Comic Book Resources

Spider-Man's not on a team.

At least, not in any of the Avengers comics that count. Putting Spider-Man on the Avengers automatically disqualifies the issues from being in continuity. Ditto with Wolverine.

Oh, and in my world, 'Civil War' never happened.

Starman - the Will Payton version. I liked that character, particularly the fact that he didn't have your standard flying brick powers. He had the usual strength/invulnerability/flight plus power blasts, of course, but he didn't have speed, and he did have minor shape-shifting, mainly of his facial features, plus some interesting twists, like the sudden need to adapt to no longer being human enough to need to breathe. Unfortunately, the execrable Eclipso crossover came along and they dropped a bridge on him, Captain Kirk style. A waste.

Active characters, tho? Pickings are slim. Deadman? Mary Marvel? That's all I can recall; even Ambush Bug was apparently in the JLA, though that may have happened during 52 so I missed it.

The Punisher (although he isn't strictly a "superhero" the way he's been written the past decade or so -- which is my preference, actually --- but I digress)

Deadpool (unless you count his partnership with Cable or his Weapon X affiliation as a team)

Elektra (assuming Hand membership doesn't count as being part of a team)

That Wolverine fella could stand to be on a few more teams, for my liking. Too much of a loner, that boy.

mary marvel was on the superfriends (i can't believe its not the justice league I think). what about swamp thing? warlord? the demon (would you consider him on shadowpact?)

Do the recent Seven Soldiers count? They were never actually teamed-up per se...

Deadman?

Wolverine is a team all on his own... There are really at least five of them in active duty at any one time... They meet in a bar called "Claws 13" every Friday to compare notes and keep their respective stories straight...

The Question?

Marvel's a lot tougher...

Nick Fury??

Phantom Stranger? Or does the Trenchcoat Brigade count?

Does Ghost Rider count? He was on the new Fantastic Four for 4 issues...

Moon Knight and White Tiger are both solo afaik (though both are registered)

On the DC side, Swamp thing was never part of a team (i think)

wasn't moon knight an avenger for a while? If we don't count the trenchcoat brigade then you can toss in constantine. would you consider phanton stranger on shadowpact? how bout anthro? or omac?

Mattie was a member of the Loners. Do they count?

The Johnny Blaze Ghost Rider was a member of the Champions, right? I'm not sure if different versions of the character count as not part of a team or not.

I thought Adam Strange was made a member of the Justice League in the '70s...

The sad thing is that they didn't drop a bridge on Kirk a decade earlier.

Hey, whatever happened with the Marvel idea of having a super-team in every state? Are they following through on that idea, or is it another "Claremont"?

Yes, The Johnny Blaze Ghost Rider was a member of the Champions. Moon Knight was an Avenger long enough to be given a membership card, tho his exact status is a bit dodgy (was he a reserve member only?).

Does Leonard Sampson count as a hero? I'm too familiar with his history, so someone will have to check that out.

Alan: They do appear to be follwing through with it... The Initiative just featured a bunch recently.. And I think Hellcat's new series is based in the Alaskan Initiative team...

I agree with John Seavey. Spider-Man never joined the Avengers (or Ultimates) except in comics that are apocryphal, so he counts.

Len Samson was a Hulkbuster and a SHIELD agent as well though...

Dunno if we're counting SHIELD as a "team" or an organisation though...

Spider-man was in the Fantastic Four though?

Jason Blood was on the Justice League during Joe Kelly's run; does that count as the Demon being on a team?

I think Adam Strange was an honorary member, which I don't believe should count.

Captain Mar-Vell was only named an Avenger posthumously. Before then, he had never been affiliated with any superhero team.

What about when Spider-Man joined the Avengers as a reservist ,pre-Bendis; do those issues count, or are they apocryphal too?

For DC, the current Mister Miracle, Shilo Norman, has never been a member of any team.

The Guardian, both the original Kirby version and Morrison's new one, has never been a superteam member.

After that, it gets kind of hazy. Alpha-Centurion? Captain Ultra? Brother Voodoo?

Shilo was briefly a member of JLA in vol 2. Just post-breakdowns, I think? I mean, he was filling in for Scott and it wasn't a long stint, so it may fall under the category of Task Force, but he was there.

Crap. I still stand by Brother Voodoo, though.

And Spidey was most definitely an Avenger even without counting "New Avengers." Wasn't he the one who vouched for Sandman during his nomination?

"Moon Knight " - he was a member of West Coast Avengers, wasn´t he?

Spider-Man did vouch for Sandman and appeared in at least two stories as a card carrying Avengers member that I can recall (not counting stories in which he worked with the Avengers but wasn't a member) before New Avengers.

Moon Knight was, indeed, a member of the West Coast Avengers towards the end of Englehart's run. I forget his exact status, though: he might have been a provisional member or reservist, but either way, still technically a member of the team, I suppose. Incidentally, he left the team along with Mockingbird and Tigra to form their own short-lived three person team after Hawkeye got pissed at Mockingbird for refusing the save the life of the man who raped her.

...yeah, not one of Hawkeye's finest moments...

Moon Knight was a member of the West Coast Avengers and White Tiger was a member of Heroes for Hire post-Onslaught.

And Brian... I hate to point it out but... Daredevil was a part of the "Marvel Knights" team.

Daredevil and the Punisher were both part of the Defenders style non-team in the Marvel Knights book.

Blade? Or did I miss something in the '90s?

Blade was a member of the Nightstalkers.

Blade was one of the Nighstalkers in the 90's, and it's been announced he's joining up with Captain Britain and MI-13 next month.

What about Captain Comet? Or just Copmet, nowadays.

Comet, that is. Although Copmet might have never been on a team, either.

The All-New Atom was offered a place on the current Justice League. I believe he turned it down.

I believe the new Aquaman has never been on a team. (I don't count his appearance in 5 of a kind as actually being part of the Outsiders since that was just a try-out.) Simon Dark hasn't been part of the team, but you know, he's Simon Dark.

The Question (either mainstream DCU character with that name) has surely never been on a team. (Obviously, the DCAU Question was rather famously part of the JLU, but we only care about mainstream continuity here.)

But a lot of the teams in the DCU have huge membership. Basically any female has potential to be a Bird of Prey. Any teenager has potential to be a Teen Titan. Any legacy hero has potential to be a JSA member. Any popular hero has the potential to be a member of the JLA. Checkmate can recruit members from around the globe. And there's a bunch of tiny "we have 7 friends with superpowers, let's team up together" groups.

How about Cloak and Dagger.

Right ok I know that I'm going to struggle justifying a duo being a solo anything BUT their not a member of an established team, a duo hardly counts as a team and anyway they're always 'Cloak and Dagger' kinda as one...

...nah its too much of a stretch isn't it...

Captain Comet was a member of the Secret Society of Super-Villains and L. E. G. I. O. N.

Dagger was a New Warrior.

"Comet, that is. Although Copmet might have never been on a team, either."

Captain Comet was a member of L.E.G.I.ON.

This is a tough one. Maybe Ka-Zar and Nomad, although he was a partner of Cap for a long while so he might not qualify as a solo hero.

On the DC side - El Diablo?

I think the team affiliation thing about DC is one of the better things about the universe, personally, since the teams tend to slip into well-defined roles and it allows you to elevate characters by having them work their way up the ranks (like Hawkgirl and Red Arrow in the current JLA)

As for actual characters... that's tough, since several DC teams (Secret Six, Suicide Squad, Shadowpact, etc.) are around to take advantage of obscure characters.

On the DCAU side, Bruce Wayne was technically never a full member of the JLA - the history in which he became a full member was erased (can't say "Batman", as Terry was a full member).

Zatara was never on a team. Don't think Sargon was either, although I could be mistaken there. Nor was Vartox.

The current Supergirl hasn't been officially on any rosters yet, has she? For that matter, I don't think that Matrix-Supergirl was ever on a team.

Azrael never joined any team either, right? Ditto Artemis

Current-Supergirl was a member of the Legion of Super-Heroes (when it was called, um, "Supergirl and the Legion of Super-Heroes") and briefly with the Teen Titans. Matrix-Supergirl was on maybe-Tiatns during DC One Million, but that very well may not count. I guess matrix's "active" status depends greatly on being sucked into Reign in Hell...

Wasn't Matrix Supergirl in the Titans at the same time Kyle GL was, shortly after Ganthep gave Kyle the ring, pre-JLA?

'GANTHET'!

Sargon the Sorcerer is an "honorary" members of the Justice League.

What about The Creeper?

Matrix - SG was a Titan. She was also a member of Team Luthor.

Linda SG, who split from Matrix SG wasn't a team member of anything, though she teamed up with Young Justice.

Hellcat actually is the whole Alaska Initiative team.

Deadpool is a member of the X-Men (Just ask him). (If a good writer was still writing Deadpool...read Nicieza...there'd be a whole long series of him attempting to move to San Francisco and Cyclops not letting him.

Ka-Zar?

The original Kirby version of the Guardian was a member of the All-Star Squadron during the 1980s.

Dr. Leonard Samson helped the Hulkbuster squads, but was he ever part of team?

I *think* Len Samson was a Hulkbuster... Certainly recently in She-Hulk, during the World Without a Hulk storyline, he seemed to be very much part of the team...

Pickings are slim. If you don't count Cap's Hotline and the never walking again thing, there's Jack Flag.
What about Peregrine? Though he hasn't been very active. Navid Hashim the third Arabian Knight fights the bill as an active solo superhero, as solo as can be if you're sanctioned by the Saudi government. What about Sabra?
Does X-Corporation really count?

> Moon Knight left the West Coast Avengers along with Mockingbird and Tigra to form
> their own short-lived three person team after Hawkeye got pissed at Mockingbird for
> refusing the save the life of the man who raped her.

Whoa, I must have missed a few issues.

I hated that book. Read all the Engleharts though, at least I thought I did.

fights=fits

Ditto Artemis

Artemis was really briefly part of the 90's Justice League America, as a "I'm Wonder Woman now, so I should do everything Diana did" plot. The Justice League sort of kind of tolerated her.

I'm oversimplifying a bit; The West Coast Avengers traveled back to the Old West, and Mockingbird ended up getting stuck there when the rest of the team went further back in time.

Ghost Rider (the original cowboy one) took a liking to her and essentially drugged her and raped her. When she found out, she was justifiably pissed and fought him. He ended up getting tossed of a cliff or something, hanging on the edge, and she turned her back, refusing to pull him up.

When she got back to the present, she kept the whole thing from Hawkeye because she knew despite the rape, he'd be pissed at her because of his adamant belief that Avengers never kill. Eventually, after being haunted by Ghost Rider, she confessed everything to him, and sure enough, he focused more on the "letting Ghost Rider die" thing than what had happened to her beforehand, so she bolted.

But all that is neither here nor there; the fact remains, there seem to be very few truly solo heroes left anymore, and the ones that are, are obscure, at best.

> the fact remains, there seem to be very few truly solo heroes left anymore, and the
> ones that are, are obscure, at best.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the "storytelling engine" of the team book; the idea that if these x characters all attract y readers, then getting them together will net you x*y readers. If that's the reasoning behind team books, then obviously all the "good" characters will eventually get swept into team books. The only characters who'd be left out are the obscure ones heroes who just don't attract many readers.

The Bendis Avengers are a very logical outgrowth of that reasoning. If sales are slumping, of course it makes sense to get Spider-man and Wolverine to join Captain America and Iron Man in a team book. How else?

Myself, I always liked the tension in the Marvel Universe, where their most popular character (Spidey) was *not* in the Avengers and never would be. I think resolving that tension is a bit of a mistake. But it does make sense.

Assuming that One More Day put into question Spider-Man's involvement with New Avengers, he was never a member of any team. He was invited to join the FF and the X-Men, and he accepted probationary status as an Avenger but declined after one mission. In the story, he agreed, but on the covers he was a "guest star".

Daredevil and Punisher should probably count as I'd rank the Marvel Knights as a non-team like Secret Defenders or JLTF.

Shroud turned down Hawkeye's invite to the WCA. Did he eventually join a team?

I think that you have to go down to the C or D list to find any. Did Paladin ever join anyone?

I'm tempted to nominate the Great Lakes Avengers as a team that never joined a team.

Theno

Did someone say Man-Thing? Howard the Duck?

I'm not caught up on her series, but as of the first trade, the current Manhunter (Kate Spencer) isn't on a team. Has that changed? Have any of the Manhunters joined a team (besides the one that was on Power Company)? She's been around for a little while longer than the all new Atom.

I was considering that Max Mercury may actually have been a member of some team throughout his many incarnations, but I can't recall any. I don't think it would really fit with his character either. And while we're talking about supporting characters from the Flash universe, what about that purple guy from Waid's run? Argus, was it? But he barely counts as a character.

And I don't know if Anarky counts as a superhero, but has he ever joined a team? In that same vein, Takion? Are the New Gods a team? The Monolith? The original Steel, the Indestructible man never joined a team during his series anyway.

And what about Robby Reed? Did he join a team ever?

Shroud was a member of the Night Shift, Paladin was a member of Silver Sable's Wild Pack as well as Heroes for Hire.

I deliberately didn't mention Team Luthor for Supergirl. That can't count. I haven't bought the latest New Avengers book yet and don't buy monthly comics; isn't Spider-Man still in there?

Lord knows I don't have the first clue how Brand New Day might affect this (as if anyone does) but in the early 90s, Spider-Man was significantly involved in three Avengers stories that I recall offhand. Somewhere's in the 310s he teamed up with the Avengers against Nebula and was again offered membership, but declined.

Later, in the late 320s he became a reserve member alongside a reformed Sandman and 90s stereotype Rage. At this point he was introduced to the public as an Avenger, in one of their patented "Press, meet the next group of Avengers" moments.

And then at the beginning of Operation: Galactic Storm, the Avengers called in all Avengers, reserve or otherwise. I forgot if Spider-Man showed or had his absence noted, but he was mentioned as an Avenger either way. Shortly thereafter, I believe he officially quits the Avengers (since he isn't comfortable with the notion of being "on call."

I'm pretty sure that makes Spider-Man an Avenger, even if we toss out the New Avengers stuff because of Brand New Day or because it isn't liked.

@Thenodrin

Didn't the Zeb Wells issue of Amazing Spider-man confirm he is/was a member of the New Avengers? He's hanging out with Dr. Strange and Wolverine (during the time Dr.Strange's home was the avenger's base), so I assumed he was there for some Avenger business.

Also was X-man, Nate Grey, ever on a team?

I've been flipping through some 80's Vigilante comics and I'm pretty sure he was never on a team. Was Wild Dog on a team? Basically, I suspect the guys with guns pretty much remain loners (angry loners, even).

For Marvel, I was going to say Adam Warlock but darn it, he founded the Infinity Watch.

Conan? According to What If? he's in Marvel continuity...

Technically, Nate Grey was on the defacto X-Men team Cyclops and Jean Grey put together that starred in a three issue Astonishing X-Men limited series.

Xavier had disbanded the X-Men because he had reason to believe they'd been infiltrated by a Skrull imposter, but of course, couldn't tell anyone that. So Cyclops and Jean formed their own team, consisting of themselves, Wolverine, Cable, Archangel and Nate Grey.

Then they fought a mysterious new Death (Apocalypse's horseman, not the cosmic entity) and Wolverine died. Turns out he was the Skrull. Bear in mind, this was several years ago, not last month as part of a Secret Invasion tie-in.

Why does anyone say "Spider-Man in new avengers" was retconed out?

Are you just intentionally being stupid?

Do you honestly think that Bendis's "masterpiece" and Marvel's best selling book that's the corner stone of everything the company is doing didn't happen because of the stupid marriage retcon?

No, his involvement makes no sense, but NOTHING HAS CHANGED because Spider-Man made the deal, other than him not getting married. They've said that again and again and again, and said "It's Magic, we don't have to explain it" to hand wave anything that doesn't make sense.

It's not "cute" to keep bringing it up like it's any kind of serious question.

Nate Grey was actually an X-Man, not just X-Man, for a while, shortly before the... what was it? Reload? Revolution? Something? The one where Claremont came back and Warren Ellis f***ed up the ancillary titles - including Nate's.

And didn't the new Manhunter have a stint with the Birds of Prey? I seem to recall seeing that somewhere.

I can understand why so few characters have never been on a team - there are so few characters that can carry their own book (from a sales standpoint, anyway), so putting characters on a team is an easier way of getting them exposure. And, if you're introducing a new concept, it's easier to have a team because that allows for more people to connect with certain characters, whereas if they don't connect with a solo protagonist, there's no real reason to come back. So it just makes more sense to put characters on a team (again, from a sales perspective).

That said, ROM never joined a team, unless we've decided that organizations (like The Hand, SHIELD, Checkmate, or in this case the Galadorian Spaceknights) count.

I guess you can look at heroes like the communications industry (telephone companies in particular). They eventually get absorb by some large group or other, to be "stronger". Right?

"And didn’t the new Manhunter have a stint with the Birds of Prey? I seem to recall seeing that somewhere."

Yes, and she's still on the team. The Birds are guest starring in the next couple issues of MANHUNTER and Kate still pops up in small increments in the core BIRDS book.

Every DC Golden Ager (including those DC only by retcon) joined the A*S-- inlcuding Sargon and Zatara.

Dev-Em never joined any team. Neither did Fate (ugh).

I'd say the Phantom Stranger was not part of Shadowpact but *was* part of the JLA.

I think it's interesting not only that the purely solo super-hero is so hard to find now but that many of those whose schtick at one time included not-joining have ended up joining-- Black Lightning, Metamorpho, Spider-Man.

Well, are we counting those bunch of Golden Age companies? I think the Archie superhero teams never got together in a team - the Web, the Shield, Hangman...

I guess it's a bit easier to write team books, even if the original justification is having lots of characters guest spots to attrack readership. It's easier to develop characterization when they can have characters talking to their peers, and that's more important then ever now that tought bubbles are about as popular as Rob Liefeld pencilling a Cloak and Dagger story. By the way, didn't Cloak & Dagger join the Avengers in the mid nineties - I recall they were on a Carnage taskforce.

What about the Black Cat? I don't recall her ever being part of a team. Same with Cassandra Cain (although I'm less certain in her case).

Have a good day.
John Cage

Same with Cassandra Cain (although I’m less certain in her case).

She's the newest member of the Outsiders.

The Archie heroes were a team called The Mighty Crusaders.

Black Cat was in Heroes for Hire.

Danny Ketch Ghost Rider was one of the New Fantastic Four

Brother Voodoo was one of the Supernaturals (along with Black Cat, Satanna, Ghost Rider, and Werewolf by Night), but since that took place in an alternate reality it probably shouldn't count.

Teebore said:

"What about when Spider-Man joined the Avengers as a reservist ,pre-Bendis; do those issues count, or are they apocryphal too?"

They're reserve apocryphal. I acknowledge that they happened, but I only pay attention to them if I really have to.

Scavenger said:

"Why does anyone say “Spider-Man in new avengers” was retconed out?

Are you just intentionally being stupid?

Do you honestly think that Bendis’s “masterpiece” and Marvel’s best selling book that’s the corner stone of everything the company is doing didn’t happen because of the stupid marriage retcon?"

No, I'm not intentionally being stupid (although I am probably being a bit of a dick.) My statement has nothing to do with the OMD retcon, and everything to do with the fact that Spider-Man and Wolverine are, for their own reasons, two characters fundamentally unsuited to being in an Avengers comic. The Avengers isn't just a random, "Hey, let's grab all the popular characters in the Marvel Universe and stick them in their own book" series. It's a comic about the heroes that the average person in the Marvel Universe idolizes, the heroes that people actually look up to. Spider-Man isn't one of those people; he's never desired public acceptance, and to some extent, I think he actually enjoys being able to act out in ways that Peter Parker can't. His becoming an Avenger transforms the character in a way that they're never going to follow up on in the Spider-Man books (becoming an Avenger is generally a road to social acceptance of a borderline hero, just look at Quicksilver, Hawkeye, and the Scarlet Witch), so he shouldn't be on the team.

Wolverine shouldn't be on the team because he's a cold-blooded killer, and Avengers don't do that. Nuff said.

Anyone who thinks it's a good idea to put these two characters on an Avengers team shows such a basic inability to understand the rationale of the Avengers series that they shouldn't be writing the book, and I refuse to acknowledge the existence of their runs. Childish? Perhaps. But just as Bendis doesn't owe me an Avengers book I enjoy, I don't owe him acceptance of his series as canon.

@John Seavey

You're right, Wolverine and Spider-man have never been (full-time) Avengers: They're NEW Avengers!

Yes, exactly, John Seavey. That's what I assumed you meant before and that's what I meant, too. Nothing to do with Brand New Day. The stories were already apocryphal.

> The Avengers isn't just a random, "Hey, let's grab all the popular characters in the
> Marvel Universe and stick them in their own book" series. It's a comic about the
> heroes that the average person in the Marvel Universe idolizes, the heroes that
> people actually look up to.

Like the Hulk?

Or like Cap's Kooky band of ex-villains?

The Avengers was a "let's grab the popular characters" book from issue 1 back in the 60s. Bendis' run is very true to the earliest foundation of the book.

Man-Thing was a member of Legion of Monsters along with Werewolf by Night, Morbius, and Ghost Rider. Howard the Duck.....I believe he was actually a Defender at one time.

I'll stipulate Man-Thing in the Legion of Monsters, although I debate the viability of having a team member who can't communicate or even THINK, but I doubt Howard was a Defender, seriously.

Another thing, off-topic though it is: People these days make a big deal about Wolverine being a 'cold-blooded killer', but I DISTINCTLY remember at one point in some X-title Wolverine actually STOPPING ANOTHER X-Man from doing in some really vile ratbag, saying, AND I QUOTE, 'X-Men don't kill, bub!' Incongruous as it seemed at the time.

I'm going to go with Christopher Chance, the Human Target.
Would he even be considered a hero before Milligan went Vertigo with him? He was in back-up stories in Action.

There's been a number of Avengers that have joined that didn't fit the idol worship idea. Remember when Namor joined the Avengers? He had long been depicted as having problems with surface dwellers. The Marvel public at large didn't necessarily fear him, but it's doubtful that they idolized him. Namor was a member for a number of issues in the mid to late 80's. Stern depicted a number of protests (mostly orchestrated by the Masters of Evil) against his inclusion on the team. Captain America even had to vouch for him for his inclusion.

In Avengers 298 or 299, Cap is thinking about the new roster and contemplates adding a mutant to the team in order to sway public opinion for mutants and cast them in a good light. It's not that hard to believe that Wolverine fills that role now. Or that the inclusion of Spider-Man is a chance for Spider-Man to prove his worth to the public at large.

What about the additions of Sandman, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, Starfox and the Beast? None of these characters strike me as being particularly idolized by the average joe. It's arguable that the public at large didn't even know Druid, Gilgamesh and Starfox at the time they joined the team. Sandman was a long time villain and the Beast might just squeeze by based on his being one of the more high profile mutants at the time, but weren't the X-Men considered outlaws? It doesn't strike me that a member of the X-Men would be particularly idolized.

Or what about the inclusion of novice heroes like Captain Marvel, Hellcat and Mockingbird? There wasn't any time for the average Marvel universe denizen to idolize these characters. The majority of their first adventures took place alongside the Avengers. Being in the Avengers made them idols, not the other way around.

There's definitely been some random additions to the Avengers over the years and though it might be strange to see Wolverine and Spider-Man as Avengers, I don't think it's necessarily out of character for there to be a place for them in the Avengers concept.

Batman has never joined a team, although several teams have joined Batman.

Man-Bat?

The Phantom Stranger did, in fact, belong to the JLA. At first his status was iffy, since he vanished before accepting the invite. But in a later appearance with the team, he acknowledged it.

I was going to say Jack-of-Hearts, but he was evidently an Avenger at some point. Dominic Fortune?

In Defenders #50 Howard the Duck is listed with many other past Defenders members...including Daredevil. I believe the story (actual teaming with Hulk, Dr.Strange, and Valkyrie) took place in the Howard the Duck book...both being written by Steve Gerber at the time.

Besides being a West Coast Avenger Moon Knight was also a Marvel Knight and a Defender as well.

Spider-Man was an official Avenger back in the late 80s/ early 90s against nebula. At least official enough that, when they called in all past/present Avengers (Vol. 3, #1), he was there. Too busy to help, but showed up anyway.

Ms. Tree?

The Wierd? (Although he WANTS to form a team, I don't think he's ever actually been a member of one...)

I think Wild Dog was on a team, but I'm really not sure... The Wild Pack rings a bell though...

Batwoman?

Gravity?

"AND I QUOTE, ‘X-Men don’t kill, bub!’ Incongruous as it seemed at the time."

I remember that issue! Rachel Summers was about to kill the Black Queen, but Wolverine stopped her by stabbing her in the heart and leaving her for dead.

@Blackjak

I believe Batwoman is going to be a member of Hal Jordan's and Green Arrow's Justice League. And isn't Gravity dead?

Lawrence:

I think Gravity came back (again) in Dwayne McDuffie's Fantastic Four run... Though he might have been killed (again) at the end of that... Bit hazy... I was getting a bit annoyed by the TimeFrogs...

Jewel (Jessica Jones) never actually joined the Avengers, did she?

I never understood why Wolverine nearly fatally stabbed her. Was he trying to humble her?

Wild Dog was recently part of the Justice League in the alternate world created in Booster Gold when Gold prevented Ted Kord from dying. So do alternate worlds teams count?

Yes, but Sandman, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, Starfox and the Beast weren't added to the Avengers for purely commercial reasons. Wolverine and Spider-Man joined the Avengers for the same reason they briefly joined the FF in the early 90s. In both cases it was a joke, but in the 90s, the readership was in on the joke and in the current version, the readership is the butt of the joke. That's why, this time, the joke just isn't funny.

but Sandman, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, Starfox and the Beast weren’t added to the Avengers for purely commercial reasons. Wolverine and Spider-Man joined the Avengers for the same reason they briefly joined the FF in the early 90s. In both cases it was a joke, but in the 90s, the readership was in on the joke and in the current version, the readership is the butt of the joke.
Starfox at least was a bit of a joke.

Whether Wolverine & Spidey "should" be Avengers or not, I don't see how the most interesting and compelling Avenger stories of the last 2 decades or longer qualify as a "joke". The presence of those two characters may not appeal to purists, but at least they represent recognition that the Avengers franchise was in desperate need of retooling, and a serious attempt to do it right.

Bad formatting above, sorry. How do you do quotes, again?

"Yes, but Sandman, Dr. Druid, Gilgamesh, Starfox and the Beast weren’t added to the Avengers for purely commercial reasons. Wolverine and Spider-Man joined the Avengers for the same reason they briefly joined the FF in the early 90s. In both cases it was a joke, but in the 90s, the readership was in on the joke and in the current version, the readership is the butt of the joke. That’s why, this time, the joke just isn’t funny."

You're confusing an argument here.
We aren't talking about the real world/industry reasons why characters are added to the Avengers, we're talking about Marvel universe reasons why those members were added to the Avengers. Seavey said "It’s a comic about the heroes that the average person in the Marvel Universe idolizes, the heroes that people actually look up to."

We're not discussing industry reasons why these characters are members of the Avengers, but Marvel Universe reasons.

> We aren’t talking about the real world/industry reasons why characters are added
> to the Avengers, we’re talking about Marvel universe reasons why those members
> were added to the Avengers. Seavey said “It’s a comic about the heroes that the
> average person in the Marvel Universe idolizes, the heroes that people actually
> look up to.”

He said it, but that does not make it true, despite the great insight he typically shows in the Storytelling Engines posts. It was not true in Avengers #1 in 1963, when the Hulk was a founding member of the team; it was not true a year or so later, when the team was Cap and a bunch of ex-villains.

Vision? Swordsman? Mantis? Tigra? Beast? Wonder Man? Ms Marvel? Falcon? She-Hulk? Roger Stern's Captain Marvel? Starfox? Stingray? Dr Druid? The Forgotten One? Quasar? Sersi?

Rage?

It wasn't true during the unreadable Bob Harras era, with Black Widow/Black Knight/Crystal and whoever else was on the team.

Bendis' run on the book is far truer to the origins of the book than has been made out in some posts here.

I think you missed my other posts. I agree with you and disagree with Seavey. I was responding to Matt Bird and explaining why his comments didn't factor into the argument.

We raise the same points.

> I was responding to Matt Bird

Wups, sorry.

You bring up the Hulk as a counter-example, but look what happened to the Hulk--he quit the team within the first four issues, because nobody trusted him and he didn't trust anybody. His membership just didn't work out, despite his being one of the popular "big guns" of the Marvel Universe, because even then, it was clear that the Avengers were more than just a gathering of high-sales superheroes.

"Cap's kooky quartet" was a milestone in the book's run for exactly that reason as well; Hawkeye, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch didn't just join because they were popular characters, they joined because they were sincere about wanting to redeem themselves and wanted to make it clear in a way that couldn't be ignored. They joined the Avengers to let the world know, "We can be trusted, we are heroes." And it worked.

That's also what Namor did, in Stern's run. He joined the Avengers to show the world that his "attacking the surface" days were past, that he was now a trusted member of the global community. Sometimes, the Avengers isn't about heroes who are already trusted, it's about heroes trying to earn that trust. (Justice joined, and his character's arc on the series was all about proving he could play with the big boys. Moon Knight joined, as did Mockingbird, and their arcs were all about showing how sometimes people could be good superheroes, but not good Avengers.)

"Avenger" carries a certain quality, an ideal that heroes try to live up to. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, but all the best Avengers runs have been about that ideal as much as they've been about the characters on the team at the time. Bendis, though, just threw together a bunch of random characters and had them go hit things until they died. He's not writing an Avengers book. (He's actually writing a Defenders book, which should have been blatantly obvious to everyone as soon as he put Doctor Strange in the series, but that's a whole other topic.)

...oh, and Wolverine stabbed Rachel because he thought she was going all Dark Phoenix, and he figured he'd nip that in the bud before she took out another solar system.

You're talking about subplots, not story drivers.

There is a set of stories where the Avengers are depicted as media darlings -- where US Weekly (and the world) is breathlessly awaiting the announcement of a new Avengers lineup. The first one of those stories that I remember was Avengers #151, written by Steve Englehart. (Maybe there was an earlier Roy Thomas version, I dunno.) I think this type of story might be part of the source of the perception that the Avengers "is a comic about the heroes that the average person in the Marvel Universe idolizes, the heroes that people actually look up to." Because there have actually been issues devoted to this idolization. Englehart's was a fresh and interesting take. But when Kurt Busiek reprised it 25 years later, I only found it annoying. Anyway, while this has become an Avengers cliche, I don't think it's anywhere close to the heart of the series.

There is also a leitmotif in team books where a team member is a bit in awe of the big boys he's running with now, and anxious to prove himself / fearful he won't measure up. You see this sometimes over the history of the Avengers. This might be another part of the idea that the Avengers is about the heroes that people look up to. I wouldn't call this leitmotif "central to the Story Engine of the Avengers", so much as a recurring bit of characterization. The best example that comes to mind is actually Kyle Raynor's Green Lantern during Grant Morrison's run on JLA, so I wouldn't consider this specific to the Avengers, at all.
(I think John Byrne had She-Hulk do this during his run on Fantastic Four, too).

The Avengers isn't "about" heroes trying to earn public adoration. I mean, sure there are often subplots along those lines. But The Avengers basic story is always this one:

"And there came a day, a day unlike any other, when Earth's mightiest heroes were united against a common threat! ... to fight foes no single hero could withstand!"

The tie that unites the Avengers is not that they are idolized by the public, nor that they are trying to win over public trust, nor that they are trying to live up to an ideal. The common thread is that they all perceive the threat and are motivated to work together to meet the threat. Members would be heroes who see a big picture, feel a strong sense of responsibility toward the civic good, have the bravery to stand together rather than hang separately, and are "good" (skilled) enough or "important" enough to play with the big boys. It hasn't even been important that members be team players: "lone wolves" often join, but then one of their character arcs involves them becoming team players.

All the public acceptance etc comes afterward. It can't be the main thing, because then the characters aren't really heroes. And this was the huge flaw of the Kurt Busiek run on Avengers, because he had all the public acceptance / trust / am I living up to the ideals of the Avengers stuff be the MAIN story. Banding together against important threats was always secondary. The Avengers seemed like a lot of self-involved soap opera addicts during most of his run, except the big Ultron story. When Avengers stories focus on the "ideal" etc, they bog down terribly. (It's fine for one character to have some fleeting thoughts etc.) When they focus on the heroes banding together to meet big threats, the stories tend to be good.

So anyway, point being that the mansion (or the island or Stark's tower) and the quinjets and the public acceptance come secondary to the performance of the heroes.

Spider-man: If Avengers are defined partly by bravery and a strong sense of responsibility toward the civic good, then obviously Spider-man qualifies, possibly more than any other hero in the Marvel U. The questions about him would be: possible criminal past, not a team player, doesn't contribute enough, doesn't see the big picture. And maybe most importantly, doesn't want to be there. The first two are shown to be irrelevent by the whole history of the Avengers; Cap and Iron Man seem to think he contributes; and the last two have been kind of dependent on the last few years of storylines. Mind you, I don't think Spider-man works great in the Avengers, and by the time the current mess cleared-up I like to see him say "It's been fun." I think the Marvel U works a little better with him respected by the other heroes, but not part of their club. It might even make sense as part of his character's arc, for him to now be "good enough" for Avengers membership, and to have given it a try, but to conclude that it's really not for him. But it's silly to say that his membership "invalidates" a storyline.

Wolverine: I don't want to defend too strenuously the notion that Wolverine "should" be an Avenger, because I'm not completely sold on the story logic of it. Why would Wolverine be an Avenger, but Cyclops or Colossus etc would not? But as to him not "deserving" a spot in the group: Cap has killed, Thor is a mass murderer, and I think the backgrounds of Hawkeye and Black Widow might reveal a body or two. I'm sure that list is not comprehensive. Just the fact of having killed in the line of duty has not disqualified heroes from Avengers membership. Wolverine is a former soldier, and has shown a willingness to modify his behavior to be more in line with civilian authorities: he doesn't just butcher randomly anymore. I don't think this argument holds as much water as you think. Maybe 20 years ago.

Bendis: If the Avengers are defined by a group of heroes banding together against a threat no one of them could withstand, then the first issue of New Avengers fits that model beautifully. Of course it was purposely designed to fit that model, so that's not surprising. Cap's comment to Iron Man in the first couple issues of the series, about how he thinks the Avengers have already formed, that makes a lot of sense: the whole point of the Avengers is not that they are appointed. These heroes gather themselves. THAT's what makes them Avengers.

Obviously the current Skrull business qualifies as "heroes banding together against a threat no one of them could withstand", pretty well.

Why does everyone say spider-man never joined the avengers before new avengers. I have the issues were spidey JOINS the avengers for 4 issues!! Cap offers and he says yes. He is a full time member for 4 ISSUES and everyone says he is not an avenger. He was an avenger longer then the hulk was!

Spider-man was also members of--fantstic four, the outlaws, secret defenders, fantastic four., frightful four, and helped found the misfits.

Man-thing was also a member of the daydreamers with howard the duck was was a defener for one story.

Punisher was in marvel knights and secret defenders and deadpool was in great lakes avengers and heroes for hire.

By the way sorry for mispelling defenders.

Mat,

The reason that I don't "count" those four issues where Cap offered and Spider-Man agreed, is because the cover blurb on all four issues says, "Guest Starring" Spider-Man. From a marketing standpoint, he wasn't an official member, or else the cover would have said, "Now Featuring", or "Introducing the newest Avenger."

Also, from an in-character standpoint, I don't think Spidy was ever given a membership card. Although, yes, he did show up in the big two page spread of Every Avenger during one of the crossovers.

Theno

"There is also a leitmotif in team books where a team member is a bit in awe of the big boys he’s running with now, and anxious to prove himself / fearful he won’t measure up. You see this sometimes over the history of the Avengers. This might be another part of the idea that the Avengers is about the heroes that people look up to. I wouldn’t call this leitmotif “central to the Story Engine of the Avengers”, so much as a recurring bit of characterization. The best example that comes to mind is actually Kyle Raynor’s Green Lantern during Grant Morrison’s run on JLA, so I wouldn’t consider this specific to the Avengers, at all."

The perfect Avengers example of this is Justice, during the brillian Busiek/Perez run.

And the only Marvel character I can think of who has absolutely no team affiliations of any sort is the original Omega the Unknown. (not sure if the new one is in 616 or not)

"She’s the newest member of the Outsiders."

Also (and this is kind of a spoiler), she was a member of the Justice League Elite, albeit in disguise.

Then again, I don't think anyone at DC acknowledges that book as ever happening.

Len (Doc) Samson would appear to be definitely off the list... the "Next Issue" pic for Avengers: The Initiative would appear to have him as one-third of the new Skrull Kill Krew... alongside teh new 3D-man and a yellow dragon thing that kind of looks like Parallax...