Comments on: A Month of Good LGBT Comics Archive

By: Curb Side » And Little Comics, all in a Row

Curb Side » And Little Comics, all in a Row — Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:47:25 +0000

[...] is pretty late, but as I was inspired by the recent month-long list of Good LGBT Comics on the Comic Book Resources site (see posting below), I thought I would post a quick roundup of [...]

By: Comics Should Be Good! » A Month of Good LGBT Comics - Jane’s World

Comics Should Be Good! » A Month of Good LGBT Comics - Jane’s World — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:24:17 +0000

[...] Here’s an archive of the featured works so far! [...]

By: News of the Right » Blog Archive » That’s My Bag

News of the Right » Blog Archive » That’s My Bag — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:14:28 +0000

[...] Comics Should be Good! has a month of LGBTQ comics that are “must read”. Check them out here! Megan Rose Gedris, who is a talented and sweet young woman-who-loves-women, made the list and [...]

By: ramartins

ramartins — Mon, 24 Nov 2008 04:39:15 +0000

ha! offensive comments are just ten years ago/ten years old kids...

By: Alex M.

Alex M. — Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:53:07 +0000

I really regret scrolling this far down the page

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:59:12 +0000

I'm not making anymore comments. I just emailed Brian and gave him my thoughts.

By: MarkAndrew

MarkAndrew — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:57:56 +0000

We've laughed, we've loved, we've learned that all comic book readers are fags and also stupid. (Or possibly someone hasn't learned the Other, not-fourth-grade meaning of "gay," I dunno.) Then we veered wildly off-topic and said some things that I agree with in such a way that makes me feel preemptively stupid. Good feature, and I'm sorry I doubted it'd hit thirty. But this is asinine. Maybe comments should go off?

By: Brian Cronin

Brian Cronin — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:23:09 +0000

so if people still donâ€™t get it, then I give upâ€¦!

Please tell me that's a promise.

By: Joe Shmoe

Joe Shmoe — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 18:59:34 +0000

Wow. Sorry Pam, I'll send you a Kleenex. Listen, I REALLY can't keep making these postings. Luckily I have a day off work today, though...so here I go again. First of all, it's not just bitterness and vitriol; it's the truth of the situation. Just dismissing my valid points as bitterness and vitriol without actually addressing them is nothing but a cop-out. Not that it's your job to address them...but SOMEBODY should. Should that somebody be me, as you suggest? Not necessarily. I'm not a professional writer, artist, editor or publisher. And to answer your point specifically about me doing my own book--even if I was a pro--I can only elaborate on what I said in one of my comments above: There are very few OPPORTUNITIES for individual creators to do truly innovative work because the companies that have the money to support those types of projects DON'T PAY PROFESSIONAL-LEVEL PAGE-RATES FOR CREATOR-OWNED MATERIAL. So NO ONE who has anything with any potential value to offer is going to do it for Marvel or DC, knowing that those companies are going to take it away from them! And unfortunately, since most artists and writers are not independently wealthy, they have to spend most of their time actually EARNING A LIVING--which doesn't leave them with anywhere near the amount of time they would need to do a really top-level creator-owned comic that would have a chance of succeeding in the popular marketplace. Also, individual creators don't have the kind of marketing and promotional resources that are essential to doing a successful book. The big companies do, but they, understandably (from their corporate point of view), aren't interested in paying for creator-owned work. So it's a nearly impossible Catch-22 situation, and that's why we get nothing but regurgitated work-for-hire trash from the big companies. Whew! That's about as clear as I can make it, so if people still don't get it, then I give up...!

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:43:55 +0000

Actually I was laughing when I made that last post...but, Joe! You're coming at us all pretty harsh.
Granted, the latest generation didn't grow up with the same comics we did...their perceptions and life stories behind why they got so addicted to comics is much different, and there may well be a dark age in comics at present, as you say...but.....
Listen to me. If you know comics as well as you say you do, you know the criteria, you know the formula, you know what makes comics good, you know what a good story is about: so WHY DON'T YOU DO YOUR OWN SERIES? Or, failing that, publish a how-to for the next generation to build their fledgling skills on.
But all this bitterness and vitriol isn't helping anyone. I think after your last post I got spittle in my eye............

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:33:28 +0000

Quote: "Which brings me to another point: todays comics are made by very insecure people who are probably quite ashamed, on some level, of doing comics, and that is why so many of them go out of their way to do comics THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE COMICS."

!!!!!!! Joe Schmoe!!! OMG!!! STFU!!!!

By: Joe Shmoe

Joe Shmoe — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:59:19 +0000

Sage: First of all, I do not like Vertigo comics. In my view they are pretentious, sophomoric nonsense that very often crosses the bounds of good taste. Secondly, I do not hold to the view that ALL old comics were great. I do, however, believe that they were GENERALLY produced to a higher standard of professionalism than today's comics. And by that I am not referring to the production values; I am referring to the editorial/scripting standards. The comics of yesteryear more commonly featured SELF-CONTAINED, stan-alone, readable stories that were accessible to the GENERAL AUDIENCE, as opposed to today's superhero comics, which are accessible (that is,understandable) to NO ONE EXCEPT FANBOYS. Why is that? Because the stories in modern superhero comics ARE NOT STORIES. Proper stories have a STRUCTURE: beginning, middle and END. They also have a POINT. Today's comics have none of those qualities. They are just an endless sequence of SELF-REFERENTIAL continuity--like bad soap-operas (is there any other kind?). Thirdly, the sad fact is that kids today do NOT read comics--because the publishers have driven them all away--and most of the ADULTS, too--in favor of an audience of die-hard fanatics who are more interested in CONTINUITY than they are in reading GOOD STORIES that are told effectively by writers and artists who know their medium and are not afraid to use it. Which brings me to another point: todays comics are made by very insecure people who are probably quite ashamed, on some level, of doing comics, and that is why so many of them go out of their way to do comics THAT DON'T LOOK LIKE COMICS. And by that I mean that they have an aversion to using proven storytelling devices like third-person narrative captions, thought balloons and sometimes even sound-effects, out of fear that their work will be branded as "comic-booky." Well, if they're that ashamed of comics, why are they doing them in the first place?! Fourthly, maybe todays writers and artists should try coming up with some NEW characters that can stand alongside the old ones. If today's "hot" talents are so great, why are we still seeing comics that feature, almost totally, characters that were created from the 1930s to the 1970s? I'll TELL you why. Because the so-called "talent" that has come along since then is not talent at all. And if it was, we'd be reading about their characters and not about characters created thirty to seventy years ago by men who had REAL talent. Lastly, Sage, I'm sorry if my comments make you feel sad, but I don't see how you can maintain that all I've done is complain without offering any constructive criticism. That is clearly not the case. Yes, I have complained quite bitterly, but that is only because people DO NOT LISTEN when I, and others like me, DO offer constructive criticism. So if you want to read Green Lantern or any other piece of modern DC or Marvel crap, that is your right, but I will certainly not be joining you in that labor, and I certainly WILL continue "complaining"--that is, speaking THE TRUTH!

By: SageShini

SageShini — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:42:27 +0000

Some of these LGBT comics haven't been bad.

The comments though, as usual, make me sad. Joe Shmoe sounds like a typical, "I'm too smart/noncomformist for superhero comics" cliche. Which breaks down into:

A.) Trendy, I only read indy and/or Vertigo "graphic novels" (because "only kids read comics") guy

B.) "WHY AREN'T COMICS LIKE THEY WERE DURING THE 60's/70's/80's?!?!?! THEY'RE NOT COOL ANYMORE SO I'M JUST GOING TO SPEND ALL MY TIME COMPLAINING INSTEAD OF OFFERING ANY KIND OF CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM TO MAKE THINGS BETTER!!!!!"

Granted, I'm not expect a reasonable response to this where you explain how you're not either one of those, but I AM expecting you to call me a "kool-aid drinking fanboy" or some such nonsense.

I'm off to check out the rest of the LGBT comics that've been posted, then off to read some *gasp* MAINSTREAM comics. (Oh no! I'm reading Green Lantern! I clearly have no standards. )

By: Joe Shmoe

Joe Shmoe — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 11:10:07 +0000

Pam, your artwork looks pretty good, and if it is your dream to pursue a career as a comic book creator, you should keep at it. I understand exactly what you're talking about when you say how DC's standards were "so strict and so exacting". That's a good example of what I'm talking about. The Big Two have always had "standards" that demand conformity and stifle individual creative freedom, which seems to me to be incredibly counter-productive in a (supposedly) creative medium like comics! It leaves many of the most talented people without the resources to do the kind of high-quality, original work they're capable of, and that leaves the comics industry a lot poorer as a result.

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:27:39 +0000

Joe, this page (and the subsequent ones after it) are intentionally left rough because one of the main characters is a sketch artist.
http://comics.drunkduck.com/House_of_the_Muses_3/pages/adc3d5b41f2d875d2910859087ff6e48.jpg

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:18:51 +0000

Anyone mind if I show off a bit? Then I'm going to go check out the rest of Brian Cronin's LGBT Archive.

http://comics.drunkduck.com/House_of_the_Muses_clips_previews_and_outtakes/pages/7bf9beae4367febf15b31beec99723da.jpg

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:50:18 +0000

You're right--from The Forever People in the late 60's-early 70's to all his present time work, Jack Kirby is indeed one of the all-time greatest comic artists.
The rise of independent comic companies has been a two-edged sword: on the one hand, it has given countless artists the chance to get their works seen by an accepting audience and over time it is now easier than ever before. On the other hand, I had a really hard time getting accepted by DC Comics back in the 80s because their standards were so strict and so exacting. When Dick Giordano stood right next to me at a comic store event, looked over my Wonder Woman pencils and told me to submit them to DC, my feet didn't touch ground for a week.
Of course, there were other things going on in my life that prevented my career at DC, but that's another story....
There really needs to be some criteria that forces artists to be the absolute best they can be. Yet, the two-edged sword again, the independents have created more artists than ever before, and with the vast glut of stories on the market there is more emphasis on saleability than on excellence. Have to give you that.
Yet we're chatting on this topic over LGBT comics, which honestly simply because they are labeled LGBT have not been given their time in the spotlight, and if not for this generous Comic Book Resources spotlight series, might not have gotten quite their fair share of attention due.
I hope they get considerably more fans because of this attention.

By: Joe Shmoe

Joe Shmoe — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:28:22 +0000

Hi Pam. Thanks for your gracious response to my rant. You are clearly a more temperate and sensitive individual than I am. I'm not one for starting forums, as I don't have a whole lot of time to spend on these websites, but upon hitting the link you posted above, I noticed one commentator I agreed with: the first one--who weighed in on the subject of Jack Kirby, whom I consider to be EASILY the greatest talent ever to work in the comics medium. Was his stuff perfect? No, far from it. But in spite of its flaws it was still the most creative, inspiring, and compelling work that anyone in comics has ever done. Above all else, Kirby understood the importance of individual self-expression when attempting to create superior work. And that is the quality which is so lacking in today's superhero comics from Marvel and DC. They have absolutely no soul or spark of individuality. What they are is corporate, anally-retentive, fanboy-oriented, continuity-obsessive, unoriginal, unprofessional, sophomoric, pretentious, computer-generated, comics-by-comittee, spandex-soap-opera junk. Marvel and DC have completely forgotten that their characters were originally created to appeal TO THE MASSES, not to an exclusivist, ever-shrinking club of in-bred fanatics (a.k.a. FANBOYS). I certainly don't expect most of the readers of CBR blogs to agree with me on this point, but in my view, what comics need to survive and FLOURISH is a renewed commitment to the kind of individual creative energy, professionalism, dignity, and passion for superior storytelling that was exemplified in the work of Jack Kirby and many of his compatriots from the early days of comics--such as Will Eisner, Carl Barks, Bill Everett and others. This can only come through a concerted FINANCIAL INVESTMENT on the part of the big publishers in (>gasp<) CREATOR-OWNED comics. Sort of like what Eclipse and a few others briefly attempted to do in the late '70s/early '80s. Without such a commitment, I think we're unlikely to ever see comics in America achieve their full potential, since there will be no sustaining monetary incentive for mature, accomplished creators to put forth their BEST CREATIVE EFFORTS. They will have to continue spending their time doing other, less compelling "commercial" work just to make a living. In other words, the kind of situation we have today! I could go on forever on this subject, but that's my feeling in a nutshell, and it's what I truly believe--so I hope you liked it!

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:59:42 +0000

Better still...let me check around here and see if we can't make a forum for that. Maybe we could team up and do some constructive venting as well as provide an example for the young fanboy whippersnappers out there.
Why don't we start a forum on this at http://forums.comicbookresources.com/forumdisplay.php?f=61 and pull in some more opinions?

By: Pam Harrison

Pam Harrison — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 03:38:57 +0000

Well, your comments are valid. It's true, comics aren't like they were when I was a teen, certainly. I just got excited last week when I scored several early issues of The Warlord from 1976.
I used to love those comics and kept my eyes out for comics with the same dash and excitement. I hope to see a new revolution in storywriting, illustration and style in the months to come.
Since you're an old time comics reader, as I am, what were some of your favorites? What made these stories real for you and what would you LIKE to see in comics in the future?