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Final Crisis #7 Review

Well then.

I think I’ll coin a new term for this issue – this was a “The Good of the Many Outweighs the Good of the One” comic. In that it was good, but had deficiencies that I think ran directly to the interest of giving the overall story a clear ending, thereby sacrificing some of its own quality in favor of making the whole work read better (of course, that desire was then dashed a bit by DC’s plans for the trade collection). Then again, that’s a common problem for final issues, so comparably, this held up on its own remarkably well (and really did give the whole endeavor a clear and satisfying conclusion).

First off, it was awesome having a single artist (and a good one, to boot!) artist working on this issue. Doug Mahnke did very well with the time he had, art-wise. It was odd, however, to have Marco Ruby do the cover instead of Mahnke (I presume Mahnke was on a tight deadline, but man, he couldn’t have drawn a more rushed-looking cover than what Rudy came up with. He appears to have drawn the cover in about five minutes. Holy bejeezuz, that was an ugly cover!). Thank goodness for JG Jones’ awesome Superman cover!

There are two notable drawbacks of the issue.

One, Mandrakk really should have appeared more in Final Crisis if DC is going to sell Final Crisis #1-7 as a Hardcover. As I’ve said in the past, I was not too irked by the idea of Superman Beyond basically being Final Crisis #4 and 8 (of a 9-issue series). But that was when I was hoping DC would have the Hardcover be Final Crisis #1-7 plus Superman Beyond #1-2. With the knowledge that the hardcover will NOT have Sueprman Beyond, that is pretty lame. It’s not a HUGE deal, and you can still follow the series without Superman Beyond, but Superman Beyond sure as hell helps.

Two, due to the fact that this is the issue where the story is wrapped up, there are some awkward moments where Morrison simply does that – wrap the story up. Some “and then this happened and then this happened” storytelling in a few of the spots. That, I am sure, will work well for the trade collection (hence the “for the good of the many” part) but it hurts this single issue. In addition, some stuff seems rushed for space (Hawkman and Hawkgirl’s death, for instance).

Okay, so once you get that all out of the way (Mandrakk should be in the series more – actually, the Superman Beyond stuff was explained pretty well EXCEPT for Mandrakk, there were some awkward moments of exposition and some scenes seemed rushed for lack of space), this was still a very good comic book.

Doug Mahnke handled the artwork with a sense of might and importance, and he has a number of big time great moments (Captain Marvel arriving with the alternate universe characters plus the sea of Supermen showing up) that he illustrates magnificently. However, there were also plenty of other moments where the rush on his artwork (and the multitude of inkers) was evident.

There are a number of great character moments in the book, which is great to see in a company-wide crossover, plus little moments like Dinah and Ollie celebrating The Ray presenting the Sigil on Earth. Barry and Wally bringing the Black Racer to Darkseid. The Japanese heroes had their moment. We got great scenes with the remaining heroes feeling that they are done for.

Perhaps the best moment of the issue was the revelation of who this was a “Final Crisis” FOR. That was beautifully handled.

And, of course, I was quite pleased to be right that Morrison explained that Batman was not really dead. In fact, he handled that about as perfectly as you could possibly handle it – show him as not dead while at the same time NOT exactly showing what his deal is. Perfect.

There were so many great moments, I’m sure I’m missing some (like the Green Lanterns staking Mandrakk or the purposely hokey “Let the Sun shine in”….ooooh…how about the WiR joke! That was classic).

So yeah, good issue, all in all, and an even better story in total.

Recommended.

138 Comments

I haven’t decided whether or not this was a good issue yet.

That said, I love the idea that in the DCU, Superman can wish for a happy ending and it happens with glorious splash pages.

Very accurate review. The only real ball dropping with this series i’ve seen is not including Beyond in the main series, and then not including the mini in the trade.

I thought it was the weakest issue in the series.

I thought it was the weakest issue in the series.

Totally agreed.

I think the weakest issue in the series is still a very good issue, but yeah, this one was the weakest of the bunch.

Honestly, as I read it there were several times when I wondered if the pages were in the wrong order or if I was reading the boxes out of order. No clue what to make of this issue.

wow given how reserved your gushing was for this issue it must have really really sucked

Uhh… I’m just going to say It’s nice to think Batman is out there somewhere and hopefully this really is the Final Crisis, please God let this be the Final Crisis, Superman wished for a happy ending! WTF! on a scale of 1 to 10 this gets a No Bueno! later!

Mahnke’s art was tremendous, especially considering the circumstances that surrounded him coming onto the book. And FC7, like the rest of the series, was full of great character moments and cameos.

That said, good art under tough conditions and great character moments and cameos don’t make for a good story. Neither does an intriguing plot.

Only good storytelling makes for a good story. And from beginning to end, this series was abysmally bad storytelling.

Worst crossover of the decade

You people read INFINITE CRISIS, right?

I enjoyed some of the issue, but the series’ stories and Superman Beyond seemed to crunch up like a fiery car wreck on the 101 in the last few pages.

Ultimately comparable to Bendis’s Secret Invasion and Morrison’s other series like Seven Soldiers: the ending came too fast and was too compressed to feel like a worthy capstone to the build-up. As it stands, I’d still rank versions of “Rock of Ages” like this:

1) Rock of Ages
2) Final Crisis

It’s been hard for me to go back and forth between this series and Trinity, because the alternate worlds in Trinity (and in the Anansi issues of JLA) seemed more “real” than this stuff with Boar’s-head Diana and Fetish Mary.

So I’ve been “eh” about the series as a whole, but Captain Carrot being part of the epic conclusion made me so happy that I’ve forgotten all the stuff I didn’t like.

What exactly is storytelling other than plot and characterisation?

Well, there’s atmosphere, but that wasn’t a problem here.

Artistic panel-to-panel continuity is also part of storytelling. How the action is depicted and flows from one panel to the next. With the DC full script method the writer is mostly responsible for panel to panel flow. With the Marvel method, the artist has a lot more discretion for determining panel to panel flow.

Maybe it’s because I reread 1-6 before starting on this today but I really loved it. This is going to age better than you can imagine. The delays really killed it because of the “channel-surfing style.” There was just so much for people to forget. There isn’t a throwaway line in the entire comic. Everything in the earlier issues gets paid off later. It’s just that by the time #6 came out, I had forgotten 2/3 of what came before.

With the Marvel method, the artist has a lot more discretion for determining panel to panel flow.

I could be way off, but I thought the “Marvel method” was something from the 60s and 70s that people like Stan Lee who were doing ten thousand books simultaneously felt necessary in order to meet deadlines. I don’t think any current writer (at DC or Marvel) uses that method any more. Maybe you’re not saying they do, but it seems like you were noting a contrast between the two companies.

I was of the understanding that that is how and why it started, but that it continued as a tradition as late as the 90s. Of course there are exceptions. I believe Bendis writes full script. But for the most part, I got the impression that most Marvel writers give the artist a lot more leeway with the storytelling than DC writers do. Maybe this would be one of those good questions to ask Brian?

FC #7 dazzled me and made me finally see that the whole thing really was a Morrison comic, in a good way.

FC: Revelations was also good– but the gap between the end of it and the relevant panel in FC #7 was kind of jarring, and sapped some of the force out of FC: R.

i’m just glad it’s over.

i can’t really admit to enjoying Final Crisis. or understanding it, either.

i’m sure 20 years from now, i’ll look back on this and say, “oh! it makes sense NOW.”

but the book was worth the price with the appearance by Captain Carrot.

I liked it, although I wasn’t reading the Superman Beyond books so there are some things I “think” I get, but I don’t know for sure.

And the ending probably left some people flat but I expected that. Morrison’s endings are always anti-climactic. And because I expected it, I thought it worked fine.

Another amazing moment that I too missed until I read an annotation, was page 25 the first panel. Superman’s hand is about to become the hand of creation at the begining of time that is in all the Crisis’s. So awesome.

Final Crisis made sense.

It was well-constructed and enormously sprawling, with lots of characters, worldfs, and elements.

And it still made sense.

Saying “it did not make sense” is not a valid critique.

Where is Superman Beyond being collected?

FunkyGreenJerusalem

January 28, 2009 at 8:59 pm

I was of the understanding that that is how and why it started, but that it continued as a tradition as late as the 90s. Of course there are exceptions. I believe Bendis writes full script. But for the most part, I got the impression that most Marvel writers give the artist a lot more leeway with the storytelling than DC writers do. Maybe this would be one of those good questions to ask Brian?

I’ve seen scripts by Mark Waid, and I believe Kurt Busiek, where they’ve described what happens on the page, but left the specific page and panel layouts to the artist.

I believe this what we now refer to as the ‘Marvel’ method, where as when it originally started, only a plot was given to the artist (or even come up with by the artist as some say), and the writer then added dialogue and such later.

I felt that Mandrakk should have been left out of FINAL CRISIS entirely. The events of SUPERMAN: BEYOND should have either remained separate or been folded into a 9-part series. The defeat of Darkseid at the end of time was a big enough headline for FC #7.

I think it would be very hard to synthesize FC, Beyond, and Batman:RIP into a single reading (which could be intentional). I get the sense that Morrison loves these two characters separately, but is not sure what to do with them together. FC #6 was almost a total Batman story, while the finale was dominated by Superman.

In the end though, it was a love sonnet to the DC universe. And like a lot of poetry, it was hokey at times, endearing at others, but ultimately heartfelt and genuine.

Yeah, I think when Final Crisis started, many critics didn’t want to be catalogued as stupid or ignorant as the masses (even if they didn’t like it, just like Batman RIP), even though today Morrison is not the same writer of Animal Man or Doom Patrol. So they became almost apologists both of Morrison and the story, and blamed the reader (either he is too stupid he can’t comprhend this magnum opus, he’s too lazy, or he’s just a fanboy who’s afraid of change, etc, etc). Now that the crossover is finished, all the readerdom is disappointed, either because they didn’t like it, or didn’t understand it (or both). But the critics already sold the idea of “The megacrossover for the thinking man”, so instead of saying “I f&%$ing hate it”, they say that is a good story but with some flaws.

Is that why critics do that Rex? That is why people say their opinions in the way that they do?

Because of things you said?

GOOD TO KNOW

Because, of course, there cannot possibly be those of us who both liked and understood it. We’re all delusional. Good to know.

I’m not sure how one could read this comic without crying.
Maybe if you’ve never loved anyone, if you’ve never lost anyone, if you’ve never created something, if you’ve never felt such rage and hopelessness that you wanted to destroy everything in sight, if you’ve never had a friend who helped you when you thought you were alone, if you’ve never known a child well enough to be amazed by them and awed by the thought of them growing up in a new world, if you’ve always thought that crying was a waste of time… I suppose that would be how you could do it.
After so much distress, particularly in the last issue, this was a true dawn.
I don’t give a damn what its flaws were. Right now this is the best comic ever.

Eh, go easy on Rex, guys, he’s got a point. I thought I liked the comic too, until he explained that I actually didn’t.

well for those critics out there im not exactly sure what the alternative superhero comic out there is that is going to give you what this gives you. A story about stories. I really loved seeming Morrison tell the same story in a way he always tells the same lesson he always wants us to learn all condensed in this over the top hail storm of sights sounds and familiar faces. Other than that I like Nova….uh….

I liked a lot of things about this issue — how hard it is to kill a god, the fact that they actually destroyed the world and had to restore it to where it left off (and watching the heroes soldier on past the end of the world), the return of the Zoo Crew, the Flash Family Reunion, the crazy stuff about the nature of the universe — but had two main problems.

1. The structure. Not the flashbacking, that was fine. But there were way too many things that were just brushed by with a single panel that really should have been told in more detail.

2. Mandrakk the cosmic vampire. Just didn’t work for me in this context.

If anyone’s interested, I’ve written up a full review of the book on my own blog.

I loved it!
I do have to say it would definitely benefit from being read as a trade with Superman Beyond 1&2, Final Crisis: Submit and Resist added in chronological order. Maybe even Last Rites, but that really should have just been one issue.

I kind of enjoyed Secret Invasion as well, but other than continuity references that will be forgotten about in a few months, while Final Crisis will be remembered for years to come.

loved the captain carrot thing… but it totally contradicts stuff from the last CCAHAZC mini.
such as:
-earth-26 being called earth-35 (
-the normal earth-0 pig transforming into pig iron (uh… he never made it over to earth-0… he’s still on earth-26 battling starro)
-the actual ending shaw had planned (yes, the last mini was a “to be continued…”) probably won’t ever be seen now.

I called the return of Mandrakk and the stuff with Kamandi.

But for the most part, I got the impression that most Marvel writers give the artist a lot more leeway with the storytelling than DC writers do. Maybe this would be one of those good questions to ask Brian?

There hasn’t been any conformity to this rule in years (at least in terms of “Company X mostly does it like this while Company Y mostly does it like that). It’s specific to the writers involved, and as you know, writers change companies a lot, and they simply take their style to their new company.

Saying “it did not make sense” is not a valid critique.

A slight criticism that I had with this particular issue was that I almost felt that he was OVER-explaining at times (to the detriment of the flow of the story), so yeah, I really don’t understand not being able to make sense of this book.

Where is Superman Beyond being collected?

In a separate “tie-ins” trade-paperback titled Final Crisis Companion.

It’s amazing that they’re not even going to have the Superman Beyond stories appear in a hardcover.

Maybe they’re waiting for, like, an Absolute Edition or something annoying like that.

Yeah, I think when Final Crisis started, many critics didn’t want to be catalogued as stupid or ignorant as the masses (even if they didn’t like it, just like Batman RIP), even though today Morrison is not the same writer of Animal Man or Doom Patrol. So they became almost apologists both of Morrison and the story, and blamed the reader (either he is too stupid he can’t comprhend this magnum opus, he’s too lazy, or he’s just a fanboy who’s afraid of change, etc, etc). Now that the crossover is finished, all the readerdom is disappointed, either because they didn’t like it, or didn’t understand it (or both). But the critics already sold the idea of “The megacrossover for the thinking man”, so instead of saying “I f&%$ing hate it”, they say that is a good story but with some flaws.

The same dumb argument made over and over again by different posters.

It’s quite maddening.

Blackagar Boltagon

January 29, 2009 at 12:18 am

It’s a perfectly valid criticism to say Final Crisis didn’t make sense. I’m sure it made perfect sense to some, but I got very little out of it.
For the past few years I’ve been reading the big DCU events (Identity Crisis, Inifinte Crisis and now Final Crisis) to see if I could enjoy them as someone with a very limited knowledge of the universe (other DCU stuff I have read includes Morrison’s JLA, Morrison’s Animal Man, a bunch of the early Vertigo stuff that was still technically in the DCU and a bunch of out of continuity stuff like DKR and ASS). I didn’t read any tie-ins or any of the build up, just the events themselves to see if they could actually act as gateway comics into the larger universe, which in my opinion should be something an event comic seeks to accomplish.
Though it wasn’t much of a story, Identity Crisis was fairly straight forward and easy to follow as a relatively new reader. What you had to know to understand the story was presented within the main series. Infinite Crisis was confusing and didn’t make much of an effort to help out the casual reader who might not have an encyclopedic knowledge of 25 years of continuity. However, Final Crisis made no effort whatsoever and, from what I can glean regarding the comments surrounding Superman Beyond, had crucial story information occur in a secondary book.
That’s not to say that FC was bad, just that it wasn’t remotely accessible to readers who don’t already have a vested interest in the greater DCU, which to me seems like a rather important failing for a book that by design is supposed to move more numbers than the usual DC offering.
Final Crisis could well be an excellent superhero comic, but it didn’t make a lick of sense to me and I’d imagine one of DC’s desires for the series was to get readers like me, who are open to a good superhero yarn, exicited enough about the universe to continue giving them money after the event where I didn’t before (well, except for Vertigo and the odd Wildstorm book).

What confused you in Final Crisis?

I had no idea what was going on most of the time but loved every moment of it. I may have to pick up Superman Beyond. I skipped it not realizing stuff from it would appear unexplained. I have no idea who Mandrakk even is. Aside from that, so many great moments that I wish could have been more than moments. This really should have been 12 issues alone, not 12 issues once you count Superman Beyond and the specials.

Personally, I enjoyed this isue, but there were chunks of it I had to handle in a “just let it wash over you and try to keep up with the gist” way, like when you’re watching a performance of a Shakespeare play you’ve never read and the actors start speaking too quickly for you to register every single word but you still have a pretty good idea what’s going on.

For example, the panel with Luthor and Sivana blasting Supergirl and the robotic Superman. When I first read that part, I couldn’t tell which side Luthor and Sivana were on, and whether that was supposed to be happening before or after the rocket launching. A few pages later you find out which side the villains are on (presumably they just didn’t care enough to try not to hit Supergirl too) and it doesn’t really matter what order the various “future” events take place (but just because it doesn’t matter doesn’t mean it isn’t confusing).

I still have no idea why we cut to Aquaman for a panel, and I didn’t even realize that Hawkman and Hawkwoman died. For that matter, were Green Arrow and Black Canary supposed to have died too? ‘Cause it sure looked that way. And why did Darkseid become an abstract pattern for his final conversation with Superman?

I know people are going to call me dumb and say that those things I didn’t get couldn’t POSSIBLY have been clearer – and if you understood every bit of it more power to you (although honestly, I think parts of it were supposed to be abstract – more like a poem than an essay) – but really, the sort of “if you didn’t get it, you’re just dumb” comments that get thrown around are exactly why other people are suggesting that the people who liked it (which I did) are just apologists. If you know for a fact that you don’t understand something, and someone tells you it’s impossible to not understand it … well, that person’s either lying or wrong. When that person’s argument seems to boil down to “you’re just too dumb to get it” (whether that’s what they really mean or not – one of the biggest mistakes you can make in a debate is assuming that what you MEANT matters more what you actually CONVEYED) you don’t really have a lot of incentive to consider their point of view entirely valid.

I largely liked Final Crisis but I have to say parts of it were confusing to me. And I read all the tie-ins. Perhaps I am not smart enough to understand it, but I tend to think it’s just confused storytelling.

For example in the first issue I totally did not get the idea that Anthro was the world’s first superhero because he had fire, as explained by Grant Morrison in an interview. And the idea that Metron created superheroes(I guess). That was a lot to infer from the pages presented, imo.

Largely though the machine gun plot points were just plain hard to follow month by month… or at least some of them. For example it wasn’t until that scene with the guy that solved the Rubik’s Cube motherboxxx thing that I knew that one Monitor was even a Monitor(and only because people mentioned it at sites like these – I thought it was the new Metron at first)… that was likely a delay thing but for a while when I saw the human version of the Monitor after he was expelled from Monitor-land I thought he was Mr Miracle with a new haircut. And no that timeline wouldn’t make sense, but frankly so much of this was dense and obscure that I felt like I just forgot a part. I had thought the Monitors just disappeared from the story.

I really wish this had been a 12 issue series with more fleshed out scenes. So many major plot points were just skimmed over… the whole thing with Libra assembling the supervillains was ultimately pointless, and really only provided a couple nice moments for Luthor late in the series. What did the villains ultimately do? They didn’t engage anyone outside the two spinoffs Rogues Revenge and Rucka’s Spectre mini. And they hardly had much to do in those, aside from one or two of them. Martian Manhunter dying, since it was so tied into that plot point, was fairly pointless as well. It did turn out to be killing a character for the sake of killing a character.

The Japanese super-team was interesting but they didn’t do anything, really, did they? I guess they got Mr Miracle to Checkmate, where he did…something? Did he? He gave them the idea to use that facial design but it was ultimately pointless because Superman saved the day after they failed anyway. It’ll be interesting to see how often the Japanese heroes appear again outside of comics written by Grant Morrison. The Ten never really amounted to much except the one who appeared in Checkmate.

And perhaps this is an unpopular sentiment but JG Jones is not *that* good an artist that I’d take him being late over some other perfectly good and more timely artist. There has to be some artists that can draw on a monthly schedule, right?

Superman Beyond being missing from the hardcover is a bit of a kick in the groin as well. I found that mini to be pretty obscure as well, but at least it filled in some of the gaps.

There were many things I did like, though, scattered throughout the entire series. Batman’s turning the tables on Darkseid, the Flashes’ plan, Tawky Tawny vs Kalibak, Superman’s Miracle Machine, the Japanese super team was fun even I didn’t see their point. Luthor was fun to watch in the last half. A lot of great moments. I definitely felt I got my money’s worth, at the least. I just think it could have been a truly great mini if it had been told with a bit more clarity.

Ideally at some point DC puts out an omnibus with FC #1-7, Superman Beyond, Submit, & Resist, in reading order *with annotations*, like in Moore’s From Hell.

I whole heartedly second ZZZ’s comment.

If I’m being made feel like an idiot/snark for finding the story badly structured and obtuse I’m going to think the people making me feel that way are total apologists and it’s going to put me off the book even more.

I agree that beyond should be included in the trade but maybe they’re worried no-one will pick up the companion without Grant’s name on it?

If you know for a fact that you don’t understand something, and someone tells you it’s impossible to not understand it … well, that person’s either lying or wrong.

See, I’d make the exact opposite argument.

When people complain that the books are incomprehensible, THEY’RE wrong, because others were able to comprehend them. It’s almost like a student complaining that a math problem they’ve been assigned is impossible to solve. Well, no it isn’t. How else is someone possiby supposed to respond to that?

And frankly, I see the “you’re too dumb to get it” argument used a LOT less than I do the “you’re just pretending to like it to seem smart” argument. So I’m in no rush to break out my violin for the people who didn’t understand it.

Except that Morrison wrote submit so it just doesn’t make any sense.
Maybe an all Morrison companion with Last Rites and Submit then an other writers companion with Resist, Requiem and some other stuff?

That some people found this book adequate, let alone good amazes me. It was confusing, badly drawn and completely incomprehensible from beginning to end. People keep talking about how there was too much going on to do anything but see the highlights and yet we spent months and pages on a lame battle between Supergirl and “bad” Mary Marvel and far too many scenes with Mr Tawky Tawny for anyone not thrilled with the Shazam family to know what’s going on. And in the end what did we get? A bunch of monitors agonizing about their role in the care of the multiverse. What makes that any different from 52? And the return of Barry Allan in a confusing and odd bit of storytelling that involves them outracing the Black Racer who then, apparently, decides to take Darksied instead. (Huh?) And what about those confusing Asian Super-Heroes who were named after western heroes. We get single panels of them professing love to one another as they’re being destroyed despite the fact we had only met them fleetingly on anything other than Morrison’s story-boards (which were, sadly, more clear than this entire series.) A giant wank and a mistake that will be absorbed into continuity like so many other lame-ass “universe altering” cross-overs and forgotten in months. More tedioius and disappointing than the Secret Invasion and Planet Hulk combined and a spectular editing and writing failure from some of DC’s top people. Normally I give my comics away after I’ve read them, usually to places where they’ll be exposed to non-comic readers. This series I’ll just burn as I don’t need to be turning more people off to the medium with yet more bad, ultra dense story-telling that pleases only the most deluded of fan boys. So just to reitierate- Final Crisis sucked ass. Big time!

Gil Jaysmith
January 28, 2009 at 9:25 pm
I’m not sure how one could read this comic without crying.
Maybe if you’ve never loved anyone, if you’ve never lost anyone, if you’ve never created something, if you’ve never felt such rage and hopelessness that you wanted to destroy everything in sight, if you’ve never had a friend who helped you when you thought you were alone, if you’ve never known a child well enough to be amazed by them and awed by the thought of them growing up in a new world, if you’ve always thought that crying was a waste of time… I suppose that would be how you could do it.
After so much distress, particularly in the last issue, this was a true dawn.
I don’t give a damn what its flaws were. Right now this is the best comic ever.

Being made to cry by a comic of this caliber doesn’t mean the comic was good it means you need psychological help. Really.

Well, I support the “Delays harmed the story-telling” line.

When I get round to picking this up (in two weeks damnit!) I’ll be re-reading #1-6 and Superman Beyond #1&2 before I open it up. It really helped with the first 3 issues.

I personally believe that there’s tonnes of symbolism and obscure character references that I’m missing, but I don’t honestly care. I didn’t know all the characters in Crisis on Infinite Earths, but that didn’t stop me enjoying a story about heroism and fighting evil.

The same applied with Kingdom Come.

The same applies to Final Crisis —I have enjoyed the overall story so far and I’m sure when an annotated or Absolute verson with scripts an notes comes out, it will fill in more stuff for me to enjoy, but really that’s just extra layers and garnish to an otherwise thoroughly enjoyable read.

Sometimes I think Morrison is overhyped to his detriment. People come to his work with a lot of baggage. I can’t help but wonder if this had come out under a Pseudonym that no-one had heard before (like a Pedro Henry of the past) whether people would be as critical (both negatively and positively) to such extremes…

Read through it like any other comic. Forget that it’s got all this hype around it, forget the author, forget the artist(s). Read it as a superhero story. Do you need to know every detail about these characters? Their actions and interactions within the story really tell you all that you need to know (at least in the context of Final Crisis) …. With the exception that I think a collection should include FC #1-7, Supeman Beyond 3D #1&2 AND Batman #682&683…

Lower your expectations and be pleasantly surprised…

Oh, and I forgot to add Submit and Resist into the binding as well… so that’s 13 issues… One big chunky collection, or two “Premiere Hardcovers”…

[...] that’s what passes for praise. In a similar vein, from CBR’s Brian Cronin: [D]ue to the fact that this is the issue where the story is wrapped up, there are some awkward [...]

“B-Rad” said:

“Being made to cry by a comic of this caliber doesn’t mean the comic was good it means you need psychological help. Really.”

Now you’re just being a dick.

You not understanding the book says nothing about the book itself, but everything about you, as a reader. Don’t take out your failure to grasp things on someone who got emotional over FC, and was brave enough to admit it in public.

That’s just dick, man.

I know people are going to call me dumb and say that those things I didn’t get couldn’t POSSIBLY have been clearer – and if you understood every bit of it more power to you (although honestly, I think parts of it were supposed to be abstract – more like a poem than an essay) – but really, the sort of “if you didn’t get it, you’re just dumb” comments that get thrown around are exactly why other people are suggesting that the people who liked it (which I did) are just apologists. If you know for a fact that you don’t understand something, and someone tells you it’s impossible to not understand it … well, that person’s either lying or wrong. When that person’s argument seems to boil down to “you’re just too dumb to get it” (whether that’s what they really mean or not – one of the biggest mistakes you can make in a debate is assuming that what you MEANT matters more what you actually CONVEYED) you don’t really have a lot of incentive to consider their point of view entirely valid.

The moment I tell someone that they’re dumb because they didn’t get it (or the converse, “if you don’t get it, then you’re dumb”), feel free to bitch.

Since I categorically do NOT do that, then I expect the same basic level of non-dickishness from the commenters going the other way.

When I don’t get that same basic level of non-assholeitude from commenters, then I explain that they’re being dumb (because they are, if they can’t express a position without being jerks).

I understand that that’s probably naive to expect people not to act like dicks, but hey, like Superman, I can dream of happier times.

I understand that that’s probably naive to expect people not to act like dicks, but hey, like Superman, I can dream of happier times.

You’d do better if you had your own Miracle Machine. Provided you had, like, a sun to power it.

(Uh-oh, I probably lost some people with that scenario)

The series was brilliant and the issue was, well, I agree with the review pretty well.

I think the problem here is with the editorial stance, from both of the big two, that 12-issue miniseries don’t work in today’s market. This issue should have been about four issues long, and it’s Morrison. It would’ve sold everything it needed to, but because of editorial insecurities we’re stuck with rushed genius.

I’d be very surprised if Morrison wrote this “Marvel style”. The traditional “Marvel style” is a short synopsis, usually no more than a couple of pages (some Marvel artists claimed that Stan Lee would, on occasion, give them a synopsis no bigger than a paragraph), describing the basic plot. That synopsis is then given to the artist, who translates it into an actual story in the artwork; the artist then returns it to the writer to script dialogue.

Stan Lee has said in the past that he felt that he could only work in the “Marvel style” because he knew he was working with such talented storytellers; the form has almost completely fallen out of vogue as writers became more involved in the plotting of the comic. For a comic of this kind of importance, both to Morrison and to the DC Universe, I’d have difficulty believing that they worked like that. (Especially given the artist changes over the course of the series.)

I have to agree with Blackagar Boltagon. I have not followed the DCU until recently. Mainly because I was drawn into it by Identity Crisis and the cartoons, but I am still only following it sporadically. Final Crisis completely confused me and was not accessible to me at all. I kept feeling like I was only getting part of the story. It jumped around a lot and at times seemed to move characters around randomly. If I reread the whole thing at once, it may make more sense. It felt like I needed to know too much about the DCU to enjoy it. In comparison, I went to in Identity Crisis knowing very little about the DCU. As disappointing as the ending was, I still came away wanting to know more about some of the characters. I came away from Final Crisis not caring at all.

Brian,
B-Rad not withstanding (that guy’s just a dick seemingly) this:

When I don’t get that same basic level of non-assholeitude from commenters, then I explain that they’re being dumb (because they are, if they can’t express an opinion with being jerks).

Is very unfair to ZZZ. Nothing in that was aimed directly at what you said and I expected better from this blog.

I like Grant and I think he had a fantastic story to tell (A). I just don’t think he did a very good job telling it (B).

Most people in favour of FC are arguing (A).
Most against are arguing (B).

I’m very glad I didn’t buy or download any of this.
cbr’s superman beyond review means I’ll give that a look see, but its been a fairly comic lite year for EDC. all star superman, anything Cooke and supergirl maelstrom for the noto.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people are using the phrase “didn’t make any sense” when they really mean “disjointed” or “scattershot” or “jarring” or “filled with irrelevant, distracted scenes and pretentious gibberish” or “poorly explained and fleshed out” But the defenders of the book are right in saying that it does make actual sense so far as recognizing the basic plot elements that occurred.

This IGN review is the most accurate one I’ve read so far in my humble opinion:

The issue is a bloated, histrionic 37-page braindump with very little connective tissue to bind it, desperately screaming out for a proper editing job.

I have a feeling that over the course of the next few weeks, countless readers will critique this issue using some variation of the phrase “Final Crisis #7 makes no sense.” That’s not an entirely fair assessment. The issue does have a basic A to B thread that’s more or less understandable as far as it goes (namely, Superman arriving on the scene and handling things). The problem with the issue, then, is everything that’s lumped on top of that is disjointed and borderline irrelevant, driven forward with dialogue that’s cringe-inducingly ostentatious, even for Morrison. There’s certainly something to be said for unconventional storytelling and playing with the genre and all that, but Final Crisis #7 is just ridiculous and abrasive with it.

I mentioned editing before because I don’t think this issue is completely irredeemable. Grant Morrison built his career off high concepts, and there are of course a few neat, fun ideas to at least make the average reader raise an intrigued eyebrow. But it all needs to be reined in, streamlined, and given more cohesion to go off as cleanly and effectively as it should have. Ideas and plot threads phase in and out of the issue in fragments as rapidly as panel to panel, and with such frequency that I found myself wondering more than twice if the copy I had was stapled out of order. By the time I reached the credits page, I was actively interested to see if there’d be an editor willing to put his name on the book (or, more accurately, if that editor was just Morrison himself). Perhaps it’s an intentional tactic with a view to reflect the rapidly fraying state of the heroes’ reality, but even so, utter alienation doesn’t make for a fun reading experience.

And here’s the thing of it all that really gets my goat: once you sift through the detritus and one-off Morrisonisms, you get what amounts to a by-the-numbers Superman story and some mumbling about parallel world travel, all with very little immediate connection to the six issues that preceded it other than the fact that Darkseid appears. I don’t buy it as a proper or satisfying resolution to the various threads running through the series, and I don’t even find myself entertained. By the end it goes well beyond labyrinthine and confusing, straight into the realm of frustrating.

On a lesser note, it’s hard to not to contextualize Final Crisis #7, considering it’s positioned as the climax to the DC’s tentpole event. In that capacity, an issue that’s a messy, patchwork affair like this is plainly unacceptable. I don’t subscribe to the school of thought that linewide events must consist of simple plotlines rife with explosions, punching, and A-list cameos. I do, however, think they should be accessible, marketable, and drive the line forward in a way that’s meaningful and exciting. Final Crisis, and issue #7 especially, has to be considered a failure on that level.

The conversation has been more like this:

A: “I don’t understand what happened.”

B: “Well there are clues here, here, and here and keep in mind themes of this, that, and this and so on, so forth, etc, etc.”

A: “Hmm no, you’re just reading too much into it.”

At that point the conversation should stop and everybody should retire to their separate corners.

There was an excellent conclusion threatening to burst out of this issue, but some obvious rewrites coupled with the need to cram everything in (and some scenes less spectacular than they really should have been due to the necessity of rushed artwork, such as the face off with Mandrakk) hurt the issue, I felt. (I could picture some of those scenes flowing a lot better with Jones at the helm, but not a lot we can do about that now).

They should have held off on rushing the issue out. I’m sure we could have dealt with it.

I’ve seen it mentioned in a few places, so I’m curious what people think the rewrites were. Or at least what it is that makes it obvious that there were rewrites.

I’m not arguing, I just honestly don’t see them.

All I know is that I’m glad I skipped this. I love DC in general, and consider myself pretty knowledgeable of their characters and their history. But even this sounded like way too much work to follow and understand. I’ll peek in again when Blackest Night is released, but passing on FC sounds like it was the right thing for me to do…

I really enjoyed this issue, and found it to be a satisfying conclusion to the series as a whole. I also can’t wait to re-read the entire thing in Grant’s suggested order (found at his Newsarama interview), something I plan to do this weekend. I expect that aspects of the story that may have previously not been apparent will reveal themselves on multiple readings.

And for me, this is decidedly a good thing. People are constantly complaining that comics aren’t taken seriously, yet when a series is released that is full and rich enough to reward (perhaps even demand) multiple readings, it’s pegged as “incomprehensible”. Certainly a book that will offer me something new on even the third or fourth time through is more worthy of my $3.99 than something filled with big, dumb explosions that will be processed and forgotten after the five minutes it takes to read.

I feel the conversations going more like this:

A: I don’t understand and I don’t like it.

B: I do understand and I do like it. What’s not to understand?

A: I don’t believe that you understand.

B: I don’t believe I’m having to explain/justify that I do understand.

A: I hate you for understanding.

B: I hate you for hating me.

Captain Marvel: Calm down you two.

Captain Adam: There are no opposites.

B-Rad was definitely being a dick with his comment, but at the same time, Gil Jaysmith’s comment he was responding to was flat out the most ridiculously breathless hyperbole about this series I’ve ever read (although the CBR reviewer who described the plotline dealing with Nix Uotan and Weeja Dell’s “romance” as “resonant” comes close).

I’m fully capable of being moved by art, but to imply that I’m somehow emotionally dead because I’m not moved to tears by a DC superhero comic with plotting that could charitably be described as “scattershot” is laughable.

I’d say it’s more like this:

A: I don’t understand and I don’t like it.

B: I do understand and I do like it. Maybe you’re just dumb?

A: I’m not dumb, it’s the story at fault. I don’t even believe that you understand it yourself.

B: I don’t believe I’m having to explain/justify that I do understand when the problem is obviously that you’re dumb.

A: I hate you for being belligerent and condescending and pretentious.

B: I hate you for being belligerent, close-minded and blaming me for the fact you can’t understand brilliant, progressive genre-redefining comics.

[I think we have a fun little game going on now :D]

And Brian, just to be clear, I’m not saying YOU are among those calling people dumb. You’ve been good about that. But a lot of other commenters here do engage in that.

Even as an ardent FC supporter (or defender), I would never call someone who doesn’t like it “dumb.” Yet I can see the frustration with people who claim not to get it. My take is that most people who are saying “I don’t understand” are not dumb at all, they are just using “I don’t understand” as a shorthand for something else, such as “I don’t like it and thus have made no effort to re-read or figure out parts that initially struck me as confusing on first blush,” or “This does not conform to what I want my superhero comic/major event comic to be”.

These are actually pretty valid points, though I obviously don’t subscribe to them. I’m especially sympathetic to those who think something like Final Crisis should be X, and instead they were given Y. It’s kind of like going to see the latest summer popcorn explosion movie, like Transformers, and discovering its been done in the style of David Lynch. You might like David Lynch movies, but hate Lynchian devices turning up in your mindless blockbuster.

I also kind of find it amusing that the same people who complain about decompression also hate the hyper-compressed Final Crisis. If you decompressed FC, you could probably milk out a sixty-issue run or something….

Well, Brian (and anyone who felt offended), first of all, sorry if I sounded like a jerk. I also didn’t want to sound so maniquean, of course there’s people who liked it or even love it. With that said, I do feel there’s a good chunk of public who are defending it just because Morrison wrote it (a little like what happened with Frank Miller a few years before All Star Batman. People are so eager to believe certain creators can do no wrong that they simply put a blindfold in his eyes and cover their ears to any criticism, and I know, I know, tastes are subjective, what I think is crap, other would love it, but that’s what I feel). Someone said it before in one of the posts, if he would’ve written this series under a pseudonym, the praise and the bashing would’ve probably been much more tame.

And again, in some other post, there’s a note from IGN that resumes much more articulated many of the things I felt with the issue (and the series), like how many time did he waste with certain characters and situations that finally didn’t go anywhere, how disjointed and inaccessible was, or even what you said about Mandrakk. So sorry again, Brian, and maybe you can explain me what was the point of the reduced people in the “ice trays”. What was the point? They were put there while Superman reconstructed the Earth? What happened later?

Glad to see my emotions are hyperbole and/or indications of needing psychological help. “Why ordinary people don’t comment on message boards”, reason #3.
Obviously there’s no way that it could be that Final Crisis actually resonated that strongly with me.
Or that processing real-life things like family health crises and the death of my father could somehow be symbolically mirrored in a comic (written by, oddly enough, someone who is married and recently lost his father).
Or that the horrible absence of something to punch in the first few issues could somehow trigger a stronger response in a reader than seeing a bunch of costumed idiots happily fighting and sorting out the entire universe that way. (“Next issue: Nightwing punches out cancer!”)
Grant was talking about this direction already with what he said about “The Authority”: they can save the universe but can they save your marriage? We all know life is finite and we’re all going to die sometime. But we tend to ignore that fact. Our time of death was brought forward to ‘now’ during Final Crisis, and (for me) it was done in far more dramatic and distressing and personal a way than in previous Crises, where it was all about screaming crowds and superheroes I’d never heard of being incinerated in a big white wall.
And then, because of heroes, because of Superman, our time of death was pushed back to where it belongs.
Final Crisis and All-Star Superman are the only superhero comics I’ve read where love and a song and doing the right thing can restore the light to life.
And where for a moment you can dream about those you’ve lost, living again, inside you.
I take being able to feel that after reading a comic to be a wonderfully good thing.
And thus Final Crisis is the best comic ever just now.
I’m sorry if simultaneously being about 38 and feeling about 14, and admitting it in public, is too much for anyone to accept as the truth, or valid. (Funny, they don’t have that problem at, say, mindlessones.com.)
Anyway, er, “Morrison takes drugs!!!”

I liked Final Crisis a lot. My only problem with issue 7 was that it was mostly told in a flashback.

I’ll be honest. I liked the series. It worked for me. Yes, it took multiple readings to get some of it down, and I think that’s where a lot of the ‘I don’t understand’ comes from. There are people who say “I hate it” or “I didn’t like it” that I have no problem with. Personal taste is personal taste. I’ve seen many movies that I understand quite well, and that other people rave about, but I just didn’t like.

I’m seriously trying not to pick on the “I don’t understand” people…but it’s going to sound like it.

I think they fall into two categories: people not familiar enough with DC to get a lot of the references and those who just didn’t spend the time to read the book.

This is a dense series. For as much as it hit the high points along the way and skipped over the big easy story that…well, didn’t really matter to the actual story…it covers a lot of information. There’s hardly any throwaway, although a lot seems that way at first (just a quick for instance: Sonny Sumo’s story told in the series was used for several different plots points: Earth 51, what happened to Batman, etc.). Morrison does not go out of his way to light things up with flashing signs or notes to say “Batman currently being in the stone age reflects what happened to the original Sonny Sumo as set up in issue #2 of this series.” Those things just happen.

A lot of people read over this issue like they would a standard issue of Teen Titans (not picking on the book, just using an example of a ‘standard’ book). Everything there is laid out nice and neat and tends to wrap up within an issue or two. The plot points are held to a few and even the subplots are kept to a minimum.

Not here…in this series, nearly everything, from panel layout to throwaway lines turn out to have some importance. But if people don’t pay attention…or aren’t familiar enough with the characters…they’ll get confused.

In all honestly, most comics don’t require a lot of in-depth reading. You can toss back a handful on a subway trip without ever working up any mental sweat.

For a TV analogy, I see this as a Lost type of thing. I know several people that say, “I can’t stand Lost–it’s too confusing!” On the other hand, I know plenty of folks that watch the show regularly, have picked up on the plot points and kept mental track of where the balls are…and don’t have a problem with it. Does that mean the first group is stupid? Nope. It just means they didn’t have the attention span or the patience to watch the series.

I see a lot of that here as well.

People are used to Events being BIG unsubtle events. Hulk crushes the superheroes, aliens invade earth (I was actually thinking Invasion, but Secret Invasion works somewhat)….that’s not what happened here. It’s more like people went to a movie that was supposed to be a slam bang action movie and got an art film.

It worked for me. That’s all I can really say.

My only comment to add? I’ve been reading DC since before the FIRST Crisis (Crisis on Infinite Earths… just to make it readily evident) and I have to say I didn’t get a single thing from this series. There were some multiple earths, Darkseid was there, and so was Superman. Some people died (but didn’t), and in the end… I can’t even see the plot, much less “understand” it. Superman Beyond was just sooooo much metafiction that it HURT to read. That was fun when Morrison did it with Animal Man and the Invisibles, but it just got way too deep in there. It wasn’t more serious or intellectual… it was just more dense. I read each issue wondering if I had, in fact, read the previous one. Most of the stuff with Nix Uotan was completely lost… and arguably this is the main plot thread of the story. It was just too buried. In the end, I kinda WISH I had skipped this entirely, but it certainly isn’t worth a re-read.

Lawrence said:
“I liked Final Crisis a lot. My only problem with issue 7 was that it was mostly told in a flashback.”

This got me for the first half of the issue or so too, until I realized that it wasn’t just intentional but sort of cool. Final Crisis is about stories. The issue plays out through people telling stories. I thought it was really neat at least.

And Brian, just to be clear, I’m not saying YOU are among those calling people dumb. You’ve been good about that. But a lot of other commenters here do engage in that.

Yeah, that’s a good point – people are very much NOT clear if their intent is not to take issue with me but rather than some unknown commenter from some other thread or whatever.

If you’re responding to my blog entry and you don’t specify, how could I think it is not meant for me? Particularly when I get those at the same time I’m getting comments from those who specifically ARE talking to/insulting me.

As an aside, it is awfully annoying when I take the time to be nice but get replied to otherwise.

I’m going to have to read through the run of FC again, now that it’s finished, to get a proper sense of it, but I’m left very lost, and very cold.

I will say “I didn’t understand it,” not because I’m dumb (I’m not), nor because I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of DC’s history (I don’t), but because the storytelling was so fractured. It’s great to have it layered enough that if you read it twenty times, you get some sort of higher-level understanding, but you need to be able to at least understand it on the first way through. You don’t need every nuance, but you DO need enough to feel like you got something out of the book, and this book, for me, didn’t provide that.

I like the fact that Sonny Sumo’s fate foreshadowed Batman’s, but the only reason I even understand that that’s Sonny Sumo’s actual fate and not the bizarre ramblings of a writer who seems perpetually whacked-out on LSD is because I read it here. Likewise, the only reason I have the nearest understanding of the plot is because of interviews with Morrison, and I have to say that basic comprehension shouldn’t be something one can only get with the help of the author explaining what you’ve just read.

How was the universe even ending? I missed that part. The skies went red, creation closed in on itself? The only reason I know this is because in narration the characters say “the world ended,” but we never saw it happening.

Reading issue 7, comprehension aside, was terribly difficult, and even understanding the plot (as I believe I do), I think the execution was awful. Superman is terribly frustrated and ANGRY at Darkseid for having killed Batman, but does he get to fight him? No. Do the Green Lanterns? No. Do the Supermen? No. Death just claims Darkseid, because Batman wounded him, yes? Maybe? Did the Black Racer just bump into Darkseid with his scythe, because we was running so hard after the Flashes?

Hawkman and Hawkgirl died? Really? Who got that out of the book? They were doing … something … fighting … maybe, then Hawkman punched something and the panel was mostly yellow. Is that a death? It’s consistent with the in-book attention given to Manhunter’s death, but at least you saw Manhunter die.

I really wanted to dig this, and I thought the issue 1 set-up, while terribly cryptic, was pretty neat. I dug the idea of the backwards-through-time bullet, but once you get to the explanations, including the hokey Antilife equation — Anti-life means being emo? — it fell apart, I think.

Also, Darkseid’s big weapon, the big beam that he threatens everyone with — can you outrun it? — makes a clone of you and sends you back in time while your clone is burned? Or it sends your clone back in time and makes you die? The hell?

I made the joke elsewhere, and I’ll make it here: If I were so high that I didn’t know whose hands were on the end of my arms, I wouldn’t be nearly high enough to understand Final Crisis.

I was semi-satisfied with the conclusion on the whole, however the whole issue smacked of “Let’s get this debacle over, QUICK!” to me. Something in the storytelling just seemed very rushed.

Well, Brian (and anyone who felt offended), first of all, sorry if I sounded like a jerk. I also didn’t want to sound so maniquean, of course there’s people who liked it or even love it. With that said, I do feel there’s a good chunk of public who are defending it just because Morrison wrote it (a little like what happened with Frank Miller a few years before All Star Batman. People are so eager to believe certain creators can do no wrong that they simply put a blindfold in his eyes and cover their ears to any criticism, and I know, I know, tastes are subjective, what I think is crap, other would love it, but that’s what I feel). Someone said it before in one of the posts, if he would’ve written this series under a pseudonym, the praise and the bashing would’ve probably been much more tame.

I don’t really have much of a problem with you thinking that to yourself (because, well, whatever :) ), it’s when it turns into an actual stated position that I take issue with it.

One of the first things (if not THE first thing) I wrote when we started the blog was a complaint about the concept of ascribing motives to the person you’re disagreeing with.

Just argue the positions as laid out – telling someone that they don’t actually believe what they say they believe never leads anywhere fruitful, and since I can tell you I would feel the same way about this comic if it was written by Writer X, then what, I’m lying? See what I mean? Why go there?

And again, in some other post, there’s a note from IGN that resumes much more articulated many of the things I felt with the issue (and the series), like how many time did he waste with certain characters and situations that finally didn’t go anywhere, how disjointed and inaccessible was, or even what you said about Mandrakk. So sorry again, Brian, and maybe you can explain me what was the point of the reduced people in the “ice trays”. What was the point? They were put there while Superman reconstructed the Earth? What happened later?

As you mentioned, he put there while he reconstructed the Earth than put them back afterwards.

That’s fair Brian if you consider what ZZZ was saying to be dickish but I think he made a fair point in a reasonable way. It’s not like he was being confrontational about it.

Ever since the storyline was announced I’ve been looking forward to getting it in trade.
I’ve been following it through a combination of previews/spoilers/byrnestealing.
The first issue whet my appetite, by the third I was having doubts and by the fifth I’d decided to just forget about it.

When the sixth came out I got it and was horrified by how it was structured.
I could follow it and understand it perfectly well but I was left with a feeling of ‘why the hell would someone willingly make it so difficult for me to follow their story/ideas’.

It was an unpleasant and unsatisfying read for me.
I’ve felt the same way about the final issue of Seven Soldiers, which was frustrating as I’d loved the series up to then, but at least in that I got some payoff. I felt the same way about ‘Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man’ too.

It’s really frustrating to be treated like a snark (not specifically from you but on this site and others) when my reading of the book is so radically different from other people’s that I find it hard to reconcile the two.

That said, Gil’s comments on the final issue have won me over quite a bit.
I normally read Morrison in trades so I’m still tempted to pick it up to see if it reads better as a whole – reviewers I respect and usually really agree with can’t be THAT wrong – but I won’t be paying for the hardcover.

In that case, Dunc, I suppose I’m guilty of something I took issue with earlier myself – not being specific enough at who comments were directed at.

Only the first sentence of that comment was directed at ZZZ.

The rest of that comment was general statements.

ZZZ certainly was not being jerkish in his comment. I didn’t like his strawman argument (complaining about people calling him dumb when no one had called anyone dumb at that point), but he certainly was not being uncivil about it.

My apologies, ZZZ, if you took it the same way Dunc did.

The idea of Anthro as “the world’s first superhero” is silly because Anthro was never a superhero at all. He was essentially Caveman Archie (or Caveman Binky, because it’s DC), a teen-humor comic. But I doubt if anyone cares enough about Anthro to protest overmuch about original intent.

But still: the Zoo Crew reveal was awesome, even if their new power seems to be Just Standing There Looking Badass.

On this blog, at least, I haven’t seen anyone on the “liked it” side call the other side dumb. In fact, I’m seeing fans trying pretty hard to explain why they liked it. So where is this coming from?

Distilling what Neal K. said above, there seems to be 3 camps on this issue (discounting the ambivalent and the large number of people who didn’t read it, yet still feel qualified to say something about it):

1) Didn’t get it, didn’t like it.
2) Got it, but didn’t like it.
3) Got it, liked it.

And it’s not really possible for anyone in camp 2 or 3 to have a conversation with the person in camp 1, at least about FINAL CRISIS. Maybe about superhero fiction, the direction of DC comics, or Morrison in general, but not about FINAL CRISIS as a work itself.

Camp 2 and 3 can have a lovely conversation, but camp 2 guy has to be sure he’s not actually a camp 1 person.

Hell, I’m being over-sensitive too.

So, what’s the verdict: as someone who loved issue one, was quite put off by issue six, finds himself generally agreeing with the IGN review (despite having not read all of it. I know, I know) but loves the Morrison of JLA, Animalman, All Star Supes, Seaguy and most of Seven Soldiers should I pick up the trade?

Or should I seek out Superman Beyond instead?
Or just skip straight to the Invisibles for that matter?

Is anyone else getting a wordpress tcp error when they try to post?
Could it have something to do with the firefox plugin noscript?
If so, which scripts should I be allowing?
Sorry for posting this here.

@Anthony Cheng:
A: That was awful! Morrison’s a hack! Fire Didio!
B: I found that really obtuse and unsatisfying.
C: That was the hottest thing since heat.

B & C: Why do you think so?

A: RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

B & C: Dick.

One of the worst issues of any major event comic I’ve ever read. Sloppy, rushed, pretentious, crappy. There were elements that were great, but this truly was Morrison at his worst.

At least we had Mahnke for it. He made a terrible issue tolerable with his pretty pictures.

Uh….

I read it, I liked it, but I’m not sure….

Did Mr. Terrific die?

Uh….

I read it, I liked it, but I’m not sure….

Did Mr. Terrific die?

I’m thinking no, due to Hawkman and Hawkgirl sacrificing their lives to stop Lord Eye. I could be wrong, though!

I don’t have much to add beyond what’s already been said, and since we’re not collecting votes to decide if this issue was just great or at least terrible, I just want to say that if I hadn’t already seen what Mahnke can produce given enough lead time, I would not understand any complaints about his art. These are some of the densest pages of the series, and there were few pages where the figure work or background wasn’t given adequate attention. I enjoyed the pretty drawings at least as much as I enjoyed trying to remember what had happened before and how it related to what was happening now.

Wait, Hawkman and Hawkgirl died?

This is what I mean when I say it’s confused storytelling. I didn’t get that they died from it at all.

I cop to being a dick but if Gill Jaysmiths’ comments are meant to be taken seriously by anyone over eleven years of age I’ll also wear the tee-shirt. These are comic books for crying out loud and if they move you excellent but when they make you break down in the way described here then I’d suggest the person writing needs much stronger therapy than comes from reading comics. (As well as a quick lesson in over-sharing.) I mean, come on-

and none of that changes the fact that Final Crisis was badly executed drek- and a bunch of fan boys who can’t deal with the fact their favourite writer has essentailly lost it and are desperately trying to justify second rate work when there is nothing in the entire series, just like the whole “death of Batman” joke, that can in any way be construed as good or even interesting writing.

Dry your tears and move on little girls. These mega cross-overs fail more often than they succeed and all the tempter tantrums in the world aren’t going to change that. Focus your ire on the climactic issue of Secret Invasion, where it belongs.

I reread this issue, and I was overly harsh perhaps. There are elements that really are fantastic, but god, the compressed storytelling and the rushed pace really killed me. I really feel like this is a story that the DC editorial squad really could have looked harder at. Or at all. This book needs clarity in my mind, but I’m not going to say I was confused by the story, just the structure.

I think this should lead directly into a Morrison Brave & the Bold series set in the Stone Age.

First issue could be Batman & Anthro, then Batman & Tor; Batman & Kong the Untamed; Batman & Gnarrk; Batman & Vandar Adg; Batman & the Immortal Man, Batman & Captain Caveman… Somehow along the way it could even set up Dinosaur Island and the War that Time Forgot.

Okay, I had a thought about this story. Which is kind of the point – if I understand correctly, a lot of this story was about the power of stories and imagination, right? So wasn’t Morrison trying to engage all of us readers by making us think about the story, wrestle with what was going on, use our imagination to fill in the blanks? And by so doing, bring a much greater, more powerful story into creation? In other words, the story I read wasn’t really the same story another reader, with more time and background information, read, because we both had such a different experience and understanding of what we read. The experience of me reading and processing the story was different than when Brian Cronin or T or anyone else read it, and all of that imagination and thinking about the story brought so many new stories into the world, by our wrestlng with what Morrison wrote and what the artists drew. And maybe that’s what Morrison was trying to do all along – create the skeleton of a story that would make us all think about it and use our imaginations to create a myriad of amazing stories.

Or maybe I just didn’t get it.

I don’t get all the vitriol about this book. It comes down to what Abhay Khosla said about secret invasion (which I totally felt ripped off by-why would Bullseye care if Jan was dead?) At the end of the day, different people want different things out of their funnybooks. Final Crisis was exactly what I wanted. Most comics I’ve read this year I haven’t given a second glance. Final Crisis, on the other hand, I have read each issue again and again until the staples threatened to come out. Confusing seems like a fair criticism, it may have even been something I liked about it. Didn’t make sense, on the other hand, is a bullshit criticism since clearly it made sense to some people. I don’t have any encyclopedic knowledge of the DCU. I started reading with ID/Infi crisis and have read the original COIE and a few of the Kirby New Gods stories. I didn’t have a problem following the thrust of the story and I loved a lot of the character moments (esp with the Question). It was fun, big and ambitious. It wasn’t just another stupid cop story; it treated superheroes as superheroes. It had the kind of scope a Crisis deserves. At the end of the day, it was what I wanted. I don’t know what you “incomprehensible” guys wanted, but seriously, just go get that book instead. There’s no law requiring you to read every DC book you hate (I don’t read Titans, much easier not to read a book than to read one). I don’t think you guys are dumb, but neither do I get why you’re so pissed at people who did like it. I guess I feel bad, its like Grant Morrison sent me a Christmas present which created a lot of bad will in the fan community towards him and DC. I’m glad that I got what I wanted, but sad that people seem upset enough to quit the hobby or whatever. I’m just glad I have a book I can read a million times and continue to get more out of it each time, which, at least for this fan, means it hits the bar set by the original crisis. Maybe I’m just not critical enough. Whatever. It was my fave comic this year other than ASS and pretty close to Nova and Herc in enjoyment level. Instead of complaining about people pretending to like this book or whatever, just go find a book you DO like (or can at least fake it).

So wasn’t Morrison trying to engage all of us readers by making us think about the story, wrestle with what was going on, use our imagination to fill in the blanks?

This is perhaps the best excuse I have ever heard for sloppy, ramshackle storytelling.

I dont like the whole “How can you say its incomprehensible when people clearly comprehend it?!” argument. Historically, the word has rarely or never been used to refer to things that were literally impossible to understand, because really, does there even exist a thing which is incapable of being understood? When people say something’s “incomprehensible,” there’s an understood “for me” in there, otherwise the word would pretty much fall out of use altogether. More precisely, I think “It’s incomprehensible” should be interpreted to mean “I don’t understand it but I don’t think I’m at fault for that.”

That said (I haven’t read issue 7 yet), I don’t find Final Crisis at all difficult to understand and I think Brian is right in his complaint about Morrison sometimes OVER-explaining (at least in issue 6). Not that nobody benefits from the exposition, but it sort of kills the tenor set at the start of the series of letting the reader connect the dots himself, as well as choking up the obviously intended rapidity of the narrative (see: Lex/Sivana recap in #6).

More precisely, I think “It’s incomprehensible” should be interpreted to mean “I don’t understand it but I don’t think I’m at fault for that.”

No, we get that.

And us saying we understood it should be interpreted to mean, “Well, how are you NOT at fault for that?”

There were plenty of great scenes, great moments, and – as is typical of Morrison – big metafiction ideas in FC and Superman Beyond. But I didn’t enjoy the way they were strung together, and I don’t enjoy “big ideas” when they start to spiral toward something that can be seen as pretentiousness. Which is a Morrison habit. There’s “art”, and then there’s “artsy”. One of these is good and emotionally moving. The other is needlessly self-referential, self-congratulatory, and – dare I say it – masturbatory on the part of the writer. Morrison leaned seriously artsy with this series.

I guess I’m resolved to stay hot & cold on Morrison. When he’s good, he’s brilliant. When he’s bad, he’s…I guess “decadent” is the word I’m looking for. Parts of FC felt hodge-podge and jarring to me, and I’ll totally grant that maybe a few more issues to space stuff out might have repaired that. The artist-switching never helps. It’s one thing in an episodic done-in-one format, but for a “magnum opus” continuity of feel can be very important. The changing art just reinforces the idea that this book is Morrison’s baby, and so long as his genius gets on the page, it doesn’t matter who draws it. Well, that’s just plain not true.

Sometimes I’m in love with Morrison’s stuff (whole chunks of Seven Soldiers, for example). Other times…not. I want a story that makes me feel like I’ve just been on an awesome ride, not one that makes me envision the writer as lecturing or prattling on about his own brilliance.

Bottom line? Yes, I’ll keep reading Morrison’s stuff. But I get more wary every time.

@Sean: Morrison’s works are generally written at a much higher level than the typical superhero comic. It’s much denser and features much less exposition and much more foreshadowing (which by its nature is mysterious), with a lot more attention to detail even across issues required to get the full experience of the comic. In general, I feel I get almost everything I could out of the typical superhero comic (e.g. BND Amazing Spider-Man) after a single read. With Morrison, it’s two or three.

While it’s easy to say “So they didn’t understand it because they didn’t read it thoroughly enough and didn’t read it enough times? Well who’s fault is THAT?!”, I feel like you really can’t fault someone weaned on the read-it-once-put-it-away-wait-for-next-month typical superhero comics I mentioned a couple of sentences ago when he doesn’t understand FC. Without sounding too clinical, the “correct” way to read Final Crisis is just so foreign to him that he concludes it must be poorly plotted or “incomprehensible.”

Wow, what’s with that B-rad guy? Pretty harsh.

While it’s easy to say “So they didn’t understand it because they didn’t read it thoroughly enough and didn’t read it enough times? Well who’s fault is THAT?!”, I feel like you really can’t fault someone weaned on the read-it-once-put-it-away-wait-for-next-month typical superhero comics I mentioned a couple of sentences ago when he doesn’t understand FC. Without sounding too clinical, the “correct” way to read Final Crisis is just so foreign to him that he concludes it must be poorly plotted or “incomprehensible.”

I think that’s a fair point, and I wouldn’t denigrate someone who didn’t enjoy the book for just that reason. But it’s a subjective reason, and I’m seeing far too many people for my taste (mostly on the CBR forums) trying to make objective critiques about how Morrison can’t tell a story, how people who like it are apologists, etc.

Between Batman dying in the Bat books… dissapearing in Trinity… burnt to a crisp in Final Crisis.. Of course I’m confused. Do I have to start at the begining and write down notes? Too many large events relegated to a few panels. Unclear panels at best. Is Hawkman dead? Looked engulfed in fire to me. But over in Justice Society, he just quit the team. Every other page leaves me with more questions like that one. I’m glad it’s over.

Hey I really liked FInal Crisis. I found issues 1-6 pretty straightforward, but issue 7 was really messed up. Thankfully it was messed up in a good way. It was obtuse and fast paced and a total mind F$%& but it got better on the second read, and I am sure on the third read it will be even better. Overall a cool way to end the series. No one can call it a predictable cliche event story.

Anyways on my second read through only one thing bothered me. The moment in issue one where Kamandi talks to Anthro is never explained and never happens. Seemed like a big scene not to connect. But even if that scene was left on the cutting room floor it is no big deal, just a slight annoyance.

Final Crisis was like a David Lynch’s film. Interesting but confusing at the same time. It is also interesting because of the Final Crisis was for the Fourth Wall; sort of like an end of an era. I have to admit: I did not like Final nor did I hate. It is one of those comic series that is original and makes the audience wonder what will happen next. I loved the idea of the supermen. As for Batman, he is what I think what happen and what will happen: (Keep in mind this is just opinion) RIP was a way of saying the original Batman is gone or is taken a rest. When Batman threw his crowl and cape, it meant that Batman will go on but a new person (more Dick than anyone else) must the mantle. Now, in the long-run (not short), it is an interesting idea. Even though it was explored in KnightFall, we never seen anyone been Batman longer than maybe 3 to 6 months. Who deserves to be Batman? And How will this new Batman be different than the old, in terms of intellgence, strength, and skill? Now the Bruce’s consciousness will be travelling through parallel worlds. I would love to see stories about Bruce Batman throughout these worlds. In a sense, it is alot worst than death. He cannot go back for now. He is struck for now. And it gives us a really interesting question: Will he be Batman in every world? I think there will be some moments where Batman may not want to be Batman and just Bruce. In the long-run, Bruce will never be the same because he will be lost in worlds yet learn so much at the same time.

@Cass

I don’t think it’s unfair to presume that when people say ‘incomprehensible’ they actually mean ‘incomprehensible’. If people mean ‘unnecessarily difficult to understand’ when they say ‘incomprehensible’ they shouldn’t be surprised if others don’t understand what they mean. Too many arguments are due to people not actually saying what they mean. If everyone who said ‘incomprehensible’ had of actually said what they meant then we would have had less dispute.

Trying to integrate Mandrakk into FC was a bit of a fuck-up. Either SB3D is necessary for FC, in which case it should be in the first collection, or it’s supplemental, in which case the entire ending of FC #7 shouldn’t have depended on it.

You know, it really is hard for me to understand what people want from comic creators sometimes. One of the major complaints against crossover events is that most of them tell a bland, formulatic story where everything is spoonfed to the reader and is predictable as hell. Now that Morrison has written a story that does not follow those conventions, the first reaction of the readers is to scream that its not formulatic enough!! I’m not saying everyone has to like it, but the reason for bashing it should not be the fact that its differently written from other event books.

Matthew Johnson

January 30, 2009 at 7:34 am

I don’t really want to get involved in this debate, but could someone please summarize for me what actually happened in this issue? (I didn’t read it under the best of conditions — riding in a cab and then minding a baby — so I’m perfectly willing to admit that I may have missed things.)

I’ve read this issue several times, and only now do I think I’m starting to understand what happened.

And that’s the operative word: I THINK I understand.

I don’t like that in the finale to an event, but there were some fun, cool moments that I did enjoy. All in all, I gotta go with my impression upon my first read, which was that Final Crisis #7 simply didn’t stick its landing.

I just finish reading FC # 7 today, and understand it completely (I think ^_^), its quite simple actually from the first edition till the end it tells the story of how darkseid is finally able to screw up the worlds and nobody’s around (or can’t) to stop him.

For anyone who confuse I think it starts from the ending of Countdown when orion is finally killed his fathers (as foretold, and for someone who doesnt pay attetion this is the red line between countdown and FC), then some of the survivors of apokolips try to ressurect him and in process using the anti life equotion to dominate the New – Earth (I don’t know why they change it to Earth-0 in FC) which in general harboring all the other earth (in here comes the knowledge of 52 and Sinistro Corps comes in handy).

Then the story went on which is where Grant (briliantly) devided all the major superhero so no one is around to save the day (Green Lantern out to oa, Superman in beyond, Batman get caught, Wonder Woman infected, The Flashes were running to the future, Martian Manhunter killed, The Shazam familiy got scattered, Legion is busy with Superboy Prime, and stuff), so basically earth is left only to the minor superheroes and the teen (if you count Captain Marvel jr (still) and Supergirl as major).

so basically the story line of FC is not that complicated, but what makes it pain in the ass to read is when you also read another story outside FC like Batman R.I.P, Superman – New Krypton, JSA – Thy Kingdom Come, Trinity, Rage of Red lantern, etc etc etc. Its almost don’t make any sense in connecting all the events to FC (including R.I.P and mostly Secret Invasion for anyone whose talking about it in here ^_^), so its better to categorize them as before or after FC story.

Finally in my humble oppinion FC as a mega event is adequate (Zero Hour level), good artwork with covers that really suck, dissapointing in a lot of important stuff (like why do radiant and spectre got screw easily by the mandrakk…, where do the others major went ? like Phantom Stranger), with a lot of spin off years to comes (can’t wait for Final Crisis Secret files and Origin).

Oh and I forget to mention does the Superman from the begining of FC # 7 is base on the new US elected president or just something morrison already plan aheand ^_^

I think this was Morrison’s weakest work ( after his superman beyond ). There were just too many plot-holes in the narrative. I’m sure his general idea and direction for FC was great. But he should have left the more detailed writing like panels, dialogues, … to other writers like Johns who would not want to write a weird tale just for the sake of being weird !!!
The deaths of two major league characters ( Batman & Darkseid ) in FC was mishandled quite badly. It would have been more grand and befitting the occasion if the two killed each other instantaneously … rather than having Darkseid go on talking, walking and jiving panel after panel, page after page , then fighting with supes and …… .
It sort of made Batman’s death in Vain & insignificant!!! That’s no way to treat comic-dom’s most popular character’s supposed death.
I feel totally let down by FC, which last year promised to be a magnificent event from the promos and predictions. It had so much potential … but in the end, was mishandled and ended up as just one of those events you just forget or deem unnecessary.
No crisis ought to be deemed unnecessary. Afterall this is the same company that gave us the fantastic “Identity Crisis”. What happened to you all, Mr. Dido ?

Dunc said:
“…I think he had a fantastic story to tell (A). I just don’t think he did a very good job telling it (B).”

I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Finally read this. I liked it quite a bit- though it could’ve benefited from about 10 extra pages, I think. I didn’t find it all that confusing, honestly. A lot of stuff happened, so obviously I got more out of it after reading it a second time, but that’s a good thing, right? And the ending with Batman was damned near perfect.

I couldn’t have said it better myself..

You’ve made that perfectly evident.

Peyz:
You do realize that calling Identity Crisis “fantastic” kind of undermines the rest of your argument, don’t you?

Also,
B-Rad: too cranky and pissed-off sounding to be taken seriously.

Wait, so – my crazy idea about Bruce Wayne sending the Bat sigil forward through time to eventually be sent back by Metron was right? Maybe? Is that what’s happening on that last page?

Anyway, loved the issue. It has its problems, and they’re fairly major ones – I pretty much couldn’t recommend it to anyone who isn’t a DC nerd, for example – but if you’re well versed in the characters and the concepts you can really get into the comics-as-music vibe Morrison is going for.

Greg Huneryager

February 1, 2009 at 2:55 am

What I didn’t pick up upon reading the issue I’ve since had explained to me through various websites so I guess I “get it.” I think it was obliquely staged for no good reason, almost as if Morrison decided to make you read it differently, so you had to deduce what happen. You saw the results of events, you heard people talk about what happened, etc.

Then their is the use of the good old deus ex machina — a godly device to resolve plot threads. This issue has a bunch of last minute use of them from Mother Boxxxxxxxxx to the Miracle Machine. I know the latter was mentioned in #6 but still, it’s use is just lazy writing because ones you throw in the power to do whatever you wish for then what’s the point of the story. Everything bad that happened can be fixed. It is the literal god in the machine.

so my call is bad storytelling and bad plotting.

honestly, i just wish someone put up a webpage explaining all the things in final crisis that the rest of us clearly didn’t get. Because i really want to enjoy this, but the hyper-compression just makes it look sloppy to me. nothing is just spelled out for the reader.

and jack norris? I LOVED Identity Crisis. I like stories that combine the past and present to make something new and original, which Meltzer (and Johns) exceed at. Which is why i WANT to love FC.

To me, Final Crisis is in part a story about the power of the imagination channelled through the craft of storytelling. It’s a meta-narrative; a story about stories. The Miracle Machine is an embodiment of the power we all have to tell stories and create realities without limits. As it turns out Superman is the ultimate comic book writer. In the end he is his own invention.

The story begins with the introduction of fire by Metron to a primitive man (the imagination) and ends with the same man, now aged, dieing “like smoke”…”but the fire burns on”. We then see what appears to be Bruce Wayne/Batman drawing a figure of a bat on the cave wall. The replication of the observed world ( a bat, the orrery?, in symbolic form, changes the observed world through an act of interpretation. In simple terms when you tell a story an audience must interpret it for it to exist and have meaning.

On the one hand Anti-life is the antithesis of imagination. Darkseid has none and therefore desires a universe of undifferentiated by novelty or individuality. There is no imagination or will in his universe only a meaningless sameness.

The monitors on the other hand are becoming differentiated, moving away from identicality towards
individuality. they are ‘infected’ by the worlds (stories) they monitor (read).

Monitor Tahotech says “…our story has become toxic…out of control…we must end it…” A direct comment on the state of the DC Universe? An acknowledgement of the chaos of mutliple imaginations of the many readers and writers all trying to be forced into a coherent narrative that conversely is the opposite of imagination.

If I took anything away from Final Crisis it’s the understanding that imagination is boundless, that the possibilities of storytelling has no limits and that we each have our own stories to tell and that they can all exist together despite their contradictions and inconsistencies.

Dan Larkin said: “Finally read this. I liked it quite a bit- though it could’ve benefited from about 10 extra pages, I think. I didn’t find it all that confusing, honestly. A lot of stuff happened, so obviously I got more out of it after reading it a second time, but that’s a good thing, right? And the ending with Batman was damned near perfect.”

Agreed 100%.

The fact that the last page leads directly to the cover of the first issue is a great touch, and goes back to Morrison’s recurring theme of circular lives/narratives…

(I also love that the monitors’ end came the same way as the Invisibles’…)

To illustrate how the issue confused me, personally, three examples:

1) I had no idea that I was supposed to understand that Hawkman and Hawkgirl had died, until I read this thread.

2) I thought the issue ended with Batman not in the past, but in the future, with a dying elderly Kamandi, not Anthro. Why did I think this? Because Morrison said that Kamandi would appear on the last page. Apparently he changed his mind at some point, but the old dying guy isn’t identified by name. I suppose if I went back and looked at the caption boxes from the issue I read nine months ago, that might have tipped me off, but instead, it was again this thread that schooled me on who this was supposed to be, and when Batman was.

3) Something I’m *still* completely unclear on is the Frankenstein sequence. The caption boxes, which may or may not be narration by Wonder Woman (that’s not clear), say that “Morticoccus…designed to strip Earth’s heroes of their powers, had no effect on a living dead man. And the villains had been inoculated.” First, when did this inoculation take place? Second, why, on the very next page, does it show Supergirl, Stargirl, Red Tornado, and Power Girl all fighting (with their powers) alongside Frankenstein? Is there a virus loose, or not? Why is it not affecting those heroines? What’s the point of the darn caption box explaining Frankenstein’s specialness when the next page shows him not being all that special?

[...] am amazed at the number of positive reviews I have seen for Final Crisis. I have seen it both strongly recommended and even hailed as brilliant. [...]

I guess I just didn’t feel as engaged as the other issues. Issue 1 felt much like a murder mystery in dcu, I loved the hopelessness and despair prevalent throughout all the issues especially in issue 4 (I read that issue many a times). Issue 7 actually felt to me less like the art film I’d liked and more like the weird blockbuster movie with lots of CGI all over the place but not very interesting (to me) as solid or consistent storytelling and something I wanted over with ASAP. I didn’t really care for the detour into the multiverse and multiple supermen or the weird vampire thing (which I’d thought was Mr Mind), or the miracle machine. And I kinda laughed a bit at Monitor Tahotech or whatever his name is. And Apokolips reborn as New Genesis? I could be wrong but I thought that one of the central tenets to their story was one of duality or cosmic balance (good vs evil) but that might be my assumption or maybe doesn’t matter to the 5th world.
On a different note throughout this I keep wondering about Morrison’s description of FC as the Lord of the rings of the DCU and wonder if that analogy, either literal or not (probably not), holds up (that’s a serious question I’m wondering).

I think you’re all being too nice. Final Crisis is an example of why you DON’T give artsy writers like Morrison the keys to the kingdom. For his genre, I’m sure this is a masterpiece. But when you deal with company wide crossovers, you need to be clear and make sense. Not everyone is going to read EVERY issue. A child should be able to pick up one and understand it. This series went completely over my head and I DID read every issue. What was the over all purpose of this series? I keep hearing that they’ve been trying to correct things since the first Crisis. Just when they finally start to get their house in order, they screw it up again! To me the DCU made sense BEFORE the Final Crisis, now I don’t recognize it anymore. I believe he tried to do too much in too few books. I dare say that I’ve always AVOIDED reading anything by Mr. Morrison writes, because of his unique style. When I heard he was doing this series, I was pretty concerned. I can now say that my concerns were justified. I’m going to continue to read DC for a little while longer in the hopes I can make some sense out of this insanity or it just might be time to give up comic books.

I don’t think a child will understand Crisis on Infinite Earths or Infinite Crisis if they only pick one particular issue a Mega even crossover should be wide and huge, thats why they called it “Mega Crossover” :).

But I do agree with concepts of Miracle Machine was slightly make the story kinda pointless.

What I meant was that for example, I myself grew up on the old Superfriends cartoons. When I started reading comic books, I at least had a frame of reference and could get up to speed pretty quickly. I imagine it might be a similar experience with those who picked up comics after the more recent Justice League and Legion of Superheroes .cartoons. You could get up to speed pretty quickly. It goes back to the reference earlier that DC would be trying to attract new readers. If a comic book “veteran” like myself is having trouble understanding this and the effect its going to have on everything that follows, then what about the new readers?

@Riczar: Funny thing is, at least with the first few issues, it wasn’t the new readers who were complaining that they were lost and confused. It was the veterans. Most of the new readers said they understood it just fine. I came up with a theory that (up to a point) more knowledge of the DCU makes it harder to understand Final Crisis.

You bring up something in your earlier comment that I’ve been wondering about and actually asked on my blog on Monday: If you don’t like Final Crisis, why would it make you want to drop all comics?

Not ALL comics, just DC. Frankly, Final Crisis #7 was so hard for me to understand, I’m not even sure if things were “fixed” in the end. The threat of universal annihilation may have been thwarted, but things still look pretty screwed up. I read your blog and my response is that things were fine until #7. As someone here stated earlier the delays allowed us to forget some details. So I would put myself in the middle category, I am very familiar with JLA, JSA, Titans, and the Legion. I then branch out from there.

Never gave up on DC dude ^_^, I know they screw up so many times likes Final Night, Day of Judgement and hell even Death and Return of Superman kinda crap, but most of the time they also did some excellent work, nothing can compared to the way I felt when I finished Crisis on Infinite Earths, Batman War Games, Our Worlds at War, mega collection of Infinite Crisis and sinistro corps war.

So they did a little ackward story in Final Crisis, which I still think not that bad but far less then what we hope for considering all the blown up promotion before and screw things up a little more on their universe, but I’m sure there will be so much we can hope to come in the future (like Dark lantern stuff). Besides lots of comics are more trash then DC’s :).

and no I’m not working for DC Comics if anyone asking ^_^….

Yes….well then.

I have spent quite a bit of time over the last two years acquainting myself with the DC universe. Websites, Wikipedia, DC Encyclopedia, Crisis, Infinite Crisis…

I read the main FC series. I read the Beyond issues. I’ve been reading Batman and Batman DC. I’ve been reading the whole New Krypton saga..all the titles.

FC is baffling. Is Mandrakk motivating all this? Wait…oh…Darkseid was just a stooge? The “final” crisis for the orrery…ok…I got that…and it took seven issues of bafflement to say it?

The “Spock’s Death” of Batman in the cave…that was cool. It also ties into the “disappearance” in the main Batman titles. But overall I guess I fall into the “not cool enough or smart enough” crowd. I kept feeling like there were pages missing that would explain what the hell was going on.

This series had so much visual impact…but no sense of linearity. And really no great dialog. I want to be one of the cool kids…but I am disappointed.

God Emperor Joker

July 6, 2009 at 11:33 am

Gotta admit, haven’t read much of this yet, but seems a damned sight better than “Identity Crisis”, I just love how comic readers can never agree to like anything. Some of you need some lessons in perspective,too. I see so many people who just crap all over everything these days. Really?! Have you nothing better to do than go online and bitch, constantly. Doesn’t seem like too much fun, but whatever floats your boat, I suppose.

You really need to read it more than once, and who has that kind of time?

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