Comments on: John Seavey's Storytelling Engines: The Simpsons http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/ Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good! Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:32:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Rob III http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685249 Rob III Thu, 25 Sep 2008 01:17:55 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685249 Good stuff Brian, but to respectfully challenge the idea of a "whole new kind of idea" , Get A Life -1990-1992 predates season 5 of the Simpsons. Chris Elliot would frequently die at the end of an episode. I'm also surprised that there was no mention of what I would consider the best example of what you seem to be talking about "The Principal and The Pauper", you know, Skinner isn't really Skinner, but in the end remains Skinner, going so far as a declaration of 'We will never speak of this again'. Good stuff Brian, but to respectfully challenge the idea of a "whole new kind of idea" , Get A Life -1990-1992 predates season 5 of the Simpsons. Chris Elliot would frequently die at the end of an episode.

I'm also surprised that there was no mention of what I would consider the best example of what you seem to be talking about "The Principal and The Pauper", you know, Skinner isn't really Skinner, but in the end remains Skinner, going so far as a declaration of 'We will never speak of this again'.

]]> By: Mike Shields http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685188 Mike Shields Wed, 24 Sep 2008 17:12:57 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685188 Perhaps the reason for no reset button, lies in the fact that the actors and characters do age, and the reality is, you can only move forward by looking back. As it comes to a live action sitcom. The Simpsons has no such restraints. Perhaps the reason for no reset button, lies in the fact that the actors and characters do age, and the reality is, you can only move forward by looking back. As it comes to a live action sitcom. The Simpsons has no such restraints.

]]> By: Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal » Blog Archive » Sept. 24, 2008: Sucked back from the grave! http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685177 Journalista - the news weblog of The Comics Journal » Blog Archive » Sept. 24, 2008: Sucked back from the grave! Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:30:50 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685177 [...] John Seavey explains the “storytelling engine” behind The [...] [...] John Seavey explains the “storytelling engine” behind The [...]

]]> By: Anonymous http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685176 Anonymous Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:26:35 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685176 <i>On the other hand, the fact that the characters can’t age limits the story possibilities. On the Simpsons, this is a problem because the entirety of the cast is either younger than 12 or older than 30; the only exception is Otto, who isn’t exactly an influential character. So when the Simpsons tries to find humor in the issues of teens and twentysomethings, they almost always fail at it.</i> Note that this is one of the reasons Futurama centers around young still-single adults - it's pretty much the one "demographic segment" the Simpsons story engine didn't comfortably accomodate. On "actor aging," one of my favorite bits from SCTV was a documentary about the long-running sitcom "Oh, That Rusty!" A Dennis-the-Menace-like show starring Martin Short, who continues to play the precocious little kid well into his 30s. There are all sorts of funny details, like how they start building oversized sets and recasting, not Rusty, but his parents, as Rusty is adopted by two former basketball players.... On the other hand, the fact that the characters can’t age limits the story possibilities. On the Simpsons, this is a problem because the entirety of the cast is either younger than 12 or older than 30; the only exception is Otto, who isn’t exactly an influential character. So when the Simpsons tries to find humor in the issues of teens and twentysomethings, they almost always fail at it.

Note that this is one of the reasons Futurama centers around young still-single adults - it's pretty much the one "demographic segment" the Simpsons story engine didn't comfortably accomodate.

On "actor aging," one of my favorite bits from SCTV was a documentary about the long-running sitcom "Oh, That Rusty!" A Dennis-the-Menace-like show starring Martin Short, who continues to play the precocious little kid well into his 30s. There are all sorts of funny details, like how they start building oversized sets and recasting, not Rusty, but his parents, as Rusty is adopted by two former basketball players....

]]> By: crood http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685173 crood Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:11:30 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685173 I think you'll find that more family sitcoms are hurt by child actors aging than see benefits from young adult storylines. That's why we get the Cousin Olivers, Andrew Keatons, Chrissy Seavers, and Raven Simones (I can't remember her character name on Cosby). Going further back, you had tweener Cindy Brady still wearing he hair like a 6 year old and Beaver Cleaver who still talked like he was 8 because the shows were trying to stick to their original premise. Family Ties did several early episode with Alex trying for Ivy League schools, but ends up going to a local school in Cleveland. I think you'll find that more family sitcoms are hurt by child actors aging than see benefits from young adult storylines. That's why we get the Cousin Olivers, Andrew Keatons, Chrissy Seavers, and Raven Simones (I can't remember her character name on Cosby). Going further back, you had tweener Cindy Brady still wearing he hair like a 6 year old and Beaver Cleaver who still talked like he was 8 because the shows were trying to stick to their original premise. Family Ties did several early episode with Alex trying for Ivy League schools, but ends up going to a local school in Cleveland.

]]> By: Evan Greene-Terrence http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685169 Evan Greene-Terrence Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:56:35 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685169 "...as a cartoon, the Simpsons have the advantage of not having to worry about actor availability." Tell that to Lionel Hutz, Troy Maclure, etc. "...as a cartoon, the Simpsons have the advantage of not having to worry about actor availability."

Tell that to Lionel Hutz, Troy Maclure, etc.

]]> By: onion3000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685164 onion3000 Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:46:43 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685164 "...Clever things make people feel stupid..." For years, many women have complained (quite vociferously) that 'gorgeous' models in magazines are bad for their gender as a whole, as they represent an unrealistic 'beauty' or 'perfection' image that cannot be lived up to by normal women. My feelings, which are no less valid, are that 'clever' or 'talented' people should be banned from TV and magazines - for making me feel like a clod. How can the man in the street live up to the mental gymnastics of Stephen Hawking? Go Homer! "...Clever things make people feel stupid..."

For years, many women have complained (quite vociferously) that 'gorgeous' models in magazines are bad for their gender as a whole, as they represent an unrealistic 'beauty' or 'perfection' image that cannot be lived up to by normal women. My feelings, which are no less valid, are that 'clever' or 'talented' people should be banned from TV and magazines - for making me feel like a clod. How can the man in the street live up to the mental gymnastics of Stephen Hawking? Go Homer!

]]> By: John Seavey http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685163 John Seavey Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:20:51 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685163 The "sliding timescale" thing is a running gag of the series, actually; they make a point of counting back in years from the current season, even though they've established specific dates for previous flashback episodes. So Bart is born in 1981, in a flashback story set in Season Three, and is two years old in 1984, in a flashback story set in Season Four, and is five in 1990, in a story set in Season Nine. (In fact, in the Season Nine story, they make a point of mentioning that the Tracey Ullman Show is running on Fox. So Bart is both five and ten simultaneously in that episode. :) ) The "sliding timescale" thing is a running gag of the series, actually; they make a point of counting back in years from the current season, even though they've established specific dates for previous flashback episodes. So Bart is born in 1981, in a flashback story set in Season Three, and is two years old in 1984, in a flashback story set in Season Four, and is five in 1990, in a story set in Season Nine. (In fact, in the Season Nine story, they make a point of mentioning that the Tracey Ullman Show is running on Fox. So Bart is both five and ten simultaneously in that episode. :) )

]]> By: Thomas http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685153 Thomas Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:31:08 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685153 I also liked what Fry said in Futurama Clever things make people feel stupid, Unexpected things make people scared, at the end of the episode everything has to be exactly as it was. I'm paraphrasing but you get my point I also liked what Fry said in Futurama

Clever things make people feel stupid, Unexpected things make people scared, at the end of the episode everything has to be exactly as it was.

I'm paraphrasing but you get my point

]]> By: Tom Fitzpatrick http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685147 Tom Fitzpatrick Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:54:18 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685147 "THEY KILLED KENNY!!!!!!!!!!!" Ooops, wrong sitcom. Excuse me. "DON'T HAVE A COW, DUDE!!!" "THEY KILLED KENNY!!!!!!!!!!!"

Ooops, wrong sitcom.
Excuse me.

"DON'T HAVE A COW, DUDE!!!"

]]> By: Daniel O' Dreams http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685144 Daniel O' Dreams Wed, 24 Sep 2008 03:12:41 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685144 Yeah the whole not aging thing has apparently led to a "sliding scale" timeline like Marvel & DC have. I remeber a few seasons ago a flashback to Homer and Marge's highschool years clearly set in the seventies. Recently they had a college flashback set in the 90's! Homer even started a grunge band. This gave me a very strange feeling of unreality (unusual for a cartoon? Not really) but it somehow took me out of the action of the episode. I really feel they went too far. Maybe it's just the realization that Homer and I are now approximately THE SAME AGE! ..DOH! Yeah the whole not aging thing has apparently led to a "sliding scale" timeline like Marvel & DC have. I remeber a few seasons ago a flashback to Homer and Marge's highschool years clearly set in the seventies. Recently they had a college flashback set in the 90's! Homer even started a grunge band. This gave me a very strange feeling of unreality (unusual for a cartoon? Not really) but it somehow took me out of the action of the episode. I really feel they went too far.
Maybe it's just the realization that Homer and I are now approximately THE SAME AGE!
..DOH!

]]> By: Nitz the Bloody http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685123 Nitz the Bloody Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:49:31 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685123 " There’s one other advantage the Simpsons have over the typical family sitcom. Noone ages. They don’t have to worry about Maggie no longer being a cute baby (and do the resulting “Add A Kid”). They don’t have to make up some reason why the smart Lisa has to go to the local community college in order to keep her at home. " On the other hand, the fact that the characters can't age limits the story possibilities. On the Simpsons, this is a problem because the entirety of the cast is either younger than 12 or older than 30; the only exception is Otto, who isn't exactly an influential character. So when the Simpsons tries to find humor in the issues of teens and twentysomethings, they almost always fail at it. Episodes like the one where Lisa pretends to be a college student, Bart starts a T-Shirt business based on his disenfranchisement with his lost youth, etc. have to tackle the subject matter with plots so absurd they often stop being funny and end up just stupid. Not saying that the Simpsons should age the cast, but the dysfunctional 50's family premise isn't nearly as elastic as it used to be, and at this point it's been stretched way too far. " There’s one other advantage the Simpsons have over the typical family sitcom. Noone ages. They don’t have to worry about Maggie no longer being a cute baby (and do the resulting “Add A Kid”). They don’t have to make up some reason why the smart Lisa has to go to the local community college in order to keep her at home. "

On the other hand, the fact that the characters can't age limits the story possibilities. On the Simpsons, this is a problem because the entirety of the cast is either younger than 12 or older than 30; the only exception is Otto, who isn't exactly an influential character. So when the Simpsons tries to find humor in the issues of teens and twentysomethings, they almost always fail at it. Episodes like the one where Lisa pretends to be a college student, Bart starts a T-Shirt business based on his disenfranchisement with his lost youth, etc. have to tackle the subject matter with plots so absurd they often stop being funny and end up just stupid.

Not saying that the Simpsons should age the cast, but the dysfunctional 50's family premise isn't nearly as elastic as it used to be, and at this point it's been stretched way too far.

]]> By: Bernard the Poet http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685096 Bernard the Poet Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:44:42 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685096 I have always been surprised that so few sitcoms do take their ideas as far as they can logically go, and then simply hit the reset button. It was pretty common practice up to the late 'Fifties, but for some reason it died out. Today, most sitcoms take a diametrically opposed position to the Simpsons, and have tight continuity, story arcs and cliff-hanger season finales. Now, I'm not saying that is neccessarily a bad thing, but I am surprised that more sitcoms haven't been tempted to pick up the mantle of looser, zanier predecessors. I have always been surprised that so few sitcoms do take their ideas as far as they can logically go, and then simply hit the reset button. It was pretty common practice up to the late 'Fifties, but for some reason it died out.

Today, most sitcoms take a diametrically opposed position to the Simpsons, and have tight continuity, story arcs and cliff-hanger season finales. Now, I'm not saying that is neccessarily a bad thing, but I am surprised that more sitcoms haven't been tempted to pick up the mantle of looser, zanier predecessors.

]]> By: Nick Marino http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685095 Nick Marino Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:43:22 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685095 this is a rather brilliant observation on the nature of the simpsons. i remember watching "homer loves flanders" the night it first aired and thinking how hilarious the ending was... but i never actually stopped to think how that concept of the simpsons reset button became official at that point. smart stuff, john!! (i would venture to say that the marvel adventures comics -- whether consciously or not -- have borrowed this concept. for example, last week's issue of marvel adventures avengers featured luke cage "joining" the team, but i pretty much assumed that this wasn't concrete enough to become a permanent fixture. therefore i expect next month to find the team pretty much as they were at the beginning of this issue. same with the other mvl adv books -- they'll carry characters thru a couple issues with a bit of continuity, but things pretty much wrap back to their initial state.) this is a rather brilliant observation on the nature of the simpsons. i remember watching "homer loves flanders" the night it first aired and thinking how hilarious the ending was... but i never actually stopped to think how that concept of the simpsons reset button became official at that point. smart stuff, john!! (i would venture to say that the marvel adventures comics -- whether consciously or not -- have borrowed this concept. for example, last week's issue of marvel adventures avengers featured luke cage "joining" the team, but i pretty much assumed that this wasn't concrete enough to become a permanent fixture. therefore i expect next month to find the team pretty much as they were at the beginning of this issue. same with the other mvl adv books -- they'll carry characters thru a couple issues with a bit of continuity, but things pretty much wrap back to their initial state.)

]]> By: crood http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685089 crood Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:16:31 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685089 There's one other advantage the Simpsons have over the typical family sitcom. Noone ages. They don't have to worry about Maggie no longer being a cute baby (and do the resulting "Add A Kid"). They don't have to make up some reason why the smart Lisa has to go to the local community college in order to keep her at home. There's one other advantage the Simpsons have over the typical family sitcom. Noone ages. They don't have to worry about Maggie no longer being a cute baby (and do the resulting "Add A Kid"). They don't have to make up some reason why the smart Lisa has to go to the local community college in order to keep her at home.

]]> By: Thok http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685086 Thok Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:56:57 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685086 <i>It’s funny you should mention ‘The Cosby Show’, since The Simpsons was in the same time slot (Thursdays, 8 PM) back in 1989-1990 time frame. Thanks for another well-written piece.</i> The Simpsons even have a character who is a homage to Cosby in recognition of that conflict (Dr. Hibbert). It’s funny you should mention ‘The Cosby Show’, since The Simpsons was in the same time slot (Thursdays, 8 PM) back in 1989-1990 time frame. Thanks for another well-written piece.

The Simpsons even have a character who is a homage to Cosby in recognition of that conflict (Dr. Hibbert).

]]> By: David http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/09/23/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-the-simpsons/comment-page-1/#comment-685081 David Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:31:15 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=19226#comment-685081 It's funny you should mention 'The Cosby Show', since The Simpsons was in the same time slot (Thursdays, 8 PM) back in 1989-1990 time frame. Thanks for another well-written piece. It's funny you should mention 'The Cosby Show', since The Simpsons was in the same time slot (Thursdays, 8 PM) back in 1989-1990 time frame. Thanks for another well-written piece.

]]>