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CSBG Archive

Comic Book Legends Revealed #218

Welcome to the two-hundred and eighteenth in a series of examinations of comic book legends and whether they are true or false. Click here for an archive of the previous two hundred and seventeen.

Comic Book Legends Revealed is now part of the larger Legends Revealed series, where I look into legends about the worlds of entertainment and sports, which you can check out here, at legendsrevealed.com. I’d especially recommend last week’s Movie Legends Revealed, which was an all-Tom Hanks edition of the column!

Let’s begin!

COMIC LEGEND: Thomas Nast came up with the idea of having the Democratic Party symbolized by a donkey.

STATUS: False

This type of situation comes up frequently – whoever is the most famous user of a particular style or idea often ends up getting the credit for ORIGINATING the idea, whether that is accurate or not. Thomas Nast is quite possibly the most famous editorial cartoonist in United States history, so he often gets credit where it is not due.

One such instance is the creation of the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party. This is actually even trickier, because if you say “who created the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party?” you’re basically saying, “Who POPULARIZED it,” in which case, yeah, the answer would be Thomas Nast. He popularized the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party.

That’s fair enough.

But he did not ORIGINATE the idea of using a donkey as the symbol for the Democratic Party. In fact, he was over thirty years late to get that honor!

That honor goes to a cartoonist whose name has been lost to history.

In a cartoon published in 1837, outgoing President Andrew Jackson is show trying to still lead the Democrats (his party) even though he is no longer President. The Democrats are symbolized by a donkey (which was basically an animal that Jackson had actually aligned his campaign with originally, as he viewed himself as stubborn as a mule, etc.).

The comic is titled “The Modern Balaam and his ass.”

This is in reference to the Bible story about Balaam who is kept from proceeding because he is stopped by the Angel (working on God’s behalf). Balaam’s donkey actually speaks to him, which is one of the extremely rare examples of an animal speaking in the Bible (by extremely rare, I think it’s one of, like, two animals who talk in the entire Bible). Here is a famous Rembrandt painting of the scene…

So as you can see, the donkey had already been shown to symbolize the Democratic Party decades before Nast came up with the notion in 1870.

In fact, Nast tried pushing the Fox as the symbol of the Democatic Party for awhile, but ended up on the donkey.

Here’s Nast’s first usage of the Donkey to stand for the Democrats – it is Nast complaining about Democrats talking smack about the recently deceased Former U.S. Attorney General, Former U.S. Secretary of War and then current Supreme Court Justice Edwin M. Stanton.

Since Nast was so popular, this cartoon DID lead to the Democrats being associated with the Donkey.

And Nast DID come up with the idea of associating the Republicans with Elephants, so he’s got that going for him!

COMIC LEGEND: Kraven’s Last Hunt was originally intended as a Batman story with the Joker.

STATUS: True

First off, I’ve been looking all over for it, but I can’t find the reader who suggested this one to me – I’d gladly thank them, I just can’t find the comment/e-mail/whichever that they sent to me to let me know about this one. So drop me a line if you’re the person who suggested this one! – BC

Towards the end of the 1980s, John Marc DeMatteis had an idea for a Wonder Man story, working with his half-brother, Grim Reaper. It did not work at Marvel, so DeMatteis re-configured the idea and it became an even better idea working it as a Batman/Joker story. What would happen if Joker actually killed Batman? Obviously, he did not mean ACTUALLY kill him, but what if the Joker honestly felt that he had killed Batman? What would he do next? How would he handle such a situation?

DeMatteis theorized that it would, in effect, turn the Joker “sane.”

So he pitched the idea to DC, but they ended up turning him down because they had other plans for the Joker.

So DeMatteis changed the piece another time, this time making Hugo Strange the villain of the piece.

This approach, too, was turned down.

Not wanting to let a good idea go to disuse, DeMatteis pitched the idea to Marvel, only now re-formulated to Spider-Man and the villain Kraven.

Thus, we got Kraven’s Last Hunt (with art by the amazing Mike Zeck), where we see what Kraven would do next if he ever actually “killed” Spider-Man (here’s a hint – it does not end well for Kraven).

The story, which Marvel cleverly spread out over all the three Spider-Man monthly books of the time (which gave the story a bit more of an “event” feel to it), was a big success, critically and commercially.

Well, sure enough, in the ensuing time between DeMatteis’ first pitch and the publication of Kraven’s Last Hunt, DC debuts a new comic book titled Legends of the Dark Knight. This book is where stories that wouldn’t necessarily fit in the regular books would go.

And wouldn’t you know it, with this new series going, in 1994, DC brings DeMatteis in to write the Batman/Joker story that he pitched to them some 6-7 years ago!!

The storyline, drawn by the great Joe Staton, is called Going Sane, and it is quite good, if a bit overlooked. That is, it was overlooked until just recently, when DC actually put it into a trade paperback collection!

Very sweet.

Thanks to reader Samuel for reminding me of the Wonder Man and Hugo Strange variations of the story. Apparently, the latest issue of Back Issue magazine (Michael Eury’s excellent comic history magazine) has a piece on this story, as well. I have not read it, but I’m sure it’s great – so it’s well worth checking out!

COMIC LEGEND: Jay Z named his comeback album Kingdom Come in honor of Superman’s “comeback” in the Elseworlds mini-series, Kingdom Come.

STATUS: True

In 2003, Jay-Z seemed to “retire,” if not from rap itself (as that was not going to happen, obviously), at least perhaps from using the name Jay-Z, as there were murmors that his “comeback” album in 2006 would be released under his real name, Shaun Carter.

When the album came out, though, it was under the name Jay-Z.

However, the name of the ALBUM is even more curious. The term “Kingdom Come” is a popular one, as it comes from a very popular prayer. But could it have something to do with DC’s 1995 smash hit Elseworlds mini-series, set in the future where SUPERMAN effectively makes a “comeback” to superheroing?

As a matter of fact, it did!

Here’s Mark Waid, the writer of Kingdom Come (alongside artist Alex Ross), explaining the situation in a great guest spot Waid did as a Guest DJ at KCRW’s awesome “Guest DJ Project” (where celebrities come in and play 5 songs that mean something to them and discuss the five songs). I’ve linked to this Project a couple of times before in the past, and it’s well worth checking out, if only to see (like I do) which celebrities pick Dylan songs (thanks, Sam Mendes!).

In any event, here, from Mark Waid’s Guest DJ transcript (you can read the whole thing here), is the situation explained…

In 1996, artist Alex Ross and I worked together on this graphic novel called “Kingdom Come” for DC Comics, which got a lot of attention. It’s a story about what happens when Superman retires then is drawn back out of retirement by this next generation of superheroes who have gone awry because they don’t have that North Star. They don’t have that…he didn’t realize what an inspiration he was to them and what a guiding force he was to them. He retires and then everything in the world just goes hilt, and he’s got to come back. So, a couple years ago, Jay Z, he’s been running Def Jam for a while, and he’s thinking about coming back into the studio and doing something new, and his engineer gives him a copy of Kingdom Come and he sees such a parallel between himself and Superman in the sense of ‘I’ve been away, I’m not sure I like the way things have gone in my absence, I’m coming back’ that he based the comeback album on this graphic novel. The title song talks about Superman, Bruce Wayne, and comics in general and that’s what I call a career highlight.

That about explains that, no?

Pretty cool stuff.

Thanks to Mark Waid for the explanation and thanks to KRCW for doing their awesome Guest DJ Project!

Okay, that’s it for this week!

Thanks to Brandon Hanvey for the Comic Book Legends Revealed logo!

Feel free (heck, I implore you!) to write in with your suggestions for future installments! My e-mail address is cronb01@aol.com.

As you likely know by now, at the end of April, my book finally came out!

Here is the cover by artist Mickey Duzyj. I think he did a very nice job (click to enlarge)…

If you’d like to order it, you can use the following code if you’d like to send me a bit of a referral fee…

Was Superman a Spy?: And Other Comic Book Legends Revealed

See you next week!

76 Comments

My.

Jay Z certainly thinks a lot of himself, doesn’t he?

Jay-Z has nicknamed himself [Je] Hova. So, yes, he does.

Rappers are generally supposed to think a lot of themselves.

Kevin T. Brown

July 31, 2009 at 5:33 am

Brian, I love all the “Legends Revealed” (well, maybe not the ballroom dancing one), but when are you going to add to the sports? It’s been nearly 6 weeks since any updates.

God, that is a bad cover.

…I’m not gonna tell you which one! :)

//\Oo/\\

Shawn Carter to Jay-Z? Damn, he’s on Jaz’ dick.

It makes sense a rapper would see himself in Superman in Kingdom Come, given how outrageously narcissistic and self-absorbed he was in the story. :D

The serpent in Eden is the other talking animal in the Bible, but I’m not sure if he even counts. I always hated the way the writers of the Bible portrayed Balaam. He was just doing what God told him to do, yet they write him as a complete scumbag. The story makes very little sense, and it annoys me. (Well, I guess if I was a Biblical scholar it would make sense, but I’m not, so it doesn’t.)

Okay, so the political cartoon up there with the elephant and the donkey dressed as a lion…does anyone know what that’s actually supposed to mean? I mean, I see the words written on things, but I don’t understand how they connect. What is the cartoon saying?

Going Sane is a great Joker story! I wasn’t even reading Bats at the time and I hunted those issues down. JM hardly ever fails to disappoint! :D

Jay-Z ‘retired’ as a solo-artist. He was president of Def Jam records during the time and saw more of a background role for himself with an occasional guest appearance on records by artists under his tutelage or friends. So ‘Kingdom Come’ was his comeback album as a solo-artist.

Two quotes from the title track:

I take off the blazer, loosen up the tie
Step inside the booth, Superman is alive

The Bruce Wayne of the game, have no fear
When you need me just throw your ROC signs in the air, yeah!

J to the AAP, don;t believe the hype. Jay-Z never really retired. Rappers NEVER do. It was a publicity stunt. Rappers have been doing publicity stunt “retirements” since the mid-90s, I believe Too Short was the first to start the trend. I can’t believe my fellow hip-hop fans still take them at face value.

To put it in perspective, at the time Jay-Z “retired,” HE STILL HAD A COMMITMENT ON HIS CONTRACT TO DO MORE ALBUMS FOR DEF JAM!

“Kraven’s Last Hunt” was, to an 8-year-old me, the most shocking story I’d ever read. I recently re-read it for the first time, and even though it’s slightly dated it still holds up.

Coincidentally, I’ve just finished “Going Sane” (local library got a load of new TPBs in), and although I enjoyed it it did remind me of “KLH” in parts. Never knew the connection…

“…Jay-Z never really retired. Rappers NEVER do. It was a publicity stunt. Rappers have been doing publicity stunt “retirements” since the mid-90s, I believe Too Short was the first to start the trend. I can’t believe my fellow hip-hop fans still take them at face value.”

Mid-90′s, publicity stunt, happens all the time…has a strong parallel to superhero deaths, no? Now, if someone else takes the Jay-Z mantle for a while when he retires, I will be impressed.

I keep hearing great things about Going Sane. Was it ever collected?

Mid-90’s, publicity stunt, happens all the time…has a strong parallel to superhero deaths, no?

BRILLIANT observation there Brian. It really is the hip-hop equivalent of the superhero death. Both started in the mid-90s, hit critical mass for a bit, then people became jaded when all the dead/retired came back, now most of fandom is too jaded to take them seriously, with the exception of a handful of fans who still seem to take everything announced at face value.

Now I’m trying to think of what the hip-hop equivalent of the gimmick foil cover is?

Mark Waid should show Jay-Z that Fantastic Four scene with the guys doing the rap for The Thing.

“Now I’m trying to think of what the hip-hop equivalent of the gimmick foil cover is?”

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/8b/Silkk_The_Shocker_-_Made_Man.jpg

or any of those no limit albums, really

The Joker/Batman story was the second time DeMatteis tried to use that story idea. He pitched it to Marvel earlier as a Wonder Man limited series with Wonder Man and the Grim Reaper.

Rembrandt’s Balaam looks surprisingly like Andrew Jackson!

Fun fact: In 1824 Jackson won pluralities in both the popular vote and the electoral college but did not become president! Since no one won a majority of the electoral vote, it fell to the House to select the president; John Q. Adams was chosen. Everybody should check out The United States Constitution: A Graphic Adaptation by Jonathan Hennessey, Aaron McConnell, Steve Lieber, and others!

There’s a really good interview with DeMatteis and Zeck in the latest Back Issue magazine (came out last week) about KLH. Good stuff!

No need to ‘school’ me T. I didn’t put those ‘ ‘ around the word retirement for show. I was just stating the reason Jay-Z himself mentioned for the ‘retirement’ as oppposed to the reason Brian mentioned in his article which is mostly based on rumors.

As for the rap equivalent of the holofoil cover, how about grills?

The new issue of “Back Issue” that came out last week goes over all the Kraven’s Last Hunt stuff and all the original proposals and ideas. Surprised its so topical to this week’s column and no fans mentioned it yet. Great magazine by the way!

Whoops Sterg didnt see yours!! :)

Great post about the link between Spiderman’s KLH and Batman’s GS. Both stories were really top notch and were tailored perfectly to suit their respective leads. To this day I still can’t read either one without tearing up. KLH was to my mind proof that at least some writers understood how to tell darker stories without being near parodies. And GS was proof that DeMateis totally understood both Batman and the Joker.

You could devote an entire column to all the re-worked pitches that ended up getting published:

KLH
End League
Wanted
that captain atom one with the red and white guy, can’t think of the name

What else?

My bad, J to the AAP. Apologies.

“… if you say “who created the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party?” you’re basically saying, “Who POPULARIZED it,””

Uh no I’m not. Creating something is to be the one to originate something because that would be the original appearance. Hence “create”. Very strange distinction to make that doesn’t seem accurate at all.

The rest of it is the usual awesomeness. Never knew that about Kraven’s Last Hunt.

In terms of thinking rappers thinking highly of themselves Jay-z has nothing on P. Diddy.

Had JM DeMatteis used the pitch for Batman in the first place, who would have taken the Vermin role? And who gets it in “Going Sane”?

If there isn’t an official answer, I’d suggest Killer Croc.

[...] In the latest installment of Comic Book Legends Revealed, Brian Cronin digs deep to discover that the use of the donkey originated over thirty years earlier. [...]

[...] In the latest installment of Comic Book Legends Revealed, Brian Cronin digs deep to discover that the use of the donkey originated over thirty years earlier. [...]

OKay, I see now “Going Sane” was collected after rereading the article. Is it standalone or in trade with other stories?

I figure the rap equivalent to limited covers would be albums with bonus tracks sold only at a select retailer.

That red and white guy was called breach, and he got a nod in Infinite Crisis as being the Captain Atom of Earth 8 I think, the same one Kyle would have been GL of and Helena Bertinelli would’ve been it’s Huntress.

Kraven’s Last Hunt was an awesome story and one of the best moments in Spiderman history, certainly better than the current goings on. Dear God, ASM #600 sucked! Seriously Doc Oct could not have been less threatening as a flying cocoon. anyway i digress, JMD is a good writer. JayZ doesn’t photograph well and should not stick his ugly face on the cover of his album. I don’t like rappers period, comic book fans or not, I think they are all morons.

Alan Lauderdale

July 31, 2009 at 11:59 am

I think the donkey cartoons demonstrate how important it is that copyright does not apply to ideas and that the notion of originality of an idea is an iffy proposition. The point is that the anonymous cartoonist was interested in linking Jackson to Balaam and everything else in the allegory is just filled in. Looking at the resulting drawing, you can find the ass matched to the Democratic Party but it reads as a secondary notion, and not one that led to any followup identification for thirty years. (Right?)

With the Nash cartoon, the identification of the Democrats with the ass is the primary focus of the drawing and I think the reference is to another old story (Aesop fable?) in which an ass tries to use a lion skin to persuade other animals that the ass is as regal as anybody. Anyway, because I read the Nash drawing as having more resonance with populist Democrats, I would give more origination credit to his drawing than to the anonymous one.

Honestly I don’t see jayz as the super man of rap..he’s more of the tony stark of rap..in the sense of stark enterprise(stark enterprise is Roc-a-fella and war machine is beanie sigel?)..I know ghostface took the tony stark mantle but jus look at it like that for a sec people Lol

Yo jay z duz think really high of himself and he don’t seem humble @ all.

Norman Osborn would be like 50 cent right? Or mayb Lil wayne seeing that wayne got hiphop in the DARK REIG..two things I love..marvel comics and hiphop..they jus go to together like PBnJ sandwiches…Oooowwww …can someone plz tell Marvel to do another Blue Marvel and Darkhawk story plzzzzzzz :-(

I’m curious; Was Kraven the first super villain suicide?

Was this before or after Obadiah Stane repulsored his own head off?

“Mark Waid should show Jay-Z that Fantastic Four scene with the guys doing the rap for The Thing.”

I really hope he does. Even if he might be risking his life.

Kraven’s last hunt was terrible.

Stane got there before Kraven. But was he the first?

Now, I saw an episode of “The Batman” from a couple of years ago where Joker poisons Bruce with laughing gas as then attempts to take the Bat mantle. Was it influenced by Going Sane, was it an adaptation, or was it a coincidence?

“I don’t like rappers period, comic book fans or not, I think they are all morons.”

I was wondering when one of these guys would show up. You can’t have a comic discussion that mentions a rapper without having some. I’m not a professional rapper, but I can still tell you that we are not all out to pimp your wife or steal your car.

Mike Loughlin

July 31, 2009 at 1:00 pm

“Kraven’s Last Hunt” was awesome. Great art, excellent characterization, real suspense, fully-realized tone and atmosphere. It’s such ana anomaly, one of the only two “dark” Spider-Man story that’s actually good. (The other one is “Death of Jean DeWolfe.”)

The rap equivalent of gimmick covers? How about the whole “bling” era of rap? The emphasis was on materialism, with very little substance.

Not that it’s particularly relevant here, but the story of Balaam and his ass gets mentioned in Mark Twain’s The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, also. Just in case anyone was interested in reading a book without pictures… :)

I read the KLH was a Wonder Man pitch, which he later pitched as a Batman story, finally MArvel bit it as a Spider-Man book.

No joke I would of loved to have read the wonderman and reaper book.

Im reading lethal legion and that writer makes wonder man look badass.

And brad curran..

Why would he be risking his life?

Ima a rapper/mc and im cool wit a lot of nerds and weird highclass folks(if your not in that dept.im sorry if I classed u and you are your stiil cool bro)don’t be scared of us lol

Youtube.com/PSwetheBEST
Youtube.com/Eldantico

Has Kraven’s last hunt been reprinted with the original colouring ? My Hardcover copy has some awful new colouring that’s nowehere near the original

“I don’t like rappers period, comic book fans or not, I think they are all morons.”

Comic book fan or not, that’s just an ignorant thing to say.

I’d say Jake Fury as Scorpio shooting himself in Defenders v.1 #50 would be the first supervillain suicide I can recall.

And brad curran..

Why would he be risking his life?

Ima a rapper/mc and im cool wit a lot of nerds and weird highclass folks(if your not in that dept.im sorry if I classed u and you are your stiil cool bro)don’t be scared of us lol

In defense of Brad Curran, I’m a hip-hop fan not inclined to violence and even I felt driven to beat Waid over the head over that horrible Fantastic Four “Clobbering Time” rap. SO BAD.

I think the donkey cartoons demonstrate how important it is that copyright does not apply to ideas and that the notion of originality of an idea is an iffy proposition. The point is that the anonymous cartoonist was interested in linking Jackson to Balaam and everything else in the allegory is just filled in. Looking at the resulting drawing, you can find the ass matched to the Democratic Party but it reads as a secondary notion, and not one that led to any followup identification for thirty years. (Right?)

With the Nash cartoon, the identification of the Democrats with the ass is the primary focus of the drawing and I think the reference is to another old story (Aesop fable?) in which an ass tries to use a lion skin to persuade other animals that the ass is as regal as anybody. Anyway, because I read the Nash drawing as having more resonance with populist Democrats, I would give more origination credit to his drawing than to the anonymous one.

I absolutely agree, Alan, that Nast deserves a ton of credit for what he did with the Donkey idea – he clearly popularized the idea and if it were not for Nast, it would not be used today. I’m just speaking to idea that Nast was the first one to use Donkeys as the symbol of the Democratic Party (which I’m sure you’ve seen written more than a few times over the years), and that’s what I’m disputing here.

Lmao about the thing and the rappin

I didn’t even notice this quote till now tho…what was it?…
“I don’t like rapper period..comic book fans or not I think there all morons”

WTF??? More then likely a rapper that gets lucky enough to make it out the HOOD(and I don’t mean the crimson cowell)and become famous is a lot more likely to open jobs and checkbooks then any other musik exc. or artist..Jobs for less fortunate people or help in communities i.e. Jayz hurricane katrina. The comment made by w/e idiot was totally irrelavant to the topic soooo he sound like what we call in the hiphop community a “HATER”..don’t hate bcuz JAYZ or cats like myself been granted a god giving ability to verbalize words and make um poetic songs or jus musik to relax your ears. REAL HIPHOP…not your laffytafy dance chorus garbage that your grandma can remember.

I think if u got a tribe called quest, the lox, jay z and nas together on a lp that would be like the entire Avengers in a TPB..amazing!

>>In terms of thinking rappers thinking highly of themselves Jay-z has nothing on P. Diddy.

Which would make, let’s see, the ridiculous Mark Millar the P Diddy of comics …

(Whereas Frank Miller would be the equivalent of any number of fill-in-the-blank misogynistic rappers. And I’m sure there’s at least one rapper out there bug-eatingly insane enough to be comparable to Dave Sim, but I haven’t really paid a lot of attention to that field since Public Enemy’s heyday.)

“… if you say “who created the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party?” you’re basically saying, “Who POPULARIZED it,””

Uh no I’m not. Creating something is to be the one to originate something because that would be the original appearance. Hence “create”. Very strange distinction to make that doesn’t seem accurate at all.

There’s a difference between creating THE symbol of a party and creating A symbol for a party. I could draw (not very well) a cartoon now with the Dems represented by a cow, that wouldn’t make a cow the symbol for the Dems. The original cartoonist was the first to represent the Dems as a donkey, Nast was the one who made the donkey the Dems’ symbol.

Oh wait, now I think I understand what he’s trying to say. He’s saying that if you ask this question (“Who created it?”), then the answer you expect is actually the answer to this other question (“Who popularized it?”)

Weird phrasing.

Thanks Ted.

I guess the question is sort of like “Who discovered America?”

Most people will automatically say Christopher Columbus, but he what about Leif Ericson, or the Indians who really discovered it by way of land migration, or any of the other theories put forth about early cultures navigating their way their by primitive means, or that Columbus only discovered Hispaniola and not the Americas exactly and that John Cabot was the first to visit the continental Americas in that era, etc, etc, etc. Someone did it before, but then it was sort of lost to the annals of history until someone finally did it in such a way that was popularized and made more widely known and accepted.

Nonsense posted by o.t.o.:

The comment made by w/e idiot was totally irrelavant to the topic soooo he sound like what we call in the hiphop community a “HATER”..don’t hate bcuz JAYZ or cats like myself been granted a god giving ability to verbalize words and make um poetic songs or jus musik to relax your ears. REAL HIPHOP…not your laffytafy dance chorus garbage that your grandma can remember.
———————
Ah, yes. Because someone dislikes a form of music, he’s described as a “hater”. I’ve got news for you, pal: Most rap IS garbage (Sturgeon’s Law applies to rap as it does every other form of art). I find it incredible that you write about how you “verbalize words” yet you seem absolutely incapable of writing a coherent sentence. (Might I rhetorically inquire what else you would “verbalize”? The word itself is defined as “to speak or write verbosely” and “to express something in words”.) Also, it’s “god-GIVEN”, not “god-giving”, for God’s sake (pun just slightly intended); the phrase means that the talent originates FROM God (that is, it’s “given” by God). And “to relax your ears”? What the f—? How in the world do one’s ears “relax”?
What is it about rap/hiphop fans that they feel this need to call other people “haters” because of a difference in musical taste? (Of course, I’ve read plenty of comments at music blogs where someone who criticizes an artist is derided as a “hater”, no matter the astuteness of the criticism. Of course, that commenter tends to get a bit miffed when he’s called a “hater” when he criticizes someone else’s favorite artist/s.) If I don’t like Jay-Z’s music (for lack of a better term), then so what? I happen to like a wide variety of music, including some rap and hiphop but I have very little interest in Jay-Z.
I notice in the section of your little diatribe that I quoted, you have described yourself as a “hater” (“REAL HIPHOP…not your laffytafy dance chorus garbage that your grandma can remember.”) Who are you to determine what is and is not “real” hiphop? And why shouldn’t one’s “grandma” be able to “remember” a song? Do you feel that way about your own grandma? (If so, I feel truly sorry for her.) Also, it is funny how so much rap and hiphop gets played in “dance” clubs (where I truly doubt the clubgoers are paying much attention to the words) when you “hate” that “dance chorus garbage”.

Philip Ayres: Yes it has but you’re going to have to look for an older copy of the trade. Anything available now will have the new colours. If you can grab a used copy, go for it.

JosephW, interesting how you jump down o.t.o.’s throught, yet say nothing towards Danny.

Furthermore, if you had actually READ what Danny said (which was quoted by o.t.o) you would have seen that Danny said “I think there all morons” (yes, I know it’s ‘they’re’). Danny did not just call them bad musicians, he called them MORONS. THAT is the reason why he is a ‘hater’, not because of his taste in music.

I, for one, would much rather o.t.o.’s “nonsense”, which actually manages to say something, than your well written response that fails to really respond to anything, as you were more worried about how o.t.o. spoke rather than what he said. But I guess I should expect that from someone who clearly favours FORM over CONTENT.

hey brian im pretty sure that this isn’t an urban legend but you might be able to spin it in an interesting way. Rick Remender (of Fear Agent, and Punisher fame) Illistrated the interior of the Lagwagon album “Live in a Dive” if you are interested i can scan in some of the art for you. I just thought that you would be interested in something like that.

what went wrong with modern comics. I dont think we have enough donkeys in comics anymore!

Brian from Canada

August 1, 2009 at 5:14 pm

Hey Deadpool: do we have ANY donkeys in comics at the moment?

Jay retired in 03 (The Death of Superman), in the following years, Kanye West took over as the selling-est hip-hop artist. Jay came back in 06, albeit kinda lamely (The Return of Superman). Now, I like to think of Kanye West as Superboy in this scenario.

I don’t know if there are any donkeys in comics right now, but there are plenty of jackasses. (Has that ever not been the case?)

Strange -
over the past 15 years I’ve only kept a few Marvel comics, while keeping all my DC collection. Somehow DC stuff just seems to age better.

The only Spiderman stuff I’ve kept except for the Ditko material, a couple of the great single issue Sandman character stories from the 70′s is Kraven’s Last Hunt. For me it stood way above anything else to do with the web-crawler. Now I know why.

Salut!

I also loved KLH back in the day, it was great stuff IMO. Another Mike Zeck drawn classic…was this before or after he did the Punisher mini-series?

American Hawkman

August 3, 2009 at 2:08 pm

Kraven’s Last Hunt as a Batman/Hugo Strange story is the one I give the most credence to, since it builds logically off of Hugo’s appearances in the Englehart and Monech runs in Detective Comics/Batman.

It should also be noted that DeMatties has stated his original pitch for the Spider-Man arc The Child Within that re-villainized Harry Osborn and, ultimately, led to his death, was ALSO first pitched as a Batman story. When DeMatties gets shot down on Batman pitches, he apparently immediately reworks them as Spider-Man stories. :)

FunkyGreenJerusalem

August 4, 2009 at 9:36 pm

The storyline, drawn by the great Joe Staton, is called Going Sane, and it is quite good, if a bit overlooked. That is, it was overlooked until just recently, when DC actually put it into a trade paperback collection!

I got that!

Nice art, interesting story, horrific colouring – my memories from the 90′s of Digital Chameleon were good, but it hasn’t held up.
BUT, what the heck is the other story they threw in too beef up the trade?
Terrible, terrible Bart Sears art (how is he popular???) and a story that was dreck.
I think I got… three, maybe four pages in.

If Jay-Z thinks his “retirement” is what caused the downfall of hip-hop, then he’s a bigger idiot then I thought. Not only is he NOT the best rapper around, he’s not even the best rapper named Jay-Z.

Kraven’s Last Hunt was “cleverly” spread out over the spider-books. Why, then, even have separate books? I hate that sort of cross-over. The Other is guilty too, and The Messah Complex. Plain old tie-ins give just as much of a universe feel without the annoyance.

But Kraven’s Last Hunt was pure brilliance and Going Sane was good too; they’re very different from each other.

I’m sure Jay-Z is piggybacking off comics… like the film industry is now doing. Directors have people dig through comics for ideas. Hell there’s even a rapper named MF Doom….He wears the mask just like Dr. Doom…it is what it is…

[…] a story that was originally going to star Batman and the Joker (see this Comic Book Legends Revealed installment for more information), this sure did turn out to be a great Spider-Man story, […]

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