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The End of scans_daily?

Followers of the popular internet comic book scan site scans_daily discovered recently that the site had been suspended by its host, LiveJournal.

Just yesterday, a status update was posted (here is the link) saying basically that LiveJournal has suspended the site (and by suspended here, we basically mean ended) for violations of the LiveJournal terms of service, and really, from the terms of service as quoted, as they themselves note, scans_daily really does not have any recourse against LiveJournal.

It’s an interesting situation. Recently Marvel writer Peter David reported the site to Marvel over some scans of the latest issue of X-Factor (the scans were removed before Marvel had a chance to take any action). Who knows if his report had anything to do with the site’s suspension. It very easily could be a coincidence. Then again, it might have been a motivating factor. I do not know.

In any event, my question mark in the title is a bit misleading, as the site certainly WILL be back in some form or another. In a bit of an interesting twist, the site was JUST about to debut new, stricter rules about what could be posted (as I think they clearly acknowledge that some of the scans on the site were more than a little bit past the idea of “fair use”), so when they start back up, they’ll likely have these new rules in place. I wonder if that will be enough to avoid future trouble for them?

210 Comments

I’ve noticed that a lot of the people who post and comment over at Scans_Daily don’t actually like comics. Or at least mostly complain about them.

Technically, the community was established to talk about slash and really only became what it did after Full_Scans_Daily was nuked for posting entire issues without permission.

[…] Brian Cronin speculates that a report by Peter David to Marvel about X-Factor pages being posted may have had something to do with the shutdown. Based on David’s comment, he has the mistaken assumption that if he can remove free copies, all interested readers will buy the comic instead. Many companies assume similarly, that any free taste is a lost sale. That’s rarely true. […]

wow. first he yells at bendis for spoiling stuff on siuntres’ wordballoon show, and now he’s shutting down scans_daily? does anyone else think that if layla miller bust out of 616 and told peter david, “i know stuff” he’d get real pissed at her for having spoiler knowledge?

I heard there were dramatic goings-on in X-Factor that PAD wanted to keep secret, and I didn’t really care. I saw a couple of spoiler pages on Scans_Daily, and X-Factor got added to my pull list.

As amusing as it is to watch PAD tilt at the spoiler windmill, I think he’s making a mistake.

I will say that it’s been a lot easier to avoid X-Factor spoilers over the last two months. Which is nice as a reader but it’s not really affecting whether I’d get it or not. What IS affecting whether I’d get it or not is the dynamism PAD’s injected into the book. If he can keep it up, then sales will actually go up for a non-event/non-relaunch/non-variant reason which is UNHEARD of in 2009.

And PAD shows up to personally whinge and moan in 3..2…1…

[…] that “we don’t want this to turn into a witch hunt,” speculation already has begun as to who filed the complaint with […]

[…] to this report at Comics Should Be Good, longtime favorite Scans_Daily is gone, its account suspended by […]

I confess I really don’t see the complaint here against Peter David. This work is his bread and butter and the site was pretty clearly in the wrong by any standard you apply. It’s not like the Author’s Guild bitching about used bookstores or something like that where there’s an argument to be made for the alternative. It’s a web page that was posting entire pages of copyrighted content so close to the release date of the new material they posted that they served as a spoiler site. Of course they got shut down. If it wasn’t Peter David it would have been someone else.

Just because bootlegging stuff is so huge in fandom doesn’t ever make it legal. It’s certainly not something fans are entitled to.

I really have to respond to what commenter Greg said above.

I’ve been a member of Scans_daily for a while now, and my experience has always been very positive. Sure, there’s some bitching and complaining, but that’s no different anywhere else. I can guarantee you that I, and many, many others would not be BUYING comics if it weren’t for scans_daily. It’s the huge, enormous love of comics that keeps us all coming back, and that community was an enabler.

The community was created with discussion and joking about homosexual subtext in mind, but it was more generally about “comic book squee”–pages or panels from comics that people liked and wanted to share.

As for fullscans_daily, it was a relatively small community compared to scans_daily, and I noticed no difference in the size or number of scans posted there once fullscans_daily was gone. As long as I’ve been there, scans_daily has always had strict rules about not posting more than half of a story, and as Brian Cronin points out here, the moderators were about to instate stricter posting rules.

I like that people who did not frequent S_D think they know what S_D is — you go to any comics forum on the internet and you’re going to come away thinking the participants within HATE comics. That’s how our community works — whinging and whining and criticizing is the part of the function of being a fan, it gives us the feeling that we have a say; it’s the act of participation. I just find it ironic that a community on a website filled with primarily women fans, gets nuked, and people applaud the turn of events.

And Greg, any Greg, welcome to the internet! You think the people who were trolling bookstores shouting “DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD!” out of the back of vans should be arrested? Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t actually make it illegal. And the forum threads that pop up, directly after a book launches to discuss the story twists and plot within, if they don’t have pictures, that makes it okay?

For the record: S_D does not allow its users to post full copies of scans, and they expressly prohibited it. It’s primary purpose was to share and discuss and exhibit a medium they loved, and wanted others to experience. It was possibly the best pimp tool I had to get friends non-comic ones and comic ones alike into new titles or characters or book. The number of non-comic friends that I PERSONALLY witnessed buy comics as a direct result from what they found on S_D, is actually, at this point, too large to even count. And these were friends who were girls, who never had interest in comics before, but as a livejournal comm S_D was a space they were comfortable in because it didn’t have the clubhouse feel of message boards, and they didn’t feel out of place or unwanted.

I don’t think the fact that composition of S_D was significantly different from the majority of comics communities online has a conscious part into the weird, hateful backlash around it, but I do think it needs to be noted, and I do think it plays a part, on some level, of the backlash.

Caveat: I was a regular scans_daily poster, although most of the stuff I posted was either previews provided by companies to other sites or webcomics or covers for solicitations.

I confess I really don’t see the complaint here against Peter David. This work is his bread and butter and the site was pretty clearly in the wrong by any standard you apply.

If you actually read the thread listed above, you’ll see the most common response was “Scans_daily got me to buy comics I never heard of before.” I suspect that the post PAD complained about would have led to more sales of X-Factor, because of the ending. (The people who didn’t see it had scans_daily never existed just would have seen it in the first place because they wouldn’t be reading comics or wouldn’t be reading X-Factor and have no reason to join.) I respect people who don’t agree with this viewpoint (and it’s hard to argue without any sort of facts.)

This discussion has happened before, with the whole Napster thing. In the end, the most effective solution wasn’t to punish the people illegally downloading, but rather to set up an iTunes like system to make distribution more convenient. The people who got stuff solely from scans_daily will now get stuff from various Torrents (which are much harder to control) or just by going to their comic shop and reading stuff without paying for it.

Scans_daily might not conform to the letter of the law, but it certainly does a whole lot more than spoil and mock comics – instead, I’d argue than if you look beyond the snark & easy pot-shots you’ll find some truly dedicated aficionados dissecting the workings & genius of past eras of comics, sharing obscure gems & spotlighting different artists & styles from across the world. In a way, it’s not very different from a blog like this, only more open & democratic. Furthermore, sites like the Beat have linked to artists master-posts (one on Ty Templeton recently, I believe) & respected creators like Warren Ellis & Gail Simone have been known to pop in, post & participate. Personally, I think it’d be a shame for it to disappear – it inspired me at least to make a couple of well-informed purchases. Just saying.

Not all members were like that, Greg, or even most, but jerks always have the loudest mouths because they think people care to listen to them.

scans_daily changed my comics buying habits from $0-15 per week to about $20-35 because it got me interested in series I would have otherwise never considered. After almost a decade away from comics, s_d helped ease the path back in. Nothing was ever spoiled for me that I couldn’t have found out myself by walking into a comic shop, picking up an issue, and putting it back on the shelf. The mods were very strict and *dilligent* about yanking any posts that violated the rules and posted more than was allowed. It was better publicity (esp. for smaller presses) than CBR and Newsarama combined.

I’m normally not this kind of person, but this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I don’t think I can forget it when I decide which creators to follow and not follow in the future.

Nearly every entry I ever read on s_d in the past few years was a bunch of spoiler pages completely removed from context while a 300+ post comment thread of people who had never read the actual issue whined and ranted about how whoever wrote that scene was an incredibly horrible homophobic misogynist and this issue was the worst and most disrespectful thing to ever happen to the character in question. Any efforts to provide context for the scene were either shouted down or completely ignored so as not to get in the way of the daily two minute hate.

I’m sure it may have been a fun place for discussion when it started out, but by the end it had devolved into one of the worst, most insular parts of comic discourse on the internet.

Peter David’s own blog posting on the matter: http://peterdavid.malibulist.com/archives/006775.html

While I wasn’t a member of s_d, I have been visiting the site nearly daily since I first discovered it in mid-2006. Back then, I was on a ten-year-hiatus from American comics and slowly growing disinterested with manga. Since then, I’ve needed a new bookcase to put the vast amount of trades that I’ve picked up thanks to s_d–series from Runaways to Ex Machina, Iron Fist to Manhunter to Street Fighter. That the community is just gone for whatever reason leaves me feeling empty; for all the wanking about implied or perceived misogyny in some threads (I learned very quickly whose posts I should avoid if I just wasn’t up to reading threads full of arguments), it was a community and I loved being involved in it in my own way.

I’m not going to stop buying comics because of this; I want to pick up Captain Britain and M13 and Incredible Hercules and a few other titles when I can. But with that well of recommendations and conversation (and all that entails) dried up for now, myself and maybe others might just find themselves unanchored to comics after some time and simply drift away.

Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t actually make it illegal.

It has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes. I’m just being pragmatic. In fact, since someone brought up the old Napster argument, I’ll point out that that one was just as stupid and played out the same way– it was largely a lot of fans whining that their source of free stuff got cut off when the copyright holders got angry about it, there was a lot of false-entitlement bullshit from people who were angry about their toys getting taken away but there was no actual legal ground for them to stand on… and eventually a system arrived that served mostly the same function and also allowed creators to be paid.

I imagine that most people who patronize bootleggers in any entertainment area are likely to be hardcore fans and thus spending more money. But so what? That argument is laughable when it’s trotted out as a reason for a creator to allow theft to go on. “I buy a lot of OTHER stuff so I should be allowed to steal this one for free.” Yeah, an author who’s seeing his book posted online is really going to go for that.

I’m just SHOCKED that Peter David misunderstood something, took something personally, and tattled. I didn’t use the site, but I just wanted to register my utter shock.

There are a great number of comics I have bought after reading part of them on scans daily and finding out they were worth my money. There are just about no comics that I have read on scans daily and decided that now that I have read them I don’t need to buy them.

Comic readers are a hard copy collecting people, in this way scans daily was more like a drug dealer, where the first hit is free, then a download site where everything is free and it convinces you not to pay for anything anymore.

That being said, even if the infringement on scans daily was not a kind that is dangerous to comic publisher’s business model, they must police these kind of infringements. If they do not, and a more serious infringer comes along that actually is selling scans of there comic books, that infringer can raise the publishers’ lack of enforcement of intellectual property rights against scans daily as a reason that the publishers’ intellectual property rights should not be enforceable against them. It’s kind of a slippery slope analysis but these things do happen in real life.

Well crap. Now how am I going to know what to buy?

Add me to the list of people who bought a LOT of comics thanks to scans_daily. While i didn’t follow up on the Marvel/DC stuff, there was a ton of wealth to be found about smaller publishers comics and offbeat stuff even from the big ones. Stuff you may sometimes read about in Wizard in their indie comics section, but I could go an dexplore new stuff DAILY.

My bookshelf (well, -shelves actually) full of comics would have been more sparsely populated if not for scans_daily.

Well, I didn’t care much about the big publishers before and I certainly do not care more about them now.

Eventually a system arrived that served mostly the same function and also allowed creators to be paid.

I’m just saying, if Peter David and others actually want to accomplish something, they’d be much better off trying to convince Marvel/DC to come up with such a system than in shutting down scans_daily. Unfortunately, as a writer, he’s in a much better position to address this issue than any fans.

If he’s actually serious about his desire to triple sales of X-Factor by next year, an improved distribution system is literally the only way to go.The problem with comic book sales isn’t so much that people pirate comics, but that the current distribution model is heavily flawed, requiring an ever shrinking group of hardcore fans to pay larger amounts of money for any comic book content (and not providing any marketing for 90% of that content.)

Triple the sales of X-FACTOR?!? Hahahahahahahahahaaaa!!!!!

I’ve never heard of scans_daily, but I will say this: X-Factor is consistently awesome. I can see both sides of the argument, though, it’s the Napster Effect. If you get content for free, will you end up buying more stuff now that you’re exposed to its awesomeness, or will you just hoard free content?

“If you get content for free, will you end up buying more stuff now that you’re exposed to its awesomeness, or will you just hoard free content?”

I can only speak for myself, but I can not (or at least refuse to) take my computer into bed to read some comics before bedtime. I like physical things.

Scans Daily liked comics just fine — loved them, in fact — but things that you love can drive you up the wall sometimes.

I did, however, enjoy how different the comics they loved were from, say, the ones that posters here loved. Final Crisis was a perfect example. Most people there hated it, and the people who loved it protested vehemently. On this blog it seemed like the proportion went the other way, although the dynamic played out very similarly.

And yeah, almost all of the titles and trades I buy now I was turned on to originally from samples posted there, when I had pretty much given up on The Big Two. Having stopped frequenting my local comics shop years ago because I was tired of blowing money on stuff that it turned out I didn’t actually like, it’s unlikely that I would have been turned on to Agents of Atlas, Secret Six, Iron Fist, Incredible Hercules, Shazam: Monster Society of Evil, the current runs of Wonder Woman and Thor, The Twelve, Dr. 13 or Marvel Adventures: Avengers otherwise. Scans Daily got me buying comics again.

Scans_Daily was not a pirate site and people did NOT post entire books for free there. It was a review site. Was it snarky? Yes, frequently. It was just as often filled with posts in which people raved about their favorite old or new comics, writers, and artists. The community was a lot of things, but it was not illegal.

Most people posted only panels or a couple of pages. It was self-policed and the mods did make posters amend posts that exceeded the community’s page-count rule. When all of this happened, the mods were actively revising the page count rule to reduce the number of pages allowed to ensure that the posts would abide by fair use considerations. Too late for that now.

Another battle between “we own the content!” and “we buy the content!” in which no one wins. Feh.

‘Scuse me now, off to read Something Positive and SPQR Blues.

With all due respect, Greg Hatcher is mistaken as to the facts. Greg, I suspect that based on hearing a brief and vague description, you may be assuming scans_daily was a torrent or file hosting site of some sort. Otherwise, your comparison to Napster is inexplicable. I don’t know how often you yourself saw scans_daily itself, if ever. On the one hand, I have to assume you wouldn’t be impugning it without having seen it for yourself…but on the other hand, I can’t see how you’d reach such a conclusion based on first-hand experience.

In any event, as a faithful reader and poster for several years now, please know that scans_daily was a venue for review, discussion, and (yes) scholarship. A great deal of the posts were about public domain comics. Did you know there were comics during WWII that depicted Japanese-American internment camps in an unfavorable light? I wouldn’t have known that either were it not for scans_daily. What about a long, thoughtful discussion of racism and Robert Kanigher’s weird Lois Lane story “I Am Curious (Black)” informed by people getting to read six pages from it, as you yourself might do in the classroom? We had that in scans_daily. A lot of the discussions there were more scholarly and informed than you’d find anywhere else in the comics blogosphere. I daresay it rivalled this very blog for intelligence and informed insight. You missed something great there, Greg.

Whole books were not posted there. No matter how many times people claim otherwise, this is a fact. The setup was basically the same as “A Year of Cool Comic Book Moments” albeit writ on a slightly larger scale. Two pages to establish a scene, or three or four, rather than one. NOT whole issues. The goal was to motivate sales, not preempt them. Again, if you didn’t actually read and follow the discussion there, you have no way of knowing whether or not this was the case. And unfortunately, LiveJournal has now destroyed the evidence so you’ll never be able to know if my description was accurate.

One can easily imagine some misguided writer or artist complaining that CSBG on the basis that “these guys are posting pages from my work without permission and letting people read them for free!” and demanding that the whole thing be shut down. Imagine your efforts to stay calm and explain the actual situation reasonably while someone is spreading wildly exaggerated accusations against CSBG and you may even feel some bit of empathy for those of us who feel offended now.

Finally, all we know is that someone brought a complaint against scans_daily and LJ pulled it all down, without giving the moderators a chance to rebut the charges, without an investigation or finding of fact or chance of appeal. Just accusation and boom, you’re convicted. This is standard for the Internet. But is that really the system we want to endorse?

“I’m just SHOCKED that Peter David misunderstood something, took something personally, and tattled. I didn’t use the site, but I just wanted to register my utter shock.”

Not that I expect you to ever miss a chance to take a shot at Peter David, Joe, but he didn’t misunderstand anything. He became aware of copyrighted material he had written being disseminated without permission and informed the copyright holder. Nothing personal about it.

I asked this at Johanna Draper Carlson’s blog, and I’ll ask it here:

“Scans_daily got me to buy comics I never heard of before.”

Where’s the hard evidence that sites like scans_daily and Pirate Bay benefit the industry more than they hurt? Like hard evidence, not comments like the one above.

B/c really, as those sites become more prevelant, aren’t we seeing overall sales go down….down….down….?

Fair enough, RAB; I don’t actually have a horse in this race. It’s just that the arguments I’m seeing here were not nearly as reasoned as yours. They all seemed to be the Napster-style “I KNOW it’s illegal but…” entitlement thing, an attitude which has always annoyed me.

But in this day and age it’s really not THAT hard to set up a new site. If it is as blameless as you say and it has a fanbase that devoted then I imagine it will be back.

Well crap. Now how am I going to know what to buy?
————-

Use your head?

Except it apparently falls under fair use. And it was his fans, such as they are, doing it and spreading the word about a book they like.

Not that I ever expect David to miss a chance at being petty.

Wasn’t Peter David one of those blowhards who was ranting about trades a couple years ago?

Mr. David was engaged in a heated discussion with the comm members prior to his reporting the copyright violation, insisting that a member who used the term ‘DIAF’ before David had ever appeared on the community had made a threat against his life. So while he was within his rights to report the post for copyright, I doubt that there was nothing personal involved in doing so.

My favorite post from PAD’s blog:

“Oh, no! The Internet is angry! We’re doomed!

Wait, no, it’s already been distracted by a video of a cat singing the theme to Firefly…”

haha

Did David talk about his blood being splattered all over his daughters? That’s a classic.

> Use your head?

Eh, what is that supposed to mean?
Am I supposed to know all comics that exist on this earth and judge each and everyone of them?

Sorry, but my day only has 24 hours.

Eh, what is that supposed to mean?
Am I supposed to know all comics that exist on this earth and judge each and everyone of them?

Sorry, but my day only has 24 hours.
————————

It means ask your friends. Ask your lcs owner. Ask the message boards. Read previews.

It means actually do some research on your investment.

I think people who are comics readers all too often forget that it is not an easy hobby to just stumble into, simply asking your LCS owner and friends is not going to yield the same results as eight thousand passionate fans posting and showing you what you’re missing out on.

Scans_daily was an inclusive community in an exclusive industry.

I think people who are comics readers all too often forget that it is not an easy hobby to just stumble into, simply asking your LCS owner and friends is not going to yield the same results as eight thousand passionate fans posting and showing you what you’re missing out on.
—————–

Again, show me the proof that shows that scans_daily has benefitted the industry more than it has hurt it (or had zero effect).

If you can, I concede the point.

I have no idea either way, Jacob, but can you prove that it’s hurt the industry? The “sales numbers” from comics are notoriously inaccurate to begin with. This just doesn’t seem like something that can be proven either way.

I have no idea either way, Jacob, but can you prove that it’s hurt the industry?
————————-

The s_d folks are claiming it does help. Burden of proof is on them.

This isn’t a court of law, Jacob. Why so worked up about it? Some people that used a site are disappointed it’s gone. They say it helped them find comics to buy. We can’t prove it either way. Oh, well.

Well, this sucks! I’m a big fan of S-D. So, I haven’t posted content, but I have posted comments. I was a member and visited almost daily.

It’s sad when people do this (PAD or whoever is responsible). You know, I have spoken to a HELL of a lot of people over the years who have seen scans on S-D and other places, and have added books to their pull list because of this. Myself included.

For most people, its not about getting free issues (and since when have that many pages been posted anyway?!), it’s about talking about the story and art and using said art for fandom. Icons, banners etc etc. I mean, they put the art and stories out there, with the way images are on the web today, yes, people are going to use them, and with comics, it’s not in a bad way, it’s to show love and support for the series.

There have been plenty of times when an issue has came out on the Wednesday and as we in the UK don’t get issues until Thursdays/Fridays/Saturdays, I could have just read the issue via scans online, but I didn’t! I wait until my issues arrive in the post. I TOO, LIKE TO HAVE THIS ISSUE IN MY HANDS. And I have spoken to many others who feel this way.

Wow, after not buying comics for 10+ years S_D got me back into comics. Granted, I’m not a big buyer. But reading the discussion and learning more about the background about the industry (writers/inkers/artists…) I got back into it. It was cool to have a few of the writers comment on the posts about their comics too. Heck, that made me feel even more connected to their work. This really sucks.

I can understand some of the issues. But really, full issues were not posted. And the cost/benefit cries that Jacob keeps bringing up can not ever really be addressed. What? Can YOU figure out a way to test that idea? (Someone did bring up the question of how posting a few pages is different than going to the LCS or grocery store and reading the comic and then putting it back on the shelf?)

And saying to the other person to ask friends or the LCS owner, etc for recommendations….Please. Like my taste is anything like my friends’. S_D let me see a few panels and decide if I wanted to get the rest. Also, some of the stuff people posted IS NOT AVAILABLE ANYMORE!!!! (No reprints, no TPB, or heck, maybe some of these people live a long distance away from a LCS.)

I do hope it comes back in some form. I already miss it. I miss the hilarious snarky comments…They were a bright spot in my day.

Greg — way to miss the point of what I said:

I never said what S_D was doing was “illegal but awesome.” The NAPSTER argument does not apply because S_D never posted full scans, simple as that, and what they were doing was NOT illegal. Period. Guess what? People can post bits of copyrighted material all the time. It’s called fair use. Discussion of a work will often spoil the ending. Guess what? THAT’S PART OF DISCUSSION. That’s part of a lively community that likes to talk about the things they love. The only difference being is that I get the distinct impression you just didn’t like WHO was participating in the discussion. Wonder why that is.

The ironic thing, is the twist at the end of X-Factor issue #1 was posted on S_D, and DC person that I am, I thought, “Well THAT’S cool,” expanded my horizons, and added the title to my pull list at my LCS. I guess I should take this moment to apologize to PAD for my method of discovering his work.

Jacob, would you like me to show you a photo of all the comics I have bought since discovering scans_daily? That’s the only proof I can personally give you, other than the crapload of annecdotes from members repeating the same thing: s_d got them to buy comics.

Count me as another person who got back into comics thanks to Scans_Daily. Thanks to the postings there I now collect JSA, Green Lantern, Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, Secret Six, and Tiny Titans. I also really enjoyed what a fun community it was. There was a real feeling of comradity there.

I’m a little sad about Peter David these days. I’ve actually followed his work since before I was into comics through his Star Trek novels. It’s not about him reporting the copywrite abuse; he absolutely has every right to do that. Rather, it’s the way he’s reacting to all this. The comments by him on his blog all seem so contemptious. Combined with his recent statements about Frank Miller, I get the feeling like he thinks all us comic readers are pathetic losers unworthy of being treated with any respect or dignity. Then again I get that feeling from a lot of comic book professionals these days. I’m sure not going to be supporting anything Mr. David does in the future; I’m not even renewing my subscription to Comic Buyer’s Guide at this point.

The only difference being is that I get the distinct impression you just didn’t like WHO was participating in the discussion. Wonder why that is.

I really don’t know why you are getting that impression, so I guess we’ll both wonder. The site was shut down ostensibly for violation of copyright, posting more than what is covered by a fair use standard. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not there were full books posted. That’s not the legal standard. There have been several people here familiar with scans_daily who’ve conceded that yes, that case for copyright violation is there to be made, it is a fair assessment, but no damage was being done so what’s the harm?

That’s the Napster argument. It was dumb then and it’s dumb now, because ‘people really liked it’ isn’t going to sway anyone whose job it is to enforce that sort of thing, and it especially isn’t going to sway an author who feels his work is being stolen.

Your argument, as it happens, is even dumber — “people spoil things all the time, shutting down scans_daily isn’t going to stop it.” As far as I can tell no one’s arguing against that either.

My point — which you have consistently missed, which makes it even more ridiculous to have you snarling at me about missing things — isn’t that I disapprove. It’s that I think it’s absurd for anyone to think those arguments will actually make any difference to the creators or the enforcers of copyright. It still boils down to entitlement and “my toys were taken away.”

Honestly, I don’t actually care that much. I’m right there with Brian when he says in the post that it’ll probably be back in some form.

I’m just surprised at all the vitriol towards Peter David. Isn’t your real beef with the posters that pushed it so far beyond ‘fair use’ boundaries that someone felt it was too far? The place was called “scans_daily,” not “Comics Love” or “Fascinating Discussion.”

I own 2500 single issues and 150 trade paperbacks.

That’s roughly $9000 worth of comics, possibly even more given the higher price of trades in the UK.

Not one of those comics would ever have been bought were it not for scans_daily.

I found a link to it in 2004, got hooked and went out and found a comicshop a few weeks later & have been a steady & devoted buyer ever since. I have never torrented a comic, I have simply used scans_daily as a place to express my views, defend the comics I love, and discover new & interesting comics I hadn’t been aware of before, because heaven knows DC, Marvel & Image don’t do the best of jobs at advertising things themselves.

One poster over at PAD’s site said they owned more Peter David comics than they could count. If that is true, then said poster should sue their school system. I actually do own more comics than I have counted, but I actually CAN count that high, just haven’t as yet. My point being that I have never been to an illegal site to read comics to find out if they are good or not. I read reviews to see if I might like a series, then go buy an issue or two to try it out. If I can’t afford it, I don’t need to steal it.

Joe Rice, please take your hateful comments back over to Comicon.

[…] comments to Mr. David’s post. If nothing else, all these comments and accounts (as well as this comments thread) provide anecdotal backup to the notion that free samples do indeed sell […]

Hey, Alan Coil, go fuck yourself! Hahahahahaha! Naw, I’m just goofing. I’ve got no hateful comments. I’m just making fun of a dude who takes himself super seriously.

And isn’t a very good writer.

I found one of the Peter David trade quotes and yes he was one of the jackasses whining about trades but John Byrne was the real jerk, as per usual.

In the end, it really won’t matter. Scans_Daily will be back someway, somehow and PAD’s X-Factor sales will continue to go downhill.

PAD is delusional if he thinks spoilers and scans are the reason the sales of X-Factor are so low. The reason is: people stopped caring for his stories. Period.

“I just find it ironic that a community on a website filled with primarily women fans, gets nuked, and people applaud the turn of events.”

What’s ironic about that? Do you know what irony means?

This isn’t a court of law, Jacob. Why so worked up about it? Some people that used a site are disappointed it’s gone. They say it helped them find comics to buy. We can’t prove it either way. Oh, well.
—————-

What makes you think I’m worked up about it? I’m asking a question. Haven’t disrespected anyone, I think.

Jacob, would you like me to show you a photo of all the comics I have bought since discovering scans_daily? That’s the only proof I can personally give you, other than the crapload of annecdotes from members repeating the same thing: s_d got them to buy comics.
————-

You see the flaws there, right? All I’m doing is just pointing that out and saying that, hey, maybe s_d wasn’t as important to the industry as a lot like to think…

“Hey, Alan Coil, go fuck yourself! Hahahahahaha! Naw, I’m just goofing. I’ve got no hateful comments. ”

Yep, just like this one.

Joe, thanks for providing another such dubious example.

“I’m just making fun of a dude who takes himself super seriously.

And isn’t a very good writer.”

That’s a pretty subjective statement, and ultimately a FALSE observation at that. Doesn’t seem like you know him all that well, or perhaps you’d rather believe your own self-delusions?

Why do you need proof of something? Why are you using phrases like “burden of proof”? Just seems a little overly serious.

Yeah, I was a dick to Alan. But what the fuck is with the “go back to comicon” shit? I’ve never even been there.

If I remember Alan’s one of the folks stuck up PAD’s ass, and even was when PAD was scared I was going to steal the cosmic treadmill and hire a hooker to kneel behind him while I pushed him over. The guy takes shit extremely seriously.

And did She Hulk become the height of comics art while I wasn’t looking? Ha!

All personality descriptions are subjective, so that’s a dumb criticism.

Making corny jokes doesn’t mean someone has a light attitude about themselves. Gene Shallot takes himself ultra-seriously, and he makes Peter David look like Steven Wright.

Also, using lines like “Doesn’t seem like you know him all that well, or perhaps you’d rather believe your own self-delusions?” in a conversation about a comic book writer makes you sound absolutely ridiculous.

This is not a serious matter. Stop acting so seriously.

It’s SUPER SERIOUS DAN. The dude writes STAR TREK NOVELS! And makes puns! IMPORTANT

I was enjoying scans_daily just the other day… because some rather delightful poster was doing a retrospective of the Suicide Squad series, and posting just enough from old issues and storylines to refresh my memory of the sheer awesomeness that made reading that series so much fun in the first place. If DC would get off their butts and release that Showcase they’d been promising us, I wouldn’t have needed scans_daily. In the meantime, it was a nice trip down memory lane.

Jacob: Just off the top of my head:

Planetary
Global Frequency
First four trades of Invincible
PS238
Doctor 13: Architecture & Mortality
Agents of Atlas
Madrox

Most of my books are in boxes right now due to lack of bookshelves, but these are the ones that came immediately to mind. I’d never have given them a second thought if I hadn’t seen them on s_d.

All I know is that I’m able to figure out which books I would and wouldn’t want to read without having gone to Scans_Daily. Also, they can always come back in some form and actually follow copyright law, and everything positive about the site should remain intact.

[…] Livejournal suspended the community. It’s unlikely to return in that form. Brian Cronin has a piece up on CSBG@CBR, suggesting that writer Peter David may or may not have had something to do with it. […]

I feel like I should admit that the only reason I ever went to Scans_Daily was to read newer comics for free. I had to cut comics out of my budget and I’ve missed a lot of stuff. Scans_Daily was a way for me to keep up, despite not being able to afford comics any more.

To Greg and anyone else who feels inclined to point out that Napster was bad for artists, that it ripped off copyright-holders, and that by paying for your online music through a record-industry-approved outlet you are supporting the creators whereas Napster and similar sites are screwing them over…

Well, that is the RIAA party line, but they are NOT an artist’s-rights organization and they do NOT speak for all rightsholders, many of whom (me included!) both disagree with their rationale and STRONGLY resent the implication that they are somehow “speaking for us”. Record companies are often in adversarial relationships with artists over rights and money — the bottom line being, they damn well get paid, but that doesn’t always mean we get paid.

Please stop making this comparison. As a music publisher, I am FOR people downloading music “illegally”. So by all means support the RIAA if that’s where your sympathies lie, but please don’t support them on my account, because I am still trying to get old money that’s owed to me, that they won’t pay. So who are the real pirates here?

“The site was shut down ostensibly for violation of copyright, posting more than what is covered by a fair use standard. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not there were full books posted. That’s not the legal standard. There have been several people here familiar with scans_daily who’ve conceded that yes, that case for copyright violation is there to be made, it is a fair assessment, but no damage was being done so what’s the harm?”

For the record, I concede nothing of the sort.

If you investigate the fair use doctrine in U.S. copyright law, the legal standard is in fact a series of extensional, provisional definitions which in practice must be applied to each instance on a case by case basis. Whether or not a particular use constitutes fair use is up to a court to decide. A lawyer will say “I think we have a strong case here” or “I wouldn’t want to walk into court with this” but that’s as far as an honest lawyer will go. Nor are the determinations of what constitutes fair use static. They evolve over time: things which were freely permitted a few years ago might now be found in violation of copyright, and vice versa. All that said, I personally believe scans_daily was within the current understanding of “fair use” and has been misrepresented by people trying to advance other agendas.

But don’t overlook my other point: a complaint was made and scans_daily was declared guilty and deleted without any recourse or appeal. Now anyone’s arguments about the supposed evils of scans_daily and my arguments contradicting same are moot, insubstantial — poof, they’re gone. Anyone can make any wild claim of piracy and bootlegging and skullduggery without fear of contradiction. I can’t pull anything out to demonstrate the site’s virtues and disprove the accusations. All the evidence either way has been destroyed by the court, along with the defendant. How convenient. This is entirely within LiveJournal’s legal rights…but it’s a rotten setup.

My LJ account is “Just4ScansDaily” and this is my story (or “proof” as some of you have requested):

In early 2007 and I had not bought a comic book since I was ten years old, and even then in my childhood, I had only 10 or 20 comic books total. In the summer of 2007 I was interested in the business and legal side of the publishing industry and so took a summer job at DC Comics. In order to learn more about DC’s (continuity heavy) books I began reading posts and comments on scans_daily religiously. This got me hooked on comic books again, from both big publishers and small.

It’s now almost the summer of 2009 and I spend an average of $40-60 per week (YES, $40-60 EACH WEEK) on comic books. Without s-d I doubt I would have got into buying comics again or continued after I finished my summer job at DC. I’ve been told that I purchase a lot of comics on a weekly basis but that is mainly because I buy a lot of new books, many of whom I regularly hear about on scans_daily. Even if I am an outlier, I can be pretty sure that most of the members of the s_d community have or at least know of a story very similar to this.

s_d would not serve as a replacement for buying comic books, period. You could not request certain books and the vast majority of the content was only a few pages form a book. In this way it is closer to the option on Amazon.com that lets you listen to a snippet of a song before buying the mp3 then a Pirate Bay or Napster that let you download anything you want for free. Everyone who was on s_d knows this and loved this about the site. I’m sure a substitute will emerge and hopefully it will be similar enough to serve the same purpose.

So … Peter David is the Metallica of comics?

Huh.

Aside from all the other arguments presented here, I think it shows an amazing lack of foresight (to put it in the least judgemental terms and avoid words like “stupid”) that scans_daily was still on LiveJournal at this point at all.
It was only a matter of time before this happened, no matter how one feels about the ethics of scans_daily, and whether the volume of scans went over some fair use limit or not; with the steady increase in crackdowns of various kinds at LiveJournal and the general trend toward more control and just the whole atmosphere around LJ, scans_daily should have moved at least a year ago if the people running it had any kind of clue. In fact, as soon as mightygodking got booted, the people in charge of s_d, if they’d had half a brain, would have started working on a moving plan.
Actually, I’m surprised anyone at all has stuck with LiveJournal.

I have an idea for how to recreate scans daily legally and with buy in from the publishers. I have run large projects before, I have business and legal experience and am an avid comic reader. If anyone knows the contact information of the admins who ran scans_daily I would like to start a discussion with them about this. I think I have a solution.

Please help me contact the s_d admins who were in charge. Thanks.

bpstorage1 (at) gmail (dot) com

@Dan: no, Metallica started out good.

[…] yes, I’m going to write something about this whole scans_daily/Peter David brouhaha eventually. It’s coming. But come on, folks, last night’s episode of Battlestar […]

Naptser, kazaa, bitTorrent et al allowed anyone who didn’t want to pay anyone for anything to own anything without paying a dime. iTunes arranges for artists and record companies to have some way to collect revenue for their work. If artists want to give their music away for free, they can post it to blogger or any other site. Comic writers and artists can do the same, even more easily.

If you investigate the fair use doctrine in U.S. copyright law, the legal standard is in fact a series of extensional, provisional definitions which in practice must be applied to each instance on a case by case basis. Whether or not a particular use constitutes fair use is up to a court to decide.

This is true but misleading as to the facts at hand, because fair use doctrine in the United States has enough precedent behind it at this point that it’s reasonable to say that in the case of scans_daily, the percentage of original works’ use in their reproduction would very frequently exceed any reasonable definition of fair use. Remember that it was not infrequent for a s_d post to reproduce up to half of any given single issue, and very common to reproduce more than twenty-five percent of same.

Fair use doctrine as regards quantity of reproduction tends to favour small uses that do not reproduce the core of the work. Most of s_d’s output would not satisfy that metric. Yes, maybe if they took it to court they would get a crazy or seriously copyleft judge, but realistically, they would lose their case.

Joshschr, I DON’T AGREE.

Why do the specific copyright issues of my industry have to be in this discussion?

Rob Brown (a.k.a. Arrogantcur)

February 28, 2009 at 7:51 pm

“Joe Rice, please take your hateful comments back over to Comicon.”

Are you a mod, Alan?

Are you in a position to tell people what to say and what not to?

No, you’re not. But I will assume that since you like telling others what to do, you’re cool with other people telling you what to do, so I’m gonna tell you to shut the hell up and get lost.

“The guy takes shit extremely seriously.”

Yes, he does.

“Remember that it was not infrequent for a s_d post to reproduce up to half of any given single issue, and very common to reproduce more than twenty-five percent of same.”

mgk, I would not dream of questioning your insight into the law, but I’m not so sure about this claim. Were you to point to any given post containing from one quarter to one half of a comic book, I would readily say “This was bad and the mods should not have allowed this.” And at times, that’s just what I did say. However, the majority of posts which I read on scans_daily contained something in the range of two to four scans. Some of them only one. Very very often, there were posts containing simply a webcomic that was published that day, or a sketch from a convention, or a pinup of some sort. Also, many historical posts featuring work in the public domain. There were quite a lot more of these than there were posts with eight pages or more from a current comic.

Now we’re trading anecdotal recollections, not facts. This is one reason we have courts, isn’t it? For occasions when “everybody knows it happened this way” doesn’t cut it.

Rather than offer any provision for mediating a dispute — or giving the mods any chance to address their accusers or rebut the charges — LJ went straight to the nuclear option. Let me make this clear, since I apparently need to repeat this in every post: LJ had every legal right to do this under their ToS. The law doesn’t come into this. There would never be a case to lose. I only raised the sometimes slippery nature of fair use because I felt Greg was making that aspect sound more straightforward and clearcut than the subject actually is.

LJ went straight to the nuclear option. Let me make this clear, since I apparently need to repeat this in every post: LJ had every legal right to do this under their ToS. The law doesn’t come into this.

Actually, the law does come into it, because the Digital Millennium Copyright Act demands that when a service provider is notified of copyright infringement that said service provider shut down that account immediately (barring a couple of non-involvement options that frankly are not applicable given the communal nature of scans_daily and the inability to secure agreement from all participating parties).

“LJ went straight to the nuclear option.”
Which, increasingly, has been LJ standard operating procedure for the past couple of years. So I ask again, seeing as the writing was clearly on the wall, why didn’t the people in charge of s_d show some sign of not being completely oblivious and get out while the getting was good, and while a move could be done while recovering files and offering a redirect before the thing is just dead and inaccessible?
I’m in no way either agreeing with LJ’s heavy-handed reactions, or saying that they don’t have the right to do so, but this development surprises me not at all; the only surprise is s_d choosing to just sit there at an increasingly hostile LJ until getting booted under the most disadvantageous circumstances rather than, as I said, moving while they had more control.

Rob Brown said:

“Are you a mod, Alan?

Are you in a position to tell people what to say and what not to?”

Typical Canadian. I said nothing to you, yet you butt in.

I don’t remember Joe addressing his original comments to you.

Hypocrite.

And it only makes you sound like more of a jerk to insult an entire country.

One thing I would like to point out, RE the Napster arguement, is that Napster is more like a torrent site, than a forum/community which is what S_D was.

When I used Napster, I don’t recall any discussion going on about albums or tracks, any recommendations on what bands a, say Metallica fan might also like.

On S_D, not only did we have a wealth of people sharing information and recommendations, we had industry people regulary visit/watch the site. NUMEROUS times Warren Ellis has commented on posts of his work, frequently commenting on a specific aspect of TransMet. I know I am chasing down copies of the TM trades as a direct result of S_D, so add that as one more nod.

The point here, isn’t to argue right vs wrong, I’m no expert on fair use standards or anything like that, but there are years of history of creators posting to the community, and in the fairly rare cases where they had an objection to something, it was quickly addressed by the community. Because ultimately it was a community of people that love comics and respect the people that make them. It’s a shame that one creator had to spoil it, if that is in fact what happened.

The self-righteous BS in here is staggering.

Jeez people, calm down. I remember when this used to be a civil place – back when we were discussing the legal and ethical considerations of downloading scans of cave paintings.

I’ve pushed the ‘scans let you try before you buy’ argument many times before, but as time passes the less comfortable I am with it, particularly in the current economic climate (Man, that phrase became a cliche fast, didn’t it?) Yeah, scans have contributed to me buying more comics, but for every The Walking Dead, Tales Designed To Thrizzle, or Enigma run, there’ve indubitably been others that didn’t pass the digital taste test. For every creator into whose pocket I’ve put a dollar thanks to work I originally read or sampled for free, there’s been at least one other who got stiffed.

To coin a goofy analogy, I don’t think dLing or reading online is so much auditioning an actor as it is to getting an opening night performance out of them on spec. While that’s more applicable to full scans rather than the excerpts on scans_daily, both are examples of consuming product without compensating for the creator.

What I find off-putting about the situation – more than PAD’s unmitigated gall at preferring people pay to read his stuff or preview it in a venue he approved of – is the sense of entitlement some people have. Claims of free advertising aside, they knew full well they were at best toeing the line of fair use, it’s more than a little disingenuous to cry foul when called out on it.

If this IS a case of Marvel getting the community shut down, then that’s a shame, and a bad business decision on their part, since scans_daily amounted to free marketing for them.

However, I think Jack Norris is pretty close to the mark. It seems to me that Livejournal- or rather, livejournal’s still relatively new owners- caught the whiff of litigation and just shut the community down. Which is a pretty GOOD business decision on their part, if symptomatic of the general shift in their approach that has seen an awful lot of people leave the site.

I still use livejournal, and will do for the foreseeable, cos hey, free blogging, and social networking without zombie pirate bullshit. And I have real friends there. It remains the best blog/network thing for creatives so far as I can see, and getting a bit tougher on things like copyright isn’t likely to hurt them in that regard. And as long as people like Gail Simone, Greg Rucka, and so on continue to use it, it’ll stay popular in the geekosphere.

Anyway, I’m kind of sad to see s_d go, because while I barely ever visited it myself, it always seemed to me to be the internet equivelant of a bunch of people getting together and talking about the weeks comics over a beer or something, rather than some nest of pirates like a lot of people seem to think.

I’ll defend till I’m blue the right of anyone to protect their copyright, mind you. And I’m not surprised this has happened. But it’s sad and a little stupid.

#####

…Anyway, that’s my two penneth on the subject. The REAL reason I wanted to post a comment, though, is to repeat this quote from Dick Hyacinth, because it’s been running through my head repeatedly as I’ve read through this comments section…

Can anyone point out any instance where Alan Coil has ever added anything of value to any conversation whatsoever?

That’s a damn good question, Dick…

I’ve pushed the ’scans let you try before you buy’ argument many times before, but as time passes the less comfortable I am with it, particularly in the current economic climate (Man, that phrase became a cliche fast, didn’t it?) Yeah, scans have contributed to me buying more comics, but for every The Walking Dead, Tales Designed To Thrizzle, or Enigma run, there’ve indubitably been others that didn’t pass the digital taste test. For every creator into whose pocket I’ve put a dollar thanks to work I originally read or sampled for free, there’s been at least one other who got stiffed.

Of course, the relevant question then becomes whether or not those creators you “stiffed” would ever have seen your money in the first place.

What a damn shame. scans_daily has been one of my best resources for determining what to buy for two years (after a considerable period where I read, but never bought, quite a few comics). In fact, there were two of Mr. David’s titles in my recent “must-buy”* list I wouldn’t have looked at twice, otherwise.

*That list can also be known as the “must recommend to X” or “must buy for X” list. Damn, damn shame to see a good writer shut down free advertising.

Also worth noting is that most posts were not scans from current issues – even when they were, as many have said already, they generally consisted of a few pages, not whole issues.

The comparison to Napster or Torrents is not at all accurate – I think following any title based solely on 4 pages each month would be no substitute for the whole issue.

The site was a great resource for making recommendations via the character, title and creator tags – introducing someone to the work of Warren Ellis or Grant Morrison or Rob Liefeld couldn’t be easier – there’s no alternative to that kind of resource.

Of course, the relevant question then becomes whether or not those creators you “stiffed” would ever have seen your money in the first place.

To me, the relevant question ultimately is “Is it fair to creators to consume their product and then decide whether or not to compensate them for it?” If I read the latest issue of Incognito online – or even a goodly chunk, which would then provoke debate about how much is too much of a chunk – and decide it’s not for me, I can’t unread it. Even if I didn’t enjoy it, I still took in Brubaker’s words and Phillips’ art, and they got bupkiss for it.

The argument that the bad (Consumption without creator compensation) is mitigated by the good (Some creators eventually do receive compensation as a result) is relative and almost completely supported by anecdotal evidence (‘Well, I’ve bought more comics.’ ‘Well, I don’t mind people doing it with my stuff’) since hard numbers on readers and sales are unavailable and/or unreliable (If I’m wrong on that and there has been an objective look at the relationship between scans and sales and any clear correlation either good or bad deduced, I’d be really eager to have a look-see.) The ‘I’m not putting anyone out because I wouldn’t have paid to read that comic that I just read without paying for’ line probably has some sort of formal latin name that I’m blanking on, but I’ll just call it hinky for now.

I’ve bought stuff that I read once and threw in the box and immediately forgot about, I’d guess almost all of us have. Live and learn, fool me once, etc. You pays your money, and takes your chances – it’s an investment, and every investment contains an element of risk that even the most informed consumer’s due diligence efforts cannot prevent. While it could be postulated that scans_daily serves a positive and useful role in that effort, it could also be argued that it’s merely a venue for unauthorized dissemination of content rather than a credible source of artistic/critical analysis; again, relative.

Like I said before, I’m drifting towards an argument better suited for a discussion about full scans, rather than scans_daily’s excerpts and synopsi, but there is still some relevance. Apologies for the drifty rambliness!

Yes, it’s fair.

Marvel and DC, anyway, are inarguably (I think) in the business of selling serial narratives. If you read one comic and then never read its series again, it’s spit in the ocean. Wouldn’t buy Peter David’s kid a new toothbrush. These aren’t the days of five million sales a month; “drive-by” readers don’t number in the hundreds of thousands, and comics don’t cost ten cents. Seriality is what makes the money: steady readers who keep coming back. Fans.

They buy comics anyway. The only question is, how many? If you can make that number go up, that’s your bread and butter, and your gravy too. If you can’t, it doesn’t matter if someone read the book without paying or not, because the book’s going under, and that’s that.

One man’s opinion.

This is the first time I’ve stated my opinion on this. So thanks, contentious thread!

I don’t think that S_D has any legal justification and whether it had any moral justification is questionable. I’m not sure whether anyone lost or made money they wouldn’t have otherwise, but I could see it both ways.

Ultimately, the only rights I really care about are my own. And I’m sad that S_D gone. The community, which would never have existed without copyright violation, is never going to be what it was, and that I think is a tragedy. And I liked stealing comics, and now I can’t. It is entirely selfish, but I’m still sorry it’s gone.

David O'Neill

March 1, 2009 at 2:55 am

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I’m hoping any of you freeloading scumbags will actually go out and support your local Comic Shop now, but that’s probably wishful thinking.

Delighted to see Scans Daily die, by the way. Long time coming.

[…] Brian Cronin speculates that a report by Peter David to Marvel about X-Factor pages being posted may have had something to do with the shutdown. Based on David’s comment, he has the mistaken assumption that if he can remove free copies, all interested readers will buy the comic instead. Many companies assume similarly, that any free taste is a lost sale. That’s rarely true. […]

“Piracy actually helps in promoting sales of the copyrighted materials.” this tired statement has been the defense of any free loader on the net not only comics, but music and books but it has never been proven or the stats have always been unclear either way. I, like everyone on the net have been guilty of once in a while downloading copyrighted material but that does not mean it is right. Whatever PAD’s reasons are scans daily is in the wrong. If they aren’t then the site would not have been shut down. Get over it. posting copyrighted material is wrong, Just because the site made you buy more comics does not mean it’s right. The end does not justify the means.

Honestly, I kind of dislike Scans_Daily. If I had a nickel for every time I was spoiled on a comic before it even came out in my city.

To be fair, Scans_daily was originally slash, then drifted into generally commentary and posting during about 05. Late ’05 or ’06, they came up with the “less than half a book/story” rule, which was when the fullscans_daily spin-off was set up.

Shame this has happenned. There was a lot of dross, but some decent stuff there too. Hopefully whatever comes out will be good.

Anonymous, would you kindly SHUT UP ABOUT HOW YOU KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT MUSIC. MUSIC AND COMICS ARE NOT COMPARABLE IN THIS INSTANCE.

Jeez!

What’s the difference between 5 pages of 3 of that week’s titles being made available officially (via CBR and Newsarama previews) and 5 pages of other titles being made available (via fans on S_D)?

chickrockguitar

March 1, 2009 at 6:34 am

Can I point out another use for SD?

A lot of people, especially in the UK, Europe etc etc (Non-US/Canada places) myself included, do not have access to a local comic store. They’re not everywhere in every city/town like they are in the US/Canada. So we can’t pop into a store and flick though a comic series to see if we like it. We have to order via online/mail order et, where we can not see much, only a couple of previews on CBR/Newsarama etc. THIS is why SD was so important. Not to freeload, but to see what’s out there.

In my opinion, shutting SD down, has lost lost comic book publishers a lot of free advertising and untimely, a lot of fans’ money.

Michael Mayket

March 1, 2009 at 7:12 am

@David Wynne – Alan Coil used to stop by every Joe Fridays at Newsarama to ask Joe where the last issue of Daredevil: Father was and this one incredibly pretentious poster who’s name now escapes me used to get so angry at him. I found that worthwhile.

The Wandering Parakeet

March 1, 2009 at 7:39 am

To me, Scans_Daily is more like “byrne-stealing” or flipping through an issue in the stores rather than downloading. (I’ve never downloaded a comic; I wouldn’t even know where to being.) I don’t stand around in my local shop reading a 22-page comic book, but I think most everyone opens up a floppy to peruse the merchandise before getting into a new series. Do you, or would you, buy everything you flip through? Of course not. With cover art often being done by another artist and having nothing to do with the actual contents of an issue, there’s no way to really know what you’re going to be getting without ahem “taking in [at least part of] someone’s work without paying for it.” And really, that’s a dumb argument to apply to art. I “take in” art at a gallery or from the radio without paying for it all the time. Ownership seems to me to be the issue, rather than consumption.. (Sorry to bring up music again, plok.)

To add to the anecdotal evidence of S_D actually helping the industry, I follow mostly Marvel series (about 15 titles a month), but because of Scans_Daily I bought a lot of trades of DC series (Manhunter, Checkmate, and JSA, off the top of my head.) There weren’t any series that I enjoyed following only through S_D so as to avoid paying. The idea that I’m going to be buying more comics because S_D is gone is false, as is the assumption that I’m freeloading or not supporting my local store.

Parakeet, now someone’s talking MY language. Thank you.

The truth is, black markets exist and flourish (not that I’m saying S_D was anything like a black market), and this is a fact, and we all use them from time to time. We are not criminals. Black markets are also easy to stop, frustrate, kill, end, outcompete. What they’re not easy to do is stifle.

If Marvel and DC wanted that encroaching black-market space, they could take it. Easily. In any one of a dozen different ways. But they don’t. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong (although for me, it’s pretty right), but they COULD do something about it…and yet (apparently) they choose not to.

It’s their choice!

I am not employed by them as a cop! If they want me to act as a cop, they should pay me. Instead they try to GUILT me. And the result is, I don’t even READ Big Two comics anymore. I have forgotten the names Peter David and Dan Slott. If they want me to pay four bucks to read them…well, they ask too much. If they don’t want me to read them, I won’t. I have other places to spend that money. If the reading is FREE I won’t take advantage of it. It’s OVER.

The whole discussion about whether the net purchaser outcome of S_D is good or bad is ridiculous, in my opinion. There ARE no people rabidly following a title, but only on S_D. Hell, there ARE no people religiously torrenting a title. There just ain’t people like that. There may be people pirating current movies that are on the shelves…but that is a whole ‘nother discussion. A different platform. Different issues. Like music. Comics-lovers who never spend a penny? They don’t exist. Where are these mythical lovers of comics who prefer to rip creators off rather than pay? They don’t fucking exist. There is no market past us. There are no “new fans” coming in, except the usual trickle. I hazard a guess: there were no S_D aficionados who did not buy comics.

Anybody who wants them to go away: BEWARE. Because they MIGHT. It is really easy not to buy JSA, you know. Really easy not to buy X-Men. It is. SO EASY.

Sorry, CSBG people. Venting. You’ll pardon me, I hope.

Y’know, if people only understood that scans_daily did not serve as a pirate’s haven, maybe they’d step back before saying “good riddance” to it.

To call the users of s_d as “freeloaders” wholesale is incredibly unfair to us who have bought comics precisely because s_d gave us a good idea what’s good. Personally, I’d have never given a lot of books not named Batman or Spider-Man a second look if not for this comm, and sometimes, it just takes a true fan, not a corporate shill, telling me what rocks about this book for me to put my money where my mouth is.

They will use their new rules in their new site, that’s fo sure:

There will be a new site.

Scans_daily has returned … from beyond the grave! noscans_daily has been established for purely talk and no pictures for a start

plok, are you goddamn delusional? There are plenty of comics readers who never pay money for comics and religiously torrent them, an you don’t have to look any further than the comics board on 4chan for absolute proof of that.

I can’t even tell you how many threads I used to see posted there every Wednesday saying “where’s the scans for the latest issue of Punisher, where’s the scans for Scalped, what’s taking them so long, I want to read them.” The concept of going to a comics store and actually paying money was completely foreign to them.

I always thought Scans Daily was known and had dealt with these problems already, in a “we’re doing back-alley promotion” kinda way.

Oh well.

Why so serious?

For those who are curious members of s_d are listing off all the comics (trades and ongoings) they’ve bought due to seeing bits of them on scans_daily.

http://community.livejournal.com/noscans_daily/1065.html

Hell, there ARE no people religiously torrenting a title. There just ain’t people like that.

Following comments are copied and pasted from a pair of public torrent sights after about a minute of clicking around:

>hey
can you plz provide skaar’s 7th issue…
>and b4 i forget
thanx for ths one too ………….:)
>i am looking for # 9 now :p
i know that i am greedy but cant seem to get enough of this comic :p

>Sweet thx I have been waitin for the dark tower

>Woo Star Wars Legacy! Thanks for this!
>thanks for star wars
>Thanks for Terminator

Mister Vader – I did not call you a freeloader. I called you a freeloading scumbag. Please correct your comments to reflect this. As someone who works in a comic store – people like you, who refuse to actually exchange cash money for a comic book – are, frankly, the lowest form of life.

And don’t give me this “Oh if it wasn’t for Scans Daily, I wouldn’t have bought Title X”. Thats bullshit. I have not met one customer in the shop who has actually exchanged, once again, CASH, while saying “Yeah I saw some pirate had illegally put up the entire comic online and liked it so much I was moved to actually come in here and buy it”. The next step up from the scumbags who put scans online, are the scumbags who put torrents online, but thankfully it looks like the law will deal with them in the near future.

Dave O’Neill:

You know, I could go on about how there are people who torrent, like something, and buy it– thereby producing a sale that never would’ve existed without Burntsiennabeard the Internet Pirate– and I could mention the people who have no local comics shop, and exist in countries where they have the internet but no mailorder comic store– but I see that it would be completely wasted on you, as you only exist here to call other people scumbags. Please get some perspective.

Thank You,

The Management

“Of course, the relevant question then becomes whether or not those creators you “stiffed” would ever have seen your money in the first place.” -MGK

Good point. I think in many situations readers care more about the characters than the stories, and would rather use scans_daily to periodically check up on what the characters are being written as, rather than shill out money for potentially bad stories.

And don’t give me this “Oh if it wasn’t for Scans Daily, I wouldn’t have bought Title X”. Thats bullshit. I have not met one customer in the shop who has actually exchanged, once again, CASH, while saying “Yeah I saw some pirate had illegally put up the entire comic online and liked it so much I was moved to actually come in here and buy it”. The next step up from the scumbags who put scans online, are the scumbags who put torrents online, but thankfully it looks like the law will deal with them in the near future

Gosh. Given your reasonable and measured response here, I can’t IMAGINE why your customers would be less-than-eager to discuss their reasons for purchasing with you.

i have absolutely no opinion on the matter either way, but I tend to instinctively side with those folks who are more reasoned and less self-righteously assholely. And, for all their bad on-line rep, the Scans Daily folks are all behaving much better and seem more capable of logical argument together than the antis. Reactions like yours above make not just you but everyone who agrees with you look like whiny idiots. I’m sure THEY’D appreciate it if you’d knock it off.

Mister Vader – I did not call you a freeloader. I called you a freeloading scumbag. Please correct your comments to reflect this. As someone who works in a comic store – people like you, who refuse to actually exchange cash money for a comic book – are, frankly, the lowest form of life.

And don’t give me this “Oh if it wasn’t for Scans Daily, I wouldn’t have bought Title X”. Thats bullshit. I have not met one customer in the shop who has actually exchanged, once again, CASH, while saying “Yeah I saw some pirate had illegally put up the entire comic online and liked it so much I was moved to actually come in here and buy it”. The next step up from the scumbags who put scans online, are the scumbags who put torrents online, but thankfully it looks like the law will deal with them in the near future.

And considering the contempt so many comic store owners are showing toward this situation and this community, do you blame these people for not being outspoken about it? Do you run background checks on your customers in order to know they are not secretly “freeloading scumbags” who also would like to keep physical copies of things they thought were awesome?
And could you please elaborate on how laws will keep torrents in check? I’m not aware of any news regarding the subject.

For the record; I was not a member of said community, although I was aware of it.

DarKye – Actually, and this should be so obvious it’s not worth saying, all you have to say is “simple math.” But I’m annoyed enough I might as well run through it.

What percentage of your customers tell you WHY they’re purchasing what they’re purchasing? What are the odds that that teeny percentage of your customers (not all your customers, just that small chunk) numbers in the 10,000 or so scans daily readers.

Cross-reference that against the number of female, superhero readers in your customer base. Which is what Scans Daily IS, demographically speakin’,

Well, unless you’re in a HUGE comic store with a relatively large base of female superhero fans AND you talk to a lot of people about their specific motives for their specific purchases (other than “It’s a gift…”)

Then, yeah, no shit nobody’s told you that they’re buying comics because of Scans Daily. The odds are really strongly against it. Simple math.

And now for something a little more complex…

Scans_Daily probably helped sell some comics. It probably stopped some people from buying some comics, or at least kept some sad an’ angry people obsessively fixated on comics they weren’t gonna buy anyway instead of doing something productive with their lives. But there’s no real way to tell if it helped more than it hurt, or vice versa.

Why do you need proof of something? Why are you using phrases like “burden of proof”? Just seems a little overly serious.
————-

Really? I’ve never really looked at “burden of proof” as such an intelligent thing to say.

But yeah, not serious at all. S_d users are saying that it helped the industry. I’m asking for proof. The reason for proof is to validate the claim. It’s a pretty bold claim, don’t you think?

Why does that seem unreasonable, if I may ask? Honestly, I’m not attacking the users, and if the claim is backed up with some numbers, then I’ll go back to my corner quietly.

Apodaca–

I’ve been to Canada,,,it needs to be insulted.

Michael Mayket said:

“Alan Coil used to stop by every Joe Fridays at Newsarama to ask Joe where the last issue of Daredevil: Father was and this one incredibly pretentious poster who’s name now escapes me used to get so angry at him. I found that worthwhile.”

Yep, that was me being a dick. Then Joe ran away to MySpace.

At that time, Quesada had said that the pages were done, and the book would be out on time. Due to inside information, I knew the book was going to run late. The same happened with One More Day, which was scheduled to be out in August of that year, yet had to be changed to a monthly series that lasted until December. I was extremely pissed that Quesada repeatedly lied about these things, and brought it to his attention whenever possible.

I have since also departed from NuNuNewsarama. Doran essentially said don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

“I did not call you a freeloader. I called you a freeloading scumbag.”

Accuracy is important. And I LOLed when I read this. I know that it was not right, but I did LOL.

Jacob – Well, there aren’t any numbers. Unless Bookscan and Diamond institute a policy where everyone states (somehow) in quantifiable terms WHY they’ve purchased every comic they purchase – Or some other unbelievably ludicrous scenario – Then there will never be any numbers.

Therefore, Burden of Proof is fairly useless here. Neither side can provide any real, tangible evidence that S_D overall either hurts or helps the comics industry. We have some individual, anecdotal evidence that may-or-may-not be true. We have no real evidence that it hurts, but the members of the Scans_Daily community who would use it INSTEAD of buying comics probably aren’t going to admit to this, at least not right now.

(All of the above I woulda figured could safely filed under the drawer marked “Duh,” but I guess it needed explaining.)

“people like you, who refuse to actually exchange cash money for a comic book – are, frankly, the lowest form of life.”
Wow. Lower than murderers, rapists, child molesters, and crooked corporate heads who devastate their empoyee’s entire pension fund? Lower than people who bash other’s heads in as a form of weekend evening recreation? Lower than hate mongers, racists, anti-semites and rabid homophobes? Lower than anyone else on Earth, no matter how vile?
Gee thanks, my perspectives were clearly distorted.

(Usually I have no patience for the old “how dare you be upset about this trivial problem when so much worse things are happening in the world” argument, but the remark quoted above was fucked up enough to justify the response.)

>>Gosh. Given your reasonable and measured response here, I can’t IMAGINE why your customers would be less-than-eager to discuss their reasons for purchasing with you.

My favourite part of the job is talking to people about the books they are buying. Most people – myself included – cite REAL reasons – the creative team, Diamond Previews, a good storyline…not one person has ever, EVER cited a stupid website populated entirely by people who refuse to leave their house.

I’ve used Scans exactly once in the last six months – I was looking for a jpeg – AFTER I had actually bought the damn book. I’d never stopp as low as the assholes there who demand scans of a book first thing on a Wednesday. Get out of the house, and support your local store.

Maybe I’d never buy anything from your comic book shop because I, oh, I dunno, live in the Philippines?

Why would I want to be content with HALF a comic I like when I could have the TACTILE FEEL of the actual comic book in my hands?

I find it hilarious that you don’t even know me yet you already assume I torrent comic books. Newsflash: I don’t.

As a Magic: The Gathering Player, I don’t proxy, and play only with the original cards. By extension, any other hobby I have, namely, comic books, will get the same treatment.

So to recap: no, S_D is not a hotbed for pirates or “freeloading scumbags” as you succinctly put it. That’s painting in broad strokes, and is just poor form.

>>> S_D is not a hotbed for pirates or “freeloading scumbags” as you succinctly put it. That’s painting in broad strokes, and is just poor form.

This is an opinion. Not fact.

>>>I find it hilarious that you don’t even know me yet you already assume I torrent comic books. Newsflash: I don’t.

You’re one level above the assholes who torrent books.

Oh, so a guy who BUYS comics is also an asshole.

Whoop-de-doo.

“website populated entirely by people who refuse to leave their house”

Yeah, because everyone who talks about comics and comic related things on the internet is some bizarre no-friends loser. Especially this Dave O’Neill character.

Was S_D stealing from comic publishers and creators? Absolutely. Was S_D stealing from the LCS? Bullshit. Is everyone who gets comic mailed to them also scum?

A comic book store is not a charity. If it can’t make money then there’s a problem with it’s business model. If the LCS lives or dies that’s entirely the problem of the store owner, and not potential customers. Welcome to capitalism my friend, if you don’t like it move to Cuba.

Quite frankly, I don’t know how anyone could use S_D as a proxy for the actual comics. Less than half the story was posted – no fan is going to be happy with knowing half the story. S_D was used to whet the appetite and promote discussion and snark.

And yes, I am one more person who bought trades and issues I wouldn’t have otherwise known about because of S_D. And no, I don’t tell my comic book store cashier that I’m there because of an online community populated by rare female fans who like to joke about super heroes slash. I feel out-of-place there enough as it is.

>>S_D was used to whet the appetite and promote discussion and snark.

S_D was used to relentlessly criticise comics by good, hardworking creators

S_D was used to relentlessly criticise comics by good, hardworking creators

Time to shut down every other comic book board on the Internet, I guess.

I’ll have to come back and read the rest of this after work.

Please do not be blaming PAD for the shut down of Scans_Daily. If you need to blame someone other than the people violating copyright, you can blame me because I’m the one who said, “I wonder if the spotlight fallinjg on this community will get it shut down for repeated copyright violation.” You can’t see the discussion, because the community is gone, but I was the one who said it, not PAD.

And, it did violate copyright, repeatedly. I’ve been a member for a long time. I didn’t buy any Final Crisis, because I could read it on Scans_Daily. Same with RIP. There were too many issues for me to keep up with, and they were going to affect the titles I do read, so I got caught up on the story by reading S_D. It was easy, just hit the tag button and I could find one person who posted 1/3 the issue, another who posted 1/2 the issue, and the comments filled in the rest.

And, that isn’t right or fair. Yes, what I was doing was not right, I admit it. I’m not a hypocrite saying that because I wanted to read comics that I didn’t buy that it somehow was not wrong, or that the wrong thing to do was to shut it down.

However, I will say that the intent of S_D was not to be a spoiler site. It was supposed to be a place to share pannels and pages and discuss. And, the moderators did work to keep full books from being posted. But, the big events like Civil War, Secret Invasion, RIP, and FC were easy to read on S_D rather than buy the book. And, I certainly understand why DC, Marvel, or even LiveJournal would not like that.

Theno

“Doran essentially said don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.”

How could we encourage this here?

>>>>Time to shut down every other comic book board on the Internet, I guess.

Start with Matt Brady’s DC Love Fest, and I’d be happy. I like the boards here – they’re pretty tightly segregated so I can ignore the stuff I dont read – but Brady lets the DC fans run riot on Newsarama – a good decent purge is pretty necessary

>>However, I will say that the intent of S_D was not to be a spoiler site. It was supposed to be a place to share pannels and pages and discuss. And, the moderators did work to keep full books from being posted.

This is lies.

Oedipus Schmoedipus

March 2, 2009 at 12:10 pm

Maybe if people had the wherewithal to actually hoof their ass down to their local comic shop and flip through a couple of floppies and trades to decide what to buy or (shock!) talk to the possibly knowledgeable person behind the counter, we wouldn’t be having this mind-numbingly dull shouting match.

“But don’t overlook my other point: a complaint was made and scans_daily was declared guilty and deleted without any recourse or appeal.”

Why would they think they had any right to recourse or appeal while using a free web service? Especially when the provider of said service could be in legal trouble over their content?

I’m surprised at all the people falling back on anecdotal evidence as if it proves anything. The lists of books some people wouldn’t have bought without Scans Daily really don’t provide proof of anything. And, to whoever is complaining about the burden of proof being on Scans Daily fans re: that it helped the industry, it is completely fair: when you’re asking a rights holder to cede some control of their property to your site, you better be able to prove that it is in their financial interest.

>>>Maybe if people had the wherewithal to actually hoof their ass down to their local comic shop and flip through a couple of floppies and trades to decide what to buy or (shock!) talk to the possibly knowledgeable person behind the counter, we wouldn’t be having this mind-numbingly dull shouting match.

Exactly. Customer came in today, new enough guy and we ended up having a great conversation about the current market, and he ended buying a good couple of things. Highpoint of a quiet monday.

Dave O’Neill-

Good lord, you really are a blinkered individual, aren’t you? You make Rorshach look rational and sympathetic with the way you’re arguing your point here.

For example, Thenodrin gave us a long and thoughtful post based on their personal experience, that essentially supported your argument that Scans_daily hurt sales- and your only response was to call them a liar. Nice.

Also, quite interesting, since you are basically claiming intimate knowledge of the running of a site that you also claim to have visited only once in the last six months, and is frequented only by sub-human scum.

And I note that you still haven’t responded to the question of whether someone who buys their comics by mailorder is also scum for not supporting their local comic shop. What about people who buy trades from bookstores? How about people like myself, in the UK, who catch up on “event” comics via their much cheaper news-stand reprints? Am I scum?

As a previous poster so eloquently put it, comics shops are not charities. I’m sorry you’re having a hard time doing business, but let me tell you something- over the years, I’ve frequented many different comic shops, and do you know what the number one cause of my *stopping* using any given shop has been? The owner acting like they were entitled to my hard-earned cash. I’ve had a comic shop owner shout at me for entering their store carrying a plastic bag with the logo of a rival store on it. That kind of attitude just pisses me off, quite frankly. You want my business? Compete for it. Don’t insult me for shopping elsewhere.

I don’t torrent comics, and I didn’t use scans daily on any significant level- the only time I ever found myself there was when someone would post a link to something funny there. But on those few visits, it was obvious that the vast majority of people using it were doing so only to share their appreciation of their favourite artform with other fans, and, in fact, weren’t even breaking the law*. It seems that apparently it could have done with better moderation, since some people- certainly a minority- were using it for “soft piracy”. This does not just justify your vitriol. It is an issue seperate from your own agenda, which is about comics shops, not copyright infringement.

Basically, mr O’Neill- you’re making yourself look foolish, and also making it abundantly clear why your business- and by that I mean the entire direct market, frankly- is in so much trouble. You do not understand, and are not interested in understanding, the world outside your store. And that world is moving forward, and leaving you in the dust.

*And I can argue that particular point up and down, if you like, since as a cartoonist myself I’ve made a point of familiarising myself with copyright law.

>>And I note that you still haven’t responded to the question of whether someone who buys their comics by mailorder is also scum for not supporting their local comic shop

It’s a self answering question. Our own store does, in fact, offer mail order service. However, none of our mail order customers appear to be parasites who use a site like scans. In fact, they dont get their comics, UNTIL they’ve paid for them. Also, we sell the UK reprints side by side witht he imports, so that argument is pretty lifeless aswell.

>>As a previous poster so eloquently put it, comics shops are not charities

No, but I’ve seen some parents treat them like daycare facilities.

And furthermore, you little prick – how dare you try and insinutate that our business is failing. It is most certainly not. I’m sure most failed artists like yourself would hope that the industry is failing around your ears, but we’re doing pretty good – buoyed, I will admit, by the press for Watchmen, Wolverine, and the Obama issue of Spider-Man, and so on. Don’t DARE say we’re having a hard time doing business. Would we love more business – sure, who wouldnt – but I’d take one extra customer a day, over the bags of human waste and delinquents that came into the shop over half term and proceeded to – over the course a week

-Throw comics around the shop
-Call me a “f–king nerd” to my face
-Set off a fire alarm
-One little shitstain who was filmed SMOKING in the shop.
-And the prick who shoved half an uneaten sandwich into our backissue bin.

But, obviously, you’d prefer if I placated these little fucks. “Because they’re the future of the industry”

>>I’ve had a comic shop owner shout at me for entering their store carrying a plastic bag with the logo of a rival store on it.

Given the way there’s three comic shops here within five minutes of each other. I don’t blame him for a second.

>>But on those few visits, it was obvious that the vast majority of people using it were doing so only to share their appreciation of their favourite artform with other fans,

This is a lie. And hey, ask Peter David if he thought they were “appreciating” the artform.

>>It seems that apparently it could have done with better moderation,

Newsarama needs better moderation. Scans needed a whole sale clearout of the parasites.

There is a HUGE difference between the two classes of “posters” on the site. The first was the “Ha Ha lookit the yaoi!!!” And look, here’s HILARIOUS gay subtext in this issue of Outsiders (or whatever). The second group was the lot that make my blood boil – the “gimme scans for New Avengers 50…where are the scans for Mighty Avengers…oh thanks, now I don’t have to go to the shop”.

It’s blindingly obvious the latter were the extreme majority.

>>You do not understand, and are not interested in understanding, the world outside your store. And that world is moving forward, and leaving you in the dust.

Thursday is new comics day here, and I can think of at least 10 customers who would save a fortune if they took their significant business online, but every single one of them has said putting the comic in their hand is their highlight of the week. And they’re the customers I live for. I went on vacation last week, and visiting a new comics shop is an awesome experience, running my fingertips over shelves to find something that passed me by, or our shop didnt/cant order (which, does happen), or raiding a back issue bin and finding something you’ve been looking for. And everyone of of those shops was packed (I went on a busy day, deliberately) – but I found the staff to be pleasant, knowledgeable and fans of COMIC BOOKS – not a pathetic collection of jpegs. And there’s no-one I’d rather be in the dust with.

But really, we’re doing fine, while you’re sitting ranting about the “industry” and piracy and the price of comics.” First step to making any changes to these is by coming in, talking to us and picking up some books, not complaining about us because you had one bad experience .

I feel the need to point out that scans_daily was not a free service. You can make free comms, but scans_daily to my knowledge was not one, or not always one. At least at some periods of its existence it was a paid account, and many of its users had paid LJ accounts. (I’ve let my paid LJ account lapse since I wasn’t using a lot of paid features.)

I bring this up because I believe there was a period of time – perhaps a year? – where the entire hosting fee for scans_daily was, IIRC, paid by Warren Ellis himself.

I stand corrected on religious torrenters, and grudgingly accept the “goddam delusional” criticism. Sigh.

Blast you people and your facts!

So Come On Down to your local comic store, and have scintilating conversations like the above with Dave O Neil and people JUST LIKE HIM!

Why easily access comics on your computer for free when you can pay money to be called a scumbucket shitstain from a man who hates your children!

Check Yo Math Before Yo Wreck Yo Math

March 2, 2009 at 4:56 pm

“Maybe if people had the wherewithal to actually hoof their ass down to their local comic shop and flip through a couple of floppies and trades to decide what to buy or (shock!) talk to the possibly knowledgeable person behind the counter, we wouldn’t be having this mind-numbingly dull shouting match.”

Maybe if more local comic book store owners didn’t run stores full of smells and cat piss men and spergs and stocked more than the big four…

Oh dear god, people, can’t we just bring up a WWII analogy and be done with this discussion?

I sincerely hope Brian Cronin has turned off comment notification for this post by this point (I should’ve done so long ago, but unfortunately am only getting around to it now). My apologies to him and his inbox for contributing yet another comment which is clearly not contributing anything to intelligent debate.

And, in case I wasn’t clear enough before…

If store owners wouldn’t make assholes of themselves on the internet, scaring away professional customers and making everyone in their profession look bad.

Guys… Go read Mike Sterling. Mike Sterling owns a comic store and also rules.

http://www.progressiveruin.com/

Mr O’Neill…

Thank you for ALMOST answering my question about whether you think people who use mailorder or buy news-stand reprints are scum- your answer seems to be “not if they buy them from me”. Is that about right?

On to the rest of your post…

No, but I’ve seen some parents treat them like daycare facilities.

I have absolutely NO CLUE how this is relevant to the discussion…

And furthermore, you little prick -

See why people are taking a disliking to you?

Don’t DARE say we’re having a hard time doing business

…Why? What, you going to reach across the internet and hit me? Grow up, for god’s sake.

And what the hell is your rant about kids in the shop about? I’m completely mystified by that. How on earth does that relate to the conversation?

(Oh, and please, can I point out that you’re talking to a full grown man. Please don’t call me “little” this and that- I get the impression you think you’re talking to a teenager or something. I’m 5 days off my 30th birthday, and 6’5″)

Given the way there’s three comic shops here within five minutes of each other. I don’t blame him for a second.

You don’t blame a guy for shouting at a regular customer (I had a sizable pull list with the store at the time) for walking into a comic shop in Forest Hill carrying a Forbidden Planet (a shop many miles away) carrier bag? You have a very strange idea of what constitutes good business practice. They don’t shout at me in Tesco’s for using a Sainsbury’s bag. Apparently you think they should.

This is a lie.

No it isn’t.

There is a HUGE difference between the two classes of “posters” on the site

Yes, I agree. However, you think they’re both scum, so I’m surprised you see a difference.

It’s blindingly obvious the latter were the extreme majority

No, it isn’t. Quite the reverse, in fact. And bearing in mind that you claim to have very little direct experience with the site, while I had at least a working familiarity with the place without actually being a regular user, can’t you consider the possibility that I might know better? Oh no, wait, that would be rational. Sorry, my mistake.

But really, we’re doing fine, while you’re sitting ranting about the “industry” and piracy and the price of comics.” First step to making any changes to these is by coming in, talking to us and picking up some books, not complaining about us because you had one bad experience .

I didn’t say a word about the price of comics. And I have had rather more than “one bad experience” with idiots in charge of comics shops. This has not stopped me from buying my comics in person, however- I continue to support shops that I actually like. Currently I buy most of my comics from A Place In Space, 101 Church Street, Croydon. It’s a lovely, lovely shop. The staff are friendly, helpful, and not at all like yourself. That said, I share your love of visiting other shops- one of the reasons I love Brighton as a holiday resort is because of Dave’s Comics, which is quite possibly the best comic shop I’ve ever been to. And I’m slightly ashamed to admit that I only recently visited Gosh! Comics for the first time- I had a very hard time dragging myself out of there.

I tell you this to make it clear that I am in fact exactly the kind of customer you describe having so much affection for… but from the way you’ve behaved in this thread, I wish I knew which shop you run so I could make a mental note NEVER to go there.

(Oh, and the “failed artist” crack…? I think that gives me one free shot. Fuckhead.)

I said:

“Doran essentially said don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.”

Oops. Mis-thought, then mis-typed. It was Brady, not Doran. Never communicated with Doran.

Joe Rice said:

“How could we encourage this here?”

Oh, you funny little man.

“support your local Comic Shop now”, “how dare you try and insinuate that our business is failing”

YOU said it was failing you fucking idiot. Why the fuck would we need to ‘support’ LCS if they were going so well. Either they are going well, in which case they don’t need support, or they aren’t, in which case why can’t we say that. Maybe you store is going really well, but you can’t argue that the majority of LCS are. You can’t have it both ways.

And no it isn’t a “self-answering question” because people subscribe to comics straight from the publishers. If everyone did so then LCS would all be dead. So I will ask again, are they the scum of the earth?

Furthermore, how the fuck do you know what went on in S_D if you never visited (OK once in six months). Are you some sort of telepath? Can you tell what I’m thinking now?

“Given the way there’s three comic shops here within five minutes of each other.” This shows how blinkered you are because I don’t think there is anywhere in my entire country where there is three comic shops within five minutes. What the fuck is the rest of the world supposed to do?

It really is too bad to hear that your shop is going well, because if it was to fail it couldn’t happen to a more deserving self-righteous dick.

Oh and David Wynne thanks for backing me up.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have thanked you David because you just ninjaed me. Ah well you put it better anyway.

Seriously, does anyone know what newsarama did to run Coil off? I’d implement it in a heartbeat.

Oh yes, one bit I forgot to highlight earlier-

none of our mail order customers appear to be parasites who use a site like scans

…that’s just comedy gold right there. What does a scans_daily user look like, exactly? And how do you know what your mail order customers look like, anyway? Do you insist on photos before you’ll take their orders or something?

Yeah, I’d love to know where Dave O’Neill works so I could avoid ever shopping there, even though location probably makes the issue moot, just because he’s the perfect example of “put you against his side of the argument regardless of how you’d normally feel about the issues involved through sheer ugly force of his cranky personality .” Just his crabby attitude and clownish vehemence is enough to drive a person straight to a torrent site just out of spite.

>>S_D was used to relentlessly criticise comics by good, hardworking creators

Fine, I stand corrected. I never was recommend comics by enthusiastic fans on S_D. I never returned the favor by recommending my favorites. In fact, I hate comics. I have never bought an issue. I have never picked one off of my bookshelves before bed and curled up with it, flipping through the pages before falling asleep. I have never cried while reading Maus.

I have never looked at the comics books I’ve found at garage sales and marveled that some kid bought them for the first time before I was born. I’ve never felt happiness that characters like Superman and Batman have been around since before my parents were born, and still have new adventures. I have never enjoyed the historical aspect of comics.

I have never brought a stack of comics along on a road trip in an effort to pull my friends into them. I have never been reworded when one of those friends started lending me brand new comics a month later.

And none of this passion was sparked by scans_daily.

Look, you love comics. I get that. You’ve been reading them longer than I have. You maybe run a comic book store. Just because your experience has been different from mine doesn’t make me a bad fan. So I was part of a community that discussed the good and the bad of comics? Doesn’t mean I don’t love them.

It just means I’m not blinded by my love.

[…] quotes because in my experience, members of S_D don’t seem to actually like comics.  Over at Comics Should Be Good!, Dave […]

I have to point out, by the way, that my LCS (Filbar’s) was busted a year ago for selling SCANS of their own comics. The irony is not lost upon me.

Which is why I started buying trades from Powerbooks instead, since that’s just poor form.

Mistervader, I think you may have just made mr O’Neill’s head explode. Since, following his logic, that makes every comic store owner a subhuman pirate (if all scans_daily users are the same, then all comic shop owners are the same, right?). HOW WILL HE LIVE WITH HIMSELF NOW?

Because I don’t see the advantage in writing this twice:

http://thenodrin.livejournal.com/96375.html?mode=reply

Theno

universaladdress

March 2, 2009 at 10:29 pm

They feature scanned content from print comics on Livejournal’s webspace. They were going to get shut down eventually.

>>…that’s just comedy gold right there. What does a scans_daily user look like, exactly? And how do you know what your mail order customers look like, anyway? Do you insist on photos before you’ll take their orders or something?

Actually, we know exactly what they’re like, because we keep their credit card details on file.

>>I tell you this to make it clear that I am in fact exactly the kind of customer you describe having so much affection for

Then why promote a site like Scans??? You’re one step above the bottom feeders who promote piracy.

Truthfully, the comments saying “I’d never go into your shop” don’t bother me. You wern’t shopping with us before. David Wynne in particular appears to be the sub-class of customer who treats our place like we publish the comics ourselves. I’d love if you came to the store and had a proper discusion about the future of comics, but if you’re going to promote a pro-piracy website, you’re no better than the scum who pushed a sandwich into the back issues.

>>(Oh, and the “failed artist” crack…? I think that gives me one free shot. Fuckhead.)

Little bit too close to home their chief???

Actually, we know exactly what they’re like, because we keep their credit card details on file.

How does that tell you if they go to scans_daily?

Then why promote a site like Scans??? You’re one step above the bottom feeders who promote piracy

Firstly, I’m not promoting it. I’m saying that it wasn’t the nest of pirates you make it out to have been. I’m telling you what iit was as opposed to what you think it was, that’s all.

David Wynne in particular appears to be the sub-class of customer who treats our place like we publish the comics ourselves.

And once again you’re drifting off into some weird conversation inside your head that the rest of us aren’t party to. Everything I’ve said about comics shops has been about the way staff treat customers. What does that have to do with who publishes the comics? What point are you trying to make, beyond throwing insults around?

Little bit too close to home their chief???

No, I’m pretty happy with the way things are going with my art, thanks. Steven Grant described my writing as “tough and clever” the other week, so I don’t feel like I have much to prove right now. I thought it was just needlessly insulting, on a personal level, even compared to the rest of your bullshit, and there fore deserving of a properly pointed response.

Come on, I’m dying to know what (apparently booming) shop you work for. If you’re so confident that your opinions won’t be offensive to the people you actually want as customers, you should be happy to tell us. I’ll take great pleasure in reposting your comments here to my livejournal and telling everyone which shop you work for. Which shop is it?

>>I’m saying that it wasn’t the nest of pirates you make it out to have been. I’m telling you what iit was as opposed to what you think it was, that’s all.

This is opinion. I’m saying – in my experiences of Scans – I’ve seen more of the pirates and subhuman scum. I’ve yet to see otherwise in the shop, or indeed, meet this mythical class of punter who buys comics based on seeing stuff on Scans.

>>Come on, I’m dying to know what (apparently booming) shop you work for

Thankfully, I don’t feel the need to share that with you. Or legally have to. I like…most of the customers we have already. As I said, it takes an extreme – like the half term freakshow to hack me off.

“my experiences of Scans” “I’ve used Scans exactly once in the last six months”

So by your own admission you have fuck all experiences on S_D, so I guess you opinions don’t count for fuck. You’re a good person to argue with Dave, you do all my work yourself.

You seem to have this baseless, by your own admission, view of the community of S_D, so I’ll explain this to you. Very few people ever asked for scans because they were ALREADY THERE. S_D may have been full of pirates but they were efficient pirates.

The community on S_D wasn’t illegal, they only did illegal things. As someone who actually has experience rather than prejudice I’m telling you the S_D has vibrant discussions between hundreds of people over the nature of the comic medium, particularly relating to feminist and homosexual themes. Going into an LCS and discussing who would win in a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk isn’t quite the same.

Here’s Gail Simone’s take on it

http://schmevil.livejournal.com/161736.html?thread=1006024#t1006024

(She the scum of the earth too Dave?)

Here’s Kurt Busiek (in the comments)

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2009/02/livejournal-shuts-down-scans-daily-community/

(And I liked Astro City. Ah well, scum of the earth)

>> Going into an LCS and discussing who would win in a fight between Wolverine and the Hulk isn’t quite the same.

I’ve never had a discussion in the shop about who’d win a fight between Wolverine and Hulk.

>>> S_D has vibrant discussions between hundreds of people over the nature of the comic medium, particularly relating to feminist and homosexual themes

While promoting piracy

>>> S_D may have been full of pirates but they were efficient pirates.

Efficient scum is still scum.

From the Wonder Woman writer
I have spoken with some S-D mods and the thing that I felt is undeniable is that they DO respect the creators and sincerely believe that what they are doing isn’t hurtful.

This is laughable. Just ask Peter David.

(Welcome folks to ‘Rhetoric the Dave O’Neill way’)

“I’ve never had a discussion in the shop about who’d win a fight between Wolverine and Hulk.”

This is lies. I once went into a LCS six months ago and they were discussing who’d win a fight between Wolverine and Hulk therefore it must be what you talk about all the time in every LCS.

OK, fine, yes you’ve never discussed who’d win that fight. But can you honestly tell me that you have ever discussed feminist and homosexual themes in comics in your store? Can you honestly tell me that discussions that go on for days with hundreds of participants can compare to a couple of guys talking for ten minutes?

“Efficient scum is still scum.” Ah so you agree that your previous assertion that scan beggers were in the extreme majority was wrong. Good to know you can admit to doing something wrong.

“This is laughable. Just ask Peter David.”

Are you now saying that you know comic creator’s feelings better than they do? Must be that telepathy coming back. Note that Gail was talking about S_D MODS, like Schmevil who said “we don’t want this to turn into a witch hunt” (http://schmevil.livejournal.com/161736.html) There are plenty of dicks on S_D who jumped to conclusions, but the whole community shouldn’t be judged by the actions of a few vocal idiots. Just imagine how bad it would be if all comic store owners were judged to be like Dave O’Neill. How unfair would that be.

>>but the whole community shouldn’t be judged by the actions of a few vocal idiots

Funnily enough – I agree. However – the vocal idiots WERE THE MAJORITY! It’s one thing to go and clip a jpeg of Scott Pilgrim, which I did, because I wanted a picture of Scott Pilgrim. Its another thing to take an issue of a comic which the creator speficially said “please don’t spoil this”, and say “Ha Ha, here’s the big reveal”

What do you think the vocal idiots were guilty of???

Yes, copyright infringement happened at Scans_Daily. No, it was not the majority. As I said in my LJ, it was an incredibly high traffic site.

And, Peter David reported the infringement to Marvel because it is his job to do so. He is their employee, and they have asked that their employees alert their legal team of infringement. AFAIK, he is not personally upset about the scans from X-Factor being posted. In fact, he only went to the site because someone posted inflammatory, threatening, hurtful explicative directed toward him, personally.

Theno

Needs moar broad strokes on that paintjob.

For those of you who were mourning it’s loss, according to Rich Johnston, scans daily is back…
http://comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=20265

“I asked this at Johanna Draper Carlson’s blog, and I’ll ask it here:

“Scans_daily got me to buy comics I never heard of before.”

Where’s the hard evidence that sites like scans_daily and Pirate Bay benefit the industry more than they hurt? Like hard evidence, not comments like the one above.

B/c really, as those sites become more prevelant, aren’t we seeing overall sales go down….down….down….?”

Um… no.

Even Peter David’s now admitted as much:

http://www.peterdavid.net/index.php/2009/03/02/when-im-wrong-i-say-im-wrong/

“Yes, copyright infringement happened at Scans_Daily. No, it was not the majority. As I said in my LJ, it was an incredibly high traffic site.

And, Peter David reported the infringement to Marvel because it is his job to do so. He is their employee, and they have asked that their employees alert their legal team of infringement. AFAIK, he is not personally upset about the scans from X-Factor being posted. In fact, he only went to the site because someone posted inflammatory, threatening, hurtful explicative directed toward him, personally.

Theno”

Actually, no, he’s stated he went to the site because someone in the forums here posted a link to it stating that X-Factor 40 could be read there. They didn’t point out the DIAF comment, but the scans. So he’s already stated that he went to site to see if they were posting “illegal” scans and reported it to Marvel accordingly.

Based on some educated guesswork here, I’m thinkin’ that Scans_Daily probably hurt the big Mainstream titles – Your Civil War or Justice League style books –

(Because, come-the-fuck-on, who’s gonna buy a copy of Civil War or the current Justice League series after seeing a preview)

and helped Indy, niche, and older titles. I can’t imagine that posting pages of a sixty year old Jack Cole story (PS: Awesome! I may have to check out S_D more regularly in the future) or even a ten year old Superman/Madman team-up is gonna do anything but turn people on to stuff they didn’t know existed and maybe – and this is a bit of a long shot, but maybe – sell some comics.

>>Where’s the hard evidence that sites like scans_daily and Pirate Bay benefit the industry more than they hurt? Like hard evidence, not comments like the one above.

I’m sure bit torrent sites like Pirate Bay don’t help sales. But scans_daily wasn’t a bit torrent site. The purpose of S_D wasn’t to exchange free comics. The purpose was to post scans from a comic and then discuss them. By the rules, half or less of a story could be posted. Yes, sometimes people broke the rules, but the vast majority of the time, only a few pages were posted.

Sure, someone might see a third of a story and decide that they no longer want to buy that issue. But that’s not the same as downloading the whole thing, reading it all, and deciding that a digital copy is enough for you. It’s more comparable to someone flipping through an issue at the store, deciding the art and story aren’t up to par, and setting it aside. For every person who sets the issue aside after a flip-through, there is at least one who is intrigued and buys it.

There is no hard evidence that S_D has hurt or helped the industry, but my personal experience is that S_D led me to buy comics. Lots and lots of comics. My experience isn’t everyones, of course, but the motto of S_D was, “You’re never the only one.”

This is opinion. I’m saying – in my experiences of Scans – I’ve seen more of the pirates and subhuman scum.

Right, let me see if I can grab you while you’re experience a moment of lucidity- Yes, the things I’m saying are my opinion, based on my experience; just as the things you are saying are your opinion based on your experience… but you keep saying that other people’s opinions are lies, which is both offensive and illogical, and furthermore, you have, by your own admission, far less experience of the subject at hand than those you are disagreeing with. Which means that your opinions carry considerably less weight.

Also, I find it hilarious the way you counter other people siting the opinions of creators by saying “just ask Peter David”. Sorry, I’d rather ask Gail Simone and Warren Ellis.

And I STILL don’t know what the hell your hatred for children has to with this discussion.

Joe Rice, professional funnyman, wrote:

“Seriously, does anyone know what newsarama did to run Coil off? I’d implement it in a heartbeat.”

Sorry, Joe, there’s no way to run me off, as NuNuNewsarama didn’t run me off. I ran myself off. I didn’t like the way it was being run, so I said my goodbyes and left. And then Brady gave me some parting gifts.

What, exactly, about how they were running the site, offended you so much?

Just out of curiosity.

“What do you think the vocal idiots were guilty of???”

Well, in this particular instance, they were guilty of jumping to conclusions about Peter David, which I though would have been obvious when I said in the same sentence that they “jumped to conclusions”. Lots of S_D users said mean things about Peter David which was wrong given A) he probably had nothing to do with the closure S_D and B) even if he did he was well within his rights to do so. I would apologise unreservedly for there unjustifiable actions. But what a few dicks did AFTER S_D was closed should justify any opinion on the site itself.

“However – the vocal idiots WERE THE MAJORITY!”

I have to ask you again how you know this. It only takes one user to post a spoiler, how does that make them a majority. I personally don’t see why Peter David was so worried about this spoiler anyway. It’s not as if it was posted in some unrelated thread to catch people as a troll, the only people who would have got spoiled were ones who wanted to. And what’s more, copyright infringement may be illegal but spoilering ISN’T.

MaddyOh dear god, people, can’t we just bring up a WWII analogy and be done with this discussion?

You know, I haven’t heart to Godwin things, even in jest, despite Dave O’Neill’s Goebbels-like ranting and raving.

Dave O’Neill — good God, man, have you any idea what sort of ill-mannered, ill-informed, unpleasant lout you’re making yourself out to be? Perhaps you had a good point or two somewhere in the free-flowing stream of invective and insult, but the charnel-house stench of the majority of your posts leaves me unwilling to go digging for them.

No wonder you don’t want to tell anyone the name of your shop. Were I you, I’d be living in mortal fear that some of my customers were reading your ravings and becoming unwilling to ever go near you again, for fear of psychological or physical abuse at your hands. You certainly wouldn’t retain me as a customer; I’ve had more than my fill of the boorishly self-righteous over the years, not to mention my fill of unpleasant shopping environments, and I would be off without a goodbye.

Joe & Alan: I believe the popular response these days, to such off-topic, destructive banter, is: GET A ROOM. ;)

On topic, re: ask a creator: since they have no ownership of most of the copyrighted work posted, isn’t that a moot argument? And, even if they were, I’d be more of the thought that one person violated by the breaking of the law is enough to take action on. No matter how many “I kinda liked it” creators you find, they’ll not outweigh the ones who feel victimized.

This reminds me of a local nightclub. It was a great place to hear local bands. They had good alcohol, both popular and fringe brands. The community in the club introduced a lot of people to little known music styles. The kitchen even had some house specialties such as a unique buffallo wing sauce blend.

But, if you knew when to go, you could also score some drugs.

And, when the nightclub was raided and shut down by the police, the indi scene complained that their gathering place was ruined. They all stressed the positives and said how the people who tipped off the police were the ones in the wrong. No one blamed the drug dealers. In fact, many people pointed out how drugs could be gotten in so many other places that it was “unreasonable” to shut down the club.

This discussion reminds me of that incident.

Theno

Which is hilarious, since you’re the guy who admitted sparking this whole thing off.

>> good God, man, have you any idea what sort of ill-mannered, ill-informed, unpleasant lout you’re making yourself out to be?

I don’t care. I never thought I’d be shouted down by assholes like you simply for speaking out against a criminal activity.

>>No wonder you don’t want to tell anyone the name of your shop. Were I you, I’d be living in mortal fear that some of my customers were reading your ravings and becoming unwilling to ever go near you again, for fear of psychological or physical abuse at your hands

Today in the shop – a customer asked me to get him something off a high shelf, and then refused to buy it, claiming he could get it somewhere else cheaper. OBVIOUSLY, in your twisted world view, I should be on my knees begging him to stay, and OBVIOUSLY, giving him it for free, lest he come here.

You’ve never been in the store I work in (work in, not run) – and believe it or not – I’ve actually had letters of commendation, from customers, praising my helpfulness. Know what the difference between them and you is – they want to talk about comics. All you want is to destroy the industry. Sites like Scans Daily are out to kill the retail industry. If there was a site out there, dedicated to putting music online so you didn’t have to pay for it – the record industry would go beserk.

Thank God they did.

Believe it or not, I actually stayed away from here for a day, hoping that clearer heads might prevail. But when subhumans like Kevin Huxford come off as the voice of reason, and scum like David Wynne and you actively campaign for me to lose my job, well, there’s really only one recourse.

Hitler.

I’ve been banned from Newsarama, and the Image Comics messageboards – and believe me – that was actually fun. I fully expect to get censored here aswell, but strangely, this? Not as much fun.

That’s my motto: a subhuman serving up a voice of reason since Feb. 2008.

Don’t get me wrong – I don’t like your opinions on the comics industry either, but, your comments here have been remarkably saner..

I must have missed that dictionary definition of insanity: something you disagree with. ;) But don’t let me drag this off in another direction, as I don’t feel like springing for the costs of a room. The economy being what it is and all…

Okay, last go round the merry go round…

I never thought I’d be shouted down by assholes like you simply for speaking out against a criminal activity.

You’re being argued with for calling people assholes and scum, and for judging an enormous group of people on the actions of a few- not for speaking out against criminal activity.

Let me make something crystal clear: I do not support piracy of any media, let alone comics. Not at all, not even a little bit. It’s wrong, pure and simple.

I do not regard promoting a comic you like by showing people a few pages you think they’ll like as piracy, any more than playing a few songs to a friend to get them into an album is piracy. And you know, the law is actually on my side on that view.

There was, apparently, a certain amount of “soft piracy” going on at scans, and I agree that that needed to be stopped. But that doesn’t make everyone who ever visited the site scum, and it doesn’t make everyone who ever disagrees with you scum either.

OBVIOUSLY, in your twisted world view, I should be on my knees begging him to stay, and OBVIOUSLY, giving him it for free, lest he come here

…that’s a lovely strawman you have there. Nice work. Now stop arguing with the voices in your head, and come back and talk to the rest of us.

All you want is to destroy the industry

…right, The industry I’m currently in the process of breaking into, with the intention of moving from indy amateaur to paid professional- I want to destroy that business. Of course. That makes SO much sense.

I still want to know a few things that you’ve failed to answer:

1: if you think I’m scum for buying comics in bookshops and from the newsagent. You’ve made it clear you think I’m scum for shopping in more than one comic shop (despite admitting to doing the same yourself)

2: where your appparently intimate knowledge of a site you’ve barely visited to comes from

3: What the hell the “sandwich in the comics” incident has to do with the price of rice

4: Why you think it’s acceptable to refer to people you just happen to have a difference of opinion with as being subhuman scum and assholes and shitstains and so on and so forth

I don’t expect satisfactory answers to these questions, to be honest. I expect any answer, if there is one, to begin with a random quote, answered with a complete non-sequitor (probably involving the words “subhuman”, “scum” or both), followed by a rambling story of the time somebody looked at you funny on the bus and YOU KNEW THEY WERE FANTASISING ABOUT YOUR GIRLFRIEND I BET THEY DOWNLOAD COMICS OH MY GOD IS THAT A SANDWICH IN HIS HAND

…Get help, Mr O’Neill. I don’t think you’re well.

Theno-

That’s a pretty good analogy. Thing is:

many people pointed out how drugs could be gotten in so many other places that it was “unreasonable” to shut down the club.

is actually a pretty reasonable arument. A strong police presence outside the nightclub, performing searches and so forth, combined perhaps with an undercover operation to find the source of the flow of drugs into the place, could have sorted out the problem without necessarily killing the scene.

(That said, if I’d been a regular at the club, I would have blamed the drug-dealers. I’ve been a regular at a pub that went from being a great place to go to being bloody horrible entirely because drug-dealers moved in. And I should mention that this was many many years ago, and I was in fact an addict myself at the time, and I still got angry with the dealers for dealing in my local, because I knew how that was going to end…).

Actually, I’m single. She chucked me. I got over it.

And with regards the sandwich comment you’re fetishising on – if you had actually read all my comments – I said, as much as we’d like our business to skyrocket – I’d prefer one decent customer a week – to a gang of juvenile delinquents who invaded the shop last week on half term, wreaking havoc (criminal havoc, as it happened) – one of which was one of them pushing a half uneaten sandwich into the back issue bin.

Which customer would you prefer?

>>Why you think it’s acceptable to refer to people you just happen to have a difference of opinion with as being subhuman scum and assholes and shitstains and so on and so forth

They brought it on themselves. We’ve a regular occurance of prank callers calling us “fucking nerds”. Ergo – I call them what I like.

>> if you think I’m scum for buying comics in bookshops and from the newsagent. You’ve made it clear you think I’m scum for shopping in more than one comic shop (despite admitting to doing the same yourself)

There’s a difference between a bookstore and a comic store. Thats why they call it the DIRECT market, and the INDIRECT/Bookstore market. Obviously we’d prefer if you shopped in our store, but, whatever.

And I don’t have a problem with people shopping in another store. I resent the free advertising for that store. As it happens – I know the guy who runs the rival store, and the guy who runs the graphic novel section of the bookstore near us. Its a small town, and..thank God, they’re great guys. As it happens, I even sent a customer to our rivals today to look for a back issue. Thats supporting the industry.

But, for you to come along flaunting your bags in another store’s face. Thats just rude, asshole.

And, as for the constant harrassment about my “knowledge” of scans daily – its a website. I used to look at it when it was a site devoted to, you know funny pictures and superdickery style panels – and when I wasn’t working for the comic book store. When the pirates took over, i stopped going as regularly. It helped that I took my own livejournal offline in protest at LiveJournal’s censorship and I didnt have a feed in my friends page. It helped further that Marvel/DC started giving better previews to sites like Newsarama and CBR (even if Newsarama only promote the DC books)

Whoah. I can’t believe it took me this long to put two and two together.

Dave ‘O Neil is a sock-puppet from the scans daily fans. The whole thing is a complete fake, a way to discredit comics retailers by making it look like IF you set foot in a comic store, you will… well, have to deal with people like Dave O’ Neil.

Somebody’s simply trying to make comic retailers look bad, possibly reflecting their own negative experience. Why, I dunno. But nobody’s who’s actual rent-and-food livelihood depends on getting bodies into a comic shop would do this much wok to keep people out of comic shops.

MarkAndrew-

…you know, that thought had occured to me, and deep down I really, really hope you’re right. But the truth is, my experiences tell me different…

You know, I agree with the “O’Neill is a troll” argument. Only someone trolling intentionally would tell such obvious lies about scans_daily as “back when it was a funny pictures site”. That was exactly never, it was always about posting scans.

And anyone pirating from scans_daily is really, really bad at it. There’s much better sources of full issues that can be downloaded the day they ship (or before) in full .cbz form. scans_daily only offered individual, often cropped pages that popped up a lot more slowly. Funny how nobody’s shutting the hardcore pirates down– probably because doing that would require more effort.

Mark Andrew

So you approve of “customers” being allowed to be rude and abusive??? I’m just fascinated by your train of thought.

Which customer would you prefer?

More to the point, what the hell has that got to do with the coversation? You still haven’t explained that.

They brought it on themselves. We’ve a regular occurance of prank callers calling us “fucking nerds”. Ergo – I call them what I like.

So, because you get prank calls, it’s okay to call me subhuman? What?

But, for you to come along flaunting your bags in another store’s face. Thats just rude, asshole

I had some books to carry. I picked up the first carrier bag than came to hand to put them in before I left the house. It happened to be a forbidden Planet bag. While I was out, I walked into my local comic shop to have a browse and pick up my pull list. As I walked through the door, the owner started shouting and swearing at me across the shop, at which point I realised what was printed on the side of the bag… I wasn’t “flaunting” anything at anyone. And, to repeat, the shop was bloody miles from the nearest Forbidden Planet, so it’s not like they were direct business rivals. The guy just objected to the idea that I was spending any of my money elsewhere.

Your last paragraph is hilarious. So, now you reveal your secret past as an ex-scans regular… “before the pirates took over”. That’s interesting, but makes your earlier statements like “S_D was used to relentlessly criticise comics by good, hardworking creators” and your charcterising all scans_daily users as being either homophobic morons laughing at yaoi or subhuman pirate scum look awfully odd. So am I to take it you were on of the homophobic morons laughing at the yaoi?

(Oh, and Newsarama puts up Marvel previews all the time? )

… in closing I shall just ask, out of curiosity- Why exactly am I scum? I’m not a pirate, I don’t promote piracy, I don’t put sandwiches anywhere near comics or make prank phone calls… is it just because I keep pulling you up for being such a prick to everyone?

“Sites like Scans Daily are out to kill the retail industry.”

Here we get to the crux of the argument. The criminality of S_D isn’t that it will destroy the RETAIL industry, it’s that it will destroy the WHOLESALE industry. If someone who actually created comics came here and complained then we would have to be silent, because we would have no argument.

Creators, whose moral rights to their work are being violated, have a right to be angry. But I don’t see what the fuck this has to do with you. You obviously worried about the state of the retail comic industry, but the retail comic industry was hurting before internet comic piracy.

There are two reasons why comic pirates should feel guilty about piracy A) they are abusing moral rights of creators and B) they are destroying the wholesale industry and therefore shooting themselves in the foot. However as LCS have no moral rights to works nor are they necessary for the wholesale industry neither of them apply to you.

If you had said “You abused creators rights. You should be ashamed of that” then there would have been no recourse, because you would have been right. But you tried to make this about YOU when it was never about you, that was your problem.

There are many people who have a right to feel hurt by comic piracy. Unfortunately none of those people are you.

>>>(Oh, and Newsarama puts up Marvel previews all the time? )

This is not the place for this conversation – but Matt Brady goes out of his way to bury any promotion of Marvel books.

>>>ex-scans regular

Irregular.

>>>>Which customer would you prefer?

More to the point, what the hell has that got to do with the coversation? You still haven’t explained that.

And once again – you’ve ignored my point. I want the business to thrive – but not at the expense of property, and my dignity in dealing with little fucks who treat the shop like a playground. This is the third time I’m after stressing that, but you’ve repeatedly ignored me, in favour of making immature jokes about sandwiches.

>>>The guy just objected to the idea that I was spending any of my money elsewhere.

And, given the current economic climate, I agree with him.

And, given the current economic climate, I agree with him.

A: It was over a decade ago and B: That still doesn’t justify it, because as a consumer I have a right to shop where I like, and as a human being I have a right not to be verbally abused.

And once again – you’ve ignored my point. I want the business to thrive – but not at the expense of property, and my dignity in dealing with little fucks who treat the shop like a playground.

And yet again I have to ask what that has to do with scans_daily. You obviously believe there’s some kind of connection, but you’ve yet to make clear what that is.

And once more, with feeling- Why am I scum, Dave? What makes me subhuman? Because I don’t fit any of your criterea, but you’ve still applied the label to me. Please elaborate.

Dave O’Neill

Oh, dear goddess, aren’t you a piece of work? You’re so ludicrous that I can’t actually get angry at you, just sit here in amusement as you tar and feather yourself further and further with each post. I know your type, old son, I really do; you’re worldwide, you are, and all of a type, with your tantrum-squeals that usually devolve quickly into insults and invective.

So…still have your head shaved and a fondness for Doc Martens and brown shirts, son? I can see you’re endlessly angry with what you perceive as your place in the world.

I do appreciate the correction, though, old boy, in being informed that you’re just one of the floorwalkers and not the Uber Boss Of It All. Even less wonder that you won’t want to give out the name of your workplace; I’m sure your employer wouldn’t be too impressed with your proven techniques for driving custom from the door. As for the Twat Factor…it’s the price of doing business. People in retail develop techniques for dealing with the idiots. Then again, people in retail often develop techniques for screwing over and abusing customers. I think I know which school you attended.

You note that you’ve been banned from several places. I think that’s pretty much the final word on you, isn’t it? You’re that guy that bouncers chuck bodily out of clubs and women file orders of protection against and who winds up on the wrong side of an ASBO.

“I do not support piracy of any media, let alone comics. Not at all, not even a little bit. It’s wrong, pure and simple.”

Oh, for the love of…!

No offense meant, David, but please, I don’t need defending from some kid who just wants to listen to my song!

-Alan Coil

“I’ve been to Canada,,,it needs to be insulted.”

So, I’m just going to preface this by saying I’m not offended or irritated at all. This is not a defensive post.

But, really, the whole “making fun of Canada” shtick is lame. It’s played out beyond repair, and based on an idea that just isn’t funny. “It’s another country. Ha!” You’re acting like the dude who quotes “Family Guy” non-stop. By the time you got to the joke, it was already killed ten years ago.

This goes for talking about how awesome bacon is, Chuck Norris jokes, and saying “that’s how I roll”, too.

I got to throw five brats out of the shop today~ Good times…..

[…] at CBR, Brian Cronin noted that Peter David reported the site to Marvel over some scans recently and that may have contributed […]

[…] for, personally and professionally, but he’s tied pretty closely to a moment that almost killed that site and did involve that site having to shut down and relocate. This is not to say that he is at fault, […]

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