Comments on: John Seavey's Storytelling Engines: Indiana Jones http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/ Comic Book Resources Presents... Comics Should Be Good! Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:44:45 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: T. http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691810 T. Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:03:49 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691810 Great piece. Great piece.

]]> By: John Seavey http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691805 John Seavey Sat, 15 Nov 2008 16:51:39 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691805 I don't disagree, exactly, but I do think that it was better-used in "Raiders" than in the sequels. In the original film, Indy was not meant to be wholly sympathetic at the start; he was a disreputable sort, a grave-robber and an artifact-stealer who passed himself off as an archaeologist while having lost sight of his goals of preserving lost civilizations. His flight from the natives in "Raiders" can be seen very easily not as a white man fleeing savages, but as a thief fleeing the rightful (and vengeful) owners. It was a scene designed to make you appreciate Indy's skills, while not necessarily sympathizing with his attitudes. The arc of the film (as opposed to the Ark of the film) was about Indy learning that he had to respect the cultures that produced these treasures, and leave them undisturbed. The sequels handled the "native" tropes much worse, to the nadir of "Crystal Skull" which had sub-human, grunting primitives show up near the end for a pointless chase scene. (And yes, had the von Daaniken "aliens built those temples" schtick which I've always hated.) So I think we're pretty much in agreement, but I do think that some of the material that was problematic was, in fact, necessary to make "Raiders" work. Not much, but some. I don't disagree, exactly, but I do think that it was better-used in "Raiders" than in the sequels. In the original film, Indy was not meant to be wholly sympathetic at the start; he was a disreputable sort, a grave-robber and an artifact-stealer who passed himself off as an archaeologist while having lost sight of his goals of preserving lost civilizations. His flight from the natives in "Raiders" can be seen very easily not as a white man fleeing savages, but as a thief fleeing the rightful (and vengeful) owners. It was a scene designed to make you appreciate Indy's skills, while not necessarily sympathizing with his attitudes. The arc of the film (as opposed to the Ark of the film) was about Indy learning that he had to respect the cultures that produced these treasures, and leave them undisturbed.

The sequels handled the "native" tropes much worse, to the nadir of "Crystal Skull" which had sub-human, grunting primitives show up near the end for a pointless chase scene. (And yes, had the von Daaniken "aliens built those temples" schtick which I've always hated.)

So I think we're pretty much in agreement, but I do think that some of the material that was problematic was, in fact, necessary to make "Raiders" work. Not much, but some.

]]> By: Rob Schmidt http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691721 Rob Schmidt Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:55:17 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691721 Spielberg and Lucas should've abandoned the "unfriendly natives" trope in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and the sequels. It was racist and wasn't necessary to make the films work. I've written about this at "Indiana Jones and the Stereotypes of Doom" (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/indy.htm). Spielberg and Lucas should've abandoned the "unfriendly natives" trope in "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and the sequels. It was racist and wasn't necessary to make the films work. I've written about this at "Indiana Jones and the Stereotypes of Doom" (http://www.bluecorncomics.com/indy.htm).

]]> By: John Seavey http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691654 John Seavey Fri, 14 Nov 2008 02:22:41 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691654 The short answer: No, it's "Raiders of the Lost Ark", just like it's "Star Wars". :) The short answer: No, it's "Raiders of the Lost Ark", just like it's "Star Wars". :)

]]> By: SKFK http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691610 SKFK Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:46:26 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691610 "they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn’t find any Nazis?" My understanding is that Spielberg just cannot find it in himself to make any more movies with cartoonish Nazi villains after he made Schindler's List. "they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn’t find any Nazis?"

My understanding is that Spielberg just cannot find it in himself to make any more movies with cartoonish Nazi villains after he made Schindler's List.

]]> By: Scavenger http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691478 Scavenger Wed, 12 Nov 2008 22:05:43 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691478 "the fourth Indiana Jones movie essentially tries to invent a brand-new storytelling engine built on the principles of the original, but using the tropes of 50s science-fiction films instead of 30s pulp films" I suddenly like Crystal Skull a lot more than I did. "the fourth Indiana Jones movie essentially tries to invent a brand-new storytelling engine built on the principles of the original, but using the tropes of 50s science-fiction films instead of 30s pulp films"

I suddenly like Crystal Skull a lot more than I did.

]]> By: Stephen http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691413 Stephen Wed, 12 Nov 2008 17:20:03 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691413 "By the way does anyone refer to Raiders, by the DVD title?" No, but I suspect that's out of expediency's sake more than anything else (and having a unified title scheme for all the movies isn't a big deal anyway). Everyone calls the sequels simply "Temple of Doom" and "Last Crusade" even those have never really been their "official" titles. "they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn’t find any Nazis?" Heh. Wasn't the the supposed plotline to the third SCUMM game that never got released due to Germany getting antsy about the use of Nazis as the bad guys and LucasArts deciding that it wasn't worth the money if they lost one of their biggest markets? I wasn't thrilled with Crystal Skull, but it holds up pretty well on a second viewing... which is more than I can say for Temple of Doom, which has a great first ten minutes, a great last twenty minutes, and then is just nothing worthwhile in between. Temple of Doom really does feel like all the bits too lame to make it into Raiders being re-purposed for a new movie - which is basically what happened. "By the way does anyone refer to Raiders, by the DVD title?"

No, but I suspect that's out of expediency's sake more than anything else (and having a unified title scheme for all the movies isn't a big deal anyway). Everyone calls the sequels simply "Temple of Doom" and "Last Crusade" even those have never really been their "official" titles.

"they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn’t find any Nazis?"

Heh. Wasn't the the supposed plotline to the third SCUMM game that never got released due to Germany getting antsy about the use of Nazis as the bad guys and LucasArts deciding that it wasn't worth the money if they lost one of their biggest markets?

I wasn't thrilled with Crystal Skull, but it holds up pretty well on a second viewing... which is more than I can say for Temple of Doom, which has a great first ten minutes, a great last twenty minutes, and then is just nothing worthwhile in between. Temple of Doom really does feel like all the bits too lame to make it into Raiders being re-purposed for a new movie - which is basically what happened.

]]> By: Carl http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691368 Carl Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:28:07 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691368 By the way does anyone refer to Raiders, by the DVD title? By the way does anyone refer to Raiders, by the DVD title?

]]> By: Carl http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691367 Carl Wed, 12 Nov 2008 14:27:02 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691367 While I haven't seen Crystal Skull (mainly due to lack of time from being a parent), I can only compare the first 3. Temple of Doom varied on two counts. First, it was considerably darker than Raiders and Last Crusade. Second, Indy's "team" simply wasn't as strong. Marion and Henry Sr. are much better supporting characters than Willie and Short Round. They can trade barbs with the hero on an equal footing and then turn around and be supportive. There's shared history with Indy that makes it work. They know he gets by on a lot of luck. Other than a plot point, there's no real reason he didn't just dump Willie at the airport. While I haven't seen Crystal Skull (mainly due to lack of time from being a parent), I can only compare the first 3. Temple of Doom varied on two counts. First, it was considerably darker than Raiders and Last Crusade. Second, Indy's "team" simply wasn't as strong. Marion and Henry Sr. are much better supporting characters than Willie and Short Round. They can trade barbs with the hero on an equal footing and then turn around and be supportive. There's shared history with Indy that makes it work. They know he gets by on a lot of luck. Other than a plot point, there's no real reason he didn't just dump Willie at the airport.

]]> By: E. Martín http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691341 E. Martín Wed, 12 Nov 2008 12:00:12 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691341 I don't think the problems of Indy 2 and Indy 4 come mainly from a bad storytelling engine but simply from bad directing and even worse writing. In fact I think Indy 2 works quite well up to the crushing underground trap. I don't think the problems of Indy 2 and Indy 4 come mainly from a bad storytelling engine but simply from bad directing and even worse writing. In fact I think Indy 2 works quite well up to the crushing underground trap.

]]> By: Dunc http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691336 Dunc Wed, 12 Nov 2008 10:55:36 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691336 Great article. But the problem with Crystal Skull wasn't the implementation of a new engine, it was the attempts to combine them both. Indiana Jones versus a full-on saucer men invasion would have been a GREAT film, and it would have given the Brando stuff a much better context. Indiana Jones in a half-hearted attempt to stick fifties tropes onto their pulp engine, less of an exciting film. Great article.
But the problem with Crystal Skull wasn't the implementation of a new engine, it was the attempts to combine them both. Indiana Jones versus a full-on saucer men invasion would have been a GREAT film, and it would have given the Brando stuff a much better context.
Indiana Jones in a half-hearted attempt to stick fifties tropes onto their pulp engine, less of an exciting film.

]]> By: Jono11 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691220 Jono11 Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:06:20 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691220 They should have just made another 30s-style adventure movie, set in the 50s. Is it really THAT wild-wacky-crazy of an idea? Go with what works. They should have just made another 30s-style adventure movie, set in the 50s. Is it really THAT wild-wacky-crazy of an idea? Go with what works.

]]> By: Justin http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691138 Justin Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:35:54 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691138 I am of the mind that they should have just made "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars" (as was supposedly one of the original ideas) and make a ridiculous 50s sci-fi movie with big-budget production values in the same way that Raiders was a 30s adventure movie with big-budget production values. I didn't think the "ancient astronauts" hypothesis was common enough in the 50s for that storyline to work. I am of the mind that they should have just made "Indiana Jones and the Saucer Men from Mars" (as was supposedly one of the original ideas) and make a ridiculous 50s sci-fi movie with big-budget production values in the same way that Raiders was a 30s adventure movie with big-budget production values. I didn't think the "ancient astronauts" hypothesis was common enough in the 50s for that storyline to work.

]]> By: The Fiendish Dr. Samsara http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691135 The Fiendish Dr. Samsara Tue, 11 Nov 2008 19:13:29 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691135 "...perhaps it was just because Crash Corrigan was more fun than Flash Gordon..." I know this is nit-picky, but Flash Gordon is from the 30's, not the 50's (although it did run that long). "...perhaps it was just because Crash Corrigan was more fun than Flash Gordon..."

I know this is nit-picky, but Flash Gordon is from the 30's, not the 50's (although it did run that long).

]]> By: jj http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2008/11/11/john-seaveys-storytelling-engines-indiana-jones/comment-page-1/#comment-691133 jj Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:53:09 +0000 http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/?p=20341#comment-691133 they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn't find any Nazis? because that's the other thing fans love: Nazis getting their comeuppance. they should have had Nazis in the 4th movie. South America in the 1950s, and they couldn't find any Nazis?

because that's the other thing fans love: Nazis getting their comeuppance.

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