Comic Book Resources

This is hilarious.

Nice.

Rick is my kind of guy.

This is your best so far, guys.

I’ve been toying with trying out the Dragonball Vizbigs, at least up to the point where Dragonball proper ends and DBZ begins.

How could anyone not like DBZ that show was awesome. That and Sailor Moon got me into anime

How could anyone not like DBZ that show was awesome. That and Sailor Moon got me into anime

It’s pretty easy – I actively dislike both of them.
Sailor Moon was way too bubbly and cutsey for my tastes (and it always had that Josh Middelton level of awkwardness to it where they all looked so young yet were obviously there to give you a perv), and DBZ was just entire episodes of people fighting.
YAWN.

How could anyone not like DBZ that show was awesome. That and Sailor Moon got me into anime

How many DBZ characters does it take to change a lightbulb?

One, but it takes four episodes.

I’ve never seen Sailor Moon, but I disliked DBZ about as much as someone can without going overboard into full, frothing fanboy hatred. Long before people were bitching about Brian Bendis, that show made a sick, twisted art out of decompression. And at least with Bendis, you get characterization and dialogue; DBZ gives you INTENSE! STANDING! ACTION! and characters on the sidelines remarking about power measurements and other nonsense illustrating how cool the fight you’re not watching would be, if they ever got around to it. And the stakes kept getting raised to absurdly higher degrees all the time without any corresponding increase in tension, because any and all casualties (up to and including the entire freaking universe) will end up magiced back to good health by the end. And, with the noticeable exception of tentacle rape, it’s got all the most painful cliches of anime that make people with a sense of discernment shy away from the entire genre (in fact, it may have even created some of them). And you can get tentacle rape from the fanart.

The manga, as I understand it, is the same thing, but mercifully with fewer storyarcs. So, basically, the DBZ cartoon took a bad comic and made it worse. That’s an achievement of some kind, but not one I’d brag about.

Lovely character designs, though.

Hell, just look at what Rick says are the hallmarks of the DragonBall he loves so well: “Fast-paced action tempered by humor and strong characterization, gorgeous art that really knows how to tell the story, and a blending of Japanese mythology and original concepts that rivals Sandman or Fables for imagination.” The DBZ anime didn’t just lack those things, it seemed to actively avoid them.

I could never get into DB(z) because every time I saw an episode, they were out of order. Sometimes the main guy (Goku I think) was a kid, sometimes an adult, then he had a kid with him, then he had a monkey tail then he was an adult again and so forth. It’s not a knock on the show, just my reason for not being into it.

JackKing:
It sounds like you’re talking about DBGT which was a bit better than DBZ and things actually happened a little quicker in that show. In DBZ missing one or two (heck even up to 5 or 6) episodes wouldn’t have made you nearly as confused. But the original Dragon Ball was the best by far.

DBZ had a primarily good first 70 episodes and intermittent bursts of goodness afterwards (the series ran for like 300 shows). The problem, I heard, was that Toriyama was still drawing the manga on which the show was based at the same time that episodes were airing. So what would happen is: they’d adapt the manga up to the latest issue, but when they ran out of material, the fans would still demand more new episodes. The production team wanted to stick to Toriyama’s story so they would devise filler episodes, in the truest sense of the word, where absolutely nothing would or could happen and all the key players remained in the same state and place they were in the previous episode, lest they veer off from Toriyama’s story.

Also, in my opinion, the Spider-Man = Coming of Age Story thing is crap.

Dragonball was a good superhero comic that had the sense to end when it was discovered it was past it’s prime.

If only DC and Marvel (And the newspaper syndicates for that matter) had done the same with their properties back in the 1980s, comics as a whole would be a lot better.

One of my friends would force me to watch DBZ for about a year or so, and the only way to get through it was to watch taped episodes and fast through 90% of it. His viewpoint made sense though, he would just watch it as though it were a wrestling feud.

Its fairly common for an anime series to run out stories from the manga to tell. Full Metal Alchemist had the same problem. But it actually continued to be an amazing series even when forced to tell its own story with the characters. Man, I love me some FMA.

Yeah, Cass, I never really bought the idea of Spidey’s story being a coming of age story… If you look at the classic early run, you see, that he graduates high school fairly early on and spends most of his time as an adult. The remarkable thing about classic Spidey is characters grew, aged, and even died. Spidey continued to mature until at some point they just froze him in time. So, to me, the idea that the essence of Spider-man is a this young, single, loser trying to grow up just doesn’t cut it.

Also, DBZ should be written by Jeff Loeb and have more gay characters.

While I can’t say I dislike DBZ, here’s a good example of why it’s really annoying. I’m referring to the Anime, not the manga her. I haven’t read them, so I can’t really comment.

My local station used to show it early in the morning about 10 years ago. At the time I was getting up early to work out and would watch the show. They were showing the Freeza saga and Krilling, Vegeta, and Gohan were getting their butts kicked on Namek. I think about two weeks went by when I realized that Goku was still on the friggin ship working out. The plots are so dragged out, it can really take you out of the story.

Also, when the “hero” consistently refuses to finish off the bad guy because he wants to fight him at “full strength”, it’s a little off putting. He essentially endangers billions of lives to satisfy his own ego.

When I later watched to original Dragonball episodes, I saw how the show used to be much better when it actually had a plot and wasn’t essentially a bunch of guys measuring their d!(ks.

Is the real subject of the strip Dragonball or is it about reviewing styles?

it seems to be about both… I’ve noticed this series likes to discuss a comics and the way we see comics at the same time.

DBZ was just entire episodes of people fighting.
YAWN.

I can understand a nonsuperhero comic fan saying this, but not a superhero comic fan. 85% of superhero comics are nothing but fighting as well (at least pre-Bendis).

The reason Dragonball Z is decompressed so badly is that unlike American cartoon adaptations, DBZ anime was slavishly loyal to the manga. How loyal? So loyal that they were basically word for word, scene for scene adaptations. The problem is, the manga was still running while the show was airing, so there was a constant danger of the show episodes catching up to the manga because so many episodes were ordered each season. To give the manga plenty of lead time, the animators sloooooooooooowed down the pacing to ensure they[d never catch up to the manga. This is the reason for the extreme decompression. If you read the DBZ manga, it is nowhere near as decompressed.

Now that the manga is long over, TOEI studios is currently rectifying this problem with a remastered version of the series called Dragonball Kai, currently airing in Japan. http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Kai

Since the decompression is no longer necessary, they’re cutting out all decompression and filler material and reducing the series run from 291 episodes to 100 in order to make it follow the pacing of the manga more closely.

” I can understand a nonsuperhero comic fan saying this, but not a superhero comic fan. 85% of superhero comics are nothing but fighting as well (at least pre-Bendis). ”

With Bendis, you may get issues where there’s no story action and progress, but you’ll at least get clever banter between the characters and some nice emotional moments. DBZ episodes didn’t just center exclusively around fighting– they centered around talking about fighting, characters staring at each other, grunting, and talking about power levels.

But I feel for Rick, a critic in the lonely position of liking something without reservations, or even using his enjoyment of it to put down something else.

With Bendis, you may get issues where there’s no story action and progress, but you’ll at least get clever banter between the characters and some nice emotional moments. DBZ episodes didn’t just center exclusively around fighting– they centered around talking about fighting, characters staring at each other, grunting, and talking about power levels.

First, I explictly excluded Bendis when I said 85% of superhero comics were fighting. (I said “pre-Bendis”)

Second, I disagree, I think the character work had much more depth in DBZ than in a Bendis work. I think the problem is in America we want to compartmentalize everything in our minds. Fighting is just fighting. Character development must explicitly be displayed as character development, meaning a specific dialogue with all the superficial storytelling trappings that scream to the reader “THIS IS A CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT MOMENT!” A quite conversation, a heartfelt confession, tears, jokes. Dragonball Z had character development and emotional scenes woven into the fight scenes, in a way that it was very hard to separate it from the fighting. Also, it had long stretches where no fighting took place, like Gohan at school.

The character work and emotional scenes in DBZ were much better than anything I’ve found in a modern American superhero comic.

Bendis & “Clever banter” don’t belong in the same website. Bendis and Banter that you’re supposed to think is clever and that you’re told is clever but isn’t…yeah.

” I can understand a nonsuperhero comic fan saying this, but not a superhero comic fan. 85% of superhero comics are nothing but fighting as well (at least pre-Bendis). ”

??? what superhero comics have you been reading the past 7 decades? I cannot think of any comic, including the original Secret Wars, that was 85% fighting. The only thing Bendis brought to the table was taking 2 pages of exposition and making it into 4 issues. (I’m a huge fan of Knights of the Dinner table, but sometimes I think Bendis is a bigger fan and wants to make his books an homage to them)

the only thing I know about Dragonball Z is that a show which features characters destroying galaxies or whatever isn’t really worth the time.

Decompression certainly made the anime nigh-unwatchable at times, but the manga had its share of problems too. Specifically, once the Freeza saga ended, it had no idea where to go next, and so it just repeated the Freeza saga two more times with different names.

Seriously, you could have plotted the last two thirds of DBZ like it was a Mad Libs book. Bad guy shows up and morphs into ______increasingly-powerful forms. The good guys go train in ________, where time moves slower on the inside relative to the outside. They reach Super Saiyan level _______. One of the bad guys switches sides. All of the non-alien good guys look on and gasp. The remaining bad guy is engulfed in a big ball of light.

Seriously, you could have plotted the last two thirds of DBZ like it was a Mad Libs book. Bad guy shows up and morphs into ______increasingly-powerful forms. The good guys go train in ________, where time moves slower on the inside relative to the outside. They reach Super Saiyan level _______. One of the bad guys switches sides. All of the non-alien good guys look on and gasp. The remaining bad guy is engulfed in a big ball of light.

Come on now, you can do “fill in the blank” storylines with just about any American superhero comics as well.

Peter Parker needs money, plus he’s unlucky in love. A chance for success in the form of __________ appears. But lo and behold, at a critical point, _____________ attacks. Peter has to forego his chance for ______ in order to stop ____________, but when it’s all said and done, he wins, but in the process he loses his chance for success, he ends up alienating __________ by his apparently unreliable behavior, and JJJ manages to take his superheroic victory and spin it to make Spidey look like a villain in the interaction.

Superman or Batman are even worse.

Batman: Commissioner Gordon shines a bat light in the sky and tells Batman about a problem. Batman disappears off the roof. It turns out that since the crimes have a _____________ theme, the criminal must be _____________, the criminal who uses those themes and broke out of Arkham. Now he has to figure out what happens next. By using Oracle, threatening thugs with bodily harm and anayzing clues, maybe deliberately left to taunt Batman, Batman is able to figure out _________’s next move. He shows up to foil his plan, beat up _________ and his henchmen and send him back to Arkham.

Specifically, once the Freeza saga ended, it had no idea where to go next, and so it just repeated the Freeza saga two more times with different names.

As far as havng no idea where to go and just repeating old sagas, this is an industry with umtpeen Thing vs. Hulk fights, yet another team has announced they’re tired of being reacting and will now go proactive, Jeph Loeb told Long Halloween 3 times, most recently in the form of Hush. Batman is currently retelling Knightfall and Prodigal, just with a way longer timeline.

I’m not saying you’re criticisms aren’t valid regarding DBZ, just that American superhero comics are just as guilty if not moreso.

A metajoke about video comics reviews on the Internet?

You’re really pitching to an extremely limited audience with this strip, aren’t you?

Wow! T wins!
(Bonus points for mentioning Jeff Loeb!)

“You’re really pitching to an extremely limited audience with this strip, aren’t you?”

I think they’re pitching to the audience that reads this blog.

T, if your Batman boilerplate is correct, as far as I can see, only “He shows up to foil his plan, beat up _________ and his henchmen and send him back to Arkham.” involves fighting, which is at best 25% of the story, so I don’t know where you’re getting this 85%

Meanwhile, for DBZ, we have “Bad guy shows up and morphs into ______increasingly-powerful forms.” (Which involves fighting) “The good guys go train in ________, where time moves slower on the inside relative to the outside.” (Which involves fighting) “They reach Super Saiyan level _______.” (Thanks to fighting) One of the bad guys switches sides. All of the non-alien good guys look on and gasp. The remaining bad guy is engulfed in a big ball of light. (Which involves fighting) .

“American superhero comics are just as guilty”

SOME American superhero comics are just as guilty. But those are the WORST. If your thesis is DBZ is as good as the worst American superhero comics, then I would agree.

I can understand a nonsuperhero comic fan saying this, but not a superhero comic fan. 85% of superhero comics are nothing but fighting as well (at least pre-Bendis).

That’s not true and you know it – often the violence isn’t the solution, and there’s a lot more time spent on characterisation.

That said, to be fair, I don’t read 85% of superhero comics – Iread the entertaining one’s, and they are usually a blend of charaterisation, story and action.
DBZ, the animated series, had entire episodes – hell, it looked like episode after episode – of nothing but two characters fighting.
No character, no plot progression, just fighting.

“The reason Dragonball Z is decompressed so badly is that unlike American cartoon adaptations, DBZ anime was slavishly loyal to the manga. How loyal? So loyal that they were basically word for word, scene for scene adaptations. The problem is, the manga was still running while the show was airing, so there was a constant danger of the show episodes catching up to the manga because so many episodes were ordered each season. To give the manga plenty of lead time, the animators sloooooooooooowed down the pacing to ensure they[d never catch up to the manga. This is the reason for the extreme decompression. If you read the DBZ manga, it is nowhere near as decompressed.”

There’s also the fact that if you take an action sequence from the page and faithfully adapt it to the screen, the balance between action and dialogue gets thrown out of whack because the perception of time works differently on the page than when it’s occurring in real time. I noticed this in particular in an early episode of Naruto; there was a sequence that, in the manga was a two-page spread that mostly consisted of a massive attack, with some small panels at the bottom with characters commenting on the attack. On the page, it’s clear that the attack is the important part and the commentary just set dressing. On the screen, the attack took five seconds to depict, and the commentary took thirty seconds, transforming an action sequence in to a talk sequence.

The fluid nature of time in comics just doesn’t always translate well to the screen, especially when dialogue is involved. Imagine taking a classic Spider-Man fight scene (one of the ones where he’s quipping non-stop) and literally putting it on the screen, interpolating all the dialogue between the action shown on the page. You’d wind up with a scene where Spider-Man hovers for fifteen seconds delivering his dialogue, then throws a punch, waits for the villain to deliver his retort, dodges, etc. You wouldn’t wind up with the sort of fast-paced action that you imagine on the page, because comics cheat when it comes to depicting time.

And the reason the manga had repetitive story arcs is that Toriyama wanted to end the series several times, but wasn’t allowed to because it was too popular. His heart clearly wasn’t in it after a while; still, judging the entire franchise by that point in the series is liking judging all of Claremont’s X-Men run by the point in the early 90s when he’d stopped resolving plotlines, and judging all of DBZ by the anime is like judging all of Claremont’s X-Men by X-Men 3. Is the idea that some parts of a franchise are better than others really that hard to accept?

That’s not true and you know it – often the violence isn’t the solution, and there’s a lot more time spent on characterisation.

How are you going to tell me what I know and don’t know? First, violence is almost ALWAYS the solution in an American superhero comic, just like it is in DBZ. For every comic you can show me where that isn’t the case, I can show you 500 where it is. Batman punches things, Superman punches things, Spider-Man punches things. Second, I do NOT know is that more time is spent on characterization ni American superhero comics, because that simply is not true. DBZ has more character growth and characterization than any American superhero comic character at Marvel and DC, period. THAT is what I know.

DBZ spends more time on characterization and story than your average superhero comic. The evolution of the character arcs of Goku, Piccolo, Gohan and Vegeta are much more than the evolution of any superhero character at the big 2 comic companies ever.

The evolution takes place in the form of overcoming your foibles and gaining personal redemption through sacrifice, hard work, love, fighting for your family and friendship.

Gohan goes from sheltered fragile child to someone who is forced to learn how to fight from his father’s worst enemy in the wilderness to someone who becomes brave enough to fight for what’s right to someone who eventually gains enough confidence to actually surpass his father in sheer power and believe in himself enough to save the world to a world class scholar college student to big brother and to husband and father. Realizing that he does have the potential to be more powerful than his father and making his father proud by living up to his faith in him and saving earth when his father couldn’t. But also realizing that despite his potential, he is not his father and doesn’t love fighting the way his father does. He realizes he has his own destiny as a scholar first and a fighter second.

Piccolo starts off as an evil monster who by training Gohan, son of his mortal enemy, gains his first true friend, which then makes him more of an antihero. He begins as a threat to the planet, then starts fighting evil and protecting earth solely for his own self-interest, then through the friendship of Gohan actually gains moral character and even buries the hatchet with his archenemy Goku and redeems himself as an actual good person. Who he is by the end is totally different than who he was in the beginning.

Vegeta starts off as an aristocratic, elitist tyrant with royal blood and no regard for life and thinking all other life forms are beneath him. Goku, a fellow alien from his home world who is of lower birth and middle class blood has surpassed him, and it is his first humiliation, his first humbling experience. He begins to develop an inferiority complex from that. This inferiority complex becomes his personal demon, his inability to match or surpass the feats of this man of low birth, this man who should on paper be totally of lower power and rank than him. Even as he wins the love of an earth woman and has an earth child and seems to have left his delusions of grandeur and bloodlust behind, and even though he is still gruff, you think of him as one of the good guys now. And lo and behold, when facing one of their newest and worst enemies, Vegeta, domesticated father and teammate to the rest of the heroes accepts and makes a deal with the enemy for the chance to regain his power, evil and bloodlust, much to everyone, including the viewers’, surprise.

At first it seems incongruent and out of the blue, but it gets explained in an incredible piece of writing and characterization and it’s not only powerful and moving but it makes total sense. Great characterization and motivation in this scene, and it’s a hell of a metaphor for what a man goes through in a midlife crisis when he loses his first, when he sees his dreams start slipping out of his grasp, when he feels the fire that moved him in youth leave him…this is where he explained why he made the deal with the devil and betrayed the heroes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShwU9iJ6oSw&feature=related

Then he describes what the last few years of “going good” and watching the world pass him by was like. Lots of themes of class warfare, loss of fortune and immigration come into play here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFYEvtNH0BA

His fall from grace, his humiliations, his domestication, so many recurring themes of humanity to touch on in that one sequence. Sure it’s taking place during a fight so viewers who compartmentalize everything as either an action scene or a drama scene will just write it off as just a big fight, but there are tons of characterization and true dramatic angst and human themes there. And eventually, after Vegeta makes a big mess of everything and sells what’s left of his decency, he realizes far too late that what he thought was his biggest strength, his drive to succeed and win at all costs was actually his weakness, and what he thought was a weakness and sought to avoid, which was compassion, domesticity, human relationships, love, were actually strengths. He realizes too late that Goku’s family & friends were the reason why Goku was stronger then him all this time. That class, royal birth, grand destinies were nothing compared to that all along. Then Vegeta realizes even though he has a family of his own, his anger made him weaker and kept him from deriving the same strength from his own family that Goku derived from his own. His whole value system from birth was a lie he realizes in a moment of clarity. He finally admits Goku is number one because he fights for his family and friends, the people he cares about and loves. He has one last moment with his son where he realizes he really does love him and wants him to be proud of him as a man and he goes on to make one final sacrifice, finding redemption once and for all.

Every character in DBZ has huge arcs like this, where how they end up is radically different from where they started, and its not just random story directions for the hell of it, the changes are organic, gradual and totally the sum of their experiences. Just because DBZ doesn’t blatantly segregate and label it’s action and characterization scenes the way American superhero comics do and actually blends them seamlessly together and simultaneously, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking no characterization is going on. After all, in Amerian superhero comics fights are a break from characterization scenes and characterization scenes are a break from fighting. In DBZ, they build character through fighting.

Now, in 60 years, can you describe similar levels of characterization and growth for DC and Marvel characters? No, because superhero comics are about the ILLUSION of growth, not actual growth. The same demons Daredevil is fighting over in Bendis’ and Brubaker’s runs are the same ones Miller had him fighting. In the 40s Batman was a rich millionaire who fought crime at night because he couldn’t get over his parent’s death and it drove him to fight crime. Fast forward a few decades and at his essence he is doing the exact same things for the exact same reasons, only the window dressing has changed (he’s a little darker now, and a little richer). Superman was a mild-mannered reporter during his day job and a crimefighting icon with a reporter girlfriend at the Daily Planet. And how much has he changed in 60 years in terms of character growth? Nowhere near as much as all the DBZ characters changed. Peter Parker is still broke, trying to juggle love triangles, getting slandered by JJJ, shooting photographs and having bad luck. Even when major events happen like Jason Todd’s death, Superman’s marriage or Gwen Stacy’s death, the characters pretty much revert to their old status quo for the most part within a year like nothing happened except for paying a litle occasional lip service to the event. And you have things like Dick Grayson fighting to get out of the “shadow of the bat” yet AGAIN, after 30+ years of supposedly trying to deal with the same inferiority complex. Gohan meanwhile decisively overcame his inferiority complex and surpassed his dad decisively in just a few years. Real change, real character growth.

American superhero comics are the illusion of change and character growth. Batman will never be allowed to make peace with his parents’ death and become well-adjusted. Daredevil will never stop battling over and over the same demons Miller gave him and doing self-destructive crap in Hell’s Kitchen. Spider-Man will never forgive himself for Uncle Ben’s death and feel that all the good he’s done is enough for him to say he’s fulfilled his responsibility, and he will never find a way to become a financial success once and for all. And for the most part all their personalities will remain frozen, unlike DBZ.

First, characterisation =/= character growth

Second, having A LOT of characterisation is not the same as having GOOD characterisation. A GOOD piece of art is able to convey huge amounts of character in tiny gestures. It is hard to have SUBTLE characterisation when you characters are constantly fighting and YELLING MELODRAMATICALLY TO EACH OTHER.

Could it be? Is DBZ actually MORE contreversial than gays in comics?

“The evolution takes place in the form of overcoming your foibles and gaining personal redemption through sacrifice, hard work, love, fighting for your family and friendship.”

You just described the first one hundred issues of Spider-man. You also described the way the character of Kitty Pryde developed. Also How Wally West finally lived up to the legend of Barry Allen. Oh, and the arc that Nightwing followed from just a goofy boy in tights to a leader of his own group of heroes. In a lesser degree something similar happened to most of the character in the original Batman and the Outsiders…

In the cases I just mentioned Spider-man went from a lonely, bullied kid who nursed power fantasies to a responsible adult, making decisions that were detrimental to himself, but serving a greater good! Wally West, went from a self loathing womanzier to a responsible family man.

In your list, you basically mention the central premises that drive the characters, as if they must change those to grow. Not so. They can and have changed in other ways. Batman went from being a loner to being more community minded, becoming a leader and head of his own family, of sorts. Spider-man graduated high school, got over several bouts of his own ego, mourned his dead, and fell in love again. Daredevil, I can’t say much about as I read little of his title. From my perspective, though, you seem to be right about him. He doesn’t seem to grow much. But if he did, I wouldn’t expect it to change his central premise.

The character do indeed change and grow, but unfortunately there is always someone who misses the comics of their youths and make the character revert back to some previous point. It not that character growth doesn’t happen. It’s just that it keeps getting undone. Thankfully some changes have stuck. Peter Parker has still married… Dick Grayson is still… Wally west is… uhh…

You know…. at this point I’m not even sure if Uncle Ben is still dead. He may be brought back in Darkest Night for all I know…

uh… thanks DC and Marvel. I tried.

How are you going to tell me what I know and don’t know?

Because you’ve got a habit of ignoring or exaggerating things in order to ‘prove’ your points.

For every comic you can show me where that isn’t the case, I can show you 500 where it is. Batman punches things, Superman punches things, Spider-Man punches things.

Really?
Because normally it comes down more to Batman solving the crime or mystery, and then there’s a fight, or Spiderman thinking his way out of the current trap.

Second, I do NOT know is that more time is spent on characterization ni American superhero comics, because that simply is not true. DBZ has more character growth and characterization than any American superhero comic character at Marvel and DC, period. THAT is what I know.

I used to see that show if I got to Tafe early – there were entire episodes of two dudes hitting each other.
Entire episodes – in fact episode after episode on some battles.
Zero plot, zero characterisation, zero character growth.
I’ve not seen that in a superhero issue – there may be some out there, hello 90′s image, but none that I’ve read.

Batman will never be allowed to make peace with his parents’ death and become well-adjusted.

Actually, with the way he reacted to the issues, that would be a very unlikely character arc,

Daredevil will never stop battling over and over the same demons Miller gave him and doing self-destructive crap in Hell’s Kitchen. Spider-Man will never forgive himself for Uncle Ben’s death and feel that all the good he’s done is enough for him to say he’s fulfilled his responsibility, and he will never find a way to become a financial success once and for all.

Same with these guys,

And to be honest – that’s not flaws, these characters weren’t created with those endings in mind, and it would go against the very themes of their books (something you seem to want to overlook because we said mean things about a kids cartoon you like).

And for the most part all their personalities will remain frozen, unlike DBZ.

Except… everyone else is saying that book/show became stagnant and boring because they stretched it out past the point those characters were designed to last.

(Of course, I’m lost as to why I have to defend Spiderman, Batman and Daredevil in response to a quote from me when they have nothing to do with what I’m saying – we talking individual issues/episodes here or across the course of the entire series? Because it seems to me to make your defense you’ve had to shift the discussions goalposts a country mile).

I liked Dragon Ball as a clever and often witty take on A Journey to the West (and, by extension, the Hanuman legend from which that is derived). The Red Ribbon Army stuff was less fun, but Piccolo Daimyo was simply awesome as an antagonist, and the Tenchi Budokai plots are always fun.

DBZ was remarkably enjoyable, if less balanced between humor and action as Dragon Ball. The Freeza Saga did, however, uncover unusual depths. The problem following Freeza was less one of escalation or parallel arc structure, I think, than it was a series of not-entirely-successful efforts to add and spotlight new characters like Videl, Goten, Chibi Trunks, and the reformed Androids. Vegeta’s maturation worked, and Mr. Satan was a surprisingly nuanced character by the end, but beyond a certain point it became clear that Toriyama was just tired of the whole thing and wanted to do Dr. Slump or something entirely new.

The less said about GT, the better, IMHO. Dunno about newer-school Dragonball in anime, as I’d much rather watch Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged and The Wire in my spare time these days.

I don’t exaggerate and ignore things to make my point. In fact, I think I include and consider more evidence in my points than just about anyone else. Just because it leads me to different conclusions than you doesn’t mean I’m exaggerating and ignoring things.

Except… everyone else is saying that book/show became stagnant and boring because they stretched it out past the point those characters were designed to last.

I know everyone else is saying that. My point is that many of these people read superhero comics, which are much more guilty of keeping a stagnant and boring premise going way too long than DBZ is. I mean sure DBZ didn’t reinvent the wheel much after the Frieza saga. But Superman pretty much said all he had to say after Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? He really could have ended there. Batman hasn’t said anything new in ages and has been stagnant for decades as well. After Year One and DKR he could have stopped too.

So what I’m saying is this big complaint these people have about DBZ being stagnant is a criticism that can apply to 90% of existing Superhero franchises that have lasted 10 years or more. I just think they are more forgiving of it when it comes to the properties they grew up because it ties into their own personal nostalgia.

(Of course, I’m lost as to why I have to defend Spiderman, Batman and Daredevil in response to a quote from me when they have nothing to do with what I’m saying – we talking individual issues/episodes here or across the course of the entire series? Because it seems to me to make your defense you’ve had to shift the discussions goalposts a country mile).

I’m not shifting goalposts. I already established why the episodes moved so slow in my previous responses. They were deliberately decompressed, so as to give the manga lead time over the anime and keep the anime from catching up to the manga. The reason I brought this up in the first place was to explain why I don’t think it’s fair to use one anime episode as a unit of comparison to one American superhero comic book. Since I established early on in the thread that you have to forgive the slow pacing of the anime and go by the pacing of the manga instead to fairly judge DBZ’s characterization, I don’t see how I can be considered to be moving the goalposts to say you should compare growth per storyline when comparing DBZ to American Superhero comics.

But honestly, even if you were to go by individual episodes, fine, I think if you took 12 issues of your average American superhero comic and 12 decompressed episodes of DBZ, on average I think you’d have the same amount of character growth.

Same with these guys,

No, I’ve given you specific examples of how each character had concrete tangible changes from where they were introduced to where they were by the time the series ended, and it was significantly different in temperament, physical appearance, age and life stage for each one. For you to read all that and still just summarily say “Same with these guys” shows you are actually exaggerating and ignoring points, the very thing you accused me of being guilty of.

And to be honest – that’s not flaws, these characters weren’t created with those endings in mind, and it would go against the very themes of their books (something you seem to want to overlook because we said mean things about a kids cartoon you like).

I just gave you three examples of substantial character growth arcs, emotional maturation and significant physical and psychological change for three major protaganists of the series that can’t be matched by any American superhero characters and you just summarily dismiss that with “same with these guys” and you accuse ME of overlooking evidence?

And why do you always dismiss my criticism with these ad hom attacks trying to psychoanalyze my motives? You don’t like that I said mean things about Dark Knight so you overlook all my valid criticisms of the movie and decide that it all boils down to me secretly just being unhappy that “it’s not my Batman” and making up stuff. Now I defend DBZ as having significant charaterization and character growth and you boil it down to me doing the same knee-jerk reaction you had when I critcicized Dark Knight: overlooking evidence because someone said something mean about something I liked. Why not just debate my points and evidence instead of dismissing them and trying to psychoanalyze my motives instead? The cheap shots are getting tiresome. I’ll even take it one step further…even if you were 100% right about my motives or mindset, and I was motivated by the absolute pettiest of reasons, none of that would change the fact that my evidence is thorough and my positions on these matters, even if in the end you think they’re wrong or right, are totally plausible and defensible. So can you please stop trying to change the focus from the comics to my psychology and motives when debating and stick to the points I bring up? Thank you.

And the reason I bring up those superhero characters I bring up is because you claim that American superhero comics contain so much character growth. I think they don’t. All the character growth actually happens in the origin story. After that, they become more of less frozen in their character. Batman and Superman and Spider-Man, all of their major characterization and character growth occurs in their individual origin stories. The growth is “front-loaded.” I’m not saying that makes them bad. I think when you have an ongoing property that has to last decades with no end in sight, you are seriously limited in how much growth you can have. DBZ had consistent and permanent character growth throughout that only accelerated with time.

My point was that I wanted to point out was that the criticisms people are levying against Dragonball Z, just about every ongoing action comic under the sun is more guilty of.

DBZ was remarkably enjoyable, if less balanced between humor and action as Dragon Ball. The Freeza Saga did, however, uncover unusual depths. The problem following Freeza was less one of escalation or parallel arc structure, I think, than it was a series of not-entirely-successful efforts to add and spotlight new characters like Videl, Goten, Chibi Trunks, and the reformed Androids. Vegeta’s maturation worked, and Mr. Satan was a surprisingly nuanced character by the end, but beyond a certain point it became clear that Toriyama was just tired of the whole thing and wanted to do Dr. Slump or something entirely new.

The less said about GT, the better, IMHO. Dunno about newer-school Dragonball in anime, as I’d much rather watch Yu-Gi-Oh Abridged and The Wire in my spare time these days.

I agree on all these points, especially the true weaknesses of the post-Frieza storylines. It wasn;t repetitive storylines and structures (for as I pointed out every action hero is guilty of repetitive storylines), it was uninspiring new characters taking up too much spotlight. Toriyama truly did seem like he was getting bored by this point when he dealt with those characters, but like you point out, his work with Mr. Satan, Goku and Vegeta’s redemption did show he still seemed to be able to find a last bit of inspiration when dealing with certain characters.

And yeah, GT sucked big time.

I’d advise for someone who had never gotten into DBZ before to skip the original anime and read the manga or the new abridged and remastered anime instead.

Ah, my second favorite Internet debating tactic: Alleging hypocrisy on the part of the person you’re arguing with, often through use of a strawman, in hopes that people will suddenly forget about or excuse the stuff you’re wrong about.

“My point was that I wanted to point out was that the criticisms people are levying against Dragonball Z, just about every ongoing action comic under the sun is more guilty of.”

AS guilty of. You were arguing they were AS guilty of those crimes. And the best you proved is that they are SOMEWHAT guilty of them.

“you claim that American superhero comics contain so much character growth.”

Again character growth =/= CHARACTERISATION. “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” has heaps of character growth, it’s still a fairly slight story, Character growth doesn’t really count for shit.

“Why not just debate my points and evidence instead of dismissing them”

Why don’t YOU respond to MY points. I DON’T psychoanalyse you (I could but I don’t). AND when you said that liberals can’t tolerate opposing viewpoints as much as conservatives WAS THAT NOT PSYCHOANALYSIS?

Oh, and T, if you do stop cherrypicking the arguments you will and wont debate against, I’ll simplify my argument for you.

Point 1: DBZ has much more fighting than American Superhero comics (you never proved they had the same)
and
Point 2: Fighting doesn’t allow for GOOD characterisation (not just ANY characterisation) (and this has little to do with character growth)

Therefore: DBZ has worse characterisation.

Refute that. C’mon, I dare you.

Ah, my second favorite Internet debating tactic: Alleging hypocrisy on the part of the person you’re arguing with, often through use of a strawman, in hopes that people will suddenly forget about or excuse the stuff you’re wrong about.

Are you talking about me? If so, can you be specific? What was I wrong about that I dodged?

Why don’t YOU respond to MY points.

I thought you made your points fairly well, and even though I don’t 100% agree with them I am satisfied to agree to disagree as far as you’re concerned.

Okay, while i was responding to you, you wrote another comment, so let me just address that.

Point 1: DBZ has much more fighting than American Superhero comics (you never proved they had the same)
and

DBZ has weeks on end of nonstop fighting. But it also has weeks on end without fighting. Sure American superhero comics don’t traditionally spend long stretches of consecutive issues dedicated to one fight, but they also don’t spend long stretches of consecutive issues dedicated to downtime with little to no fighting. So if you just analyze the stretches with fights, it does seem to have much more fighting than an American superhero comic. But if you look at the percentage of the anime devoted to fighting

Point 2: Fighting doesn’t allow for GOOD characterisation (not just ANY characterisation) (and this has little to do with character growth)

False premise. I brought this up several times, DBZ doesn’t compartmentalize action and characterization the way American superhero comics do. In an American superhero comic, when a fight scene is going on, there is an implicit understanding that for the most part all character growth and characterization gets put on hold until the fight is over. In DBZ, there is not this compartmentalization. Characterization and character growth often occurs while fighting and often BECAUSE of the fighting. So pointing out that a significant amount of it was dedicated to fighting does not prove there was little characterization. In fact, since fighting was instrumental to their personal growth and most of their epiphanies and moments of personal discovery occured in battle, I’d argue that pointing out there was a ton of fighting is support for my claim that there was actually a lot of characterization and character growth happening.

Your statement that fighting doesn’t allow for good characterization would be like arguing no one grew and no characterization happened during Saving Private Ryan or Thin Red Line or any great action-packed war movie because so much fighitng was happening, when the truth is the action was used as a vehicle to show their growth and characterization. I’ve seen great Sgt. Rock stories with 90% action that had great displays of character growth for a one-off supporting character.

Hell, just look at what Rick says are the hallmarks of the DragonBall he loves so well: “Fast-paced action tempered by humor and strong characterization, gorgeous art that really knows how to tell the story, and a blending of Japanese mythology and original concepts that rivals Sandman or Fables for imagination.” The DBZ anime didn’t just lack those things, it seemed to actively avoid them.

I wouldn’t say it avoided those things. It just reeeaaaaalllllllyyyyy drrraaaaaged them ouuuuut. But everything that was in the manga made it to the screen. I can’t think of anything in the manga that the anime avoided.

I have to agree with T that you can have good characterization during a fight scene. Marvel sort of pioneered that in a superhero comic. Many Spidey and Captain America arcs culminated with them beating the crap out of the opposition while making statements about how they won’t give up etc. Its very John Wayne, to prove one’s virtue through one’s fist but it does happen in good stories. An example of this is the first time is when Spider-man fought Doc Oc the first time and was soundly beaten. After a brief loss of confidence, (it was his first defeat, after all) he comes back with his fists swinging.

Also, what superheroes do is fight, so HOW they fight is an important part of their characterization.

It’s strange that fighting is being discussed as if its a bad thing and characterization is being discussed as if its automatically a good thing. And “Character growth doesn’t really count for shit” is an entirely false statement.

Fighting is in fact the point of most Superhero comics. Why give wolverine claws, Batman martial art training, or Superman the ability to bounce bullets unless you’re going to put those abilities to the test! If action wasn’t what we wanted we would go watch daytime dramas. Or sitcoms.

Both of which are examples of characterization without growth. Without Character growth, characters are forced into the same behavior over and over, doing endless variations of the same themes. This can ultimately be comforting on a long term basis as the audience returns to the same characters they are familiar with. But the don’t make for good stories. In stories, things happen, and things change. In the more interesting stories, the things that change are the characters. This isn’t usually possible when you have to maintain the status quo, so you introduce other characters, so their lives can change instead. You may not be able to change Batman but you can have Robin grow up.

“The Boy Who Cried Wolf” is actually a good story. It has a beginning a middle an end. Something significant happens in it, and we have a central theme. It isn’t a meaty enough story for me to buy it as a movie or comic. But its so good we all remember it and have absorbed it into our culture. Could it be improved with characterization? Do we need to decompress it so we can see how the Wolf came into the area or why the Boy lies? Do we need a lot of cute dialogue to really get the subtleties of what makes the Boy lie? Do we need to know of the generations of Liars that preceded the Boy? I don’t think that would be a good story. It might be, but it would be a DIFFERENT STORY. A good story tells us all the things that are important to the motives of the storyteller. Sure “The Boy Who Cried Wolf” is a light story. Is that bad? A haiku is a light poem, but some are as good as “The Illiad” To me, a Godiva Truffle tastes as good as a whole chocolate cake

As for DBZ, I’ve never liked the way it looked and it did seem to be All fighting. And while I want action in my stories, I get exhausted if there is too much. But that is a matter of preference.

Heh. Reviewers really do think they are stand-up comedians most of the time. Good joke.

I think everything has been said already about DB, but the manga IS faster paced so anyone who is complaining about decompression in the anime should check it out (or watch the new DB Kai which has removed all anime original filler and shortened every fight to make it equal to the original material).

Filler and padding are problems in most anime adaptations though, for the reasons already mentioned (most of them follow the manga and tend to need breather space for new material); of the current “big” shonen, all 3 have filler in one way or another (Naruto’s was particularly annoying as it isn’t even referenced, while Bleach and One Piece’s at least is incorporated in some way into the main storyline). Series have fallen to it and been cancelled, due to diminishing fan attention and patience to endure the filler (Rurouni Kenshin, for example).

I’d add a huge caveat — my first encoutners with DBZ were the horrible censored American dubs via…Fnimation, I think?

Those really do lose not only the pacing but most of the humor and impact, since neither blood nor anything a parent might blink twice at were left in. Total Macekres.

@T

“DBZ has weeks on end of nonstop fighting. But it also has weeks on end without fighting.”

Then it isn’t really 85% fighting is it? Unless those weeks are very few and far between. I haven’t seen a lot of DBZ so I don’t know for sure what the percentage is. But YOU have seen at lot of DBZ and YOU said it was 85%. If it isn’t 85% (which I’m starting to think it isn’t) then it would have been much easier to say “It is not 85%”. If you had have said that I probably would have believed you. But rather you said American superhero comics were the same. And I know that to be false.

“In an American superhero comic, when a fight scene is going on, there is an implicit understanding that for the most part all character growth and characterization gets put on hold until the fight is over.”

I disagree. The way you put it (which, mind you, is verging on psychoanalysis) is that there is ARBITARY agreement that characterisation won’t happen during fighting. I think it happens for a REASON, which is that it is hard characterise while characters are fighting. Now, plenty of characterisation can exist while going into and coming out of a fight, but I don’t know what you can tell from the fighting other than “vicious”, “cowardly” and “honourable”.

“most of their epiphanies and moments of personal discovery occured in battle”

This is where I think the problem is. Because while characterisation can happen IN BATTLE I don’t think it really happens WHILE FIGHTING. Rather it happens in the quite moments between fighting. In say “Saving Private Ryan”, when we see Miller let the German prisoner go that’s not happening during fighting and when we see Upham cower while the German soldier walks past that’s not happening during fighting (others are fighting but he isn’t) and when Upham later kills that German soldier that’s not happening during fighting and when Miller tells Ryan to “earn this” that’s not happening during fighting. The only moment that I can think of characterisation during fighting is when Wade (I think that’s his name) is knifefighting a German soldier, but HAD that fight gone on for another minute there would be NO more characterisation.

I CAN see characterisation happening in the quite moments in the middle of fighting, but what I have seen of DBZ is: characters 100s of feet away from each other, fly in and punch rapidly, fly back 100s of feet. Any characterisation that happens 100s of feet away is going to be LOUD and BLATANT, thus losing any subtly and nuance. IF if have misrepresented DBZ then I will be wrong, but again you did not say that, you said American superhero comics were the same.

But THANK YOU for replying. And I mean that with all sincerity.

@geekmobster

“Many Spidey and Captain America arcs culminated with them beating the crap out of the opposition while making statements about how they won’t give up etc.”

Sure that is A LOT of characterisation, but is it GOOD (by which I mean subtle and interesting) characterisation. If Spidey or Cap has ALREADY gone into the fight (which was characterisation BEFORE the fighting) then surely we have ALREADY got the point that they won’t give up.

‘After a brief loss of confidence, (it was his first defeat, after all) he comes back with his fists swinging.”

Yes, so the characterisation comes AFTER the first fight and BEFORE the second.

“It’s strange that fighting is being discussed as if its a bad thing and characterization is being discussed as if its automatically a good thing.”

Characterisation IS automatically a good thing. If we can’t agree on that there is no point in us even discussing literature because we won’t even be talking about the same thing. Fighting was never called a bad thing, TOO MUCH fighting was called a bad thing.

“And “Character growth doesn’t really count for shit” is an entirely false statement.”

All character growth requires SOME characterisation. Character growth with interesting and subtle characterisation is GOOD, character growth with blatant and overly obvious characterisation is BAD so the mere presence of character growth BY ITSELF doesn’t matter in DECIDING whether a story is GOOD. Character growth CAN and DOES matter to the story.

“Fighting is in fact the point of most Superhero comics.”

Yes, but that doesn’t mean we need 85% fighting.

“characters are forced into the same behavior over and over, doing endless variations of the same themes.”

I think you are misinterpreting what is happening in Superhero comics. The status quo is not maintained in EVERY comic. Rather it is maintained over several years. As such we get several years of character growth and then things are put back to where they are. BUT we get the stories of that growth. However, (and this is what I mean by “character growth doesn’t really count for shit”) if that growth is expressed with BAD characterisation we get a BAD story and if the SAME growth is expressed with GOOD characterisation we get a GOOD story. THAT is why characterisation, and not character growth, counts.

“”The Boy Who Cried Wolf” is actually a good story.”

I didn’t say it was BAD. I SAID it was “fairly slight story” which is the same as YOU saying it was “a light story”. However, I disagree. I think it is a painfully obvious story. It may have a good MORAL, but that doesn’t make it a good story. Morally pleasing =/= aesthetically pleasing.

“Do we need to decompress it so we can see how the Wolf came into the area … Do we need to know of the generations of Liars that preceded the Boy?”

THAT isn’t characterisation. THAT’S just more plot. Characterisation tells us what characters FEEL, not what they DO.

“Do we need a lot of cute dialogue to really get the subtleties of what makes the Boy lie?”

We don’t need it but it would make for a better story.

“A good story tells us all the things that are important to the motives of the storyteller.”

I would say it depends on whether the storyteller thinks the right things are important.

“A haiku is a light poem, but some are as good as “The Illiad””

Yeah, but DBZ isn’t a haiku. If you took a truffle and spread it to the size of a cake and tasted it you would say “wow, this is so bland it is almost tasteless”. Light stories are bad if they are really LONG (or obvious, like The Boy Who Cried Wolf).

So what I’m saying is this big complaint these people have about DBZ being stagnant is a criticism that can apply to 90% of existing Superhero franchises that have lasted 10 years or more. I just think they are more forgiving of it when it comes to the properties they grew up because it ties into their own personal nostalgia.

But it’s not stagnant, they keep telling stories within the frame work.

The reason I brought this up in the first place was to explain why I don’t think it’s fair to use one anime episode as a unit of comparison to one American superhero comic book.

Much was when people rebuke a criticism of a comic they like because ‘you need to read all of them to understand it’ – it might be valid as there’s more to see than that single unit offered, BUT, if it gets released as a single unit, be it an issue or an episode, it’s fair to judge it as a single unit.

Are you talking about me? If so, can you be specific? What was I wrong about that I dodged?

I assumed it was at me, but I don’t care – I read your Dark Knight problems, and it reads like ‘It’s not my Batman’.
Such as the discussion the other day about how the love interest was totally wrong because she wasn’t hot enough for your tastes – your rebuttal to the points was that ‘he always dates model looking girls in the comics’.

Oh, and T, if you do stop cherrypicking the arguments you will and wont debate against, I’ll simplify my argument for you.

Point 1: DBZ has much more fighting than American Superhero comics (you never proved they had the same)
and

Why is the burden of proof on him? Why don’t you show that DBZ has more?

Point 2: Fighting doesn’t allow for GOOD characterisation (not just ANY characterisation) (and this has little to do with character growth)

Well, you can say that, but it’s pretty much bogus / out of your ass. Why would that be the case? Is there a compelling reason why Matt Murdock bickering with Foggy in a coffee shop allows for more or better characterization than two martial artists battling for their lives or their honor? There are a ton of such action/characterization moments in American media, for example, Tony Montana’s last hurrah in Scarface and, closer to home, Spider-Man lifting the Master Planner’s giant device. These moments are incredibly iconic and are widely thought to speak to the essence of the characters portrayed. Yet they are action “fighting” type scenes.

Therefore: DBZ has worse characterisation.

Refute that. C’mon, I dare you.

Are you serious? This is so childish.

T, sometimes you come off bad, but even when you’re being civil and making good points, you bring out the nastiest side of people.

T, sometimes you come off bad, but even when you’re being civil and making good points, you bring out the nastiest side of people.

Ergo, T is Christ-like.

Ergo, T is Christ-like.

Please, let’s take this to the sub-Newsarama level.

Or, have a sense of humour about comic book debates.

It’s more fun, and less sad that way.

I assumed it was at me, but I don’t care – I read your Dark Knight problems, and it reads like ‘It’s not my Batman’.
Such as the discussion the other day about how the love interest was totally wrong because she wasn’t hot enough for your tastes – your rebuttal to the points was that ‘he always dates model looking girls in the comics’.

That’s still not a “It’s not MY Batman” argument. That’s more of a “It’s not Batman AT ALL” argument.

I think of an “It’s not MY Batman” argument to mean, there is plenty of valid precedent for the action in an existing incarnation of the character, but because it’s not the incarnation I am particularly fond of, I don’t want to acknowledge it as valid. An example is people who say Brave and the Bold is not a valid Batman interpretation because he’s not dark and psychotic. This is an “It’s not MY Batman” argument because they are cherrypicking from his various incarnations throughout time and only counting as valid the incarnations THEY personally like. Now if the movie has Batman as a space alien garbageman, then that’s an “It’s not Batman AT ALL” issue, because that corresponds with no existing incarnation of Batman and the change is substantial.

Someone claimed I was shallow for criticizing the love interests looks and also claimed that the character of Bruce Wayne isn’t as shallow as me. In response, I pointed out that in no incarnation of Batman did he not date gorgeous women. Not in any of his comic eras, live action adaptations, cartoons, nothing. So if that made me shallow, that made Bruce Wayne the character shallow as well. Since this is something consistent across every single incarnation of Batman, it wasn’t an example of me cherrypicking a version of Batman I like, ignoring the versions that were inconsistent and then complaining “It’s not my Batman!” My point was that it’s not consistent with ANY Batman incarnation.

I don’t know if that passage makes any sense bcause I’m pretty tired right now, but there you go.

Okay, okay, Cass, I appreciate the sentiment, but honestly, I don’t take any of it personally, and I never mean any of it personally, it’s just spirited debate. I’m sure at the end of the day FGJ and Ted are both good, intelligent guys.

This place has a LONG way to go before approaching Newsarama levels!

I appreciate the sentiment, but honestly, I don’t take any of it personally, and I never mean any of it personally, it’s just spirited debate

I’m sorry for saying you had Christ like attributes.

I’m sure at the end of the day FGJ and Ted are both good, intelligent guys.

Ted is.

This place has a LONG way to go before approaching Newsarama levels!

BOOBZ!

Alright, respect Funky. I shouldn’t have taken your comment so defensively. Usually your posts make me laugh, but I guess not when they’re pointed at me. Gonna go read some Marvel Adventures and cool off. Cheers.

Usually your posts make me laugh, but I guess not when they’re pointed at me

Sorry – was only teasing!

@ Cass (and not T)

“Why is the burden of proof on him? Why don’t you show that DBZ has more?”

I’ll try and explain this slowly. FGJ said “DBZ was just entire episodes of people fighting.” T responded “85% of superhero comics are nothing but fighting AS WELL” (emphasis mine). Therefore, that DBZ has 85% fighting was (at least at that point) something we AGREED upon. Why would we argue about something we agree upon? FGJ made the claim DBZ is 85% fighting and IT WAS NEVER DISPUTED. T then made the claim Superhero comics are 85% fighting and I DISPUTED IT. Thus the burden of proof is on him. If YOU want to dispute that DBZ is 85% fighting THEN the burden would be on me, but T NEVER disputed it (although he probably should have). That’s why the burden of proof is on him.

“Is there a compelling reason why Matt Murdock bickering with Foggy in a coffee shop allows for more or better characterization than two martial artists battling for their lives or their honor?”

YES, cause in a coffee shop people can talk and small gestures can be made without worrying about tactical advantage. These things can happen in SOME fight scenes (so perhaps I was over extending my claim) but that can’t happen in DBZ fight scenes where the fighters are in the air 100s of feet apart. Then they need to yell and make big gestures.

“Tony Montana’s last hurrah in Scarface and, closer to home, Spider-Man lifting the Master Planner’s giant device.”

OK, sometimes fight scenes can have great characterisation, but A) “lifting the Master Planner’s giant device” isn’t really a fight scene, or its a fight scene but Spider-Man isn’t fighting he’s lifting and B) “Tony Montana’s last hurrah in Scarface” sure but that doesn’t take 85% of the movie. If you doubled its length you would add NO more characterisation. ANY fighting ISN’T an impediment to characterisation but TOO MUCH fighting IS.

“Are you serious? This is so childish.”

OK, so that was a bad moment, I was tired and somewhat frustrated. BUT DID YOU NOT SEE WHERE I SAID: “But THANK YOU for replying. And I mean that with all sincerity.” NO, because you IGNORED my reply to T, which is why was so frustrated. IF YOU HAD read my response then some of your questions would have been answered. (Like when I said “Because while characterisation can happen IN BATTLE I don’t think it really happens WHILE FIGHTING” and “The only moment that I can think of characterisation during fighting is when Wade (I think that’s his name) is knifefighting a German soldier, but HAD that fight gone on for another minute there would be NO more characterisation.”)

BUT NO, you chose to ignore me. So I am pretty bloodly frustrated, so I apologise if things get nasty. BUT IS IGNORING PEOPLE NOT RUDE? ARE YOU NOT as guilty as I? And in that case, isn’t it a little hypocritical to get down my throat?

BUT NO, you chose to ignore me. So I am pretty bloodly frustrated, so I apologise if things get nasty. BUT IS IGNORING PEOPLE NOT RUDE? ARE YOU NOT as guilty as I? And in that case, isn’t it a little hypocritical to get down my throat?

I’m very sorry, but the post I quoted was the last post from you appearing on the page at the time. Maybe my browser pulled the page up from history, or perhaps it was something else, as the comments section has been acting up for me a lot – it took hours before my “What I’m Reading” post appeared, even after refreshing the page it would not show up. In short, I was not intentionally ignoring you.

@ T

Sorry if I came off I bit badly. It was only because you said “why do you always dismiss my criticism with these ad hom attacks trying to psychoanalyze my motives?”. I agree that that happens to you and I agree that it is bad debate but I always try to debate your points, and its very hard when I get no response from you. I was just a little frustrated because this isn’t the first time that you’ve made a point and I’ve debated it and other have dismissed it and then you’re like “why is everyone dismissing me”. I’m not dismissing you T, I would never dismiss you.

I hope you know T that the only reason I get so frustrated with you is that you manage to be SO wrong and at the same time argue SO damn well. Never let it be said that all liberals just think all conservatives are unintelligent.

@ Funky

“Ted is.”

I’m sure you wouldn’t be saying that if you knew I was from Victoria.

@ Cass

“I’m very sorry, but the post I quoted was the last post from you appearing on the page at the time.”

Well then, I guess that’s OK. But at least be mindful that the Internet can obscure intent. I only meant the ‘dare’ as a friendly jibe, it wasn’t pistols at noon or anything.

Ted, it’s all good. Everyone in this thread is bff now

Ted, it’s all good. Everyone in this thread is bff now

Not me and Ted.

Not now that the truth is out.

Typical Queensland attitude. Or New South Wales, I’m not sure and it would make it much easier to insult you if I was certain. But, you know, either way still bad.

Go catch a tram!

wow… Ted managed to disagree with my points by agreeing with basic pov somehow… My head hurts….

I’m just waiting to see if the DBZ vs Superheroes debate becomes longer than the gays in comics debate.

@geekmobster

“My head hurts….”

I’m counting that as a win.

@FGJ

“Go catch a tram!”

Go watch some rugby!

But uh… We both win… cause when you disagreed with me you also expressed my underlying view of comics in general… so uhmmm we all get ice cream now right?

And you don’t win unless you mention Jeff Loeb.

“And you don’t win unless you mention Jeff Loeb.”

Good point.