Comic Book Resources

I know I shouldn’t buy Ultimatum since it is just encouraging them, but it’s like watching a car crash. It’s hard to look away…

Dhnaka, let me help you:

DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’ DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’ DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T DON’T

This is likely the last “Ultimate” book that I will buy. I do not believe that Ultimate Spider-man needed a “kick in the pants” or a restart. It has been a consistently good book throughout its run and I was content with the way it was going. I’m not terribly interested in reading an Ultimate Spider-man book set in a world where “everything has changed.” I dropped Invincible because “everything changed” and I currently plan to drop Ultimate Spider-man. I realize that sales have been steadily declining, but I don’t think “changing everything” is really the best way to reinvigorate a book. Oh well, I guess I can pick up something else.

Amen. I’ll just add it to the list of sins of Ultimatum.

Ah, Quesada and Bendis have ruined the entire Marvel line for a quick buck. What’s one more title trashed to hell? But they did me a favor by perverting all the heroes I grew up with. They helped me break my lifelong addiction to Marvel comics — now I can save for a downpayment on a house instead.

” This is likely the last “Ultimate” book that I will buy. I do not believe that Ultimate Spider-man needed a “kick in the pants” or a restart. It has been a consistently good book throughout its run and I was content with the way it was going. I’m not terribly interested in reading an Ultimate Spider-man book set in a world where “everything has changed.” I dropped Invincible because “everything changed” and I currently plan to drop Ultimate Spider-man. I realize that sales have been steadily declining, but I don’t think “changing everything” is really the best way to reinvigorate a book. Oh well, I guess I can pick up something else. ”

It didn’t need a radical overhaul, true, but to be fair, Ultimate Spider-Man had definitely shown a gradual decrease in quality since its inception. The stories began to repeat themselves; massive SHIELD conspiracy, completely insane Super-Soldier monsters ( Goblins, Symbiotes, Spider-Clones and Werewolf MJ, Doc Ock and Electro ), MJ and Peter breaking up with each other then eventually reconciling, and Peter acting like an idiot. The others I could have accepted, but the last one was the most egregious, because almost all of Peter’s victories were due to brute strength or blind luck, not because he actually used his head ( except during the earlier books ).

A relaunch might help if it’s a point where the stories go back to being about the young characters, as opposed to the conspiracy subplots. Granted, being tied into Ultimatum was the least auspicious start the new USM could have had, but Bendis is still writing USM, not Loeb.

Well, I can testify that I have NOT bought or read one single issue of the ULTIMATUM.

However, my last Ultimate series was Ultimate Wolverine vs. Ultimate Hulk, which wasn’t too bad.

Will probably give the new re-boot line a pass.

It looks like Spider-Woman vs. Doomsday.

The idea of Bendis doing a “silent” comic and letting Immonen take the reins certainly does sound good, but my goodness, what awful subject material. It’s like getting the Beatles back together and making them play ABBA.

This is disheartening to hear. USM is the last Marvel book that I get.* I purchase the hardcover editions as they’re released so the last USM I’ve read was Immonen’s first arcs. I haven’t noticed any appreciable decrease in quality since the early days of the series (ups and downs from arc to arc sure, but for every down it always came back to up). I dabbled in the rest of the Ultimateverse when it launched, but USM was the only book that could keep my interest and despite occasional annoying references to things happening in other books.

But he quote-unquote dies in another book? That’s even worse than the ending to Starman, in which the legacy was passed to someone who had never once appeared in the book before and yet we’re assured that there’s some sort of history there. I never did find out what was up with that.

*note: though I am hoping to get the Hardcover omnibus of Brubaker’s Daredevil, since the last I saw him, Bendis has sent him to prison awaiting trial and apparently Brubaker’s work is worthwhile?

I wonder how long Bendis had that silent comic planned. Maybe he didn’t want anything to do with Ultimatum killing his character so he did this out of protest.

Hey, this would be a great topic for a future column: bad finishes to great runs. I’d like to nominate Spider-Man 2099 for one. Not sure if the “bad finish” would have been Peter David’s wrap up (not bad, but very rushed–you could tell he was trying to resolve as many plot points as possible with a short-notice last issue) or the two fill-in issues which followed.

The Dane,

Brubaker’s Daredevil is at least on par with Bendis’. Maybe better? Stories are slightly less decompressed.

For anyone upset with #133 being the last issue of USM and not thinking the issue was an appropriate send-off, I say this: Just wait until USM v.2 #67, which should revert the numbering back to #200 and then you don’t have to consider this issue the finale.

For anyone upset with #133 being the last issue of USM and not thinking the issue was an appropriate send-off, I say this: Just wait until USM v.2 #67, which should revert the numbering back to #200 and then you don’t have to consider this issue the finale.

Don’t you mean USM v2 #51 which will revert the numbering back to #600? What’s that? You say there won’t have been 600 issues of USM by then? Uh, I’m not seeing your point.

And that’s not even mentioning that they charged an extra dollar for the damn thing. I’ve been reading USM in trades since somewhere around issue 60 (and monthly from the beginning before that) and there just seems to be something so disappointing about one of Marvel’s best-dialogued books ending with a silent issue. I mean, I’m all for storytelling experiments and I realize the 2 Requiem issues are still coming, but as this article notes, this doesn’t feel like the way this great series should end.

You mean Ultimatum is doing more to expose Jeph Loeb as a terrible writer?

You don’t say.

I’m not planning on buying the next volume of Ultimate Spider-Man. Or Ultimate Comics Spider-Man. Or whatever they’re going to call it. Ultimate Spider-Man was my favorite superhero title for the length of its run. The way it’s ended is just heartbreaking. Boo Marvel. You suck.

” Ah, Quesada and Bendis have ruined the entire Marvel line for a quick buck. What’s one more title trashed to hell? But they did me a favor by perverting all the heroes I grew up with. They helped me break my lifelong addiction to Marvel comics — now I can save for a downpayment on a house instead. ”

But Bendis was one of the architects of the Ultimate Marvel line, and the writer for Ultimate Spider-Man during its entire run ( and he’s starting its next run as well ). Are you unhappy that Ultimate Spider-Man is being changed, or did you just want another opportunity to bash Marvel?

Marvel’s made it really easy to dump USM, which is too bad, because Immonen had revitalized the title.

I haven’t read Ultimatum, and I haven’t read Ultimate Spider-Man regularly for years. I just want to step in and ask:

What happened to Jeph Loeb?

I remember a couple of years ago, he was a golden child, held in regard so high he was just below Bendis or Johns in most people’s minds. The Long Halloween, the Marvel “color” series…

As far as I can tell, his popularity among us hardcore fans pivots on one moment:

The day his son died.

The day after that happened, the fans abandoned him and the wolves started circling. So, here’s my question: Did Jeph Loeb just lose the passion he had for the medium, or has he always been this bad and we’re just now noticing it, or has he been slotted for a bunch of assignments where he’s hamstrung by editorial mandates, or what?

Now, I really don’t care about Jeph Loeb one way or another. I think the last thing I read from him was the first arc of Superman/Batman (if he was the writer for that). I’m just curious where all the hatred for him comes from, when he was so popular just a few years ago.

As far as I can tell, his popularity among us hardcore fans pivots on one moment:

The day after that happened, the fans abandoned him and the wolves started circling. So, here’s my question: Did Jeph Loeb just lose the passion he had for the medium, or has he always been this bad and we’re just now noticing it, or has he been slotted for a bunch of assignments where he’s hamstrung by editorial mandates, or what?

I can’t speak for everyone, but as a often-vocal Loeb disliker, I completely disagree. I don’t think Loeb was EVER a good writer, despite the fact that I used to buy his work because of the art. While I wouldn’t want to speculate if his son’s death played a part in that (personally, I think that would be bad taste), I think it more has to do with the fact that fans have just moved toward other writers who can write continuity porn/big events better than he can.

I mean, I don’t think Infinite Crisis or Final Crisis were THAT good, but they are certainly better than anything I’ve heard about Ultimatum.

Did Jeph Loeb just lose the passion he had for the medium, or has he always been this bad and we’re just now noticing it,

1. I don’t think him writing poorly is an indicator that he’s lost his passion for the job. Someone can be passionate about something and bad at it.

2. A lot of people noticed it a lot earlier than you think.

I think it is entirely unfair, and frakking rude, to use that death in any way, shape, or form when discussing Jeph Loeb’s work.

You ought to be ashamed.

@Adam – Yeah, Spider-Man 2099 really did rush toward its collapse. That was really sad for me as that David/Leonardi books was one of my favourites (next to The Nth Man, which also was forced to end prematurely).

@Huh? – Thanks for the tip. I’d heard that Brubaker’s Daredevil was good and it’s always nice to get some confirmation.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that the quality of his work has diminished in any way. I haven’t read enough of it to make that kind of judgment. I’m just saying that the OPINION of his work has. From everything I can tell:

Jeph Loeb Before = Awesome
Jeph Loeb After = Nasty crap.

Again, I haven’t read Ultimatum or anything written by Loeb in years. I’m just wondering why it appears public opinion changed after that particular moment.

Well, Wesley, the thing is you have your timing wrong. The first serious strains of discontent with Loeb I recall seeing came out of Our Worlds At War, which was something like 5 years before Sam Loeb died. So your argument is based on a false premise.

I think it’s really embarrassing to use terms like “frakking”.

Fair enough, Michael. I guess I forgot he had been behind that event. I thought it was whomever was editing the Superman titles at the time (Cavalieri, maybe?). I remember Our Worlds At War, and that was an almost unreadable mess.

I apologize for an insinuation I made about Loeb’s writing deteriorating after his son’s death or that the fans turned against him at that time.

It’s like getting the Beatles back together and making them play ABBA.

The Beatles are famous for their original stuff though, not their re-workings of old classics.

I apologize for an insinuation I made about Loeb’s writing deteriorating after his son’s death or that the fans turned against him at that time.

Right… I mean, while I don’t think you comment about his work after his son’s death was in the best taste (But you are forgiven!), the truth is there has been growing Loeb discontent for a while before that. In fact, I remember people saying as far back as Dark Victory — “wait… isn’t he just repeating himself?”

I will say, however, in your defense, that I first noticed that the Internet Loeb dislike had really grown to very noticeable levels at the end of “Hush” and even more so during his Superman/Batman run, though I’d place it around the time President Lex Luthor “went crazy” and was taking venom/kryptonite/steroids and not around his son’s unfortunate death.

I think Loeb’s issues arise whenever he has to deal with continuity. When he does things like The Long Halloween, The Marvel Color books, and even the beginning of Superman, Batman, the stuff was usually average or sometimes above average.
However, the minute he gets involved in continuity (Ultimate anything, Hulk, etc…) everything explodes. He sacrifices quality characters for an overarching mediocre plot.
Even Hush had it’s problems (how many villians can I jam into one Batman story?)
But the good ones he did have Tim Sale usually, so maybe that’s the ticket…

Ultimate Spiderman Vol. 6: Venom got me into comics.
It was a few years ago, I was 15 or so, and I caught a glimpse of this at my local library. I had never really read many comics before, and hadn’t even realized the library carried them before that day. I had a vague idea of who Venom was from the old TV show, and decided to pick it up on a whim.
I was floored by the comic. It felt real, funny, and enjoyable; I could sympathize with Peter Parker like no character I’d ever read in a book. The art was kinetic, and told the story without getting too confusing. I must have read that thing two or three times the day I got it. I immediately went back to the library to request every comic I could find with ‘Ultimate’ in the title. I liked them all, but I loved Ultimate Spidey. From re-imaginings of villians I recognized to those I’d never heard of, from the intricacies of Peter’s home life to his circle of school friends, I loved it all. Those books quite possibly changed my life.
It’s been a few years now, and I’ve collected a LOT of trades. I’ve got almost every Ultimate book out there, plenty of mainstream Marvel, DC, and all the rest, but Ultimate Spider-man will always hold a special place in my heart. I really can’t believe it’s ending, and hope that the new start will maintain the quality of the title that came before. Goodbye, Ultimate Spider-Man. It’s been a great ride.
P.S. By the way, If Brian Bendis ever reads these boards, which I doubt, I just want to say thank you to him for all the hard work he’s put into this title. I may not love everything else you do, but this is just perfect

I had some thoughts about leaving USM when it felt like stories were just circling the drain – the Deadpool and Morbius year – but damned if Bendis didn’t rope me back in with his version of the Clone Saga, which was relevant to the over-arching motifs of the book AND much, much shorter than the original.

Then it sorta started losing me again by getting back to the Venom story that was sequeled in the USM video game…and then came Ultimatum.

I’m okay with USM wrapping up – it just beats out Hellblazer as the longest run of a title I’ve ever bought, and all things must end – but yes, this is a crappy way to finish it off. I’ll grab the next volume as it’s collected, to check in (I’ve got a kick-ass library system that seems fond of buying the Ultimate line), but I would’ve rather left on a high note – like, the end of Bendis’s run on his own terms, following his own plots.

Also, @The Dane: Brubaker’s ‘Daredevil’ had a great first year, wrapping up Bendis’s plot-threads, but once Brubaker “reset” everything back to a status-quo he could play with on his own terms, I realized I simply wasn’t as interested – he made a surprising mistake of finishing off his first year without giving a good reason – a new hook, I guess I mean – to continue reading; the story just felt perfectly concluded, to me.

But that first year, at least, is still recommended as an example of fine storytelling craftsmanship.

I don’t understand editorials decision on this at all. Why end Spider-Man’s story in another title? Not only that, but a title NOT written by Bendis. He’s been the writer since issue one and was telling the story of his life, but not involved in his death?

Imagine going to see Spider-Man 4 in theatres. 20 mins into the movie you realize Spider-Man hasn’t shown up yet. After saying “what’s going on here?” the person sitting next to you turns and says “oh didn’t you know, they killed Spider-Man in the direct to dvd release of Elektra 2″.

Killing “Ultimate” Spider-Man in something like Ultimatum completely ruins any emotion the reader should have felt. Awful.

Oh, like he’s really dead.

@Jeff Holland – Excellent. I notice the first Brubaker collection will contain issues 82–105, so that’s clearly more than his first year at the book, but yours and others recommendations have me really excited. And who knows, maybe I’ll get into whatever it is he tries to do after his return to status quo. Thanks for your recommendation.

Wow, I actually had no idea that Ultimatum is where Peter was supposed to have “died.” I haven’t been reading it nor do I care to, but that angers me a little to know I was supposed to buy a mini-series to get the death of the main character of the only Ultimate series I’ve ever bought. Ugh. I’ll be forgiving of Bendis and say he was forced to do what he had to do because of editorial mandates…

I’m anxious to see what Bendis does with the new series, but that $3.99 price tag may send me back to waiting for the trades…

“I think it is entirely unfair, and frakking rude, to use that death in any way, shape, or form when discussing Jeph Loeb’s work.

You ought to be ashamed.”

Is it crude if it’s true? It kind of fits, actually-Loeb’s comics have been steadily retreating into a more and more outlandish fantasy land of muscles and tits and nonsense. Maybe this is what he wants to see.

It’s not crude at all to bring up how a writer’s personal life affects his work.

It’s not crude at all to bring up how a writer’s personal life affects his work.

It’s not crude – it’s extremely crude.

Their personal life is their personal life, and it’s none of our business.

I don’t see it. I think as long as you treat it as a form of analysis there’s nothing wrong with it. If you’re just like “Loeb’s writing sucks because his son died”, then yeah, that’s a horrible thing to say. But if you’re just pointing out shifts in tone and theme, what’s the problem? Jack Kirby fought in WWII. Are we not allowed to bring up how that impacted a lot of the themes in his 4th World Saga? Or can we not talk about this stuff until after they’re dead?

If you’re just like “Loeb’s writing sucks because his son died”, then yeah, that’s a horrible thing to say. But if you’re just pointing out shifts in tone and theme, what’s the problem?

It’s the same thing! Either way, you’re bringing a guy’s personal tragedy into a discussion of his work, and that’s extremely crude.

If you want to do it, go ahead, but it’s extremely crude.

How can a writer and his work be properly analyzed if you don’t look at what goes on both on AND off the page?

Look: My father died of an overdose when I was 13. A lot of my stories, I’ve noticed, have either characters with strange interactions with their father figures or strange father figures, period. Now, my father dying while I was at a young, formative age was a personal tragedy. If somebody wants to take that and see how that impacts my writing, that’s fine. I encourage it! Any layers of meaning you can take out of my work is a positive thing. As long as you’re not a dick about it-i.e “His work sucks because he didn’t have his junkie dad looking after him”-there’s absolutely no problem with taking everything about, or surrounding, the story and taking it into context.

Once more, what somebody may or may not be going through can shed an imformative light on their work, and as long as you’re respectful towards it I see no problem with it.

Also: *informative*

IMO no-one’s overstepped the bounds in this conversation.

That said, it’s completely inaccurate. People were being very rude about Loeb’s work way before his son died. There lots of people who always hated Hush, Batman/Superman and (admittedly to a lesser degree) his Batman work with Tim Sale.

If anything the criticism seemed to ease off for a short while when his son died.

Above someone pointed out that Loeb has done better work when he’s not doing a continuity related book. I can’t agree more.

Believe it or not, I became a fan after Challengers of the Unknown, and followed him through the Long Halloween, Dark Victory, his Superman mini, the Color series…and enjoyed them all.

But I can’t think of a single ‘normal’ book that was any good to me. They’ve all suffered from well below average writing and plotting.

It seems that when he’s in his own sandbox, he can do some tremendous work–but the moment he steps outside, the talent leaves.

I also think it’s not crude, though it is inaccurate.

If I say “musician X’s music has really improved since he overcame his heroin addiction” or “artist Y’s paintings have become a lot darker since his wife died”, these are all valid analyses, provided they are accurate or can be argued to be accurate. An artist’s work is affected by their personal life. If you work in a field where your work is open to public criticism, then you’re open to speculation about how your personal life affects your work.

The worsening sentiment towards Loeb does not coincide with his son’s passing, so the statement here is not valid, but I wouldn’t say it’s crude.

Tangential to the main discussion, but a lot a literary theorists would argue that you specifically shouldn’t consider autobiographical details of the author, but rather allow the work to stand on its own.

If there were specific thematic details in Loeb’s work which were clearly related to his son’s death, then perhaps it necessary to discuss it. But to say that the quality just maybe generally changed because of it is probably bad form.

If the connection was more evident, I would have no difficulty whatsoever with people mentioning it; however, it seems to me to be little more than a very broad timing coincidence.

What IS apparent, however, is that Loeb, who used to be able to write, has fallen off the cliff spectacularly in recent years, and now produces little if anything that is even worthy of publication, let alone praise.

If there were specific thematic details in Loeb’s work which were clearly related to his son’s death, then perhaps it necessary to discuss it. But to say that the quality just maybe generally changed because of it is probably bad form.

Fair enough, Ted (and Paul, too, I guess).

I would agree with that version of the position.

The important lesson here: NEVER HIRE JEPH LOEB and NEVER GIVE JEPH LOEB A BOOK THAT IMPACTS OTHER TITLES (he makes out writers worse). Same goes for Brad Meltzer.

What IS apparent, however, is that Loeb, who used to be able to write,

This urban legend about a Jeph Loeb who used to be able to write must die, because I’ve never seen a Jeph Loeb story rise above mediocre. No such thing as a good Jeph Loeb book.

I remember a couple of years ago, he was a golden child, held in regard so high he was just below Bendis or Johns in most people’s minds. The Long Halloween, the Marvel “color” series…

In people’s minds, yes, he was right below them. In actual quality, he was always right below Chuck Austen though. What “happened” is the public perception of him finally caught up to his actual quality level. His son had nothing to do with that. The weaknesses in his new work were there since Long Halloween, he just has less gimmicks and “homages” to disguise them with.

It’s like getting the Beatles back together and making them play ABBA.

First, please don’t insult Abba by comparing them to modern Loeb. They may not be high art, but they were very good at what they did, which was write and perform lush, cotton candy, fun fluff infectiously catchy pop music. They had great harmonies and melodies and were prolific and hard working and talented. Sure it’s cheesy but it was never meant to be anything but. Modern Loeb is dreck.

Second, PLEASE don’t compare classic Loeb to the Beatles, as classic Loeb is just as crappy a writer as modern Loeb, just with more window dressing.

A better analogy would be it’s like Milli Vanilli (someone people once thought was good but actually always sucked) to reunite to cover Vanilla Ice (someone people always knew sucked).

Oh My God… Challengers of the Unknown! I forgot Loeb wrote something that wouldn’t bring me shame to have on my bookcase.

Above someone pointed out that Loeb has done better work when he’s not doing a continuity related book. I can’t agree more.

Believe it or not, I became a fan after Challengers of the Unknown, and followed him through the Long Halloween, Dark Victory, his Superman mini, the Color series…and enjoyed them all.

I’m happy that you enjoyed them, but the Long Halloween, Dark Victory, and Superman For All Seasons ARE continuity related — they just tie into both heroes’ “early years.” And a majority of each work is re-hashed story points done by other writers (particularly Superman — compare it to Byrne’s Man of Steel and you’ll realize how many story beats come directly from Byrne). Compare his Marvel “color” series to the original comics — they are each stories that were done much better by Lee/Kirby/whoever else decades ago, rewritten with copious narration to expand it to more issues so Sale can draw pretty pictures.

T. once pointed out to me that Loeb is truly the industry leader in what Cronin called “Karaoke Comics” — hitting all the well-known “greatest hits” moments over again to provoke an easy reaction.

The issue isn’t so much continuity, in my opinion, it’s that Loeb is at best a writer who puts a new spin on older stories (whether that “new spin” is any good is up to you). I.E. People liked when The Long Halloween was filled with Godfather, Goodfellas, and Batman:Year One references, for whatever reason. Heck, his run on the Superman title was nearly entirely based on restoring Silver Age Krypton, Bizarro, and Krypto!!

But when Loeb is most exposed when he’s told to write an original story, because then we get Superman/Batman and Ultimatum. And when he doesn’t know what to do, he ALWAYS kills somebody off to make the story “important” — hence why Ultimatum is filled with deaths, because poor comic book writers think death = relevance.

Above comment was by me, but I didn’t sign. DANG IT!

I think the thing with Loeb and public perception of him is that he hasn’t done anything with Tim Sale lately. Sale’s artwork always covered up/distracted from his poorer writing efforts. I can’t think of anything Loeb wrote and that I enjoyed that didn’t involve Sale.

As far as his son’s sad passing, I remember the opposite of the above poster. I remember him getting MORE support and sympathy afterwards not less. The Sam Loeb tribute issue of Superman/Batman is testament to that. Any opinions of his work were put aside out of respect and sympathy. And rightly so. I have only really noticed widespread criticism for his work recently, such as his work on Hulk, Ultimates 3 and Ultimatum and on TV with Heroes…

I agree, ABBA is one of the most underrated acts in music history.

I liked Loeb with Sale, I liked Loeb with Ed McGuinness, I don’t like things he’s done otherwise.

I’m hating Ultimatum, not just for screwing up and trashing the Ultimate universe — probably an editorial dictate, not just for excessively shocking (and generally pointless) deaths and destruction that seem to be there solely for, well, shock value, not for bringing the mostly sunny-seeming Ultimate universe down to the dire sturm of the “regular” Marvel Universe, and not just for muddy and ugly artwork. I’m hatin it because it’s a crossover event that makes the regular books become anticlimactic, because the important events have to happen over in the crossover book, instead of the regular title.

I have all of Ultimate Spider-Man in hardcovers. I hope that the “ultimatum” tiein issues don’t appear in one.

“I agree, ABBA is one of the most underrated acts in music history.”

You can’t call someone ‘underrated’ when they sold so many records, are still played on the radio, and are the musical basis for a best-selling musical that was made into a best-selling movie.

They’re clearly well-liked.

“Fair enough, Ted (and Paul, too, I guess).

I would agree with that version of the position.”

Dude! That’s what I’ve been saying this WHOLE TIME!

I don’t understand why such a bias towards Jeph Loeb being a bad writer. I have been into comics for 30 of my 33 years of life, and I can see bad writing and good writing from him and every writer out there. I think a lot has to do with a fan’s tastes.

Jeph Loeb’s writing, along with the artwork of respective artists, has me reading Hulk when I haven’t touched it in years, and he helped me enjoy picking up Superman/ Batman when it first came out, and I have enjoyed other work from him as well. I can’t say I enjoyed Our Worlds At War, and I wasn’t interested in Ultimatum, but the latter is more because I can’t afford to pick up more titles.

Of course, I’m also biased. Among my favorite heroes is Supergirl, and at nine I lost Kara Zor-El to which he helped reestablish the character, so I’m going to love those stories even if someone could argue that they weren’t that amazing.

With Bendis, he hasn’t always written amazing stories either. I must admit that although he helped bring back Spider-Woman, he also lied to die-hard fans by not actually having her back until recently. After spending money for years on a character that wasn’t actually *the* character I was upset to say the least but I will admit that it did make a good storyline, and he currently is about the only one to handle Jessica, so I continue to read his stuff. The last issue of Secret Invasion seemed rushed at best, and seemed simply another vehicle to start something “bigger.” However, I can admit that the over all storyline was well done, but it doesn’t mean he’s infalliable.

The same with every writer out there. Each will make a bomb at some point. Yes, some more than others perhaps, but I think it really is wrong to single out Loeb. If he was soo bad as many commenters state here, he wouldn’t continue to be employed..

Last October, a friend of mine spoke with Kurt Busiek who told him that he doesn’t always like to write big ongoing story arcs and/ or he may not agree with how a story may be unfolding and so forth but he is told what to write, and so he does. This should also be considered when putting down a writer. Loeb may not have wanted to have Peter Parker “die” in his book, but he could simply have been told that Ultimate Crisis, I mean Ultimatum, needed to attract a wider audience so please have Spider-Man in it, and make it “shocking.”

Perhaps Bendis didn’t like how things were, but I can’t imagine that if he was sooo distressed by it he wouldn’t have any say in the situation. He’s Marvel’s biggest gun and if he said he was pissed off because it was all Jeph Loeb’s fault his book would suffer, I can’t see that Marvel wouldn’t listen.

Ultimately, pun not intended … ok, maybe a little, I just think that it’s unfair to single Jeph Loeb out as a terrible writer. It can be argued, yes, that he may not be as good as some but so can Shakespeare, so I really think that people should show a little more respect to Mr. Loeb (at the very least not be so quick to blame him for the “last” issue of Ultimate Spider-Man not being up to par!)

Marvel has just shot itself in the foot over the past few years, especially in regards to its most famous character. People disliked Amazing because it wasn’t going anywhere with it’s magic stories, so there’s Ultimate as an alternative. Some people who liked Amazing and the marriage stayed with that book, then they just destroyed it with false promises and gimmicks and then got rid of the marriage making it the worst book out there. Why not just get rid of the marriage two years ago and be done with it? WHy not hire all those writers instead of doing magical resurrections, now the writers are screwed, this character is pathetic, but again.. there was Ultimate Spider-man. People liked this book and I could see why. Now, it’s over. They’ve screwed themselves ONCE AGAIN!

How do the editor meetings go? Somethin like this: ‘It’s going great! Let’s ruin it!’

Dude! That’s what I’ve been saying this WHOLE TIME!

You said the statement was not bad, Ted (and Paul, to a certain extent) said it was.

Yebbut-

Oh, I give up.

I think the time frames play a part in Loebs love and hate, but people are looking at the wrong event for the difference – Loebs earlier work, when he was a favourite, was mostly done in the 90′s, and compared to a lot of stuff coming out then, particularly from Marvel and DC, probably seemed like gold.
I believe Brian has written about ’90′s Good’ before – it’s not that good, but sure seemed it at the time.
Long Halloween came out soon after the market went belly up, and that’s when his name was made.

Also, the internet might have helped burst his bubble a little – publications like Wizard, and even articles on the CBR main page always seem quite flattering to him, it’s fans and actual critics where his work gets called out.

You can’t call someone ‘underrated’ when they sold so many records, are still played on the radio, and are the musical basis for a best-selling musical that was made into a best-selling movie.

They’re clearly well-liked.

Just watch the rather embarrassing footage of Abba in Australia.
You’d think they were the Beatles.

So yeah, they are rated well by many people.
Doesn’t mean it isn’t horrible shit.

With Bendis, he hasn’t always written amazing stories either. I must admit that although he helped bring back Spider-Woman, he also lied to die-hard fans by not actually having her back until recently. After spending money for years on a character that wasn’t actually *the* character I was upset to say the least but I will admit that it did make a good storyline, and he currently is about the only one to handle Jessica, so I continue to read his stuff. The last issue of Secret Invasion seemed rushed at best, and seemed simply another vehicle to start something “bigger.” However, I can admit that the over all storyline was well done, but it doesn’t mean he’s infalliable.

You know his best stuff was before he was ever at Marvel right?

Also, it is utterly, utterly bizarre to see you say you’re upset that you ‘wasted’ money on a story – that you apparently enjoyed – about a character because it wasn’t THE character, but someone pretending to be them.
Just bizarre.

I just think that it’s unfair to single Jeph Loeb out as a terrible writer.

We’re not!
There are plenty of terrible writers, he is just one of them.

It can be argued, yes, that he may not be as good as some but so can Shakespeare, so I really think that people should show a little more respect to Mr. Loeb

You can argue Shakespeare isn’t as good as some – I mean it’s been four hundred years since he last released anything and you know his name, so he had a slight impact – argue it all you want, I’d love to read that argument… BUT, that doesn’t mean Loeb deserves respect.
You can argue that Bush wasn’t as bad as Nero, but that doesn’t make him good.

I’ve mostly been underwhelmed with Loeb’s work, though I really liked his Challengers of the Unknown mini and his Superman work with Mike McKone and Ed McGuiness.

The first I really remember him tanking was on Hush.

Most people hated Our Worlds At War but I really liked it.

I haven’t kept up with the Ultimate line, but I’m going to catch up and keep reading it. Bigger things happen there and I kind of think of it as an Earth-2 Marvel….kinda.

Just one more to make sure we have 69 comments.

All this griping about Loeb and his works that suck, and not one mention of his Wolverine arc. How could anybody forget about it?

No, really, how could they? I’ve tried all options, and I really would like to.

“The idea of Bendis doing a “silent” comic and letting Immonen take the reins certainly does sound good, but my goodness, what awful subject material. It’s like getting the Beatles back together and making them play ABBA.”

Is drum’n'bass still a popular genre?

I just can’t read stuff from the Ultimate work shop. The stuff jus doesn’t gravitate to me like H head Hawkeye or even Ronin and not that nerd wit the shades. Black Nick Fury was the worst shit I ever seen..hulk on canseco juice wit the bean head and the crackhead eyes and MOJO like wtf the shit seemed like some money stunt to get more money out of us…Bendis is horrible @ times I agree but I haven’t read much of Loeb and I’ve been real hesitate to pick up that Hulk wit the defenders and rulk and all that. Ide rather read Dan slotts Hulk in mighty avengers right now.

Ultimate Marvel..make like Wizard Magazine and go 6 feet UNDER

R.I.P. Ultimate SPIDEY(GARBANZO)

I have to say that I am one of those who doesn’t see why it’s crude to bring an artist’s personal life into a look at their work especially if said artist has been open about said events.

Cormac McCarthy’s feelings about becoming a father late in life gave us The Road and that fact is certainly informative of the work. James Ellroy’s discovery of his mother’s body as a boy and the fact the murder was never solved informs much of his work especially The Black Dahlia. Joss Whedon’s relationship with his father is certainly a touchstone of why Buffy, Willow, Xander, Giles, Cordelia, Anya, Angel, Tara, and Wesley all have some major paternal issues.

Etc. and so forth.

Right on, brotha! I about gagged when I saw $3.99 for a regular comic! Then it was a regular comic with no words, great! Then it was an ending that I could only SUPPOSE was an ending (yeah, I don’t keep up with comics news. I prefer to just read the stories as they come. Imagine my surprise…), and oh yeah the lead is dead. I dumped a crapload of comics when my son was born 3 years ago. Glad I did that. I can’t even IMAGINE adding an extra buck a comic each week. I don’t even know if I’ll read the new Ultimate line if it means spending, what, $12 for 4 comics (I did research today!) instead of $9. Trust me, I can use that extra $3. It doesn’t need to be spent on comics that, apparently, will just end up disappointing me anyway… maybe even in nearly a decade, just like now.

I have to say that I am one of those who doesn’t see why it’s crude to bring an artist’s personal life into a look at their work especially if said artist has been open about said events.

Yeah, but with no proof to back up the claim, and no thematic relationship, it’s quite weak.

“So yeah, they are rated well by many people.
Doesn’t mean it isn’t horrible shit.”

I agree 100%, of course.

“If he was soo bad as many commenters state here, he wouldn’t continue to be employed.”

That’s nowhere near true. Many bad writers are also popular writers, and many unpopular bad writers still manage to sell a lot of books.

I too take issue with people speculating about reasons for his decline in quality. Not for any moral or ethical reasons, but because it implies he once actually did good work. That offends me.