Comic Book Resources

The WASP dying is the big conclusion to Secret Invasion?

The WASP?!??!

Regardless of cause of death:-

10 The Innocent bystander.
This death shows us just how rotten the villain is. They are rarely even given names.

9 The Uncle Ben.
Character’s death motivates the protagonist to become a superhero.

8 The Gwen Stacey.
If she doesn’t die then the writers would have to have them marry. Much better to have a grief-stricken hero than a married one.

7 The Wonder Man.
Character shows up, is given a couple of pages of personality and then sacrifices themself to save the hero. Hero furrows his noble brow at the funeral and pontificates about courage.

6 The Legacy Hero.
Hero dies and his costume and name are immediately adopted by his kid sidekick.

5 The Whodunnit.
Front cover states: “Not a hoax, not an imaginary story, in this issue a hero dies.”

4 The Crisis Cannon Fodder.
Cross-company “event”. Hero hasn’t appeared in a comic for years.

3 The Justice League of Detroit.
Cross-company “event”. Hero’s comic was recently cancelled.

2 The Red Skull.
The hero’s greatest foe, who has just been twarted for the umpteenth time, falls off a cliff. It is so obvious that this character isn’t dead, that writers sometimes forget to explain their resurrection the next time they are used.

1 The Even My Grandmother has heard of them.
If a character’s image is on a lunchbox, they can never die.

There should be adjustments when there's a body left: for example, body left behind, but mysteriously disappears (Terra, for example).

Every time you have "explosion", it should be "explosion or fall".

Wouldn't it work better with some kind of grid listing the necessary criterias each giving an amount of point? The sum of those would be equivalent to a degree (from 1 to 10) on comic book death finality scale.

Here is some draft for the criterias:

Physiology; human (from Ben Urich to Captain America), non-human/alien , superhuman (from Spider-man to the Thing), ethereal (Secret from Young Justice, Gentleman Ghost..), godlike (all the comic books gods plus Superman , Hulk and the likes), cosmic (from Silver Surfer to the Living Tribunal)

Powerset: none, some powers you can't escape death with (spider-like abilities, optic beams...), some you could escape death with (shapeshifting, size-changing, intangibility...), some powers you should escape death with (healing factor, conversion to energy form, teleportation), some powers you should not die with (mastery over every atom in your body, changing reality...)

type of death: urban death (beating, stabbing, shooting), less urban but conceivable death (explosion, laser or energy beam...), cosmic thing death, magic death.

state of body: not found, found but not identifiable, found and identified but not scientifically, found and scientifically identified (some reliable source said it ws not a clone or dimensional copy)

It should also include the importance of the character in his shared universe.

Both scales, Brian's and Bernard's, are right. Perhaps we can use them both, you know, like the metric system and that ridiculous scaling system you yankees use

What about god and afterworld deaths? If the Warriors of Valhalla get killed in Hel, are they double dead? If Ghost Rider kills Satan, does Satan go to Hell? He was already there. Can Deadman be killed?

I'll just link to the appropriate TV Tropes page. Please try to avoid spending more than an hour exploring TV Tropes as a result of this link.

I feel like illness should be in there somehwere. After all, Captain Marvel stayed dead a good long time, and Colossus was certainly gone for awhile. Hell, I guess technically Captain Marvel still hasn't come back... kinda.

I'd like to echo Sam: The Wasp?! Really?

I agree with Filrouge. The importance of a character should be relevant to the scale. Are super villains being factored in, too? Because Scourge of the Underworld has been offing minor villains left and right for decades.

Also, Clones/Aliens and Doubles should be factored in:

With Clones and Aliens, the likelihood of a Clone or Alien dying and staying dead is pretty high (10)... unless the Clone or Alien played a significant role in a major storyline, and was magical or cosmic in some way (i.e. Madelyn Pryor; however, she turned super hot and evil, so I don't know how that works in this scale... 7... she was gone for awhile.)

Doubles are likely to die and stay dead. If a superhero exists that shares the same name as another more important superhero they're probably going to die. Especially, if you start adding numbers anywhere after the name: Bill Foster (Giant Man II and Goliath IV), DC Characters from any of the various earths, etc (8). Villains are are assuredly dead: Any of the long line of Hate Mongers, the young Rogues in Rogues Revenge (10).

Also, the company plays a major factor in character deaths. Marvel characters mostly stay dead, or at least dead longer (add a point). DC seems to have a quicker turn around... and resurrections are pretty common place (subtract a point).

And that's my two cents.

Woops. Meant subtract a point for Marvel. Add a point for DC.

I agree with Filrouge, some type of empirical system is likely better than an arbitrary system. Mutt's points could be factored in as well. Of course, all of this is arbitrary, as writers will decide which characters they like, and want to use to tell a story, and bring these characters back to life as they see fit. But still.

In any case, I think we could safely assume "the Phoenix" would be at point 0 to 0.5

Your scale should be 1 through 9, because NOBODY stays dead in comics. 10 would be impossible to achieve.

Should we also factor in the age of comic writers/ era of comics they grew up in? For example if a writer grew up reading comics in the 80s, it's more likely to see resurrected 80s characters.

I'd have to say the scale is really should be framed by the question "how long does the character have to remain 'dead' without causing a massive fan-boy freak-out?"

A 1 is a character that could be brought back the very next month and a 10 is pretty much never. For example, if Morpheus from the Sandman were brought back, then there would be a major outcry no matter what. Even if Neil Gaiman were involved, it would be a big, big controversy. Conversely, if Jean Grey turned up in the next issue of "X-Men", then it is probably not even noteworthy. That suggests the centrality of the death of to the title in which it occurred is pretty much the criteria, as opposed to specifics of the character death.

So ....
10 is "the Morpheus", in which the death of the main character comes as a direct result of the plot of a long, well-loved story.
9 is "the Gwen Stacey", in which the of a supporting character comes as the direct result of a long, well-loved story causing major changes in the life of the main character.
8 is "the Barry Allen", in which a major character dies as the focal point in a company wide cross-over and is succeeded by a more interesting heir.
7 is "the Jean Grey 1.0", a team member that dies as a direct result of a major story-line whose death effects other team members.
6 is "the Steve Rogers", in which a major character dies as the focal point in a company wide cross-over and is succeeded by an equally interesting heir.
5 is "the Terra", in which a team member dies as a direct result of a major story-line, but the death doesn't really have much lasting impact on the surviving team members.
4 is "the Hal Jordan", in which a major character dies as the focal point in a company wide cross-over and is succeeded by a less interesting heir.
3 is "the Puck", in which a team member dies in another title.
2 is "the Wasp", in which a long-standing character is used as random cannon fodder in a cross-over.
1. in "the Crimson Fox", in which a character is so obscure that scarcely anyone knows if the character is alive or dead.

Just the other day I was at TVTropes.org & they had a Sorting Algorithm of Deadness

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SortingAlgorithmOfDeadness

Might be adaptable.

You also need to fit in a Superpowered version of "8-Regular human killed in a tremendous explosion without a corpse (like ground zero at a nuke)"

I was utterly convinced that Todd MacFarlane's last issue of Incredible Hulk was the end of Bruce Banner... the following "Gammagate" issue seemed to underline it...

We had a mortally wounded hulk, crawling towards a massive Gamma bomb, mumbling "I'm coming home" as he wrapped his arms around it... then "BOOM" over a two-page spread...

... then we discovered he'd been shrunk at the last microsecond.... that really was the crappiest recover ever...

Your scale should be 1 through 9, because NOBODY stays dead in comics. 10 would be impossible to achieve.

I would say you're close, but that the number 10 slot should be reserved for characters who's whole reason for existence (plot-wise) is to be dead. The example that springs to mind is Ben Parker.

"The example that springs to mind is Ben Parker."

He came back briefly in Peter David's "Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man"...

Sure he was from another dimension/world/whatever, but he came back...

I like Dean's list, but think it could be a little less subjective. Also, Bernard's point about his grandmother needs to be acknowledged. Hence:

1) “the Superman”—an icon that would NEVER stay dead. (Died SUPERMAN #75, brought back SUPERMAN #82) See also, uh, Batman.
2) “the Wasp”—random cannon fodder in an event.
3) “the Hal Jordan” (brought back GREEN LANTERN: REBIRTH #4?)—a major character succeeded by someone less interesting.
4) “the Ted Kord” (died COUNTDOWN TO INFINITE CRISIS #1, brought back in recent BOOSTER GOLD stuff?)—a “the stakes are THIS high” death. See also Martian Manhunter, Sue Dibny, Black Goliath.
5) “the Terra”—a team member/supporting cast player who dies at the conclusion of a story.
6) “the Captain Marvel” (died MARVEL GRAPHIC NOVEL #1, brought back [in Skrull form] CIVIL WAR: THE RETURN #1)—died in a beloved, well-remembered story.
7) “the Barry Allen” (died CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS #8, brought back FINAL CRISIS #2)—a major character whose death was a key part of a significant story, with repercussions for other characters. See also Steve Rogers, Jean Grey (at least originally).
“the Gwen Stacy” (died AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #121, clone stuff in the “original” Clone Saga)—the death of a supporting character has a major effect on the main character. See also Bucky, Jason Todd etc.
9) “the Uncle Ben” (died AMAZING FANTASY #15, Peter David did some time travel-esque stuff in FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPIDER-MAN)—the death is a key part of an iconic hero’s reason for being. See also, the Waynes, Jor-El and Lara.
10) “the Morpheus” (died SANDMAN #69)—the death of the main character is the end result of a long, beloved story

I think by this point, Jean Grey deserves a field all of her own.

Dean and Sam,

I like both your lists, but I've got to take issue with making Morpheus a ten. Yes, he died as a result of a long, beloved story and there would be some controvesy if he returned, but Jean Grey originally died as a result of a long, beloved story. and there WAS a lot of controvesy when she returned. Marvel brought her back because they thought they would make a lot of money re-uniting the original X-Men. They brought her back despite Chris Claremont's express wishes and the harm it did to their top-selling product. And they were proved right. X-Factor was enormous financial success and brought in an era of crossovers that Marvel and DC are still addicted to.

If DC thought there was some financial advantage to bringing back Morpheus, they'd do it in an instant.

[...] Brian Cronin at Comics Should Be Good develops a 10 point scale for the finality of a comic book death in a superhero [...]

I think the way to get the best system would be to come up with a series of questions that you answer to generate their “Resurrection Probability” – the higher the score the more likely we’ll see them again.

Here are the questions I would ask, though I’m sure people could come up with more…

1. Who is it?
An innocent bystander without a name (+0 points), an innocent bystander with a name (+1 point), a new supporting character (+2), a long term supporting character (+3), a supporting character from the beginning (+4), a member of a team (+4), a star of a book (+5)

2. Any previous deaths?
None (+1 points), One but it was the in the origin/first appearance (+2 points), One (+3), Two (+4), Multiple (+5)

3. How did this death occur?
Disease (+0 points), easily killed by villain (+1), Heroic sacrifice (+4), Heroic sacrifice after previously turning evil (+5)

4. Where did this death occur?
In a random issue (+0 points), final issue of the title character’s solo series (+1), regular issue of a book (+2) a storyline limited to one title (+3), a storyline across several titles (+4), the main story of a companywide crossover event (+5),

5. Was there…
No need to see the body (+0 points), A body (+1), a pile of ashes (+2), no body (+3), an indication of a faked death such as a person standing in the shadows at the funeral (+4), a hand rising up from a fresh grave (+5)

6. Is there a successor?
More than one sidekick (+1 points), brand new character who is a minority (+2), no (+3), brand new character (+4), clone (+5)

7. Is this character a successor?
Unique character (+0 points), second character to use this name but the original character is still active (+1), later than the second character to use this name (+2), second character to use this name but has a relation to the first character who is now inactive (e.g. was a sidekick) (+3), second character to use this name but has no relation to the original character who is now inactive (+4), first character to use this name (+5),

8. How did this death impact other characters?
Gave character reason to exist (+0 points), tragic loss for another character that refocuses them (+1), no impact (+3 points), ended a love triangle (+1), funeral attended by superheroes in costume (+5)

9. Has reality been restarted since this death?
No (+0 points), Yes (+3), More than once (+5)

I guess the difference is that Neil Gaiman was the only writer writing the character and the book ended after Morpheus's death. OK, make the critieria "the death was the whole point of the series".

I mean, my point is, although Jean Grey's death was a significant story, THE X-MEN still continued, making it more likely she'd be brought back at some point.

They brought her back despite Chris Claremont’s express wishes and the harm it did to their top-selling product.

Are you sure? I know Claremont didn't want to kill her in the first place and was forced to by the editors. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that he wanted to bring her back himself, but wasn't allowed to.

And Morpheus was reincarnated as Daniel / Daniel absorbed the essence of Morpheus...

Hitman is another that fits this role... Killed at the end of his series and only seen since in flashback-style stories...

Scale of Jean Grey deaths:

1) Looks like all of the X-Men are dead! Continued next issue.
2) The cover of the issue in which she "dies" shows her being stabbed/shot with something and has a caption to the effect of JEAN DEAD YOU BUY NOW
3) Jean was trapped in Magneto's underground lair and is probably dead! Scott will take some time off to find himself.
4) Jean was reabsorbed into the Phoenix Egg Infinity Room of Totally Making Sense if you read all these miniseries and this blog article which annotates it.
5) She could have lived as a goddess, but it was more important that she die... as a human! Watcher out.

I'm glad she's gone. All those stories where they acted like she was actually good for something instead of niothing made me roll my eyes. We have plenty of Avengers who are female, strong and good leaders to choose from, thankyouverymuch.