Most (not all) of the arguments about this seem to be that the “spirit” of the Legion was ruined by the book, and I can understand that POV. But, as I said, this really demonstrates the dilemma of any long-running comic book (or soap opera, for that matter.) Fans bitch that nothing ever changes- and then, when it does, they bitch that the characters aren’t the way they always were. Like any fan, I can get upset when characters seem mischaracterized or changed for the sake of change (Emerald Twilight is my best example), but I also understand that the nature of this business is going to HAVE to be one of revamp every decade or so. “My” Superman was Byrne’s Superman.Byrne’s Superman annoyed old-timers’ Superman. Understood. And I have no right to bitch that Superman has been revamped again if I’m going to defend Byrne’s approach. However, I am disheartened to see that the latest “revamps” are not new takes on a character, but retreads. The new old LSH thrills some people, but I wonder why? If the threeboot wasn’t working for people (it worked for me), than try a new 4boot. But going back is never going forward, as far as I’m concerned (incidentally, that’s why I didn’t care for the reboot, either- felt like old stories in new clothing.) If you don’t like Byrne’s Superman, do something modern with him- but redoing old Silver Age stories really IS “fanboys gone wild.” Same as bringing back Barry Allen, same as retconning Wonder Woman back in the original JLA for no apparent reason. As fans, we need to embrace change. I just feel like looking forward is better than looking back.

Sermon over.

I am aware of that. As I stated, I would have preferred if the cutoff was the end of Levitz’ reign. They chose to place it earlier (circa Crisis on Infinite Earths), which makes sense as it was the start of all the trouble. But the appearance of Rond as a Lantern shows that certain elements that were revealed *after* Crisis are still a part of these guys’ universe, which is fine by me.

Now, it’ll be a bad sign if I ever see Kent Shakespeare again…

Around issues 35-40, i became tired of it and dropped it. i hated how the Legion had won the war against the Dominators that we had seen hints of through the whole series, only to have the earth blow up. That angered me and pushed me to drop the book. However, the first 2 years of it were very interesting to me, especially the mix of dystopian future and weary optimism of the returning Legion.

i also hated the Annual which revealed that Proty had taken the place of Lightning Lad and turning Element Lad’s relationship into a gender bending quadrangle or whatever the hell they were trying to do.

So, i really enjoyed the first 2 years of it, then felt it really deteriorated into junk.

I do not think the quality of the Five years later Legion had anything to do with the Zero Hour reboot or subsequent reboots. DC as a company likes reboots. The histories of some characters (eg. Hawkman, Power Girl, and Supergirl) and teams (e.g. Legion) are confusing and complicated because DC only gives lip service to continuity.

Ha! Better that, than the sad Archie Legion.

Unfortunately, the same thing is happening to the James Bond franchise now: “Hey, let’s add a bunch of grim and gritty nihilism to the series so that we can finally admit how embarrassing it was to have all those go-go fun super-hero antics for all those years. There, now we’ve proven that we’re more mature than all those silly writers that came before us! Great! Hey, where’d the fans go? Oh, wait, I guess that, in proving how cool we are, we accidentally ripped out the beating heart of the franchise. Whoops.”

The problem with the Giffen-Bierbaum era was that they didn’t just write bad stories, they went further and poisoned the well of Legion history. After they were finally fired, the only solution was to wipe away all that history and start over, but history was such a huge part of the Legion’s appeal that future writers had too little to work with.

The Legion was the backbone of my collection for many years. I first got hooked by DC Comics Presents #59. (I was already an Ambush Bug fan – this was my entrance into the world of the Legion.) I became so enamored of the Legion that it actually pulled me into general comics collecting, something that Atari Force, Groo and Ambush Bug had failed to do. The day I walked into my local comic shop and said “take the Legion off my list”, you could hear a pin drop. That was around issue 10 of the Giffen/Bierbaum run. I just hated it.

I had given it a chance, but had disliked the whole “gritty” look from issue 1. Now, I realize that they were saddled with directives from on high that led to the whole rebooting of the universe a few issues in, but I then hated what they did with the opportunity, usually going for something significantly less than what had come before. (Of course, I would later thank them for that reset, because it made it clear that these weren’t the same people I had been reading about anyway, so who cares what happens to them?)

A perfect example is the aforementioned Brainy/Laurel Gand thing. The original Brainy/Supergirl romance was a lovely, unrequited love that had this poignant end to it because of Supergirl’s death (and Brainy’s foreknowledge of it). Lovely. Perfect. Replaced by a by-the-numbers romance gone bad. Boring.

I was also amused to see someone highlighting Roxxas. I was going through an old sketch book of mine a few weeks ago and came across a drawing I did of the Joker. At *some* point after drawing it, I had written a couple of pretend comments from an art editor on it – “Looks too much like Giffen’s Roxxas” – “You’re right. It’s crap.”

I should also point out that I found this to be Giffen’s worst artistic period. The faux MacGuire period, I call it. (Look at the pursed lips – you’ll see what I’m talking about.) Wa-a-a-a-ay over-the-top on all the designs, buckles everywhere. Yuck.

I never gave up completely on the Legion. I tried Legionnaires (a nice attempt to fix what they had broken, but too little too late). I tried the “reboot” Legion. I tried Legion Lost. I tried the “Threeboot”. All left me cold. These weren’t “the” Legion, just various riffs on the theme.

But I was intrigued enough by the return of Jim Shooter to give the most recent series another try and I loved it. Sure, they weren’t the “real” Legion, but at least Shooter was telling stories that seemed more in line with what had come before. No “Live Wire”. No cultists.

But I was absolutely over the moon at the return of the real Legion in the “Lightning Saga”. Sure, it’s not quite the same as picking up right where Paul Levitz left off (as I would have preferred), but anything it takes to amputate and cauterize the “Five Years Later” is a worthy sacrifice. (Though it’s obviously not *all* gone. Rond Vidar as Green Lantern proves that.)

“All that is to say is – while I can see why the direction that was taken seemed abrupt and unnecessary at the time, what did come out of it was some really good stuff. ”

Abrupt, unnecessary and going against everything the Legion had been about (primarily optimism) since its inception. It would be like telling gritty sexually-charged stories with Archie and the gang. You might get some good stories out of it, but it would be totally inappropriate.

“And we have had other fanboys writing since then including Devin Grayson, Phil Jimenez, Kevin Smith, to name a few off the top of my head, all of whom continually get work.”

But, notably, not the Bierbaums. (And, really, did Kevin Smith get that job because he was a fan? And I do belive Phil Jimenez broke in as an artist and earned the writing job like any artist-turned-writer. I know nothing of Devin Grayson.) I have to believe that the Bierbaum’s lack of work is not by choice, as they tried to keep up a comics career after Legion, but couldn’t sustain it. They weren’t very good from the start, but at least when they were backed up by Giffen (T.H.U.N.D.E.R., Legion, Heckler), they could hold a story together. By themselves, they were incoherent.

Okay, that’s enough. I know there are plenty of fans of that era, so I won’t go on. (I could!) Suffice to say that there is plenty of justifiable discontent with that era and fans should shoulder it with more grace. If you like something, you shouldn’t need to get all worked up when someone else dislikes it, no matter how intensely. (The reverse is also true, of course.)

That’s all, kids. I’m out.

Yes, the Bierbaum’s could be accused of writing fan-fic, but so what? They were employed to co-write the series with Giffen, and offered up ideas that had been gestating in Legion fandom for years previous (and if you want to take task with anyone, it should be Giffen as he ran with their ideas – and took full personal responsibility in the letter columns).

Personally, I haven’t looked forward to a next issue as much since.

I believe Dan is British.

I thought the Black Panthers were known in Britain, too, but maybe not!

I am indeed British, so that’s my excuse. That said I’ve just done a straw pole of the three people sat nearest to me at work and they’ve all heard of the Black Panthers so maybe it’s me after all…

So I did – all the way back to LSH V3 #24 – #63 and LSH V4 #1 – #38 (whichever one where the Earth explodes). Ya know what? Read continuously over the course of a month I got to really enjoy those stories. The art still doesn’t do it for me tho I got why that style was used. But the stories themselves were very adult and complex and real – which is exactly what the Legion was all about. Well, that and galaxy-spanning evils that needed to be stopped by the Legion. Which we got a plenty. It also gave some depth to the SW6ers too and made them like a second coming, reinforcing why they had the beliefs they did in spite of what was going on around them. And someone must have liked them. They stayed published through 81 issues of Legionnaires, 16 issues of Lost and Worlds, and 36 issues of The Legion before being shunted off into the void.

All that is to say is – while I can see why the direction that was taken seemed abrupt and unnecessary at the time, what did come out of it was some really good stuff. The idea that the Beirbaums somehow burned it for fanboys to ever right again is laughable considering they were on Legion/Legionnaires for over 5 years and sales of the books were stead(er) than other books around the time of the investor crash. And we have had other fanboys writing since then including Devin Grayson, Phil Jimenez, Kevin Smith, to name a few off the top of my head, all of whom continually get work.

In fact SW6 grew to become my 2nd favorite Legion group and not all that far behind from what I consider the classic Legion that started from LSH V2 #284 – LSH V3 #63. The new Legion is a clan of winey brats. Booster should just pop in and dump some Starro spors on them all and be done with it.

If we can’t get regular Perez, Phil Jiminez would rock too.

OM: I’d be interested to hear ‘honest, logical evidence’ for why the series is ‘five years crap’. We’re clearly not going to convince one another but you’ve provided very few solid arguments and have attacked others for doing the same in defence of the series.