But I can see some of what Brian is trying to say; if you told me 5 or 6 years ago (hell, a year ago) that Wolverine's illegitimate, long-lost, brainwashed son would be making out one day with Mr. Sinister reincarnated as a woman...

It’s a nerd’s fantasy, chicks throwing themselves at him without him even trying to get them.

It's also a standard device, often for comical effect, used in martial arts films about chaps raised in temples who come out for some mission.
Y'know, they are master expert fighters, but oblivious to women, despite the fact their bodies and skills make them very desirable.

Being a martial artist that came out of nowhere and is ranked as a better fighter than 90% of DC’s established martial artists, including Dick Grayson and Black Canary and Tim Drake, ranked just a notch below Batman and Lady Shiva and who is so good even Richard Dragon is scared to face him in square combat?

Most of them got declared as top-notch martial artists out of nowhere - ie. whenever a writer decided they were - so why not with Connor?
The only reason can be that he was created later on... as I said before, what's wrong with starting him off as an excellent fighter?
Not every story has to have the person start as a clueless beginner learning the ropes.

Hell of a debut, rookie or no.

Well, he's an excellent fighter...

Look what a big deal is made about Roy Harper finally being good enough to make it to the “big leagues,” even after all this time, yet soon as Connor Hawke appears he’s good enough after one adventure with the team?

Different stories by different writers, aiming for different messages and different emotions.

Look at the deal that was made about Kitty Pryde joining the X-men over that of when Forge joined the team... different characters get different stories.

But Conner gets a pass because he actually replaced Ollie, and wasn’t introduced just to be ‘kewl’, he represented a whole new direction.
Draken is just… Wolverines son.
He’s a fan-fic character (kissing another fan-fic character in the above pic).

Connor WAS introduced just to be "kewl." Just because he's tied into Green Arrow rather than someoone overexposed and more fashionable to hate on like Wolverine doesn't change that. Everywhere he goes women fawn over him and want him, without him even trying because he's not even aware of his innate sex appeal? Give me a break. The only thing worse than the fanfic character that can get every woman he wants is the fanfic character that has every woman fawning over him and virtually assaulting without him even trying because he's so naive and oblivious to his natural sex appeal. It's a nerd's fantasy, chicks throwing themselves at him without him even trying to get them.

Being a martial artist that came out of nowhere and is ranked as a better fighter than 90% of DC's established martial artists, including Dick Grayson and Black Canary and Tim Drake, ranked just a notch below Batman and Lady Shiva and who is so good even Richard Dragon is scared to face him in square combat? And treated as a rookie or not, his made it onto the team after one adventure, an adventure where he saved the whole team singlehandedly. Hell of a debut, rookie or no. And he was treated less like a rookie or a joke than, say, established characters like Roy Harper. Look what a big deal is made about Roy Harper finally being good enough to make it to the "big leagues," even after all this time, yet soon as Connor Hawke appears he's good enough after one adventure with the team?

Connor Hawke is just as fanfic a character as Daken.

I really don’t remember much of any rage about Connor Hawke when he first came out. That’s my point, I don’t get why Daken gets all this flak when Connor Hawke was pretty much the same gimmick and is considered a great character. There was even a post here lamenting an issue where it appeared Connor Hawke was killed.

You don't remember rage when Ollie was killed and replaced by a brand new character?
Surely you can at least imagine that there was, even though you missed it right?

Also, despite him saving the JLA and such, he was treated as though he was green (punliscious) until he proved himself.
I know you'll be all 'proved himself??? he burst on the scene and started kicking arse and taking names'... but y'know, so did most heroes when they first started... not everyone has to be Spider-Man.

But Conner gets a pass because he actually replaced Ollie, and wasn't introduced just to be 'kewl', he represented a whole new direction.
Draken is just... Wolverines son.
He's a fan-fic character (kissing another fan-fic character in the above pic).

Wolverine is by contrast one of Marvel's two flagship characters and is in a billion books. Daken's push is just affecting more of the line and more people's opinions because it's shoved in people's face more. I think more people are buying Wolverine solo books now than have probably ever cared about Connor Hawke either way in that character's entire existence, and Wolverine's solo stuff isn't what it used to be.

I think Connor Hawke gets a pass and Daken doesn’t because most of the rage about Connor expired once Oliver Queen was no longer dead and clearly the Real Protagonist again. Connor was relegated to sidekick status, and isn’t he… dead or something now? If he’s not, he’s probably been swept under the rug.

I really don't remember much of any rage about Connor Hawke when he first came out. That's my point, I don't get why Daken gets all this flak when Connor Hawke was pretty much the same gimmick and is considered a great character. There was even a post here lamenting an issue where it appeared Connor Hawke was killed.

Sure Daken is getting put in two major series as a villain, but crap, Connor Hawke got to headline the Green Arrow book as the new Green Arrow and even joined the JLA for a bit and was responsible for saving the whole team. Only a few years after being introduced! We had stories where Batman, Nightwing and Robin were marveling at how close in martial arts skill level to Batman Connor Hawke was (and better than Nightwing and Robin he was). I think shiva even wanted to make him a protege or something because he was just so damn awesome. Don't get me wrong, Daken is totally lame too, I just don't get why no one noticed this about Connor Hawke when he was introduced in the 90s and a few of us were making the exact same complaints about him.

Meanwhile, Daken is starring in two major, current, ongoing Wolverine-centric stories as the Most Importantest Villain Evar, and so ire about that is probably going to last exactly as long as it takes editorial to kill/depower/get rid of Daken. I know Connor Hawke had fans back in the day, which helped put off Ollie's return a few years-- are there any Daken fans? Does anyone like this guy? If so I could at least understand why Marvel was ignoring all the complaints and plowing ahead with his stories.

"Is Daken is last, first, or code name?"

I think it's just "Daken." Like "Logan" only Dakier. And less Logey.

"At least it’s not X-23…cause that’d be sorta incestuous right?"

Miss Sinister and X-23 hooking up? Now THAT'S a comic!

And I had the exact opposite reaction as owen gieni - if they changed that ridicuolous haircut, I'd be much happier about him appearing in books I read. He didn't seem too bad the way he was portrayed in Legacy, but he looks so silly! Even just give him a proper mohawk instead of that floppy horse's mane he's got.

As for his codename, how about Weapon-Why?

Is Daken is last, first, or code name? Pretty lame either way, I guess.

I agree with Aaron. While I admit that Green Arrow is lame to begin with, Connor Hawke was at least much more tolerable than Oliver Queen. Daken however is a cliched cliche of a cliche. He’s an evil version of Wolverine, but wait, he’s ALSO his long lost son, but wait, he’s also been BRAINWASHED… by a secret government agency!

I think Connor is just as much a cliche as Daken, except since Daken is tied to Wolverine, who is much more overexposed and popular and cool to hate on, he gets called on it more, He's an archer too (double of his dad like Daken), long lost son, not brainwashed by...raised to be a superninja on par with Batman's skill level by living with monks in a monastery like Cain from Kung Fu! Holy Shaolin!! He's just as cheesy and cliched. If he had the exact same origin, but as Wolverine's son instead of Green Arrow's, had Wolverinish hair instead of Green Arrow's blond hair and bone claws, he'd be treated just like Daken. I'm not saying Daken isn't lame, I just never understand why Connor Hawke gets a pass. He's always been a lame Daken-type to me since his conception too.

Connor Hawke has weird hair? Apparently to T., blond and gelled is “weird” rather than “what teenagers have been doing for 15 years and going.”

When you're that dark, yes, platinum blonde hair is pretty weird. In fact, even weirder than it is for Daken since it's natural and not a dye job.

Yes. How dare Carey and Way try to establish new characters instead of giving us the same plots we’ve all been tired of for years and years.

The irony of this statement is just killing me. New characters? Where?

Anyone have a better codename for him? Sabertooth 2 works for me, even Rascal is better than grimdark Daken.

And yeah I'm not an X-person, so I am totally lost on who Miss Sinister is and on how Xavier got some of his powers back. The last X-book I read was Deadly Genesis. (My cousin does ask me to pick up Origins for him though so I do get my monthly dose of awfulness.)

"Yes. How dare Carey and Way try to establish new characters instead of giving us the same plots we’ve all been tired of for years and years."--What are you even talking about? They just killed a guy and brought him back as a chick, and made up some dumb freaking kid for Wolverine. Grant Morrison's New X-Men was original. This bullsh*t's as tired and similar as a McCain presidency.

"He’s an evil version of Wolverine, but wait, he’s ALSO his long lost son, but wait, he’s also been BRAINWASHED… by a secret government agency!"--And most importantly, any character based at all off of Wolverine in any way is, by definition, a cliche.