Comic Book Resources

It wasn’t Rogers – it was Loki?

I think maybe JMS should’ve made a couple calls into the home offices before writing that scene.

loved that issue and that conversation. Thought it was cool of JMS to do that.

I really liked that scene when I first read it.

And hey, for all the delays that Thor has had, it’s kind of nice to think that they were ahead of schedule on something!

Yeah, it just means that you can place Thor #11 at the same time as Cap #600. Most of the time you’ve got to wait a full year before placing specific issues in a timeline against other comics. At least, that’s MY belief.

I just did not like this scene. It crosses the line between tribute and fanservice.

I’ve always enjoyed the respect some of the best writers have imbued on Cap from Thor- I think my favorite was in “The Avengers” during Kang’s takeover when some immensely powerful being actually “killed” Cap by transmutiing him into a radioactive skeleton and Thor became so enraged at seeing his friend brought down he basically took the bad guy apart in like, two panels- it was right after Alan Davis left the drawing chores to another lesser artist, but for a few panels, the guy nailed a thunder god seething with outrage and fury. Thor afterwards had problems reconciling his immortality with the fact that he would outlive many of his closest friends. Its moments like that I treasure in the books- when there is a bit of poignant concentration on how close these characters have become over the years.

My favorite would be during Secret Wars when Thor shut Wolverine’s big mouth by stating emphatically that he’d follow Cap’s leadership.

It’s a little strange how Wolverine’s characterization has changed since the early 80′s. There’s no way he’d call Cap “the least of us” today.

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“I think maybe JMS should’ve made a couple calls into the home offices before writing that scene.”

I would say it’s more his editor’s job to watch out for that sort of thing.

Didn’t Thor feel the need to ask Cap to take off that stupid robe?

“C’mon, Steve, I know you’re dead, but I’m the freakin’ God of Thunder. You’re not fooling anyone with that thing.”

Since this issue WAS published back in October, was this week’s issue of Captain America even planned out in firm details surrounding the one-year anniversary of Steve’s death?

JMS has editors?!

I kid, I kid. But I’m actually curious – if Brubaker’s had an idea of how he was bringing Steve back pretty much from the start (and given how tightly constructed his run has been, I’d accept this as true), then who’s responsible for making sure none of the other writers do…well, I guess “Have a chat with Cap’s ghost” is exactly the kind of thing that should probably be avoided?

Should the editors be more transparent with each other, should the writer make it clearer, or should the other writers simply know to steer clear?

Then again, who would write a “Cap’s ghost” scene if they knew he was coming back, but didn’t know how? That just seems a bit… I dunno. Seems like something, though.

Thanks for bringing this to the internet’s attention. I thought I was the only one who remembered. I’m a bit afraid that it’s not going to make any sense when Cap 601 hits stands, and that’s been coloring my opinion of 600.

How have other writers handled ghosts of people who later came back?

Three examples I’m remembering:
1) In Kevin Smith’s Green Arrow series, the Spectre takes GA to heaven, where he meets Barry Allen and sees Jason Todd.
2) There was a Deadman miniseries in the early 2000s which had Deadman escort Jason and Barry’s souls to heaven (along with Superman, but we know that he was dead and his soul WAS wandering).
3) Marvel has had multiple Legions of the Unliving with dead heroes who later turn up alive. One Avengers Annual had a team which I’m pretty sure included Bucky and the Green Goblin (implied to be Norman, but I’m not sure he was unmasked). Busiek’s run had another such team which included Mockingbird, who recently turned up alive in Secret Invasion.

I believe the “Ronin and Mockingbird” miniseries was supposed to reference the Legion of the Unliving thing, but have any of the other ghosts ever been addressed? In DC’s case, is it all “Superboy Punch”–yes, they were dead, but now they aren’t?

Stracynski killed Spider-man… BOO!

It’s not that he killed Spider-man in a story, it’s that it was so bad and was the begginning of the end for the book. I mean, Those two years were the worst possible Spider-man stories of all time. If a writer wanted to do an acual unmasking story it wouldn’t mean a damn thing now, even if it was actually good or even great. That character is dried up and gone for good.

Doug Ramsey wrote:
It’s not that he killed Spider-man in a story, it’s that it was so bad and was the begginning of the end for the book. I mean, Those two years were the worst possible Spider-man stories of all time. If a writer wanted to do an acual unmasking story it wouldn’t mean a damn thing now, even if it was actually good or even great. That character is dried up and gone for good.

Let’s please not assign magical powers to our comic book writers. If someone writes a good comic, it’s a good comic regardless of what’s come before.

I suppose that was Captain America’s pointed jab at Stephen Colbert.

Jason Todd, at least, was specifically said to actually be dead until a Superboy punch in the story telling how he came back to life. Not sure about Barry Allen. Not that it’s the BEST excuse, but it is at least consistent continuity-wise.

Not sure about Barry, whether it was mentioned or not. Haven’t read Flash: Rebirth or FC.

Sorry, retarded scene.

“It was about the country. It was always about the country.”

Thanks, Ghost of Captain Platitude.

Carl thinks:
It’s a little strange how Wolverine’s characterization has changed since the early 80’s. There’s no way he’d call Cap “the least of us” today.
He wouldn’t have done it then, either, but a lot of characters were poorly characterized in Secret Wars, and the X-Men got a big ol’ short end of the stick for that whole series.

Kinda reminds me of the Amazing Spider-man 9/11 issue that JMS and Romita, Jr. did.

Very powerful story, art and sequence.

Tom Fitzpatrick- Interesting that you have that reaction. I have the exact opposite. I feel both scenes b y JMS exploited emotions and coasted with ludicrous dialogue because JMS knew people were emotionally attached.

I seem to remember a rather large resurrection boner left hanging out, in the very pages of Captain America no less- and it would have somewhat interesting ramifications if it was ever brought up in Brubaker’s run: It was a halloween special. Gru had Cap visit Skull house after someone called his hotline saying there were lights seen- The Red Skull’s Ghost began tormenting him, but Cap didn’t buy it as the Skull house utilized hologram technology- in the end it was revealed that Dr. Faustus was using the Skull house as a base of ops, and he had tried to drive Cap crazy with holograms of enemies and loved ones- it didn’t work of course, but right at the end as Faustus tried to make his getaway, the REAL ghost of Johann Schmidt appeared, pissed as hell that someone would try to use his home to do away with his greatest enemy and choked Faustus into a coma.

Of course, a number of issues later and Skull was brought back, and these days, I don’t recall Faustus and Skull discussing that particular incident.

FYI- I never seem to remember to type my name- I was the Anonymous above that was talking about Thor finding Cap’s death intolerable due to his great respect for the guy. Upon reflection of JMS’s little meeting, I’m liking it less and less- Thor knows Steve well enough not to need his ghost to impose a news blackout. I think the tribute would have worked better without a manifestation and Thor simply looking at Steve’s statue and then bringing the airwaves to a halt, explaining what Captain America means himself. It doesn’t need a half assed seance to get the point across.

I gotta disagree on the X-men characterizations is “Secret Wars” btw- the Cap/Wolvie friction is pretty interesting, and given Logan’s memory problems and the stress of being on battleworld coupled with finding some common ground with Magneto, I could see him standing up for Mags to Cap, and for mutants in general under those specific circumstances- remember back then Logan was much quicker to anger and pick fights.

The Logan having respect for Cap is a newer thing that started in the mid-90′s, much like the recent oddness of Spidey sobbing over Cap like he was Gwen Stacy considering even when he joined the Avengers, I would never have said they were the best of friends- that came off as cheap, rank, rampant sentimentality to me.

…And wait, didn’t Wolverine actually say to Cap in SW: “I used to have some respect for you…”

“Interesting that you have that reaction. I have the exact opposite. I feel both scenes b y JMS exploited emotions and coasted with ludicrous dialogue because JMS knew people were emotionally attached.”

Maybe my memory doesn’t serve me well, but wasn’t the Spidey issue “silent”?

Adam wrote: “I believe the “Ronin and Mockingbird” miniseries was supposed to reference the Legion of the Unliving thing, but have any of the other ghosts ever been addressed? In DC’s case, is it all “Superboy Punch”–yes, they were dead, but now they aren’t?”

Adam, I don’t remember it exactly, but in one of the Avengers “Legion of the Unliving” plots- Thor kind of gave an “out” for any shades that resembled loved ones or honored dead- he was fighting the Executioner, but couldn’t bring himself to strike down the man who died so nobly, until he rationalized it by saying the Executioner wouldn’t debase himself with that sort of dishonorable combat or something like that (you know, as if Skurge hadn’t engaged in dishonorable combat his whole career)- Thor basically said that it was some empowered shade that took the form of the Executioner.

Of course, the Mockingbird ghost that The Grim Reaper called up in the later “LOTU” stories is a bit harder to dismiss considering she remembered who she was and turned against the Reaper…. oops! Do you know how that was specifically addressed in the mini?

Um… Son of Hulk Punch?

@BDaly, no, it was Spidey’s (read: JMS’s) narration only. But the cover was all black.

And I think the line-wide “‘Nuff Said” silent issues came out only a few months after that, so they’re probably just tangled up in your memory.

@Marc Kandel: We are now blaming Son Of Hulk Punch on any and all Marvel inconsistencies. Well done!

[Quote]Of course, the Mockingbird ghost that The Grim Reaper called up in the later “LOTU” stories is a bit harder to dismiss considering she remembered who she was and turned against the Reaper…. oops! Do you know how that was specifically addressed in the mini?[/Quote]

Nope, and I’d love to know the answer. As I recall, the other LOTU members in that story were Dr. Druid, Thunderstrike, Mar-vell, the Swordsman, and Hellcat. Hellcat was later freed from hell in a Thunderbolts annual, which I believe referenced the LOTU story. Mockingbird’s soul was also heavily implied to be in hell (why?) in that story, so again, I don’t know how this jibes with her having secretly been on a Skrull ship all that time.

Mar-vell is still a ghost, BTW, and has appeared as such at least 3 times. I’d like to see somebody retcon THAT! (Actually, no, I wouldn’t.)

Quote Adam: “Mockingbird’s soul was also heavily implied to be in hell (why?) in that story, so again, I don’t know how this jibes with her having secretly been on a Skrull ship all that time.”

Because in one of the many, MANY shitass writing choices of the 90′s, Bobbi was killed by Mephisto as a quickie “Shock-as-pathos-throwaway” moment in Foil embossed West Coast Avengers 100, which to my shame, still rests within my comic collection. it was pointless, thoughtless, and it does not explain Bobbi being in hell, as its been dealt with a number of times (in Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom/Dr. Strange Triumph and Torment) that Mephisto, while being capable of killing a mortal, would not have a claim on the mortal’s soul- since Mephisto’s raison de etre (I’m too tired to spellcheck in french) is the collection of souls, killing Bobbi would piss off Hawkeye but would not add to his collection of souls as Bobbi was not an evil person and had no “bargain” that entitled Mephisto to her.

Bobbi coming back also annoyed me as once again, death as a force to be reckoned with in the MU is further diminished. Still doesn’t piss me off as much as JMS having Gwen Stacy knocked up by Norman Osborn, but there you go (that actually angers me even more than “OMD”).

Oh well, what can you do? SON OF HULK PUNCH!

Let’s just leave it as “Skrull Deep Stasis for the purposes of harvesting perfectly stable, preserved genetic code, material physical essence, and full psychic imprint and mental knowledge, emulates death to the point that a being’s “soul” may actually wander the astral plane, able to fall prey to any manner of ethereal beings, though the revival process is efficient enough to draw back the spirit energy to the source.”

Now gimme my fucking No-Prize.

Or, it was someone else (Loki?) playing with Thor’s feelings. Everything can be explained in comics; the trick is explaining it believably. (Hint: the simplest answers are usually the best.)

In any case, Marvel should be more careful with its own continuity. It’s one thing keeping their long-range plans from us fans, but not from their own writers. They used to be good at that, unlike Dc which has *always* suffered from poor editorial coordination.

Ah. So Loki succeeded in duping Thor into a 60 second news blackout, during which time she posted topless photos of herself on Twitter.

Yes. Yes, I like that. Exemplary work Sijo.

Upon reflection of JMS’s little meeting, I’m liking it less and less- Thor knows Steve well enough not to need his ghost to impose a news blackout. I think the tribute would have worked better without a manifestation and Thor simply looking at Steve’s statue and then bringing the airwaves to a halt, explaining what Captain America means himself. It doesn’t need a half assed seance to get the point across.

So it’s not a ghost. It’s Thor imagining what a conversation with Cap would be like, were his ghost to really show up. That’s just some Asgaardian-powered imagination at work, telling Thor to do what he already knew to do: honor Cap in his own way. That’s all the explanation you need: no Loki, no wandering shade, nothing but Thor and his brain, and it doesn’t contradict anything going on in Captain America #600+. Just because we see it on the page, that doesn’t mean it literally happened.

I do find it funny that JMS has written two of the best “emotional tribute” issues around (this one and the 9/11 issue), and they both end up being wildly divisive…

Well, I don’t really touch the 911 one b/c that’s a few artists’ straight out response to a real-life event brought through in a character they portray- and we all express ourselves in different ways about it. Its a tough topic to discuss when we’re kvetching over Doctor Doom giving a crap melded with the fact that real people are trying to deal with loss and horrific, overwhelming tragedy in ways best suited to their gifts.

For the Cap one, I just get annoyed- yes, it could be written off as a visual metaphor for Thor’s subconcious, but most (including myself) take it at face value.

I found it hacky sentimental claptrap from a writer who should know better.

Thor knows Steven Rogers. It shows too many cards to visually have Steve show up. It removes the mystery of death (and Marvel has enough problems with that). Its bad writing (and despite some crap plot choices in Spidey and this instance, I don’t think JMS is a bad writer overall- he’s done other emotional moments superbly well- like when he had May discover Peter’s secret in his run y’know, before that didn’t happen… again).

Having Steve whipped up from the ether contributes to the negation of death as a serious issue in the Marvel Universe. The whole point of loss is that you can’t talk to people. You can’t see your friend, or get closure. That’s what makes loss hard. For me, its cheap scrambling for an unearned emotional moment- JMS can be better than that. In fact as far as he’s handled Thor thus far, he is better than that.

Y’know what, I’ll go with the Loki explanation. Or, to quote the Simpsons,

Lucy Lawless: “Well, whenever you see something like that….a wizard did it.”

Fan: “But what about–”

Lucy: “WIZARD!”

I liked that issue and what JMS did. Because if you remember, in just about every interview up to that point both Joe Q and Brubaker were saying that Steve was actually dead, and implied that it wasn’t just a stunt. Obviously we’re gonna have to wait and see how this all plays out, but this Thor comic would be an interesting comment on dishonesty if we get a “he was just sleeping” type of story.

Oh, and Wolverine was such a little jerk back in the day. Remember that Cap annual? Say what you want about Wolverine Origins but the Wolverine/Cap fight was probably the last and most honest interaction they’ve had in a long time.

“I do find it funny that JMS has written two of the best “emotional tribute” issues around (this one and the 9/11 issue), and they both end up being wildly divisive…”

Is that the one where Doctor Doom cries?

Because that is not anywhere in the realm of “good writing”.

uh oh….

“Yes. Yes, I like that. Exemplary work Sijo.”

You’re welcome.

This is what it sounds like…

…When Doom cries…

Doom-doom-doom. Doom, Doom-doom-doom. Doom-doom-doom. Doom, Doom-doom-doom.