CBR Live! Archive
Reactions to VS: The Top 25 Comic Book Rivalries!
- by Brian Cronin
- in General
There was some mis-communication on the release of the Top 25, but that's been resolved, so check out the Top 25 here and stop back to let us know what you thought of the list!
And in a couple of weeks, be sure to check back here for the rest of the Top 100, including rivalries between a doctor and a dread fellow and between a blond teen and a dark-haired teen!
- Posted on January 27, 2009 @ 03:45 PM






46 Comments
Chris Jones
January 23, 2009 at 8:20 am
Here are ones I thought should have been on it:
Darkseid vs Orion
Miracleman vs Kid Miracleman
Superman vs Braniac
Other than that, it was honestly a pretty good list. A couple had me scratching my head but it was all reasonable.
Chris Jones
January 23, 2009 at 8:21 am
Oh, and Maximus vs Black Bolt, although I forgot to put that one on even MY list :\
Rob Schamberger
January 23, 2009 at 8:22 am
Dave Gibbons didn't draw The Killing Joke.
Nick Marino
January 23, 2009 at 8:50 am
Spidey vs. Jonah is good!!! why didn't i think of that? i'm surprised that Bats vs. Ra's made the list.
votes of mine that made the list:
#13, 9, 6, 5, 4, 2, and 1 (maybe #3... i can't remember!)
Adam
January 23, 2009 at 9:48 am
Well, CBR always gives us a Top 100 to these lists, showing us which ones didn't make the Top 25....
My personal hope was that Hulk vs. Bruce Banner would have made the list, so here's hoping to see it in the Top 100 (hopefully #26).
Anonymous
January 23, 2009 at 9:57 am
Captain Marvel wasn't cancelled, Starlin just left book after CM defeated Thanos. Later, when Starlin was doing Warlock (and while CM's book was still going strong) he decided to have Thanos re-appear there.
Thok
January 23, 2009 at 10:11 am
19 made me happy (if I made a top 10 list, Spiderman vs. JJJ would have been top 3 probably, and yes, I did remember that. JMS had a neat issue right before One More Day dealing with JJJ's reaction to the unmasking, where Spiderman basically lets JJJ beat the snot out of him, and it doesn't really make either of them feel better.)
Hal Jordan vs. Sinestro is probably the rivalry that's gotten the biggest jump in last 5 years. That's fairly deserved (and a credit to what Johns has done with the characters.)
I'm disappointed Spiderman vs. The Green Goblin made the top 5. I know he's supposedly Spiderman's archvillain (Gwen Stacy died years ago, get over it people), but I'd have put any of the other Spiderman rivalries ahead of it (well, maybe not Venom.) I suspect in a year or so when Dark Reign has done it's thing that rivalry will fall to 10-15.
I'm surprised by the number of "Avengers vs X" rivalries in the 20-25 region (I guess this proves I'm DC and not Marvel.) I'm intrigued that R'as Al Ghul was the third most popular Bat-rivalry behind the obvious ones (I guess Catwoman is seen as less of a rivalry and more of a love story these days.)
JasonM
January 23, 2009 at 10:11 am
CBR should have done a bit more research while putting this list together.
"It has never really been made clear what Jameson’s position is – does he honestly believe that Spider-Man is a crook and a menace?"
I don't know about "current" continuity, but it was made clear way back in 'Amazing Spider-man' #10:
"All my life", "I've been interested in only one thing - making money! And yet Spider-Man risks his life day after day with no thought of reward. If a man like him is good...is a hero...than what am I? I can never respect myself while he lives! Spider-Man represents everything that I'm not! He's brave, powerful, and unselfish! The truth is, I envy him! I, J. Jonah Jameson - millionaire, man of the world, civic leader - I'd give everything I own to be the man that he is! But I can never climb to his level. So all that remains for me is - to try to tear him down - because, heaven help me - I'm jealous of him!"
Michael
January 23, 2009 at 11:03 am
Plenty of other writers, though, have offered conflicting (and even contradicting) explanations for Jonah's crusade, Jason.
tk.
January 23, 2009 at 11:05 am
A couple of my favorites that didn't make the list:
* Dr. Strange vs. The Dread Dormammu
* Jamie Madrox vs. his dupes
* Professor X vs. The Shadow King
Lynxara
January 23, 2009 at 11:28 am
Yeah, didn't one of the later "JJJ hates Spidey" explanations have to do with Jonah believing any man who wore a mask was probably up to no good? And there was some backstory trauma involving terrorists in ski masks that was really impressive when I was eleven.
dhole
January 23, 2009 at 11:55 am
I think that "masks" explanation originated on the 90's Spider-Man cartoon, I don't believe it was ever mentioned in the comic though.
I'm surprised X-Men/Magneto made it above Doom and Luthor, but it was my number one pick so I'm glad.
I basically chose my picks based on how excited I used to get when the recurring rival appeared, and it struck me that Magneto has had more cool, final splash-page reveals than any other villain I can think of. There was the Claremont/Byrne lead-in to the volcano fight, the Bermuda Triangle appearance that leads into a great double-sized issue in no. 150, and most recently a fantastic reveal in Morrison's New X-Men run. In each case my reaction was a dramatic "wow" reaction and never a "not again".
Although the early Stan and Jack issues, yeah, they were going to the well a bit too often, but still...cool rivalry.
My second pick was Doom/FF mainly because of Byrne's run. He used Doom about five times in five years and every time I thoroughly enjoyed the story. He could draw a mean Doom.
Ryan
January 23, 2009 at 12:10 pm
I didn't go through the whole list because of the obnoxious way CBR tried to make me navigate it.
Carl
January 23, 2009 at 1:05 pm
While not surprised, I'm a little disappointed that some of the more personal rivalries didn't make it. Black Manta killed Aquaman's son. Professor Zoom killed Barry Allen's wife (ok, she got better but he didn't find out until years later).
I did find it interesting that there were more Avengers rivalries than X-Men (I'm excluding Wolverine's personal ones). Considering how much more popular the X-Men have been over the last 25 years, you'd think they'd have had more.
mrclam
January 23, 2009 at 1:08 pm
I knew that Dr. Strange VS. Dormammu wouldn't be #1 like it deserves, but not even in the top 25? That's unconscionable! I'm mainly thinking of their epic, almost 200 page battle when they meet for the second time. It's a story that goes around the world and into several dimensions, introduces Eternity, and generally defines what is so "heroic" about Dr. Strange. It's inventive, clever, and contains some of Ditko's finest work ever. It's amazing that it was doled out in 8 page chunks, yet reads like a proper graphic novel. Perhaps Marvel's finest hour, certainly more affecting than the over-hyped "Spider-Man gets out from under a heavy machine" issue of ASM.
Lord Paradise
January 23, 2009 at 1:19 pm
Two-Face and the Riddler should have been on there.
Batman vs. the Joker wasn't on my list. If I had put Joker on there, it would have been vs. James Gordon.
Flythe
January 23, 2009 at 1:33 pm
I remember the story Thok references about JJJ and Spidey after the unmasking. It was a great story, but if I remember correctly it was in Friendly, not Amazing, so Peter David deserves the credit rather than JMS. I thought the unmasking was a horrible idea, but that issue gave me hope for the kind of stories Marvel would be able to tell under those circumstances. Too bad the House of Ideas ran out of ideas and retconned the unmasking before they even had a chance to explore its possibilities.
As far as the list, I was thrilled to see so many of my picks up there, and can't say I disagree with any of the rest. Like others, I'm surprised to see so many Avengers rivalries, but I think that's just a testament to the rich history of the team. The fact that these rivalries were ranked so highly just proves that the Avengers have always had some of the best superhero stories told in the Marvel Universe, and the flagship status the titles are seeing of late is long overdue.
Rebis
January 23, 2009 at 1:40 pm
"I didn’t go through the whole list because of the obnoxious way CBR tried to make me navigate it."
Ditto. That's way too much clicking.
tk.
January 23, 2009 at 1:41 pm
@mrclam: at least it was #1 on some of our lists!
Citizen Scribbler
January 23, 2009 at 1:47 pm
None of my choices made the list this time; not even my one choice from Marvel: X-Men vs. Mojo. I thought Batman vs. Riddler might have made the list. Or the Justice League vs. anybody. I guess this is what I deserve for making Blue Beetle (Ted Kord) vs. Chronos my #1 choice. They only fought twice, but dang do I enjoy reading them...
-Citizen Scribbler
Bill Reed
January 23, 2009 at 2:36 pm
What, no ROM vs. the Dire Wraiths?
MRMIRACLE
January 23, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Minor point: the Avengers vs. the Masters of Evil comments indicate that Hank and Jan Pym didn't contribute a nemesis to Zemo's crew. In fact, the Black Knight was a Giant Man enemy, premiering in Tales to Astonish #52. He came to be associated with Iron Man because:
(a) it was Iron Man that killed him, opening the way for Dane Whitman to take over the armor,
(b) squaring off two armor-plated techno-guys was so blatantly obvious it sticks in the mind, and
(c) nobody ever took much notice of poor Hank.
wolfsbane12
January 23, 2009 at 3:40 pm
All in all, the list didn't quite live up to "greatest" aside from maybe six entries. I think it should've included X-Men v. Sentinels and Trask ever since the genosha incident.
suckiemcsuck
January 23, 2009 at 5:11 pm
A couple of mine that didn't make it:
Rick Grimes vs. Zombies
Batman vs. Scarecrow
Vincent Paul Bartilucci
January 23, 2009 at 6:15 pm
4 of my choices made the list which isn't bad:
20) Legion of Super-Heroes vs the Fatal Five (my #4)
16) Batman vs Ra's Al Ghul (my #5)
13) The Avengers vs Ultron (my #10)
6) Captain America vs the Red Skull (my #1 - and it should be everyone's #1, dammit! There I said it!)
Choices that really should have been on the list:
Superman vs Captain Marvel (my #3)
Justice League of America vs Starro (my #7)
And, just to be self-indulgent, my dark horses. They weren't gonna make it on any top 25 list but I knew that going in!
Aquaman vs Black Manta (my #2 - I'm with ya Carl!)
Black Panther vs Klaw (my #6)
Flash vs Gorilla Grodd (my #7)
Thor vs Hercules (my #9)
Choice that make me realize hoe out of touch I am:
Spider-man vs Venom. Really?
Vincent Paul Bartilucci
January 23, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Oops. Two #7's there. I think Flash vs Gorilla Grodd was #8.
"Cause, y'know, everyone cares!
Filrouge
January 23, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I try to use the link above and end up to the top 25 comic book batlles. Is there a problem?
TPBTraitor
January 27, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I thought Galactus or Silver Surfer shold have been somewhere on the list. Either Galactus vs. Fantastic Four, or Silver Surfer vs. Galactus. With all his history, Superman should have been on the list at least one more time. Guess a lot of Marvel fans voted. Brainiac or Darkseid deserved to be vs. Superman. Also surprised Batman vs. Catwoman, or another Bat villain didn't show up.
Brian Cronin
January 27, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I think it was more that DC fans ALL voted for Batman vs. Joker.
That was on, like, every other list!!
Doug Atkinson
January 27, 2009 at 4:56 pm
"I did find it interesting that there were more Avengers rivalries than X-Men (I’m excluding Wolverine’s personal ones). Considering how much more popular the X-Men have been over the last 25 years, you’d think they’d have had more."
The way that the X-Men's enemies keep joining the team is probably one of the factors at work there, at a guess.
Scott King
January 27, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Horrible navigation clearly meant to increase "hits" for advertising reasons. Didn't bother clicking past number 24.
Bernard the Poet
January 27, 2009 at 5:59 pm
I'm always surprised that the Joker/Batman combo is so popular. In sixty-nine years there have been five - maybe six good stories - and literally hundreds of terrible ones.
Every writer who takes on Batman feels obliged to include the Joker whether they have a story to tell or not and it has resulted in him being over exposed.
The stories when they meet are predictable and formulaic . Batman's physical superiority over the Joker means that there is no tension - how many of the Joker's teeth has Batman knocked out by now?
By the by, Clarence Darrow, Alan Dershowitz and Johnnie Cochran combined couldn't convince a jury that the Joker isn't responsible for his actions. He'd have got the chair years ago.
George Travlos
January 27, 2009 at 6:02 pm
AWESOME! Two Daredevil entries in the top 25 was a great bonus. The only glaring omission was Bruce Banner vs. The Hulk. Great list though. Batman vs. Joker as #1 was well deserved.
Chris Nowlin
January 27, 2009 at 6:09 pm
I voted for 9 Marvel rivalries and Batman vs. Joker.
8 or 9 of my rivalries made the list, so I have little to complain about. I'm actually pleasantly surprised by the list. All classic rivalries up there. My fear is always that the villain of the month will somehow win out, but this wasn't the case here.
I actually think this list came out a lot better than the top 25 battles. Seeing Superman vs. Lex Luthor is more refreshing somehow than seeing Superman vs. Doomsday.
I had voted for Silver Surfer vs. Galactus. Maybe there was too much vote-splitting with Galactus, as I did expect to see FF vs. Galactus on there.
I was also expecting at least one more Batman rivalry, but as I couldn't guess which villain would be next (Penguin, Two-Face, Riddler, who knows?), I figure there was a lot of vote splitting there too.
You gotta respect the love for Daredevil though, given the concern of vote-splitting elsewhere, with his rivalries with Kingpin and Bullseye both making the top 10, as they're easy to associate. I figured I'd just choose one of them (went with Kingpin) and thought this may hurt Daredevil. But nope. People love those Daredevil stories!
And as a Marvel guy, I'm pleased to see Marvel dominate the list.
Chris Nowlin
January 27, 2009 at 6:25 pm
And I've read way more than 6 great Joker stories, I'm quite certain. And waaaaay more than 6 good Joker stories.
I can probably find plenty on my shelf of trades before even looking into the long boxes.
I'd start with the 17 stories found in the "Greatest Joker Stories Ever Told" trade.
Then I'd think about Arkham Asylum, Dark Knight Returns, Death in the Family...
MarkAndrew
January 27, 2009 at 7:15 pm
Man, that Greatest Joker Stories trade was some rough going. I think they could have paired the fifties and sixties down to two stories. Tops.
dhole
January 27, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Batman vs. Joker wasn't on my list for reasons others have mentioned. I used to be a big fan (loved Dark Knight Returns and other assorted appearances in the 80's and 90's) but got sick of, not just the formula, but the ridiculous extent to which Joker gets away with murder over and over again. The last straw was that Detective Comics where he takes Robin on a joyride. I know a lot of people liked that story but I just saw a guy murdering innocent families doing their holiday shopping, and not paying for it in the slightest.
At least with other recurring bad guys like Doom and Kingpin and Luthor, even if they're not physically beaten, you get the sense that they're at least "foiled". Joker's crimes over the years have far outweighed any justice he's received, and it's just not fun for me to read about anymore.
Oh, and in the "rivalries that weren't mentioned" category, I wish we'd seen Swamp Thing and Arcane.
jazzbo
January 27, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Batman vs Joker would have been my #1 if I had gotten a ballot in in time. That said, Joker is horribly overexposed these days. One of the many problems with Batman seemingly being handed to whatever "hot" writer wants to take him is that they all want to hit all the big bad guys, and usually all of the other iconic parts of the Batman mythos. So of course everyone includes the Joker somewhere. And as has been mentioned, it's usually not very good. I remember during the days when Aparo and Breyfogle were the two Bat artists that there was a big deal about an upcoming Joker appearance, because it had been over 2 years since he had been in a Batman comic. They need to go back to that kind of break between Joker appearances.
Dave
January 28, 2009 at 2:50 am
What, no SHIELD vs HYDRA?
kryptofan1
January 28, 2009 at 6:49 am
I will be curious to see where Flash (Zoom-killer) v. Zoom (wife-killer)-my number 8-and Aquaman v. Black Manta (child killer)-my honorable mention fall.
None of my top ten made the top 25, but here they are and my reasoning:
1) Swamp Thing v. Anton Arcane (Alan Moore's Dark Messiah storyline hooked me like nothing had before-the words "Since yesterday" still give me a chill.)
2) Doom Patrol v. Brotherhood of Evil (I always loved the Doom Patrol. Originally, both the Doom Patrol and the Brotherhood were killed by rogue Brotherhood member Madame Rouge and her ally Captain Zahl)
3) Argent v. Grendel (ugly, brutal and good verus handsome, charming, and evil, not to mention the Christine Spaar version)
4) Dreadstar v. Lord High Papal (this one easily could have been Dreadstar versus the Empire and the Instrumentality)
5) Batman v. Nocturna v. Night-Slayer (I loved the Doug Moench era of Batman back in the 80s)
6) Deathstroke the Terminator v. Changeling (one word: Terra-I love a rivalry that ends with a conversation rather than a battle)
7) Silver Surfer v. Mephisto (messianic space god versus the devil-before Mephisto became the deus ex machina of Spider-Man)
9) Superman v. Mongul (because of Alan Moore's "What do you get for the man who has everything?" in a Superman Annual.-my favorite line: "Happy Birthday Kryptonian. I bring you oblivion."
10) Captain Mar-Vell v. Thanos (I was always a bigger Adam Warlock fan, but tthe Death of Graphic Novel Graphic novel put this one over the top.)
Carl
January 28, 2009 at 7:06 am
I think the reason overuse of the Joker seems worse than overuse of Lex Luthor, for example, has to do with their goals. With the Joker, killing people and causing mayhem is pretty much the goal, despite whatever "plan" he may actually be working on. With Luthor, the goal is acquiring power and killing Superman. At the end of the story, even if Luthor gets away, he's been handed a defeat. The Joker has pretty much always succeeds, because he's more about the journey than the destination.
That's why I don't put Jason Todd's murder and Barbara Gordon's paralysis in the same personal category as Flash vs. Professor Zoom or Aquaman vs. Black Manta. The Joker kills indiscriminately. He's not trying to hurt Batman on a personal level the way Zoom and Manta did.
Scott MacIver
January 28, 2009 at 7:57 am
I'm surprised at the low number of X-Men on the list. I thought for sure that either Phoenix or the Hellfire Club woulda cracked the top 25. Seems like Logan ate all their votes...
I was surprised by the Legion entry though. That was a fun rivalry.
Carl
January 28, 2009 at 9:40 am
Phoenix was pretty much only one battle. Likewise, if you look past the original Dark Phoenix arc, the Hellfire Club hasn't really been much of a rival to the X-Men. They've had more internal battles than fights with the X-Men.
Dalarsco
January 28, 2009 at 12:00 pm
I didn't expect Batman vs. R'as Al'Ghul to make it. It was fairly high on my list, but I didn't realize that the feeling was so common. I wonder if my #1 vote for Professor X vs. Magneto was counted along with the generic X-Men vs. Magneto votes. My intent was more for the debates between them mid-fight than for the actual fights.
Most of my list was there. I forgot the exact numbers, but I voted for the ones I just mentioned and Spider-Man vs. Green Goblin, Batman vs. Joker, Wolverine vs. Sabertooth, X-Factor Investigations vs. Singularity Investigations, X-Men vs. Apocalypse, The Avengers vs. Ultron, Captain America vs. The Red Skull, Daredevil vs. either Kingpin or Bullseye, I can't remember which.
Mike Loughlin
January 28, 2009 at 5:33 pm
I forgot to vote, but I'm reasonably sure my vote for Dracula vs. Quincy Harker's crew wouldn't have pushed it into the top 25.
Other than the match-ups I that ended up in the top 25, I would have voted for:
Black Panther vs. Killmonger, based solely on the Priest isues. T'Challa goes up against someone he can't always outfight or outthink.
Hulk vs. Leader. Peter David got great mileage out of their rivalry, and made the Leader a much better villain.
fourthworlder
January 29, 2009 at 8:19 pm
Oh! Dracula vs. Quincy Harker's group! How did I not think of that? Guess it's been a while. I would have definitely put it in if I'd considered it, that was great stuff.