotry.

No posts were deleted, by the way - maybe something got picked up by the Spam blocker (it happens sometimes), but I didn't delete any posts.

I give up. I'm using my phone for this and it takes FOREVER to scroll down. There's no way to jump to the end. It's been great, but I can't keep up. Have fun, everyone.

Wow, I come back after a day to read the new posts at work, and wow, soooooo much stuff (though not much about Northstar situation directly.

Anyways I'm super indeterested in tracking down old collections of Alpha Flight now.

Not only is it nerdy, but patriotic for me.

Hopefully we'll see Northstars situation explored more creatively and properly in the future.

I like Greg Rucka, maybe he'll switch companies for it, he seems to like a hard story to write about.

Just to note : Typo is like my hero, somebody who has studied the Torah as clearly as I have (despite not being Jewish). I am happy someone eventually made those points in the arguement that unraveled.

Oh well, back to the grind of working at a gaming/comic store, woe is me....

Typo: Apologies. Sincere ones. I was trying to make the point that we have, as a global society, moved on from some very stereotypical (and admittedly mythical) customs...

Mr Cowbell obviously missed the point.

I am always grateful for clarifications on the Torah as well, as I try to read as many scriptures as possible to broaden my mind and understanding of others customs. I don't really know how well the Old Testament compares to the Torah, but seeing as there are so many different versions of the Christian Bible with different emphases/translations, I would love to get my hands on a Gentile version of the Torah...

Back (finally!) on original topic: I lost track of 616 Northstar after he got zombified by the Hand... I presume he got better? I think it's about time Bobby Drake had a screaming row with him, where he finally admits that actually he's gay, but he was raised to be a bigot, hates himself, and doesn't know what to do...

Cue: Close issue (and issue) with a full page splash of Northstar hugging a weeping Bobby, kissing him him gently on the lips, with a small tear running out of the corner of his eye.. [Obligatory lens-flare in the background, natch] - can be done tastefully and artistically.

Now I'm off to bed (with my wife).

Morecowbell, the In-laws thing is a joke that you completely missed out on. May I suggest you try and find a copy of an old Richard Gere film about King David? Then again, maybe not...

The best current translation of the Torah I can point one at would be the ArtScroll Publishing's "Stone Edition". It has a better grasp of idiom and context than the King James and the other translations of a translation.

The best way to read it, of course, is in the original Ancient Hebrew. Alas, my Hebrew is weaker than it should be.

Typo: Same problem with the Qu'ran... No-one actually speaks Classical Arabic anymore... There are scholars (as there are for all the Books) but as usual, each has their own interpretation...

As you say, the best way is to read the original, in the original tongue if you can...

Hope I live long enough to read them all ! The Bhagavad Gita is also one I'd like to read in the original Sanscrit...

gaymer: Rumor has it that there's supposed to be a new iteration of Alpha Flight out in December that's closer to the old iteration of Alpha Flight. Assuming this is even a thing happening, I'd be interested to see the creative team they've picked for it. If, by some stroke of Providence, Rucka were writing the thing, I think I might swoon.

Brian - fair enough, apologies for jumping to conclusions.

"Actually Ryan, I do know the difference between right and wrong, and what constitutes depraved and immoral behavior. "

No, you don't. You have an OPINION on the subject, and a woefully uninformed one at that.

"With so many bad things going on in Hollywood and the sports world (drugs, sex, perversion, steroids, etc), why drag comics down with it?"

Bad things like Love? Warmth? Companionship? Joy? Fun? Hope?
Yeah, we should leave that shit out of modern comics.

Love and kisses,

Dan DiDio.

"It’s not so much homosexuality that doesn’t belong in superhero comics as much as sexuality period."

Dude. It's KISSING. Not Double Anal.
Kissing has been going on in comics, like, FOREVER!

Oh Noes! Superman Kissed Lois! SEXUALITY!!!

Seriously, if that's your definition, then Archie must just be a goddamn orgy for you.

"To answer an earlier post (by the way it’s Karen C, not Karen B), here is my religious claim:
What the Bible says about homosexuals."

And you know what, according to Leviticus, God hates Bunnies too.
Leviticus 11:5 and 11:6.

Bunnies are UNCLEAN! Yeah, so go protest Bugs Bunny or We3 or summat.

"So basically, there’s no basis in the book of my people for any sort of bigotry against homosexuality, and while I can’t speak for all my people, I’d really like it if everyone would stop citing it as an excuse to hate."

I do have it on good authority though that Typo HATES Bunnies.
It's not a religious thing or anything.
He's just a bit of a freak like that.

While my bunny hate is well documented, I'd like to note that bunnies are not "unclean". They're just "trief", which means not kosher. There's no "impurity". We just can't eat them.

...

Hey, where'd that stick come from!

So Paradox,

Your opinion of right and wrong allows you to judge how woefully uninformed mine is.

I hope you can see the sheer stupidity of this statement, or is it a gag referring to your handle?

Hey, Pol Rua, if the same dipshit fanboys that were in charge of the big two ran Archie then there would be orgies, and drug use, and abortion, and any other crap that hack writers thought would help aging retards that can't move on stay interested. Maybe the Care Bears should do an episode where Lucky Bear deals with a gambling problem? Or perhaps Scooby Doo should tackle eating disorders? That way people who should outgrow this stuff can just stay with it and never have to face growing up. Instead of reading about Batman having sex, you all should grow up and go out and experience life for yourselves.

I know what stops you. I worked in a comic shop. I've seen (and smelled) you. Go ahead and tell me how you are married or getting more ass than a public toilet, I don't believe you. Make whatever pithy remark you want, any of you, But if you really think all this mature crap belongs in comics about superheros then you are complete morons.
And stop lumping me in with all the raging homophobes and religious fanatics, I'm conservative and don't like all the crap that gets run in what should be kids books but I'm not preaching hatred of gays or quoting the bible.

An,

maybe you need to dial back the anger? or am I reading into your post.

We disagree with you. You're free to ignore us.

As for super hero comics being kids books... that's part of the problem. The "mature themes" are dealt with in a childish way, rather than having any depth to them. In a way, i agree that I'd rather not see stuff there, since it's going to be ham-fisted.

Your Care Bare example seems off though, simply because Care Bares are marketed at kids, wheras X-men has... how many kids as readers? Anyone have stats?

And no-one's lumping you in with the homophobes except yourself.

"Your opinion of right and wrong allows you to judge how woefully uninformed mine is."

No, your ridiculous archaic statements are what allows me to judge how woefully uninformed yours is.

Anonymous, do keep in mind that most religious fanatics and raging homophobes also identify themselves as cultural conservatives, like yourself.

For the record, I agree with you that a lot of what passes for "mature content" in superhero comics doesn't belong there. I consider IDENTITY CRISIS one of the most egregiously bad comics ever for that very reason (well, and about 100 others, but digress). I don't think superhero rapists are an especially good thing to base a Justice League comic around. I don't think that sort of thing generally - with the possibility of very rare, tastefully handled exceptions - belongs in the stories of the classic, mainstream DC and Marvel characters.

Where I disagree with you 100% is the idea that the existence of gay characters, or even having gay characters that kiss or otherwise display obvious signs of affection, is inappropriate content for mainstream comics. Do they need to be shown having anal sex? No, but then, neither do Batman and Catwoman (or Silver St. Cloud, or Robin, or Alfred or whomever). Like Pol brilliantly said above, it's not double-anal, it's kissing.

You don't like being compared to a Klansman or religious fanatic? Then stop demonstrating a mindset like theirs - and yes, keep in mind, the KKK also identify themselves as a conservative group, and like you, they oppose gay rights. At one time, people would - and did - make the same sorts of arguments you make in regard to showing interracial relationships in comics and other mainstream media. Today, we consider such arguments stupid, and the people that make them bigoted. That's pretty much universally how today's anti-gay arguments are going to be regarded 30 years from now, too.

Gay people are people, Sometimes they love each other. Unless you think love and relationships are completely inappropriate things to show in comics - and if so, good bye ARCHIE and most of SUPERMAN and a gazillion other books - then your insistence that somehow there's something wrong with showing that gay people exist and sometimes are affectionate, then your argument comes down to nothing but bigotry. You can toot the horn of "tradition" and "conservative values" all you want, but bigotry based on cultural tradition, religious belief or anything else is still just bigotry.

And by the way, your insults toward Pol demonstrate that you're pretty much just a loudmouthed asshole, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised that you're a bigot, too.

Ah, looking back, I may have misread an aspect of Anonymous' brilliant screed. Rather than specifically insulting Pol, his "I've seen (and smelled) you" was apparently intended to refer to fanboys in general, or people who disagree with him in general, or... well, something other than (presumably) other conservatives like himself.

Still a loudmouthed bigoted ass, but in a more generalized (vs. targeted) manner.

"Hey, Pol Rua, if the same dipshit fanboys that were in charge of the big two ran Archie then there would be orgies, and drug use, and abortion, and any other crap that hack writers thought would help aging retards that can’t move on stay interested. Maybe the Care Bears should do an episode where Lucky Bear deals with a gambling problem? Or perhaps Scooby Doo should tackle eating disorders? That way people who should outgrow this stuff can just stay with it and never have to face growing up. Instead of reading about Batman having sex, you all should grow up and go out and experience life for yourselves."

No, No, No, No, No Fucking No.
We are NOT talking about a character shooting smack into the eye of his dick while being savagely rogered in the eye socket by a donkey.
We are talking about people in love kissing.

People. In. Love. Kissing. Their. Partners.

You know, like comics have featured forever.

Thinking further on this, I wonder if there's a hidden reason for Northstar's being gay.
The real question here seems to be...
Are gays really born gay, or are they MADE gay because every time they touched their pretty sister there was this blinging white light and all the accompanying tsking and scolding and shame from an over-protective mama, aunts, sister's big boyfriends etc?

Honestly never realized Byrne worked so deep...

Bloody hell, and I thought the "A ten year old could plot a comic" thread was bad...

And obviously that should read "blinding white light."

I hate screwing up a joke.

I cannot BELIEVE that 'conservative' Anonymous couldn't be brave enough to identify himself to state his opinions! Conservatives are proud to use their real names, buster! You're no Barry Goldwater.

If anyone (with a sense of humour) gets the chance they should check out the classic Channel 4 sitcom "Fr' Ted." Specifically the "Passion of St. Tibulus," episode.

Quotes include:
[Ted and Dougal are holding up protest signs]
Father Ted Crilly: Down with this sort of thing!
Father Dougal: Careful Now!

Ted: I know for a fact St. Tibulus wore more clothes then that. He was from Norway or somewhere, he'd have frozen to death
Dougal: And do you remember that bit when St. Tibulas tried to take that banana off the other lad
Ted: That wasn't a banana Dougal.

Hilarity ensues.......

Hey Jeffey,

Fuck you.

See? Right there! Why would anyone hesitate to sign their name to such a thoughtful post?