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CSBG Archive

Comic Book Urban Legends Revealed #173

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This is the one-hundred and seventy-third in a series of examinations of comic book urban legends and whether they are true or false. Click here for an archive of the previous one-hundred and seventy-two. Click here for a similar archive, only arranged by subject.

Let’s begin!

COMIC URBAN LEGEND: Howard Mackie and John Byrne had also planned on erasing the marriage between Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson.

STATUS: True

Recently, reader Larry asked me if it was true that John Byrne and Howard Mackie had planned their own version of One More Day to erase the Spider-Man marriage during their run of Amazing Spider-Man, as well.

It is true, Larry.

Not for nothing, but ever since the early 1990s, writers at Marvel had been trying to do what One More Day eventually DID do, which is make Spider-Man single again.

First, they tried the Clone Saga…

Later, when Byrne and Mackie were doing Amazing Spider-Man….

they also considered how to get a single Spider-Man back into the comic, and an idea that they considered briefly (according to Byrne on his helpful website/forum, Byrne Robotics) was the Shaper of Worlds.

The practically omnipotent being would come upon Spider-Man during a particularly rough patch in Spidey’s life (think Miller’s Born Again) where Spidey is bemoaning his present and thinking back nostalgic to his past.

The Shaper would then, well, shape reality and return Spider-Man to his classic status quo, a clear reboot, essentially (including the supporting cast, as well).

For some time, Spider-Man would not realize anything was different, but ultimately he would and he would challenge the Shaper, say this is not what he wanted – the Shaper would tell him he could not help him, once shaped, he can’t unshape it.

So that would be the end of it – it wouldn’t be mentioned again (during their run, of course).

Ultimately, they decided against it, and instead went with a “Mary Jane may have died in a plane explosion” storyline instead to get a more or less single Spider-Man.

So while Byrne and Mackie’s story is certainly better than One More Day (specifically the whole “not involving Peter voluntarily surrendering his marriage” thing), it is still a surprisingly metaphysical story for a Spider-Man comic, much like One More Day.

Anyhow, that’s the deal, Larry!

Thanks to Larry for the question and thanks so much to John Byrne for being so forthcoming with his past plans on Amazing Spider-Man!

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91 Comments

I love Byrne but man I HATED his Chapter One reboot and time afterwards on the Amazing “relaunch”

I’ve always heard the Watchmen was originally plotted as 6 issues, and that’s why half the issues (2, 4, 6, 7, 9, and 11) are “background” issues that delve into the history of particular characters, thus doubling the length of the series. I don’t think it that extending it had anything to do with sales, but just with DC liking what they saw and encouraging Moore to expand it.

I always found it interesting that when Mary Jane was ‘dead’, ol’ Pete spent the night with Marrow from X-Men. If later continuity counts… that means Spidey has only been with two women… Mary Jane and frikkin’ Marrow. It always has bothered me that their stupid little attempt at writting out MJ (the first time) resulted in…. that.

Boy! Marvel sure seems to have hired a lot of writers who didn’t like MJ…

Bullcrap. In MY continuity Pete and Gwen did the nasty many many times. They were college students, ferchrissakes. I loved JMS’ run on Amazing, but making Pete a virgin until he met MJ was a bad, bad idea.

I agree with Aqualad.

Pete and Gwen Stacy were hot n heavy.

Man the first legend reminds me of that terrible Spider-man era. Brand New the event might be stupid, but the individual issues aren’t nearly as bad. The whole Mary Jane might have blown up thing was absurd and Peter started getting love interests left and right way too soon for good taste. And to follow up on previous comments, dude, Peter had to be hot n heavy with Black Cat. Peter slept with Marrow? I’m glad I missed that one.

I had the perfect plan to make Peter single again without the messiness of death or divorce, but Marvel wouldn’t go for it.

Mary Jane saves the world by becoming the Herald of Galactus.

I’m not sure if that is a good thing or a cop out, but the way sex is treated ambiguously in all-ages fiction, it allows for many interpretations, since there is no definite evidence. I suppose a religious reader could read Spider-Man and rest easy that Peter has never had sex out of marriage (believing it was only hugging and kissing with Gwen, Felicia, etc.). While a more liberal reader could come to the conclusion that Peter has had sex with every steady girlfriend he ever had.

Since Peter is young, attractive, fit, not particularly conservative (IMO), and lives a high-stress life, I’m more inclined to believe he had sex with a few others besides Mary Jane; Gwen Stacy and the Black Cat would definitely be on the list, perhaps a few others.

(Sigh) It’s always bothered me that such an iconic character was created by such an ethically dubious person. Everyone always talks about Siegel,Schuster and Kirby getting shafted, which I’m not arguing with but I personally don’t think anyone got screwed over more than Bill Finger.

We all know peter Parker is the respectful gentleman, but c’mon, it was hardly read between the lines stuff with Black Cat back in the day.

Marrow? jeez.

The Black Cat has definitely alluded to having had sex with Pete.

And the original plan for Gwen Stacy’s children was for PETER to have been the father, not Norman Osborn. (That has to be SECOND worst Spider-Man idea ever… The Mephisto deal being the first of course!)

Y’know, what does it say when Mackie and Byrne didn’t want a piece of the “magic retcon” action?

(Sigh) It’s always bothered me that such an iconic character was created by such an ethically dubious person. Everyone always talks about Siegel,Schuster and Kirby getting shafted, which I’m not arguing with but I personally don’t think anyone got screwed over more than Bill Finger.

that’s true, but i don’t really blame Bob Kane for Finger getting screwed over the way he did… Kane was, by all accounts, a natural hustler and was very sharp when it came to securing fairly adequate compensation and ensuring that his name would forever be linked to the character. Finger was a brilliant idea man, but he just didn’t have the foresight or the social skills and so he suffered in comparison.

Of course Black Cat would have insisted he always wear the mask. She didn’t like Peter much, just Spider.

Oh no, I didn’t mean for it to sound like I thought Kane was directly responsible for Bill Fingers sad fate or anything like that. It’s just…..whenever I read anything about Kane I come away with the impression that the guy was kind of a weasel. He should have at least given Finger his due. Years ago there was an interview with Bill Fingers son in an issue of Comics Interview. That’s the 1st I’d ever heard of Finger & the whole thing has always bothered me. That coupled with the swiping Kane engaged in his entire life just make me not to favorably inclined towards the guy. I still recall the “paintings” Kane was trying to hock around the time of the 1st batman movie……yeeesh they were awful, and blatant swipes of production stills and Todd Mcfarlane artwork.

“I’ve always heard the Watchmen was originally plotted as 6 issues, and that’s why half the issues (2, 4, 6, 7, 9, and 11) are “background” issues that delve into the history of particular characters, thus doubling the length of the series. I don’t think it that extending it had anything to do with sales, but just with DC liking what they saw and encouraging Moore to expand it.”

Did you not read the part where Len Wein explicitly states that is was always intended to be 12 issues?

Has anyone ever done more with less then Bob Kane? I can only think of a few people, and I don’t want to get all political here….

Actually, the most complete telling of Batman’s origins does have Kane directly shafting Bill Finger. Kane was told on a Friday to come up with a super hero idea and they would look at it Monday. He developed Batman, but his idea was terrible, essentially looking like Superman with blond hair and a domino mask. He happened to meet Bill Finger at a party that weekend, and showed him his idea. Finger told him what was wrong with it, fixed the pitch, and that was basically Batman. Kane took this to National, never mentioned Finger at all, and Batman was born.

I’ve heard this story several times, but don’t have a link to it. Anyone else?

When Bob Kane was named on this very site as one of the 365 reasons to love comics, I took great offense. Bob Kane built his career and reputation on the backs of others, and made his fortune at their expense. It’s embarrassing to see “Batman created by Bob Kane” plastered about.

“Peter slept with Marrow? I’m glad I missed that one.”

“Marrow? jeez.”

She looked completely human at the time, no bones protruding from her flesh. And she was suffering from temporary disassociative identity disorder, so neither she nor Peter even knew she was Marrow until after the fact.

“The Black Cat has definitely alluded to having had sex with Pete.”

Hell they did it on a rooftop once- full costume. Waaay the hell before All Star Batman.

There’s also resonable evidence supporting Pete’s sleeping with Betty Brant (in a one-night mistake). Someone’s Spidey site actually has a fantastic breakdown of Pete’s love life, and some very convincing arguments to him sleeping with Betty, Gwen, MJ- when it was done, how it was alluded to, consequences, etc.

Problem is, having said all this, I can no longer remember the site or link- point being, its conclusions drawn from the comics and not just badly written slash fiction. Its actually one of the most comprehensive, well-written deconstructions of the Spideyverse I’ve ever come across.

Slash fiction? Is there something about Spidey we haven’t known all these years?

Yeah, I always thought there was a lot of sexual tension between Spidey and the Human Torch. :p

Not only did JMS make Pete a virgin before MJ, he made Gwen more than a bit of a skank. JMS is a good writer who unfortunately sometimes comes up with some really boneheaded ideas.

Peter sleeping with a married woman deserves an entry of it’s own. Details and scans can be found here.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4270621.html

spideykicksbutt.com has a few thoughts on the subject too (found in the Mary Jane articles).

My mistake! Peter sleeping with the married woman is in this link!

http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4280427.html

Actually the Spideykicksbutt is exactly the site I was referencing above- that has the supposition that Betty and Pete might have overstepped the bounds of propriety- and gives some good impetus why Ned Leeds would want to beat the crap out of him. Thanks JB!

for the record… i hope peter wasnt a virgin by the time he met mary jane… i just was using the JMS comment to– well– make the marrow thing sound worse.

yea, he probably nailed black cat, gwen stacy and johnny storm on several occasions.

Flash and the football team probably passed Pete around the shower after gym class a few times too.

DC didn’t really have many 6 issue minis in those days. The Camelot model makes sense.

Kiebler’s comment is more than a little offensive. (Of course, Kiebler also probably wishes there had been more pictures of Dr Light’s rape of Sue Dibny.)

I don’t really understand how the Mackie/Byrne story is clearly better than OMD when it doesn’t even exist.

>>>>So while Byrne and Mackie’s story is certainly better than One More Day (specifically the whole “not involving Peter voluntarily surrendering his marriage” thing)…

Did anyone actually read One More Day? Because it was Mary Jane who made the decision for both of them and closed the deal with Mephisto, NOT Peter.

Hey, Joseph, seems to me it was just a joke. Lighten up.

Well anyways I am all for a urban legend entry on Peter boinking married woman Betty Brant Leeds

@MDK RE: JMS and Pete’s virginity…

As already stated above your comment, those were editorially-derived re-writes. The original idea JMS had was that Pete WOULD be the father unknowingly, but Quesada nixed that saying that it aged him that much more to have children – age-accelerated or not. So we know whose shoulders that boneheaded idea lays upon there.

That Shaper of Worlds thing sounds far worse than OMD. Frankly for all the bile associated with it, people don’t credit One More Day for what it actually does right. Peter Parker is involved at the core of the action. The momentum of the storyline depends on his own decisions and actions – imagine how much worse it would be if he were just a casual observer in an enormous story arc of his own book! The central threat is a theme that harkens back to the very first Spider-Man story – his foster parent dying at the end of a gun due to an unintended consequence of his failings as Spider-Man. And the premise of Peter eventually remembering what he’d lost is just daft – it would restore all the baggage the story existed to eliminate, and then add another layer of baggage on top of it.

(Personally I think a lot of people have misjudged his current life to be a lot better than the one he sacrificed – not the case at all, as the last issue of One More Day made clear, he unwittingly sacrificed a mostly wonderful future for the sake of an unpredictable one – those unintended consequences again! It is those few seconds he is made aware of this information that makes One More Day a Shakespearian tragedy, or I suppose a Marlowian one…)

JB, thanks for the great links-but forget peter parker sleeping with a married woman-what about his crazy threads!i think something is missing from John Travolta’s wardobe.D-I-S-C-O!!!

i’ve just read the site. Peter Parker, the Spectacular Homewrecker. Hillarious. Just going to show all the conservative fanboys out there that think modern writers are trying to corrupt the innocent kids, that comics haven’t been really that innocent in a long, long while.

Ken Raining wrote:

“Actually, the most complete telling of Batman’s origins does have Kane directly shafting Bill Finger. Kane was told on a Friday to come up with a super hero idea and they would look at it Monday. He developed Batman, but his idea was terrible, essentially looking like Superman with blond hair and a domino mask. He happened to meet Bill Finger at a party that weekend, and showed him his idea. Finger told him what was wrong with it, fixed the pitch, and that was basically Batman. Kane took this to National, never mentioned Finger at all, and Batman was born.

“I’ve heard this story several times, but don’t have a link to it. Anyone else?”

I believe it’s recounted in Gerard Jones’ MEN OF TOMORROW.

I have a possible urban legend.

Dr. Strange’s middle name is Vincent. In some of his earlier appearances, Dr. Strange looked like Vincent Price. Is it possible that when his middle name was given, it was a nod to Vincent Price?

You left out he origin of Batman’s costume which Kane admitted to taking from DaVinci himself and his body where he also mentioned tracing over a drawing of Superman.

Watchmen being 6 issues expanded to 12 just doesn’t work. It’s such a deliberately plotted series. Stuff that gets padded FEELS like it’s been padded. Look at the first episode of Thunderbirds. That was supposed to be a half-hour show, but the head of ITC liked it so much that he asked it to be expanded to an hour. So they literally padded the first episode to twice its length with extra flyovers of the FireFlash, one of the Elevator cars breaking down so they’d have to attempt it again, lots of stuff.

Well, taking a Dan Brown approach to Peter Porker’s — uh, I mean Parker’s — love life, we could easily see that Gwen would have had twice as much Peter as Mary. The proof being that the “w” in Gwen’s name has TWO of the “V” symbol for the female genitalia whereas the “M” in Mary only has one. To continue, Gwen and Peter had two children who, through the nefarious workings of Mephisto, were taken from the new parents, made to forget who they were, and ensconced in a secret garden somewhere in time… Mephisto later took the form of a serpent and offered the female the bite of a forbidden fruit, and that’s when all h-e-double hockey sticks broke loose in the Marvel Universe.

You’ve got to love the fact that somebody thought that Peter seemed too old and out of touch by being married, so making him a widower would be a good solution.

Mike Blake
September 19, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Ken Raining wrote:

“Actually, the most complete telling of Batman’s origins does have Kane directly shafting Bill Finger. Kane was told on a Friday to come up with a super hero idea and they would look at it Monday. He developed Batman, but his idea was terrible, essentially looking like Superman with blond hair and a domino mask. He happened to meet Bill Finger at a party that weekend, and showed him his idea. Finger told him what was wrong with it, fixed the pitch, and that was basically Batman. Kane took this to National, never mentioned Finger at all, and Batman was born.

“I’ve heard this story several times, but don’t have a link to it. Anyone else?”

I believe it’s recounted in Gerard Jones’ MEN OF TOMORROW.

Ah-ha! I own that book but haven’t read it since it was published. I guess I was right. Bob Kane = A hole.
Thanks Mike.

Hmmm.

After a beer-soaked evening or two, and waking up somewhere I shouldn’t, I’ve used the old ‘suffering from temporary disassociative identity disorder’ excuse…

Brian From Canada

September 19, 2008 at 2:47 pm

Tom -

Peter Parker could have been the center of the action even WITHOUT “One More Day.” It’s all about the writing. And whatever people say about the post-”Brand New Day” stories, VERY FEW of them are stories that can’t end with Peter going back to a struggling MJ. Same goes with most of the supporting cast — they might have easily fit in with a Peter & MJ scenario.

(If Quesada was so worried about her being a successful model, he could have just as easily had her hit the age plateau where most models and actresses become far less attractive to agents.)

The only GOOD thing about “One More Day” is that MJ now has to be killed off. It’s the basis for the Faustian deal: get the reward, get smacked down in the worst possible way. Hell, it’s the basis of the Ghost Rider movie! So if you don’t like MJ, you’re in luck because — at MOST — she’d have six months of Marvel time left on her life.

Oh, and Mephisto might have also brought back Gwen. And anyone else. Because, you know, Harry just came back out of nowhere… and there was no real point to doing that story-wise so far other than, you know, to connect with the first few episodes of Spectacular Spider-Man — a series that introduced a comic-less MJ.

Here’s the thing EVERYONE is forgetting: Bob Kane was in High School when he started out as a cartoonist. He wasn’t even considered an Adult when Finger and He started creating Batman. So it isn’t surprising that he swiped from a lot of different sources. And he was trying to swipe AND make it look a bit like Dick Tracy. The thing is, Kane made it his own and made it work for a comic.

The only reason why Finger was never recognized was of because of Kane’s father. When he saw what Bob signed, and what the potential was (Keep in mind Superman was a hit at that point), Kanes father got a lawyer and had it voided because Bob was a minor. When they re-wrote the contract, Kane was the only person legally allowed to a credit.

But make no mistake-Bob Kane was as influencial in Batman’s developement as Bill Finger. They bounced ideas off of eachother all the time. And near the end of his life, he did regret not giving Bill Finger the dues he deserved.

Some guy claimed:
“The only GOOD thing about “One More Day” is that MJ now has to be killed off. It’s the basis for the Faustian deal: get the reward, get smacked down in the worst possible way. Hell, it’s the basis of the Ghost Rider movie! So if you don’t like MJ, you’re in luck because — at MOST — she’d have six months of Marvel time left on her life.”

Not going to happen.

The sad thing is that it seems like Spider-man is dead now. Dead how? Well, as a character and as a book. They ran this thing where ‘everything has changed and everything was going to happen’ except it wasn’t. All the EIC and writer talked about was what a mistake it was that Peter was married and that Harry and Gwen were dead right before ‘everything was going to happen’. None of it meant anything because it was all about something happening next and then going to the next thing so it will be worse and Peter the guy that arguably betrayed everyone and no longer had a mind of his own would betray everyone in the universe.

That’s the worst idea of all time in all of comic book history.

This Shaper of WOrlds idea, in essence, might work if they made it brief, not promise things for two years that were never going to pay off. I read Spider-man recently and realized that it’s pointless now. Either this is the guy I knew (who was married at the time) that wouldn’t step into irrational decisions or he was the guy that do the most idiotic things without thinking about the consequences… which as it turned out didn’t matter. Nothing was going to happen. The unmasking was pointless and the wasted opportunity and there were no consequences for this guy for who I either really liked or really hated. I don’t care who they hire as writers or artists, nothing means anything anymore. It’s just about selling three issues a month.

Well, it was always about selling comics. One More Day/Brand New Day only serves as a rude awakening to fans who optimistically hold comic book companies to a higher standard than other corporations that don’t give a shit about you and consider you a walking sack of money.

“The only reason why Finger was never recognized was of because of Kane’s father. When he saw what Bob signed, and what the potential was (Keep in mind Superman was a hit at that point), Kanes father got a lawyer and had it voided because Bob was a minor. When they re-wrote the contract, Kane was the only person legally allowed to a credit.

But make no mistake-Bob Kane was as influencial in Batman’s developement as Bill Finger. They bounced ideas off of eachother all the time. And near the end of his life, he did regret not giving Bill Finger the dues he deserved.”

Yeah, Kane only had about 50 YEARS to do the right thing and make sure that Bill Finger and his family got a piece of the deal Kane got. The fact remains that Bill Finger died a near-pauper in the 70s, Kane had the power to prevent that from happening but chose to do nothing. Regrets don’t pay the bills.

Bob Kane was not a minor when Batman was created. That was a lie his father came up with after he read the contract. Then Kane’s birth certificate conveniently went missing. All this is in Men of Tomorrow. Just go read the book.

Peter was living with the Black Cat at one stage. I’m pretty sure they were doing the nasty.

A little off-topic, but those Byrne covers…gah! Talk about dreadful. Peter’s eyes must be over by his ears!

RE: Peter/virginity, I generally apply the Jim Kirk Rule to adult characters in all-ages material. If you see ‘em kiss, safe to assume you would’ve seen a lot more in an R-rated version of the same scene. If Marvel’s current continuity holds that Peter never slept with the Black Cat or Gwen (who I understand *did* sleep with creepy old Norman Osborne, though), then I’m that much happier that I no longer follow Marvel continuity.

I can buy Peter and Gwen never having consummated their relationship, but Peter and MJ definitely got it on sometime during the period between issue 130 and 181 (which is, I believe, where MJ broke up with Peter the first time). And yeah, he and Black Cat were doing all sorts of freaky shit.

Alex Rules takes his cartoon books seriously.

Bob Kane hate is way overstated on the internet. Kane was well within his rights to re-negotiate a clearly void contract that he signed when he was a minor, just as the Siegel and Schuster estates are well within their right to re-negotiate their own lapsed contract with DC now. Kane was seizing a chance at decent compensation by taking advantage of a loophole. He didn’t have the power or the responsibility to also fight for the rights of the other co-creators. They had signed away their rights in a less-legally-dubious fashion and that ship had sailed.

Was Kane less than conscientious in failing to set the record straight in later years? Yes. Was he a shameless swiper, in both story and art? Yes. But neither or these things are hanging offenses. Miller swiped most of the story and art for Daredevil #168 from a “Spirit” story, but it’s still a great, landmark issue. The internet hatred for Kane is driven by mob mentality.

And, yes, I still say that Watchmen was, at one point, conceived as six issues, and that’s why there are six “plot” issues and six “character” issues. I have a very clear memory of Moore himself saying this at some point twenty years ago. (Wein may never have known this.) I can’t track down the quote, but I ain’t making this up.

I’ve always thought that Gwen was the first girl Peter had sex with it. Anyway…

Perhaps material for another Urban Legend, and related to the present discussion: I’ve heard once (I think it was on Peter David’s blog) that DC Comics tried to say that Superman was a virgin before he married Lois in a 1996′s comic. Is that right? Superman’s marriage happened just as I was giving up on comics for a while, and I never got around to read those stories.

But I remember vividly, and have re-read recently, a story from the John Byrne years, an issue of “World of Metropolis”, one of the mini-series that Byrne did to flesh out Superman’s world, and it recounted Clark Kent’s first days in Metropolis and college, including making it very clear that Clark had his first time with a waitress he worked with at the time. The story included Clark thinking: “She taught me how to be a man”, or something very much like it.

I dunno, Peter David’s rant was in the line that some more conservative and/or fearful people at DC Comics considered the fact that Superman as a symbol of the American Way shouldn’t have had pre-marital sex. Peter’s complaints were related to his reviews of the Smallville TV show, I remember he said that Clark would never had sex in that show, because it was part of a plan by DC to keep Superman “pure” (ironically, Clark DID have sex with Lana in the show not much after Peter’s rant).

It’s interesting also that Marvel Comics never tried to pass Captain America as a celibate. He’s have been involved with Sharon Carter, Bernie Rosenthal, Diamondback, all of them strong women in their own right, and in each case, it surely seemed the relationships were consummated (I’m not too sure about Diamondback though).

I am another person who recalls reading (somewhere) an interview with/article about Moore where he was quoted as saying Watchmen was originally planned as 6 issues. It wasn’t the bit quoted above.

Re Bob Kane, I seem to recall reading in a different somewhere (possibly in Men of Tomorrow) something to the effect of: Siegel & Shuster approached Kane with an idea to force National to give creator rights to all three of them. He agreed to S&S’s plan; but then went to National, told them of the plan, and said he would join S&S in their effort unless National gave him AND ONLY HIM creator credit/rights/compensation, in which case he would join National’s side. National gave it to him. So (according to this version of the story) Kane not only screwed Finger, he screwed Siegel & Shuster too.

I don’t remember what the comics were saying at that point, but over in TV-Land, yes, Superman was a virgin at least through the episode “Virtually Destroyed”. Written in part, it seems, by Dean Cain. (thanks to the IMDB for episode title and writer trivia). Which means his first time was probably with the frog-eating Lois-clone.

Uh, Matt Bird…Bob Kane was born in 1915. He could not have been a minor in 1938 according to simple arithmetic.

Brian, What about Watchmen #12? i’m pretty sure there must be a huge lot of urban legends revolving the editing of that issue

Best regards from Spain

Well its been an interesting drift from Byrne’s pre OMD idea for a single spidey to Superman’s virginity or lack of, but I’ll buy ito it. around the time of Christopher Reeves Superman the Movies there was an interesting little paperback of superhero themed short stories (I can’t recall the title, it may have been ‘superheroes’ but i;m not sure, anyway) in it there was a stoty titled ‘The sex life of Superman which pondered the many problems. such as how during an orgasm the body undergoes what is akin to a brief epileptic fit. Any woman in Superman’s grasp would be likely crushed, and then have her head blown of as like him his sperm would be faster than a speeding bullet, which would occur if even one little kryptonian sperm got loose, never mind the usual number. as the little buggers would fly through all and sundry in an attempt to fertilize an unsuspecting egg. everything from peritonitis, to structural damage to buldings, roads cars etc. Admittedly this was all pre crisis, but I think the problems still apply. So I think its safe to say for the sake of the world Superman would have to remain a virgin.:)

I always found the whole Peter-MJ marriage problems pointless. Sure the idea of the nerds tapping a top model was ridiculous. But that was mainly McFarlane drawing her like this incredible bombshell. Peter is a better character on his own? Fine. If i’m not mistaken she was trying to break-in Hollywood and she was working there. So we don’t see her anymore since Peter lives in New York, Just don’t mention her again, don’t show her. So Pete is not divorced and not a widow. Life goes on. I mean having the freakin Devil coming down and just to break-up a marriage, man isn’t it overblown? Seems to me like somebody had a little obsession going on…

Shane, I think we are all familiar with Larry Niven’s “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex” essay.

wow. i can’t believe how far off topic my one comment has sent us.

Well, Post-Crisis they removed much of Superman’s power. Maybe he lost his Machine Gun Ejaculation. :p

Hey! At some point, Brian tracked down Moore’s “6 issue / 12 issue” quote and added it to the original piece! Very cool! Thanks, Brian! I knew I wasn’t making it up.

(And no, I hadn’t seen the more recent research saying that Kane wasn’t actually a minor, but if so, I’ve gotta say that earns him more of my respect. They played hardball so he played hardball. We spend all this time lamenting the crappy contracts that golden age creators got stuck with. Why attack the won guy who took on the system and won?)

I seem to recall Superman and Big Barda making porn together during the early part of Byrne’s run on Action Comics while under the influence of someone named Skuzz or Sleez or something like that,

“Uh, Matt Bird…Bob Kane was born in 1915. He could not have been a minor in 1938 according to simple arithmetic.”

Yes, but he started working for DC in 1936 when he was under 20. I suppose legally at the time Kane was considered an Minor. And to think that Nationals Lawyers couldn’t find his birth certificate its a bit silly.

Let’s face it. Bob Kane screwed over the guys who screwed over Shuster and Siegel . But unlike Shuster and Siegel , he was a company man and never made waves for National.

Matt, because no one likes a hypocrite. I’m not saying that is what Bob Kane is, but after Todd McFarlane, many people are understandably suspicious of proclaiming someone as a champion for creator rights when said “champion” also seems to have screwed other creators.

Tom Spurgeon said “We are the only industry that so loves its Colonel Parkers and so distrusts its Elvis Presleys.” To what Rich Johnston replied: “Why should we trust our Elvis Presleys? After all, they all seem to want to be Colonel Parkers.”

I know Bob Kane had no obligation to “fight Bill Finger’s” battles for him, but it still seems sleazy.

“near the end of his life, he did regret not giving Bill Finger the dues he deserved.”

How convenient for Bob Kane.

Max, that was indeed tthe piece I was recalling from memory, but being around 30 yeears ago, I couldn’t recall the correct title or author, so thanks for that.

Lets be honest on the get-go. Kane migth have been a company man, and there is nothing against it, but he was a pure hack of a human being and an ethical fail.

“An Ethical Fail”? Fuckin internet is ruining people’s ability to form coherent sentences.

Hey thanks for the info on Kane. Interesting stuff though I think the definition of ‘swipe’ is a bit libral. For me it’s only a swipe if it’s a trace or photoshop job. Looking at pictures of people swinging from ropes and cpying the pose isn’t really a swipe in my mind, it’s research.

But I know others disagree.

Jeez, Aqualad’s getting crotchety in his old age.

Get off my lawn. Freakin kids.

What’s the character issue in issue 7 of Watchmen? 7 and 8 both read like plot issues to me.

What the F does FAIL mean in geek speak? It seems like it’s used as a cross between you’re wrong and you’re stupid, but “fail” means neither. It just looks retarded on the page.

Lukecash,

In 1936 Kane would have been at least 20, possibly 21, if he was born in 1936. And while it’s possible 21 could have been the age of a legal adult at the time with regard to contracts, I am not sure that was the case.

You fail. You fail at what you were doing, which in this case, was being ethical, I suppose. `.`

“In 1936 Kane would have been at least 20, possibly 21, if he was born in 1936.”

Sorry Joe, I i know it’s a typo, but I laughed!

Supes and Lois made sweet love in the Phantom Zone during the Azzarello/Lee run.
That was the first time I had EVER seen it explicitly stated that Supes has sex.

JimmydelaKopin

March 4, 2009 at 11:52 am

So Mackie and Byrne (he who needeth the tightest of leashes) wanted to do away with Parker’s marriage too?

Y’know, it’s bad enough when Mark Evanier jokes about how superhero comics are a lot of books with the same plot…but it’s really bad when there’s a slew of writers who can only write that same plot and can’t handle well-developed characters.
Sheesh… :facepalm:

DazedGenoshan

July 8, 2011 at 3:03 pm

Holy hell! Spiderman has “officially” only been with MJ?!?!? (the Marrow thing is too gross to acknowledge, almost as bad as the, well, basically incest mom/son thing with Maddie and Nate Grey in X-Man) I never knew that until reading this post. I have loved Spiderman since before getting into comics but have only ever been a target/limited collector of his books. Still, considering that in my opinion Parker/Spidey is probably the most physically attractive fictional character ever created… I just always assumed he was getting any tail he set his sights on.

Ok, Peter may not have had sex with Betty Brant in the early years, but there is NO way He was not having sex with Gwen!
(And yes, I also believe he and Betty did sleep together when she and Ned Leeds were separated)
The Marrow thing reminds me of an old joke, about how “the more I drink, the better looking she gets!” Pete must have been REALLY drunk that night!

As awful as Sins Past was, JMS never said Peter was a virgin before MJ…just that he never banged Gwen (which didn’t even make sense within the context of the story itself)…Black Cat is certainly fair game (and, if not, he’s since made up for lost time) among others.

As awful as Sins Past was, JMS never said Peter was a virgin before MJ…just that he never banged Gwen (which didn’t even make sense within the context of the story itself)…Black Cat is certainly fair game (and, if not, he’s since made up for lost time) among others.

He almost certainly slept with the Black Cat and Betty Leeds, but both of those happened after he slept with Mary Jane during the original Clone Saga. So that’s what “virgin before MJ” means. Not virgin before he was married, but virgin before he slept with MJ during the Clone Saga.

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