Comic Book Resources

This had to be the final matchup, and this had to be the result.
Spider-Man is a great character, no shame in losing to the Bat in the finals.
But it had to be this way.

Yeah, I had a feeling this would happen. Even in the real world or a comic shop it would be close, but on the internet there is definitely more of a pro-DC bias than you find off the internet so Spidey’s fate was sealed from the beginning.

Re: T

Really? I’m relatively new to comics but I’ve heard very few nice things said about DC in that time.

T.

I’ve read comic books for 25+ years. Sometimes I’ve read more Marvel than DC, sometimes more DC than Marvel. At times more Fantagraphics, Dark Horse, Comico, etc. than either. My vote had nothing to do with which corporate ownership I preferred.

It had nothing to do with DC vs Marvel. Batman is just the man.

The only real internet interference was the Speed Force/Flash rallying, IMHO. Batman’s just that popular.

(Seriously, I like Wally, but there’s no way that Batman should get only 57% on the Flash if he gets 61% on Spiderman.)

A few points -

1. The pro-DC bias of the internet? Fuck the heck?

2. Kelson’s great, and I’m sure he sent some fellows over to vote for Wally, which I think is great – I enjoy seeing people get behind their characters – but come on, people, you’re way off base if you really think that Speed Force had some major impact upon the voting. Wally was the 5th highest vote-getter in the 07 poll, so the fact that he beat the 4th highest vote-getter and didn’t get destroyed by the highest vote-getter is not all that surprising.

3. As to the vote margins, Batman was only up by 5 percent (less than half his lead over Wally) before I had Jonah link to us on the CBR front page. THEN Batman’s margin shot up to 22 percent. The casual voter went for Batman. If it were not for that, then the voting margins would have been completely typical (i.e. shrinking for each round of voting).

DC hax

For all the people who have or are going to complain about Batman winning: He’s probably the most versatile character in all of fiction, anywhere, as his 70-year history will dictate. Spider-Man got boring a few months after Ditko left.

Brian, remember you promised a prize of some sort to whomever predicted the Final Four and the winner. Though on quick glance through the comments on the first post about the tourney, it doesn’t look like anybody won outright.

I didn’t realize it was such a controversial statement…you guys really don’t find that the internet (message boards, forums and blogosphere) have more of a DC bias than the real world? I thought it was a generally accepted thing?

No, it is so far from a generally accepted thing that it led to me saying “Fuck the heck?” in reaction to it being brought up.

For all the people who have or are going to complain about Batman winning: He’s probably the most versatile character in all of fiction, anywhere, as his 70-year history will dictate. Spider-Man got boring a few months after Ditko left.

Batman is great as one of the pioneering characters that paved the way for Spider-Man, but no way is he anywhere as good as Spider-Man. Spider-Man is basically the pinnacle of superhero comic achievement, yet to be surpassed. In fact, Spider-Man paved the way for older characters like Superman and Batman to finally start having interesting, character-based stories.

“This had to be the final matchup, and this had to be the result.” My feelings exactly. They are by far the most popular character of their brand. Spidey was a worthy opponent, but as the saying goes: “Give Batman time, and he’ll beat Galactus”. In fiction (his adventures) or in reality (the turn of the tide from a dead franchise to a billion dollar oscar winning one), Batman will beat the odds and will rise triumphant.

Also… well done, Wally. To my generation, you’ll always be the Fastest Man Alive, bar none.

“Give Batman time, and he’ll beat Galactus”

Give Batman time and he’ll beat Superman, the Spectre, DC’s version of God, whoever. That would totally fly in a DC book. But he won’t beat Galactus or any other cosmic-based Marvel character outside of fanfiction. Marvel just doesn’t work that way. They’d never even allow Captain America or Spider-Man to pull off such a thing.

T., the DC fans are definitely slightly more vocal on the net, but I attribute that more to the general fanaticism of hardcore DC fans than anything else. Outside of the people who think Green Lantern under Geoff Johns is the best comic ever written, DC is still a pretty huge target for ridicule online, and I can’t think of a single website where the consensus on DiDio is favorable. Just because people like Green Lantern and like Blue Beetle doesn’t really mean that the internet loves most of the stuff they put out right now.

I mean, even on the CBR forums the DC boards get half as much traffic as most the Marvel ones.

3000 votes? That’s damned impressive (people didn’t vote twice, right?)

I guess I’ll accept second place for my favorite character, as long as it’s to Batman.

(Still not accepting his 6th place showing in the favorite runs voting though…)

For all the people who have or are going to complain about Batman winning: He’s probably the most versatile character in all of fiction, anywhere, as his 70-year history will dictate. Spider-Man got boring a few months after Ditko left.

As a huge fan of Batman, I have to say that the Bat books were pretty boring and/or terrible for the wide majority of those 70 years (or more accurately, the samples I’ve taken from the different eras – I haven’t gone through all or even a third of Batman’s monstrous history). In contrast, Amazing retained at least mid-level intrigue up to issue 200, and only petered out for a few years before Roger Stern picked up the reins and drove Spidey back to Ditko levels of awesome.

I think the real issue here is that the Spider-Man franchise is boring NOW and the Batman franchise is cool NOW and that holds more sway with voters than the character’s history, which they may not be too familiar with. As Brian said, it’s the casual voter who favored Batman most. I’m pretty sure this would’ve played out differently in 2002, after Spider-Man’s successful film and during the auspicious beginning of JMS’s run with Jenkins on Spectacular and Ultimate Spider-Man pulling like $40 per back issue.

3000 votes? That’s damned impressive (people didn’t vote twice, right?)

It’s a lot easier to get votes cast when all people have to do is click a button.

Now when we ask them to sit down and write out their ten favorites in descending order, THEN voter response shrinks.

Give Batman time and he’ll beat Superman, the Spectre, DC’s version of God, whoever. That would totally fly in a DC book. But he won’t beat Galactus or any other cosmic-based Marvel character outside of fanfiction. Marvel just doesn’t work that way. They’d never even allow Captain America or Spider-Man to pull off such a thing.

Uh…

http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing/270.jpg

I fogot to come here and vote for Spidey…

…739 times

Yay Batman : )
(Also I love ‘spider-man got boring a few months after ditko left’ haha)

I’ve never noticed a DC bias on the net. In fact, during these polls I’ve noticed a lot of people comment that they’ll only vote Marvel.

As far as which of these two heroes is greater, that’s obviously subjective, but a tough call nonetheless. It’s true that Spidey was probably the first hero with a real character beyond “I will fight the forces of evil and save the day”. He was the everyman that readers could identify with. But over the past couple of decades Batman has had so much more going for him.

Batman’s had: DKR, Year One, Arkham Asylum, the Long Halloween, Morrison’s JLA, a Death in the Family, Black and White, Son of the Demon, and more. Not to mention four great movies (two Burton and two Nolan – and some people have a soft spot for the Adam West stuff) and some excellent animated series.

Spidey’s had: Lee and Ditko and Lee and Romita Sr year’s ago, but since then it’s been slim pickings for great stuff imo. There’s Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut, Kraven’s last hunt, JMS and Romita Jr (I liked Jenkins as well), and, ummm… a couple of good Raimi movies. The fact that he’s remained as popular as he is is a testament to the great work of those first three creators.

Spider-man’s a whiny, self-absorbed Baby Boomer/Gen X loser. I’ve very rarely enjoyed him at all, except maybe as a foil.

Batman rules.

And internet bias FOR DC? Insanity. Does the internet hate anything more than DC?

Thank you, Cass. Beat me to it.

(I love that story, btw. Gas station = hidden kryptonite)

Too bad. Nothing against Batman but he isn’t nearly as interesting as Spider-man is.

Though som eof the fault was that he was TOO perfect a character, which has been imitated so many times that he no logner feels fresh.

Oh well.

Batman’s a borderline psychotic, spoiled rich kid. I’ve very rarely enjoyed him at all, except maybe as a foil.

I’ve always thought that Spidey is the best all around character in comics. He is the archetype of the modern hero.

I like Batman, but his portrayals have been too inconsistent for my tastes.

There’s really only one Spider-man character, but I’m curious to know just which Batman won this poll (maybe it’s the something-for-everyone aspect of the character that put him over the top).

I haven’t seen a pro-DC bias on the ‘net (The Absorbascon is about the only blog written by someone who writes enthusiastically about CURRENT DC comics), but I have seen a lot of nostalgia for quality DC comics of the past (e.g. Suicide Squad and Messner-Loebs Flash). Still, some posters said they were going to vote for certain characters in this poll because they were Marvel characters.

Batman can be plugged into any type of super-hero story- sci-fi, noirish, relevant (a la Green Lantern/ Green Arrow), one about the hero’s effect on the populace, disaster, alternate world- pretty easily. Spider-Man, while versatile, doesn’t work as well outside of New York City (witness almost any “grim-n-gritty” Spider-Man story, excepting Kraven’s Last Hunt). Batman might whine about his parents or former partners, but Spider-Man takes it to another level. Batman and Spider-Man both have cool costumes, but Batman’s has a greater effect; imagine Batman in silhouette vs. Spider-Man in the shadows. Spider-Man has the Ditko, Romita, & Stern issues, plus a smattering of good work and two good movies. Batman has Dark Knight Returns, Year One, Dick Sprang’s Golden Age art, the O’Neil/ Adams and Englehart/ Rogers issues, the Grant/ Breyfogle stories, several quality mini-seris and one-shots, Rucka’s Detective issues, the animated series and good movies… Hell, I liked No Man’s Land (at least the first 4 months and last 2 months) and Bruce Wayne: Murderer/ Fugitive, but I realize they’re not favorites among everybody.

I’ll concede that War Games might have been worse than the Clone Saga, though.

Batman has had consistently better movie & cartoons, “Batman & Robin” excepted. Spidey’s last movie was so-so and the cartoons have been extremely hit-and-miss.

“They’d never even allow Captain America or Spider-Man to pull off such a thing.” Yes, but Cap (or Bats) could do it if he used the Ultimate Nullifier.

I am surprised by the amount of brand loyalty by some posters.
I was a Marvel zombie who ridiculed DC’s offerings…when I was 13. Considering the vast range the comics medium is capable of, it seems foolish to me to have such dedication to one flavor of mainstream superhero comics to the exclusion of the other. In the big picture, they’re really not that different. I doubt that most people who voted for Batman dislike Spider-Man, and vice-versa.

I also didn’t base my vote on which has had the better runs or adaptions (well, not consciously, though I’m sure that had an affect), and certainly not who would win in a fight. Just which of the these two great characters I prefer.

Of course, if everyone thought like me, the final would have been between Ambush Bug and Jack of Hearts…

I would say the DC versus Marvel “debate” is more even on the internet.

In the real world, there is no contest. Marvel outdoes DC in just about everything, merchandising, video games, and movies (except for one notable exception, heh).

But that all has little bearing on this particular matchup. Batman is by far the most popular character in DC’s stable, and perhaps not surprisingly, the most “Marvel-ish.” His popularity is independent of the DC vs. Marvel debate in general.

I have no brand loyalty. I just tend to dislike Spider-dork.

I do like Ultimate Spidey pretty well. And often in the Avengers, too.

Yeah, Batman ties into the current obnoxious armchair-pop-psychology trend that pretty much frames all internet discourse, and is more kewl and mysterious to boot.

All Spider-man has is being a much better character in all ways. I’m surprised it was even this close.

First and most importantly: Many thanks, Brian, for thinking up and running this tourney. Twas the most internet fun I’ve had it a long while!

As for DC vs. Marvel … I voted for characters from both, though admittedly disproportionately DC. That’s largely because I most enjoy second- (and third-) string heroes (and some really cool villains, but hardly any of them even made the 64) — so once lower-tiered heroes like Nightcrawler and Animal Man and Oracle were gone, I gravitated strongly toward DC’s big guns: Supes, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash and GL. (Um, what’s the five-person version of “trinity”? The quintet, I guess, but that doesn’t sound nearly as majestic.) The only top characters at Marvel I really like are Spider-Man and Wolverine. (And Daredevil — or is he B-list?) Hulk, Cap, Thor, they all leave me “meh.”

It would have been really interesting to see who’d win in a Batman vs. Wolverine matchup among the general CBR reader.

Of course Batman won. You gave him TIME TO PREPARE.;)

DC vs. Marvel? I think the point by some here is that Superman and Batman have been much bigger in the general public’s mind on all of the 70 years they’ve been around. There are very few periods of time where you don’t see a Batman and Superman TV show, cartoon or movie in existence. Of course, recently Spider-Man has been closing the distance thanks to three big movies.

Btw — I’d say that Spidey is just as well known as Bats or Supes. Yeah, they’ve got a few decades and few more TV shows on him, but the Raimi movies were HUGE. In the end, it doesn’t really matter who wins the title, although we humans seem to be hard-wired to enjoy competition, whether athletic (NCAA, Super Bowl, etc.) or artistic (Oscars, etc). Batman “beating” Spider-Man doesn’t really mean that Spidey’s any less cool.

To put it all in perspective, I offer the news story from two weeks (or so) ago about the autistic boy in Thailand who freaked out on his first day at school and ended up climbing out onto a window ledge. A Thai fire-fighter was able to coax him back inside by dressing up as Spider-Man. (Apparently he keeps a Spidey suit hanging in his locker at work and uses it to enliven fire drills for school kids! School kids in Bangkok!) There’s a great pic of the kid hugging Spider-Man — Google-News it. It’ll make your day.

Go super-heroes!

I understand someone saying there is a pro-DC bias on the web. Sales figures show Marvel with about 50% of the market share and DC with about 30% right? But the amount written online (not the verdict rendered) seems to be more pro-DC than that, around 50/50 or even slanting towards DC. Of course, a lot of what is written is negative towards DC. I don’t really know what it would be based on. I’m generally prefer the DCU setting but in comics, the medium is always the message, who cares who the publisher is really?

Brian, thank you.

I am going to say “fuck the heck” as much as possible from now on.

“Yeah, they’ve got a few decades and few more TV shows on him, but the Raimi movies were HUGE.”

True, but as this past summer showed (and 1989, and 1978 if you were around for those), when Batman or Superman hit it big at the box office, it becomes part of the culture on a level that Spidey never really manages. It’s like a poll I remembered seeing at the time Incredibles came out: when asked to name their favourite Superhero, people chose Superman first, Spidey second, and Batman third.

Which was especially incredibly as that was in the aftermath of two Spidey movies (Mr. Incredible getting fifth on the poll is a good indication of the power of film), movie-less-for-18-years Superman still beat him, and last-movie-had-Arnie-in-it Batman was third. Do it again, post-Nolan, and Batman runs away and hides from both Superman and Spidey in the general public; while it’s closer amongst comics fans, Batman’s about as unimpeachable a character as you can get. He doesn’t even have a Clone Saga skeleton in his closet.

I have to disagree that Spidey’s 1st movie didn’t have close to as much impact as those DC movies. The movie broke all kinds of box-office records, the character’s profile was raised (both among kids and in the general American culture) and you couldn’t go two feet without seeing him for a good long time. Batman & Superman had more of a foothold in pop culture before their movies opened. Superman had the first big super-hero movie, and Batman had the second. Spider-Man’s first movie had a few more precursors, but it outshined all of them (until last summer, anyway).

By the by, I was looking at the predictions people made for the Final Four at the beginning of the tournament, and a bunch of people picked Wally to make it to the Final Four, well before Kelson was promoting the tourney out there. I found that quite interesting.

True, but as this past summer showed (and 1989, and 1978 if you were around for those), when Batman or Superman hit it big at the box office, it becomes part of the culture on a level that Spidey never really manages.

Not true at all. Spider-Man’s first movie was considered a much bigger event than either the first Superman movie or the first Batman movie, and that’s speaking as someone who was around for all 3 and saw all three at the theater on their respective opening days. Also, if Superman movies were automatically always such a big event, Batman Begins and Superman Returns would have fared much better. Both were outperformed by Fantastic Four, which was a crap movie. (Although I think later on Batman Begins may have ended up making more money in the long run).

I understand someone saying there is a pro-DC bias on the web. Sales figures show Marvel with about 50% of the market share and DC with about 30% right? But the amount written online (not the verdict rendered) seems to be more pro-DC than that, around 50/50 or even slanting towards DC.

THANK YOU. That was exactly my point. I’m glad someone gets it.

My point wasn’t that there is much more written about DC than Marvel on the Internet, my point is that compared to the sentiment in the general real-world population, which generally favors Marvel comics much more as far as sales and buzz goes, the fact that the Internet seems to have a 50/50 divide between Marvel and DC attention shows a pro-DC bias to me. It wasn’t until I started discussing comics on the Internet that I ever even saw so much DC discussion in comparison to Marvel discussion.

Batman has had consistently better movie & cartoons, “Batman & Robin” excepted. Spidey’s last movie was so-so and the cartoons have been extremely hit-and-miss.

I don’t know about that. Batman has had great cartoons, but he’s only had one really good movie and 5 increasingly awful ones.

Uh…

http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing/270.jpg

1) Beating Firelord is not quite as bad as beating Galactus. Admittedly it’s bad, but not anywhere near as bad, When Galactus came to town in John Byrne’s FF, Daredevil and Spidey didn’t even bother to join in the fight because they realized they were utterly useless. I always thought that was cool.

2) Most marvel fans, even Spider-Man fans I encounter, agree that it was a ridiculous feat. I’m as bad a Spider-Man fan as there is, but I can totally admit it was a story lapse to have that occur. One that I would never want or expect to be repeated. That’s the big difference. Batman fans on the other hand totally find nothing ridiculous about Batman regularly schooling Superman, Darkseid and others of that caliber with that ridiculous “prep time” premise. After Dark Knight returns and Morrison’s JLA, the prep-time concept has been embraced to ridiculous levels.

Sorry T.

But Superman the Motion Picture was a huge deal. HUGE!

Star Wars and Superman were the movies that pioneered the “movie magic” and special effects of today. Furthermore, Superman the Movie elevated the character from comic books to Americana. You weren’t seeing a superhero… you were seeing American Mythology! And so, to quote lingo… RESPECT!

And as far as the Spider-man/Tim Burton Batman Movie comparison, yeah right. Batman was soooo small… and yet I still run into people with Bat-signal key chains and Jack Nicholson T-shirts. Funny, I was there for all 3 movies too; but I don’t remember running into any Spidey-Skateboards or bumper stickers that read “My other car is the Spider-buggy!”

Anyways,

I don’t want to take anything away from Batman, but Spider-man winning a Superhero Tournament is like Charlie kicking the Football! It just doesn’t fit!

Besides, it’s bad enough that the Flash lost to Thing! (For God’s sake, the Thing is a Rock! It just sits there! How the hell could the Flash lose to a ROCK!?!?!?!? It’s stupid! I haven’t been this upset since Lobo lost to Wolverine OFF-PANEL!!!)

They are both great, but everyone should just accept that Wolverine is the GREATEST!

ps: I meant Charlie Brown! (…from Snoopy & the Peanuts. Not Charlie… you know… from “Charlie, up in the trees shooting at me!” …that would’ve been silly!)

Perhaps it was a bit predictable, but a fitting result nonetheless. Let’s do it again next year and see if Batsy can repeat…that is if ever gets back from the dark ages.

“Also, if Superman movies were automatically always such a big event, Batman Begins and Superman Returns would have fared much better. Both were outperformed by Fantastic Four, which was a crap movie. (Although I think later on Batman Begins may have ended up making more money in the long run).”

Fantastic Four made about $155 million total in the US (box office total through 2005, according to IMDB). Both Batman Begins and Superman Returns passed that total in their third weekend and went on to bring in an additional $45-50 million each. Yes, Fantastic Four had a slightly better opening weekend, and it was more profitable because it was cheaper to make, but it’s pretty clear which films performed better in terms of the number of people who went to see them, which is the relevant figure for the point you’re trying to make.

T, what you mean by bias seems to be very different from what I mean by it.

To me, bias implies falsity. In as much as if someone is biased, they say things that are false. But is there really opportunity for truth and falsehood in what characters are more or less LIKED? You might like one character, and I might like another one, but is either of us saying something WRONG? Unless there is some list in Heaven written in stone with every character in order of merit, I’m going to say that merit is something that can’t be called right or wrong.

To me, what you are talking about isn’t BIAS, it’s PREFERENCE. The internet has a preference for DC, the real world has a preference for Marvel and neither is wrong, merely DIFFERENT. Basically what you seem to be saying is that more people on the Internet voted for Batman because more people like Batman. I would agree with you there.

Unless you were saying that people voted for Batman merely because they like DC, but what is DC other than its characters. What’s to say that people don’t like DC for BATMAN, not the other way around?

“Batman fans on the other hand totally find nothing ridiculous about Batman regularly schooling Superman, Darkseid and others of that caliber with that ridiculous “prep time” premise.” SOME fans don’t find it ridiculous. I for one find it ridiculous that you would judge a character not on their storytelling potential, or what they say about the human condition, but about who they would beat in a FIGHT? What kind of literary relevance does that have? You may as well argue that Spiderman is better because red is a nicer colour than black.

Ted -

I have always had the same problem with these allegations of “DC bias on the Internet”… It suggests something underhanded and prejudiced; like the Internet is supposed to be fair and balanced in its consideration of all comics companies and yet it leans to one direction with devious intent.

The way I see it, for whatever reason, more DC fans choose to blog about their interest and discuss it on the Internet. Why more Marvel fans do not elect to do the same, I have no idea. That’s probably the question that should be considered.

Well, can’t say it was out of left field. In my head though, Spider Jerusalem made all of em shit their pants to a prolapse.

I have always had the same problem with these allegations of “DC bias on the Internet”… It suggests something underhanded and prejudiced; like the Internet is supposed to be fair and balanced in its consideration of all comics companies and yet it leans to one direction with devious intent.

I made no such claim. i don’t think it’s ill-intended, diabolical or evil at all. I just think it exists, but I don’t think it’s something of devious intent in the least.

Red Ricky, I never said Superman 1978 and Batman 1989 weren’t huge. They totally were. I just don’t agree with the idea that they were significantly huger than Spider-Man’s first movie. You have to remember, in most people’s lifetime they were exposed to plenty of live-action Superman and Batman in the form of TV repeats when both those movies came out. So while they were both big deals, they were not as big as Spider-Man’s debut, which was the first exposure to live-action Spidey for many of the people who saw it. The Nicholas Hammond live-action Spidey is still rare to find, and not very well-received even by nostalgia standards. I believe even if you adjust for inflation Spider-Man movies performance still is more impressive.

But anyway, I never claimed they weren’t huge. I just took issue with the assertion that they were significantly and undeniably a bigger deal on release than Spider-man was.

@T: “I made no such claim.”

While you probably didn’t claim anything immoral, I can’t see how you can claim bias without prejudice. If people only decide if they like something after they read it then surely it isn’t bias, just judgement. And surely you must know that bias has negative connotations in normal conversation, even if you didn’t intend them. I’m sure every time you talk about bias everyone gets up in arms, and I’m here to tell you it’s you fault.

Personal opinion: T is a dick.

Comic opinion: Without Batman (and to a lesser extent Superman, along with other heroes PREVIOUS to Lee/Ditko creating Spider-Man), there would not BE a Spider-Man. Stan Lee has basically admitted to such, that he wanted to take the Superman/Batman paradigm of “I shall battle evil” and humanize the concept. I love Spider-Man, always have, always will. I am NOT biased towards ANY company, but while I love Marvel and their stable of characters, DC just does it more for me, personally. I rather like the idea of the “larger than life” DC style of hero better than the Marvel style of anti-hero (even the best Marvel anti-heroes like Punisher, Spidey and others are derivative of Batman, who has to be, if nothing else, one of the EARLIEST examples of a hero who isnt such a nice guy all the time.)

[...] won the CSBG Character Tourney [...]